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Friday, September 14, 2012

Keidel: Derek Jeter The Greatest Yankee Ever? He’s Not Even In The Top Five

Francesspool just whizzed through a piperazine, cover to cover…just to stay awake for this!

With his superlative and suspicious season (according to Skip Bayless), Derek Jeter is climbing the rungs of history. His latest feat, passing Willie Mays on the hit list, has placed him closer to the Mt. Rushmore of Yankees, if not immortals.

And it seems each show on WFAN doubles as a symposium on Jeter’s place in Yankees history, if not immortals.

This is where the debate becomes dubious. For all his splendor, clutch hits, catches and throws, Jeter has the serendipity of doing it as a Yankee and the misfortune of doing it as a Yankee. Had Jeter done this for any other team he’d be the best player in franchise history. But as a Yankee, I’m sorry to say he’s not among the top five pinstriped deities.

...Jeter has his 3,000 hits, a .300 average, a gold glove or two, five rings and a partridge in a pear tree. But he’s NOT BABE RUTH. He’s NOT LOU GEHRIG. He’s NOT JOE DIMAGGIO. He’s NOT MICKEY MANTLE.

What do those men have in common, sans Jeter? They dominated their sport. Jeter never even won an MVP, nor did he even finish second in the voting.

...And stop putting us pundits, writers, reporters, columnists and commentators in the eternally awkward position of picking at Jeter. It should be enough that he’s an immortal, his bronze bust assured five years to the second after he retires, both in the Bronx and Cooperstown, his number retired from Monument to Yellowstone Park.

If you want those of us who eulogized Jeter last year to apologize, you got it. I’m sorry. But to bend the other way and embalm the man in faerie dust is equally misguided. He’s human. I shook the man’s hand. And unlike Mr. Bayless, I never questioned the ingredients in Jeter’s newfound fountain of youth. He’s just that great. But just not the greatest.

Repoz Posted: September 14, 2012 at 06:34 PM | 72 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, yankees

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   1. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 14, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4236209)
Um, Mr. Keidel, Jeter finished 2nd in the 2006 voting, to Morneau. No, that isn't an argument that Jeter belongs on the list, but, mistakes am mistakes.
   2. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 14, 2012 at 06:50 PM (#4236210)
OK, I apologize, that was an exchange on Facebook that I sort of re-created.

I like Keidel's list of 5, actually.
   3. Repoz Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4236213)
~zing~
   4. The District Attorney Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4236214)
he’s NOT BABE RUTH. He’s NOT LOU GEHRIG. He’s NOT JOE DIMAGGIO. He’s NOT MICKEY MANTLE.
True, but that's only four. Who else has he got? Let's read TFA!
The best, most important Yankee since Ruth is indeed still playing. He just happens to pitch. Yes, Mariano Rivera is the No. 2 all-time Yankee.

1) Ruth

2) Rivera
Oh boy.
   5. Danny Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:04 PM (#4236217)
Yogi > Jetes
   6. AROM Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4236218)
Yup Danny. Count the Ringzzz.
   7. Joe OBrien Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4236219)
Had Jeter done this for any other team he’d be the best player in franchise history.


It's bad form to put something so obviously wrong in a piece attacking other people for being obviously wrong.
   8. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4236224)
Repoz, I liked his list, generally, (I'm no expert) but I thought his accusing you of using bad grammar was funny. So defensive!
   9. Bourbon Samurai Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4236225)
I would imagine Jeter would have a shot at the being the best player on a number of teams. I mean, obviously not the Tigers, A's, Cardinals, Reds, but if he'd been say, a Padre, would he be the best Padre?
   10. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4236226)
Gwynn?

edit...and Phil Plantier.
   11. Tripon Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:24 PM (#4236227)
District Attorney: The best relief/closer ever is not a better player than a SS that is probably not a top ten SS all time?
   12. The District Attorney Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:26 PM (#4236229)
District Attorney: The best relief/closer ever is not a better player than a SS that is probably not a top ten SS all time?
Correct.

(Also is not better than "LOU GEHRIG", "JOE DIMAGGIO" or "MICKEY MANTLE".)
   13. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4236231)
Keidel: Derek Jeter The Greatest Yankee Ever? He’s Not Even…

I assumed the abbreviated Newsstand headline just degenerated into mumbling profanity, and I understood completely.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:34 PM (#4236232)
You can't be wronger than saying Rivera is better than Mantle, Gehrig and DiMaggio.

