Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, September 24, 2012

Ken Rosenthal: Angels owner sticking by Scioscia

Dipoto never appeared in jeopardy; Moreno hired him to play a stronger role than the team’s previous GM, Tony Reagins, and Dipoto impressed the owner with his trades for catcher Chris Iannetta, reliever Ernesto Frieri and right-hander Zack Greinke, sources say.

The best solution, some within the Angels believed, was for Scioscia to leave for another club, even though he has been the team’s manager since 2000 and is under contract through 2018. That way, the Angels could have avoided a messy parting with their manager, and Scioscia’s next team could have offset his remaining salary.

Scioscia, 53, signed a 10-year, $50 million contract on Jan. 5, 2009, and his deal includes $6 million salaries in each of the final three years, according to a source with knowledge of the details.

Scioscia, sources say, briefly considered stepping down after Dipoto dismissed Mickey Hatcher — Scioscia’s close friend, former teammate and hitting coach for 12 seasons with the Angels — on May 15.

Sources also say that at one point in August, Scioscia told Dipoto during a contentious meeting that if the GM was not satisfied with his job performance, then he should fire him.

Tripon Posted: September 24, 2012 at 12:18 PM | 31 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4244160)
No one is firing a manager with $30M left on his contract, unless he goes postal in the club-house. Even then, if he kills Vernon Wells, they might still keep him.
   2. Tripon Posted: September 24, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4244167)
What the Angels are hoping is that Scioscia suggests a buyout, signs with another team, and the new team basically pick up Scioscia's contract.
   3. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: September 24, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4244169)
Sources also say that at one point in August, Scioscia told Dipoto during a contentious meeting that if the GM was not satisfied with his job performance, then he should fire him.

I guess Scioscia has 30 million reasons not to quit.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 24, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4244228)
What the Angels are hoping is that Scioscia suggests a buyout, signs with another team, and the new team basically pick up Scioscia's contract.

but no reason for Scioscia not to hold out for the buyout, plus the new contract.

I don't see any team being so desperate for Scioscia that they're willing to absorb a bunch of LAA's obligations to him.
   5. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: September 24, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4244229)
Scioscia, 53, signed a 10-year, $50 million contract on Jan. 5, 2009, and his deal includes $6 million salaries in each of the final three years, according to a source with knowledge of the details.


Somehow, I missed this. I cannot process giving a 10 year deal to ANY manager. 3 years is the longest any manager should get. Granted, rosters change, but even the brightest and most adaptable manager will begin to lose his team in time. 10 years is way too long of a gamble. If Joe Torre could lose the Yankees, any manager could lose any team.
   6. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: September 24, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4244251)
This seems like a situation where the ever rare 'manager trade' could become a distinct possibility.
   7. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4244274)
Somehow, I missed this.
Me too. And I agree compeltely, a 5-year contract for a manager is fully ####### insane.
   8. rlc Posted: September 24, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4244341)
Is Scioscia's contact guaranteed? Why would a team guarantee a manager's contract - did the Manager's Union force them to agree to this codicil during the horrific manager's strike that ruined the season back in, um, whatever year that was?
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 24, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4244347)
Is Scioscia's contact guaranteed?

If not, it will be the first non-guaranteed MLB contract I've ever heard of. Manager contracts are always guaranteed, to my knowledge.
   10. TomH Posted: September 24, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4244375)
Mr Sciosica was always great at blocking the plate, which prevented runs from scoring. We didn't know he would be the same as a manager... particularly when it's his own team at bat.
   11. Shredder Posted: September 24, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4244460)
Mr Sciosica was always great at blocking the plate, which prevented runs from scoring. We didn't know he would be the same as a manager... particularly when it's his own team at bat.
The Angels are third in the AL in runs scored. Offense is not their problem.
   12. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: September 24, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4244492)
Amazing how fast a manager can go from considered one of the best in the game to serious discussions of whether or not they should be fired. That's a tough job.
   13. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 24, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4244516)
Has a manager's contract ever been voided because he won't do what he's told? I mean, let's say Scioscia goes all "Art Howe as portrayed in Moneyball" and starts playing guys specifically against DiPoto's orders. Can he be fired and the Angels not have to pay his contract? Or can he basically just do whatever he wants?
   14. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: September 24, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4244567)
Yeah, it's hard to see how Scioscia's to blame for the bullpen mess. Even an average bullpen would have the Angels in the WC right now. Most blown saves in the AL, third highest OBP Against, and basically nobody worth trusting outside of Frieri and (sometimes) Downs. He's given a lot of guys a lot of opportunities, he hasn't buried anyone, he hasn't overworked anyone. The bullpen's failures are on the bullpen, not on Scioscia.
   15. JoeHova Posted: September 24, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4244573)
Wow, that's the 2nd worst manager/coach contract I've ever heard of. Larry Brown's with the Knicks is the only one that comes to mind as being worse (5 years/$60 million), but at least the Knicks were smart enough (ha!) not to let the contract dictate that they had to keep Brown and they fired him after one trainwreck of a year. Scioscia surely has built up more goodwill in Anaheim than Brown did in New York but if they think it's time for him to go, they should just fire him and not worry about the money. I know it seems weird to follow precedent set by the Knicks, but keeping a coach/manager that everybody hates just because he is owed a lot of money is not a recipe for success.
   16. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: September 24, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4244580)
Has a manager's contract ever been voided because he won't do what he's told? I mean, let's say Scioscia goes all "Art Howe as portrayed in Moneyball" and starts playing guys specifically against DiPoto's orders. Can he be fired and the Angels not have to pay his contract? Or can he basically just do whatever he wants?


