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Saturday, November 28, 2009

Keith Olbermann: Hall of Famers and Numbers Without Wings

WTF?! You don’t need Mac Stipanovich’s knife to poke holes in this ballot (if it actually existed)!

Roberto Alomar: No, just barely. I don’t think he was as good as Sandberg and I always said Sandberg shouldn’t go in before Joe Gordon. I’m not judging Alomar on the spitting incident, I’m judging him on the fact that for whatever reason, at age 34 he not only turned from a superstar into a fringe major leaguer, but he also turned into a millstone around the neck of a franchise. The bad taste may fade with time, but right now I couldn’t vote for him.

Harold Baines: Yes, just barely. He’s hurt by the 2,866 hits - he’s in that Buckner zone. Everybody else who got to Buckner’s level of hits (2,763) has gotten in, or will, or is Pete Rose.

Barry Larkin: A great player and one of my favorites, but I don’t recall ever during his playing career having had even that Alomarian sense that this could be a Hall-of-Famer. If we’re looking to put a Reds shortstop in Cooperstown, it should be David Concepcion.

Mark McGwire: Hall of Fame? For what? For pretending to Congress that nothing happened before that steroid hearing? Fine. You got your wish. Nothing happened. Your lifetime numbers are 0-0-.000. And by the way, why is it ok for him to just waltz back in as batting coach of the Cardinals? Would we let Bonds come back in? This is unacceptable, and it gives credence to the very disturbing claim that race is at play when it comes to the punishment of steroid cheats. Mark McGwire is a steroid cheater.

Jack Morris: Another beneficiary of a little perspective. I used to flinch at that 3.90 ERA. There seems very little doubt that Tom Glavine will go in on the first ballot at 3.54. I’m looking more at the 254 wins and the clutch performances. Aye.

Tim Raines: No. It is very close. Maybe the steals should earn him a spot. The rest of the offensive production just doesn’t.

Repoz Posted: November 28, 2009 at 03:14 PM | 111 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: announcers, hall of fame, history, television

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   101. Alex_Lewis Posted: November 29, 2009 at 10:39 PM (#3398749)
Take Raines's career statistics and convert 1100 walks into 400 singles and 700 outs. That turns him from a .294/.385/.425 career hitter into a .301/.318/.418 hitter. That's a massively worse player, and a player who would have scored significantly fewer runs and had somewhat fewer SB. But it's 3005 career hits and a .301 career BA. Would you vote for this paper creation (who is a much worse player than the real Raines) for the HoF?


I like the thought, but your hypothetical player is so far from reality that he's hard to conceive of in any reasonable sense.
   102. GregD Posted: November 30, 2009 at 12:00 AM (#3398779)
why would we assume Raines would hit 364 in at-bats where he ended up drawing a walk?
   103. Hugh Jorgan Posted: November 30, 2009 at 12:37 AM (#3398790)
Olbermann has to be trolling here. You can't be wrong on every single player unless it's on purpose

I concur. The ballot is pretty much the opposite of how most of us here would have it. There is no way you leave out Alomar so easily, yet throw in Morris and ignore the ERA. He's baited us...or have I given him too much credit and he really is that stupid? My head is now going to explode.
   104. Jeff K. Posted: November 30, 2009 at 12:53 AM (#3398800)
why would we assume Raines would hit 364 in at-bats where he ended up drawing a walk?

Why would we assume he would not reach base in 700 at-bats where he ended up drawing a walk?

Those numbers were used to get Raines to .300 and 3000 while undeniably not improving his stats, so that he wouldn't have to face that criticism.
   105. OCF Posted: November 30, 2009 at 02:19 AM (#3398833)
Jeff K. got my intentions right. This isn't a "what if" question - what if Raines had used a different approach? (If Raines has used a different approach, he wouldn't have been Raines.) The question was about the perception of the value of his numbers.

When the Hall of Merit was doing ranking exercises, I decided to lump LF and RF together and create a master list from which I would extract ballots for each position separately. Here are #11-25 on that list:

11. Carl Yastrzemski
12. Pete Rose
13. Joe Jackson
14. Harry Heilmann
15. Al Kaline
16. Paul Waner
17. Tony Gwynn
18. Tim Raines

19. Jesse Burkett
20. Fred Clarke
21. Roberto Clemente
22. Willie Stargell
23. Al Simmons
24. Billy Williams
25. Enos Slaughter

Now it's possible that I wasn't making enough of defensive value, and some of the better defenders (Clemente, Slaughter) should rank higher while some of the worse defenders (Heilmann, Stargell) should rank lower. But I am convinced that the overall values of Gwynn and Raines are so close that the slightest tweak in the assumptions you use could alter the order between them.
   106. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: November 30, 2009 at 03:19 AM (#3398852)
Olbermann has to be trolling here. You can't be wrong on every single player unless it's on purpose


I concur. The ballot is pretty much the opposite of how most of us here would have it. There is no way you leave out Alomar so easily, yet throw in Morris and ignore the ERA. He's baited us...or have I given him too much credit and he really is that stupid? My head is now going to explode.

You're absolutely right that he's baited us, except that the "he" in question is (once again) the evil, moustachioed Repoz.
   107. cardsfanboy Posted: November 30, 2009 at 08:35 PM (#3399333)
Sheesh! This ballot is a Gomez Addams' train wreck of epic proportions. I'll have to question anything he says about baseball from now on after this abomination.

I would have to question anything he says about politics after this, and considering that I mostly agree with him, that is a big deal. (I have a rule, if you are 100% wrong about one subject, then I can't take your opinion on other subjects either, it's why anyone that debate evolution cannot enter into a political discussion. They clearly are massively wrong on a subject that they have even done a cursory research on. I have no problem with differing opinions of course, but someone who debates evolution has the educational equivalent of believing the U.S. has only 8 States--how can you take someone who believes something like that seriously) And of course Olberman has pretty much invalidated everything he has ever said with this ballot. He may be right on a political subject, but there is no way anyone could actually think he has the functioning brains to have researched it acceptably.
   108. Buzzards Bay Posted: December 12, 2009 at 05:30 AM (#3410653)
revisit from a spelling champ-I guess I've been trying to digest the diminution of the lead off spot over the last few days and I agree and disagree at once
   109. Dan Szymborski Posted: December 12, 2009 at 07:04 AM (#3410669)
I missed it before, but it just seems wacky to complain about Alomar turning from a superstar into a fringe player at 34 while professing the superiority of Ryne Sandberg, who turned from a superstar into a fringe player at 34 and Joe Gordon, who was out of baseball at 35.
   110. The NeverEnding Torii (oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh) Posted: December 12, 2009 at 01:19 PM (#3410690)
Beck: "I just love the...(sob!)...Hall of Fame so much. And I fear for it... (wah!!!)


I don't know this one, but it sounds delightfully weird. Is this a Midnite Vultures B-side?
Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2

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