I'm not sure Rivera was a more valuable Yankee than Bernie Williams.
   15. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:35 PM (#4236233)
It's not much of a criticism to be not as good as Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle or DiMaggio. Ranking Rivera ahead of Jeter is a stretch though.

Jeter is almost a lock to finish with the most hits by a right-handed American League hitter (passing Molitor, 3319) and the most hits while primarily playing SS (passing Wagner, 3420), while even having a decent shot at the most hits for one team (passing Cobb, 3900). No one has won more World Series under the three-tiered playoff format than Jeter. It really isn't whether you take someone off the Yankee's Mt. Rushmore, it's whether you add a 5th.
   16. MikeTorrez Posted: September 14, 2012 at 07:44 PM (#4236235)
According to Fangraphs WAR, Jeter is #5: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=1901&ind=0&team=9&rost=0&age=0&filter;=&players=0
   17. BDC Posted: September 14, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4236256)
By WAR, the top ten Yankees are Ruth 138, Gehrig 109, Mantle 106, DiMaggio 75, Jeter 70, Berra 56, Rivera 53, Dickey 52, Randolph 52, and AROD 51. Let's suppose that WAR has trouble ranking catchers and pitchers, especially relievers, and so put Berra ahead of Jeter, maybe drop Rivera and AROD from the top 10 in favor of Whitey Ford (50.6 compared to AROD's 50.7 as a Yankee) and possibly even Ron Guidry (45). It's still pretty hard to get Jeter lower than sixth, and indeed even thinking about it offhand, that's where most people would rank him. Bill Dickey was a hell of a player, but Jeter has nearly 5,000 more plate appearances than Dickey.
   18. Scott Ross Posted: September 14, 2012 at 08:44 PM (#4236260)
Among the top 11 Yankees in career WAR, Jeter is 10th in WAR/PA.
   19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 14, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4236269)
By WAR, the top ten Yankees are Ruth 138, Gehrig 109, Mantle 106, DiMaggio 75, Jeter 70, Berra 56, Rivera 53, Dickey 52, Randolph 52, and AROD 51. Let's suppose that WAR has trouble ranking catchers and pitchers, especially relievers, and so put Berra ahead of Jeter, maybe drop Rivera and AROD from the top 10 in favor of Whitey Ford (50.6 compared to AROD's 50.7 as a Yankee) and possibly even Ron Guidry (45). It's still pretty hard to get Jeter lower than sixth, and indeed even thinking about it offhand, that's where most people would rank him. Bill Dickey was a hell of a player, but Jeter has nearly 5,000 more plate appearances than Dickey.

6th for Jeter seems right.

I'd put Berra clearly ahead. bWAR is only giving him 30 runs career in fielding, and I think you have to give him a lot of credit for managing the pitching staffs on all those WS winning teams.

   20. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 14, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4236270)
If you go by Offensive WAR, Jeter is 4th in Yankee history:

Rank Player Offensive WAR
1. Babe Ruth 131.0
2. Mickey Mantle. 111.9
3. Lou Gehrig. 108.3
4. Derek Jeter. 91.6
5. Joe DiMaggio 70.3
6. Bernie Williams 59.5
7. Yogi Berra. 53.3
8. Bill Dickey. 50.4
9. Alex Rodriguez 48.4
10. Tony Lazzeri 45.1

Good chance of breaking 100.
   21. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:00 PM (#4236272)
...And stop putting us pundits, writers, reporters, columnists and commentators in the eternally awkward position of picking at Jeter.


Nobody is putting you in this position, except you. If you really think that people can't figure out for themselves that Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, and DiMaggio were better players than Jeter, that's your problem, not ours.