I'm sure there would be a grievance or a lawsuit (not sure how it would work from a legal perspective). I think the bigger issue is the Angels would have to deal with the concerns of any subsequent managerial candidate to replace Scioscia. Money trumps all and there are guys out there who would kill for the chance so it's not an insurmountable hurdle but I think it would be an issue. I think they'd probably have a tough time getting an established manager (e.g. Francona) or a hot managerial prospect (e.g. no clue, Torey Lovullo?) but maybe a long time minor league manager or someone like that would be a bit easier to reel in. On top of that, the lawsuit/grievance aspect of things would create a fair amount of ill will in the press which wouldn't help things with the fans.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: September 24, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4244585)
Maybe they can trade him for Mike Napoli.

Surely the contract isn't written in such a way that Scioscia has to be the manager, right? Promote him to Exec VP of Gritty Wisdom.

But if I were them I think I'd be waiting another year too.
   18. DL from MN Posted: September 24, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4244586)
If you can only "do what you're told" when it comes to making up lineups you're not really the manager.
   19. Shredder Posted: September 24, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4244591)
Yeah, it's hard to see how Scioscia's to blame for the bullpen mess.
He's not responsible for the bums in the bullpen, but he's made, by my count, at least three awful decisions in the last few weeks that have directly led to losses, and I can only think of one game in that span where I thought he deft handling of the bullpen helped win the game. In an era where almost every manager uses his bullpen the same way, that's a pretty awful record.
   20. phredbird Posted: September 24, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4244597)
i have a visceral dislike for scioscia -- he strikes me as being an arrogant know it all -- but i'm not enough of an expert to say if he's a crummy manager. i get the impression his players really respect him though.
   21. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: September 24, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4244606)
If you can only "do what you're told" when it comes to making up lineups you're not really the manager.

I didn't say that. I said what if he starts playing guys specifically against orders. Something that could be defensible, but not what DiPoto wants. Let's say they still had Napoli and Mathis on the team and Scioscia plays Napoli once a week. DiPoto calls in Scioscia and says "I still have Napoli on the team because he's the better option. Play Napoli at least 4 times a week." Scioscia then proceeds to have a healthy Napoli continue to play once a week over the next month. Once a week DiPoto says "I told you to play Napoli more" and Scioscia responds "I like Mathis, if you don't like it, fire me".

What happens? Can they void the contract?
   22. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: September 24, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4244611)
Trade him to Boston for Bobby Valentine.
   23. PreservedFish Posted: September 24, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4244616)
I remember being really impressed that Scioscia started Benji Gil in the World Series over Adam Kennedy after Kennedy had won the ALCS MVP. Stuck with the platoon.
   24. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: September 24, 2012 at 06:57 PM (#4244626)
He's not responsible for the bums in the bullpen, but he's made, by my count, at least three awful decisions in the last few weeks that have directly led to losses, and I can only think of one game in that span where I thought he deft handling of the bullpen helped win the game.
I know the games you're talking about, and I'm not sure I necessarily agree. Scioscia's gotten burned by sticking with this guy or that all season long, so I don't blame him if his faith in the pen is shaken and he's making unusual pulls at unusual times.

In an era where almost every manager uses his bullpen the same way, that's a pretty awful record.
Scioscia's got a pretty good overall record. I have no problems cutting him some slack.
   25. Matt Welch Posted: September 24, 2012 at 07:24 PM (#4244639)
As terribly disappointing as the Angels season obviously has been, wouldn't you really rather face the A's or even the miracle Orioles in the playoffs? Best record in the AL since Trout came up, plus Weaver-Greinke-Haren-Santana. Weirdly, I think the Angels are both unlikely to make the playoffs, and *likely* to be the best playoff team in the AL should they make it. I recognize that I've probably lost my critical faculties....
   26. Walt Davis Posted: September 24, 2012 at 09:15 PM (#4244691)
For a while there, he seemed to be ignoring "traditional modern" closer usage, mixing in plenty of saves for Downs. Then Downs got hurt and I see he hasn't had a save (or blown save) in the month plus that he's been back.
   27. Spivey Posted: September 24, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4244696)
I'd take Scoscia over Washington and I don't think it's close. Red ass managers have a shelf life, but so do players managers.
   28. DL from MN Posted: September 24, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4244752)
Can they void the contract?