BTW, Jeter just passed Mays on the hit list.
   22. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4236274)
By WAR, the top ten Yankees are Ruth 138, Gehrig 109, Mantle 106, DiMaggio 75, Jeter 70, Berra 56, Rivera 53, Dickey 52, Randolph 52, and AROD 51. Let's suppose that WAR has trouble ranking catchers and pitchers, especially relievers, and so put Berra ahead of Jeter, maybe drop Rivera and AROD from the top 10 in favor of Whitey Ford (50.6 compared to AROD's 50.7 as a Yankee) and possibly even Ron Guidry (45). It's still pretty hard to get Jeter lower than sixth, and indeed even thinking about it offhand, that's where most people would rank him. Bill Dickey was a hell of a player, but Jeter has nearly 5,000 more plate appearances than Dickey.

Thanks for saving me the effort. Jeter in the #6 spot right below Berra is just about right. Rivera is obviously better at what he does than Jeter, but what Rivera does isn't nearly as important.
   23. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 14, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4236279)
I have Jeter as the Yanks 4th best player as well. He's had a remarkable career. I normally favor peak over career, but I'm not a fascist about it.
   24. Repoz Posted: September 14, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4236301)
Repoz, I liked his list, generally, (I'm no expert) but I thought his accusing you of using bad grammar was funny. So defensive!

Yeah, he always laughably feels he's the Yankee rebel. It am what it am.
   25. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4236307)
I would imagine Jeter would have a shot at the being the best player on a number of teams. I mean, obviously not the Tigers, A's, Cardinals, Reds, but if he'd been say, a Padre, would he be the best Padre?


Playing time for the team/franchise, only.

AL East:
Baltimore - Yes
Toronto - Yes
Tampa - Yes
NY - No (Ruth)
Boston - No (Williams)

AL Central:
Chicago - Yes
Detroit - No (Cobb)
KC - Maybe? (Brett)
Cleveland - Yes
Minnesota - No (Johnson)

AL West:
Texas - Yes
Oakland - Yes
Los Angeles - Yes
Seattle - Yes

NL East:
Washington - Yes
Atlanta - No (Aaron)
Philadelphia - No (Schmidt)
New York - Yes
Miami - Yes

NL Central:
Cincinnati - Yes
St. Louis - No (Musial)
Pittsburgh - No (Wagner)
Milwaukee - Yes
Chicago - Yes
Houston - Yes

NL West:
San Francisco - No (Mays)
Los Angeles - Yes
Arizona - Yes
San Diego - Yes
Colorado - Yes

I figure there are other better players that PLAYED for some teams, but because they played on multiple teams, their value was split (like F.Robinson, R.Henderson).
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4236316)
What's amazing about #25 is that it's not that far off, in spite of the fact that there are scores of other players besides those named with better peaks than Jeter's.

But even if you're going strictly on career value, and only counting the years a player spent with the team in question, you'd still be hard pressed to pick Jeter over either Ripken, Brett, or Rose, or arguably Speaker for his Indians' career alone.
   27. Walt Davis Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4236318)
Baltimore -- No (Ripken for sure, possibly Palmer and Brooks*)
White Sox -- No (Thomas ... Jeter can't make up that peak gap)
Cleveland -- No (Speaker played half his career elsewhere but still put up 71 WAR for the Indians; also Feller)
Texas -- who is the greatest Ranger? Toby Harrah?
Oakland -- maybe but only because the A's have always been owned by cheapskates. Foxx has a case based on peak over career
Seattle -- Jeter -8.4 dWAR; Edgar -9.8 (one of my new favorite factoids)

Washington -- sure but only because Rizzo has shut down Strasburg
Mets -- c'mon, your average park league softball team has a better player than the Mets
Miami -- for now, but Giancarlo will crush Jeter like a Chris Volstad hanging breaking ball
Cincinatti -- Mr. Rose would like a word with you and Morgan was the Speaker of his day
Milwaukee -- Yount vs. Jeter is interesting
Chicago -- Banks, Santo, various pitchers of the early 1900s and Sosa's peak are good debates
Houston -- No, Bagwell
Dodgers -- Robinson, arguably Koufax and Snider and Garvey laps him in gift baskets**
Padres -- Gwynn vs. Jeter is interesting



* Brooks vs. Jeter is a pretty interesting debate actually
** one after the evening in question, one after the birth
   28. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4236320)
I contemplated about three of them (Rose/Ripken/Brett) and passed on Speaker (because he had two great seasons in Boston).

It wouldn't be hard for me to say that three (or all four) are better than Jeter (with just one franchise).
   29. Repoz Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4236321)
Chicago - Yes

Frank Thomas.
   30. rconn23 Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4236322)
Yawn. Another column where a writer creates a false pretense to take a shot at Jeter. No one is saying that Jeter is better than Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle or DiMaggio. NO ONE! You're making it up.

Prediction: When Jeter passes Honus Wagner next year on the hits list there will be a columnist who writes that, despite passing Wagner, people should stop with the notion that Jeter is better than Wagner. And no one will ever have said that.
   31. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: September 14, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4236328)
Am I the only one surprised to learn that Alex Rodriguez has 50 WAR with the Yankees?
   32. tshipman Posted: September 15, 2012 at 12:15 AM (#4236342)
Am I the only one surprised to learn that Alex Rodriguez has 50 WAR with the Yankees?


I was also mildly surprised.

Also, I was pretty shocked at how poorly WAR treated Yogi. IMO, it's fairly indefensible to say that Jeter was better than Yogi.
   33. shea80 Posted: September 15, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4236350)
Mets -- c'mon, your average park league softball team has a better player than the Mets

Joke all you want, but I'll take Tom Seaver.
   34. shea80 Posted: September 15, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4236351)
Mets -- c'mon, your average park league softball team has a better player than the Mets

Joke all you want, but I'll take Tom Seaver.
   35. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: September 15, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4236354)
One thing I've learned from box scores is that virtually every enjoyable anecdote is inaccurate as told. Sadly, even this one:

Bob Gibson plunked Ron Fairly for giving him a compliment.

Great story, well told. But he never hit Fairly while Joe Torre was catching.
   36. dejarouehg Posted: September 15, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4236367)
Reds = Bench?

Brett's a maybe?
   37. AROM Posted: September 15, 2012 at 01:32 AM (#4236373)
Jeter had 11806 PA coming into tonight's game. Berra had 8359. That's why Jeter is ahead in WAR, just being on the field more. It's tough being a catcher. They are very close in wins above average, around 34.
   38. Walt Davis Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:15 AM (#4236384)
Joke all you want, but I'll take Tom Seaver.

Nope, no arc on his pitches. Ump either calls it too heavy or it gets hammered. Also he can't hold his beer.
   39. Walt Davis Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:18 AM (#4236387)
Among the top 11 Yankees in career WAR, Jeter is 10th in WAR/PA.

In fairness, Mariano's 13 WAR/PA is pretty hard to beat.
   40. bookbook Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:31 AM (#4236389)
Did you know Randy Johnson accumulated 46.4 WAR in 6 years with Arizona (and four consecutive Cy Youngs)? I didn't. I think you could make a peak argument that Big Unit wins the best DBack over hypothetical Jeter
   41. Obo Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:41 AM (#4236391)
Oakland -- maybe but only because the A's have always been owned by cheapskates. Foxx has a case based on peak over career


Grove?
   42. bjhanke Posted: September 15, 2012 at 03:14 AM (#4236395)
The most interesting thing in this thread is not how good Derek Jeter is or is not, but how few of the greatest players in baseball history have stayed for their whole careers with one team, or even just stayed with one team until the dregs of their declines (Mays, for example, did not play his whole career with the Giants, but virtually his entire career value is with them, see also Cobb and Speaker). As Walt points out, Jeter is not near Jimmy Foxx or Eddie Collins or Lefty Grove as career players, but Connie Mack had to sell off Collins and Foxx and Grove. Actually, I'm not sure Jeter is better than Home Run Baker, and Baker's career is several years shorter due to oddities that have nothing to do with his playing ability. He may be better than anyone's Seattle career, but he's not better than ARod's entire career. In truth, Jeter is probably not better than the best player in any team's history other than later expansion teams. I mean, either Texas or Minnesota or somebody gets to claim Walter Johnson, because they used to be the old Washington Senators. The Cubs not only get Banks and Santo and Three Finger Brown, they also get Cap Anson. Jeter is a certain Hall of Famer, but I'd put him on the border between the inner and middle circles (actually, my personal ranking, projecting some sort of eventual retirement, is about 13-15 among shortstops, because all the best shortstops in history - even Banks - were much better gloves). You start talking about the best players in a century-old team's history, or the top ten shortstops of all time, the competition gets stiff. Anyone with a real weakness just drops out, and Jeter has at least one real weakness (I'd say only the one, but others might question his power, which I think is fine for even a top shortstop). - Brock Hanke
   43. Walt Davis Posted: September 15, 2012 at 04:54 AM (#4236401)
about 13-15 among shortstops,

If you mean among peak SS maybe. But career as a SS, he's mighty damn high.