No. The manager fills out the lineup card. If you don't like his decisions you have to fire him. They could void the contract if he punched a player or showed up drunk but he gets paid to decide which guys play.
   29. valuearbitrageur Posted: September 25, 2012 at 01:29 AM (#4244851)
a 5-year contract for a manager is fully ####### insane.


Totally, wrong. A long term contract gives your manager confidence to make the tough decisions, keeps him in control of the clubhouse, and most importantly allows the team to pay him much less per year because of the long term job securi.... wait, what.?!?!!?!?!!!!!!
   30. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: September 25, 2012 at 01:51 AM (#4244856)
Firing a manager because the team is undone by an inept bullpen seems like a terrible idea. Especially if the guy has a track record for being to run a decent pen when given the arms. The example for me is Bobby Cox who had some decent pens, some good pens, and some great pens. Then one year they gave him Danny Kolb and Chris Reitsma to close games and holy #### did they have a terrible pen that year. The take away wasn't that the manager has lost it, the take away was to go find some better arms.
   31. BWV 1129 Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4245743)
This is just a year that has gone wrong in many ways, and I don't know that anyone can or does blame Scioscia for any of it. Not only has the bullpen been a disaster, but much of the rotation has been, as well: Haren has been clearly gimpy for most of the year, Santana had his head in an ass for four months, and once he got it out CJ Wilson put his own in. Law of Conservation of Head-Assing! And there was no real fifth starter most of the year, either. It's a shame because the offense is unlikely to be this good again in 2013.

I can't comment on Scioscia's bullpen usage, because I don't pay attention to it; everyone down there is generic interchangeable fodder, aside from Frieri and occasionally Downs, both of whom are flawed.

Add it all up, and despite Albert, Trout, and Jered, this is a team that isn't much fun to watch at all. It's rather exhausting and dispiriting. I know it's worse for like 25 other teams, and therefore I have no right to complain and will desist, but I'm quite ready for the season to end.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Francis
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogYankees won't get into bidding war for Chase Headley: source - NY Daily News
(3 - 9:58am, Nov 26)
Last: Pops Freshenmeyer

NewsblogBoston Red Sox prove (once again) that competitive balance in baseball will never exist | cleveland.com
(6 - 9:50am, Nov 26)
Last: Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond

NewsblogRolling Stone: The 15 Worst Owners in Sports
(41 - 9:49am, Nov 26)
Last: Astroenteritis

NewsblogStanton Losing About $141 Million of Record Deal to Taxes - Bloomberg
(80 - 9:49am, Nov 26)
Last: Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof

NewsblogBig Unit, Pedro, Smoltz headline Hall of Fame ballot
(82 - 9:47am, Nov 26)
Last: Bitter Mouse

NewsblogOz: Mike Trout Q&A: His workouts, goals & what he’s thankful for
(13 - 9:47am, Nov 26)
Last: Darren

NewsblogOT: NFL/NHL thread
(8670 - 9:45am, Nov 26)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogOTP Politics November 2014: Mets Deny Bias in Ticket Official’s Firing
(4853 - 9:25am, Nov 26)
Last: Lassus

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-26-2014
(2 - 9:24am, Nov 26)
Last: Rennie's Tenet

NewsblogAdam Rubin: My Hall of Fame ballot
(55 - 9:05am, Nov 26)
Last: LargeBill

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - November 2014
(1135 - 2:05am, Nov 26)
Last: Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot

NewsblogWendy Thurm on Twitter: "What the hell kinda panda is that?"
(7 - 9:59pm, Nov 25)
Last: Omineca Greg

NewsblogSchool of Roch: Melky Cabrera a "fallback option" for the Orioles
(29 - 9:41pm, Nov 25)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogJazayerli: The Legacy Of The 2014 Royals, Part 1.
(42 - 9:08pm, Nov 25)
Last: 'Spos stares out the window, waits for spring

Newsblogred sox - So … is there any money left for pitching? Red Sox roster building reconsidered - WEEI | Alex Speier
(120 - 9:02pm, Nov 25)
Last: Zach

Page rendered in 0.2445 seconds
54 querie(s) executed