I know, one could claim that Jeter hasn't played SS in about 15 years so why should we give him SS credit over guys like Banks and Yount. But, y'know, at SS he stood (barring the occasional dive) so at SS I count him.
   44. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: September 15, 2012 at 06:13 AM (#4236405)
Texas -- who is the greatest Ranger? Toby Harrah?
Oakland -- maybe but only because the A's have always been owned by cheapskates. Foxx has a case based on peak over career

I vote for Ivan Rodriguez with Texas, and there's no way Jeter was better than Oakland only Rickey Henderson. Their WAR is similar, but Jeter needed 3000+ PA more than Rickey. Rickey has about 48 WAA just with Oakland vs 34 for Jeter. In fact Rickey has about 23 WAA as a Yankee in just 2700+ PA vs Jeter's 34 in 11,000+ PA. I'm not even sure Jeter was a better Yankee than Rickey.
   45. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: September 15, 2012 at 07:19 AM (#4236409)
I would imagine Jeter would have a shot at the being the best player on a number of teams.

He'd be teh greatest Wilmington Quickstep EVAR!!!!eleven!
   46. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: September 15, 2012 at 07:39 AM (#4236414)
entire career value is with them, see also Cobb and Speaker


Cobb yes but Speaker split his career between Boston and Cleveland pretty close to straight down the middle.
   47. Mefisto Posted: September 15, 2012 at 08:49 AM (#4236422)
@25: Not just Mays, Bonds and Ott are well ahead of Jeter too. So are Roger Connor and George Davis, though you can argue era adjustments for them. If you add pitchers -- and I think it's dubious to compare pitcher WAR to hitter WAR -- Nichols and Mathewson are also ahead, again with an asterisk for era.
   48. BDC Posted: September 15, 2012 at 08:57 AM (#4236424)
Texas -- who is the greatest Ranger? Toby Harrah?

Like Grushenko, I'd have said Little Pudge offhand, and WAR bears me out. The eleven top Rangers in WAR (for the Rangers, and they've rarely kept their stars very long):

Rodriguez 47, Palmeiro 41, Bell 35, Sundberg 32, Hough 30, Rogers 29, Harrah 30, Gonzalez 29, Kinsler 28, AROD 25, Young 22.

I went to eleven to get the Face of the Franchise onto the list. And because it goes to eleven.

   49. BDC Posted: September 15, 2012 at 09:01 AM (#4236425)
And so I guess the implicit point is: Pudge Rodriguez was extremely good for the Rangers in 1,500 career games, a little over 6,000 plate appearances. But comparing that to Jeter's Yankee career is like comparing Bill Dickey to Jeter's Yankee career, almost straight up. However valuable a fine-hitting good catcher is over six or seven thousand PAs, he's unlikely to surpass a fine-hitting bad shortstop over nearly twelve thousand.
   50. GuyM Posted: September 15, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4236460)
Jeter had 11806 PA coming into tonight's game. Berra had 8359. That's why Jeter is ahead in WAR, just being on the field more. It's tough being a catcher.

That's a fair point. At the same time, I wonder whether the position adjustment for catchers is large enough. Tango's research suggests that the "catcher hitting penalty" is about 10 runs, which also happens to be the position adjustment (IIRC). That would imply that a replacement level catcher hits about as well as a replacement CF (if he weren't catching). Maybe, but it also seems plausible to me that replacement catchers are a bit worse than that.

IOW, if you forced a minimum salary backup catcher to catch 140 games, how bad would his hitting be? It might be pretty bad...

   51. rconn23 Posted: September 15, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4236462)
"is about 13-15 among shortstops,"

No. He is easily top 10. I don't care how atrocious his defense was, he was (and maybe still is) one of the great hitters ever relative to his position and has had a brilliant career.

Neyer wrote a column last year where he put Jeter at No.3 all time, behind Wagner and Ripken. I don't know if I'd go that high, I'd probably put him also behind A-Rod, just because his peak was SO amazing, and Vaughn.

Yount played almost half his games at other positions and Banks also played more time at other spots, so I don't see how you can rank them higher.

Not sure why these threads about Jeter always turn into the Charlie Steiner ESPN commercial about Holyfield.

Stuart Scott: Charley Steiner thinks you're maybe the 50th best heavyweight.

Holyfield: In the world?

Scott: In Georgia.
   52. Bowling Baseball Fan Posted: September 15, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4236470)
Charlie, come on out and get yo whoopin.
   53. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: September 15, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4236561)
For these kinds of discussions, WAA seems more useful than WAR. I'm not sure that isn't true across the board, in fact.
   54. TDF, situational idiot Posted: September 15, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4236572)
Cincinnati - Yes

I contemplated about three of them (Rose/Ripken/Brett) and passed on Speaker (because he had two great seasons in Boston).
Rose, as a Red: 76 WAR in 12300 PA, MVP, ROY, 2 GG
Bench: 72 WAR, 2 MVP, ROY, 10 GG
Morgan, as a Red: 56 WAR in under 5000 PA, 2 MVP, 4 GG
Frank Robinson, as a Red: 60 WAR in 6400 PA, MVP, ROY, GG
Larkin: 9050 PA, 67 WAR MVP, 3 GG

Jeter: 11,800 PA, 70 WAR, 0 MVP,ROY, 5 GG

Jeter is good, but much like the Yankees he'd only be the 6th best Red ever.
   55. PreservedFish Posted: September 15, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4236588)
Jeter is good, but much like the Yankees he'd only be the 6th best Red ever.


It looks like those 6 guys are bunched together really closely.
   56. TDF, situational idiot Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4236596)
It looks like those 6 guys are bunched together really closely.
WAR is a counting stat.

If Jeter had a 5 WAR season next year, he'd be about as good as Rose in as many PA (and that would include 800 PA at the end of Rose's career where he accumulated 0 WAR).

Bench accumulated a similar WAR as Jeter, but in 3000 fewer PA.
Morgan accumulated 14 fewer WAR, but in 6800 fewer PA.
Robinson accumulated 10 fewer WAR, but in about half the PA.
Larkin accumulated a similar WAR, but in 2800 fewer PA.
   57. Repoz Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4236602)
After some gooftesty back/forth, Keidel's changed some of the article.

"Had Jeter done this for any other team he’d be the best player in franchise history."

becomes...

Had Jeter done this for just about any other team he’d be the best player in franchise history.

"Jeter never even won an MVP, nor did he even finish second in the voting."

becomes...

...Jeter never even won an MVP.

And yes, I'm a severe dick.
   58. PreservedFish Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4236603)
WAR is a counting stat.


Gee, thanks.
   59. tfbg9 Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4236604)
Best season, bbrefWAR:

Jeter, 1999: 7.8

Petrocelli, 1969: 9.5

Derek Jeter...at his very best, not even as good as Rico Petrocelli!
   60. GregD Posted: September 15, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4236605)
It looks like those 6 guys are bunched together really closely.
Given the peaks, I don't think it's especially close between the top 4 and Jeter.

Best 5 seasons as Reds

Rose 8.2, 7.0, 6.7, 6.1, 5.9
Bench 8.5, 7.7., 7.1, 6.4, 6.0
Morgan 10.8, 9.5, 9.3, 9.1, 8.4,
F Robby 8.4, 7.5, 7.3, 6.6, 6.2
Larkin 6.9, 6.8, 5.9, 5.7, 5.5

Jeter 7.8, 7.3, 6.4, 5.4, 4.9

Jeter v Larkin is a close call, and I'd go with Jeter, though I loved Larkin, but the other ones are pretty well ahead of him.

Jeter is a fine, fine player, but I don't think he'd be the best all-time player for any of the original franchises.

The only real arguments I'd see would be
White Sox--Probably 2nd behind the Big Hurt. though the Jeter/Appling gap is narrower than I would have thought
As--I'd slot him 4th behind Rickey, Plank, and Grove, I think.
Cubs--Cap Anson obviously if you count 19th century. If not Santo and Sandberg and Banks vs Jeter is interesting. Not sure exactly where he'd slot in that group.
Dodgers--this is the close one. Depending on peak v career balance, you can make a case he'd be the greatest Dodger of all time. Funny that such a great franchise has relatively weak career leaders.

The Reds and Yankees obviously have
   61. GuyM Posted: September 15, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4236727)
Dodgers--this is the close one. Depending on peak v career balance, you can make a case he'd be the greatest Dodger of all time.

Even at the career level it's close. He's about even with Reese, Snider and Drysdale. Give Reese any war credit and he's well ahead of Jeter.

And for White Sox, Appling is a clear choice over Jeter. Actually, Eddie Collins is close to Jeter just counting his Chicago performance.
   62. nick swisher hygiene Posted: September 15, 2012 at 06:24 PM (#4236742)
GuyM is so utterly unsympathetic on the question of Jeter that I figure he's actually employed by the Captain himself as a cunning bid to discredit his stathead enemies.....
   63. Walt Davis Posted: September 15, 2012 at 08:44 PM (#4236855)
Agreed on Pudge for the Rangers. Obviously I forget how much of Rickey's career was with the A's. Bench was a big oversight and I always forget about Appling. Collins I'd thought of but just assumed his Sox-only and A's-only totals wouldn't compete.

And another case where a writer's silly claim "forces" us to appear as though we are "slamming" Jeter. There is of course no shame in not having a career that would rank as the best for a bunch of teams that have been playing for over 100 years. Everybody here knows that Jeter is an obvious HoFer and HoMer.
   64. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 15, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4236862)
I forget how much of Rickey's career was with the A's


Rickey's second stint with Oakland was 100 games more than he played with any other team except the Yankees. Rickey's third stint with Oakland was more games than he played for anyone other than The Yanks or Padres. Definitely not what immediately springs to mind when you think of a guy who played two-thirds of his career with one team.
   65. AROM Posted: September 15, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4236923)
Derek Jeter...at his very best, not even as good as Rico Petrocelli!


Not many can match Rico. Rico's 1969 season was among the best ever among players not in the HOF, excluding players on the ballot or not eligible yet. Rico 1969 or Al Rosen 1953.
   66. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 15, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4236932)
Derek Jeter...at his very best, not even as good as Rico Petrocelli!

Or Wilson Alvarez or Pat Seerey, for that matter. Why not compare apples to orange seeds while we're at it?
   67. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: September 15, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4236934)
And yes, I'm a severe dick.

Awwww, we know that Mike Burke once made fun of your lithp and you've never forgiven him or his team for it. You don't have to rationalize it, it's a perfectly understandable reason.
   68. rconn23 Posted: September 15, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4236944)
I thought the Rico Petrocelli thing was a joke. But people say such crazy things on Jeter threads, I honestly never know.

And Pee Wee Reese? Please.
   69. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 15, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4236955)
Great story, well told. But he never hit Fairly while Joe Torre was catching.
Close enough.

(Torre was playing 3B, Simmons was catching. That's the only time Gibson hit Fairly. Also, Fairly had homered off him that day, which contradicts Gibson's recollection.)
   70. GuyM Posted: September 16, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4237173)
And Pee Wee Reese? Please.

I know, right? Seems implausible. But based on the numbers, you can make the case. Once you correct for the errors in TZ, as Michael Humphreys does here, Reese and Jeter both have 60 career WAR. But Jeter picked up about 2 WAR this year, and will presumably add a few more before he's done, so he will have more career WAR. And of course there is the advantage in key counting stats. Admittedly, Jeter has about 25% more PA (and counting). But if you're willing to ignore the war issue, I think you can make a case that Jeter would be considered a greater Dodger than Reese.

   71. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 16, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4237202)
Not many can match Rico. Rico's 1969 season was among the best ever among players not in the HOF, excluding players on the ballot or not eligible yet. Rico 1969 or Al Rosen 1953.

best WAR seasons (hitters) among non-HOFers. (Lonnie Smith--really???)
   72. tfbg9 Posted: September 16, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4237212)
Andy's banning obliterated his sense of humor?
Nah, he never really had one.

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