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Monday, July 25, 2011

Kernan: Baseball Hall of Fame may lower induction wait to 3 years

“The Post has learned” (trembles)

Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera could become Hall of Famers much faster than expected after they retire. The waiting time is currently five years after a player retires to be named to the ballot. The National Baseball Hall of Fame, though, is considering making the waiting period only three years, The Post has learned.

That would be a great move.

...One reason Hall officials would want to shorten the waiting period is to make it a more “immediate” event. There is a lot to be said for that because, why should sure-fire, first-ballot Hall of Famers have to wait five years?

We’re much more of a quick-response world, and a three-year waiting period would fit the bill. This five-year waiting period was first enacted in the 1950s. Times have changed. There were 50 Hall of Famers on stage.

...The ballot gets a little thin next year. Bernie Williams is on it and does not figure to garner much support. Holdovers Barry Larkin, Tim Raines and Jack Morris are the only ones to really have a shot. It really gets messy in 2013 with the likes of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Sammy Sosa on the ballot. Mike Piazza also is a first-timer in 2013.

It will be a while before Jeter and his 3,015 hits (and counting) and Rivera and his 584 saves (and counting) are eligible, but they just may get here a little faster than expected.

Repoz Posted: July 25, 2011 at 06:59 PM | 123 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: announcements, hall of fame, history

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Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2
   101. Moeball Posted: July 26, 2011 at 12:12 AM (#3885131)
The real reason for trying to get as many "clean" players inducted as possible for 2012 is because there won't be any ceremonies in 2013. Remember, the world is ending in December of 2012 so there won't be any election results for 2013! No need to worry what to do about Bonds, Clemens, etc. Problem solved!
   102. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 26, 2011 at 12:18 AM (#3885136)
...and Dan Shaunghnessy!" Something like that is the worst case scenario.
It certainly is, and for more than just the reason you're implying.
   103. Howie Menckel Posted: July 26, 2011 at 01:26 AM (#3885181)
[gives up on calling out stereotypes]
   104. Bruce Markusen Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:05 AM (#3885236)
Oh that's bull, McCoy. You wrote: "So then the real point is that it doesn't matter if they run a horrible operation that has dwindling attendance numbers?"

You're clearly implying that the Hall is run poorly.

And now you're running away from your original statement.
   105. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:18 AM (#3885257)
While McCoy continues his complaints about Cooperstown, I can assure all other readers and posters at BTF that this is a wonderful village offering multiple vacation activities and that the Hall of Fame is a first-class Museum. If you're a baseball fan--and I assume most of you at this site are--you'll love it.

Bruce, by this time you should know that McCoy's got a whole swarm of bees buzzing around in his bonnet, most of which generate little more than random noise. Most of us know that Cooperstown is a much better setting for the HoF than New York City, and most of us (at least in the real world, if not BTF) realize that the economy has more to do with attendance than the lack of a bunch of juicers. I've been there four times now and every visit was well worth it.

----------------------

The real reason for trying to get as many "clean" players inducted as possible for 2012 is because there won't be any ceremonies in 2013. Remember, the world is ending in December of 2012 so there won't be any election results for 2013! No need to worry what to do about Bonds, Clemens, etc. Problem solved!

But if you believe the Rays and the McCoys, you'll realize that the prospective absence of The Steroid Boys from the Hall of Fame is precisely the reason that the Gods are going to destroy the world at the end of 2012. Like all chicks, God obviously digs the long ball.
   106. McCoy Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:24 AM (#3885261)
Oh that's bull, McCoy. You wrote: "So then the real point is that it doesn't matter if they run a horrible operation that has dwindling attendance numbers?"

You're clearly implying that the Hall is run poorly.



No, I'm clearly answering an "if" with an "if".

And now you're running away from your original statement.


I haven't run away from a single thing. Why on earth would I run away from a statement if I did actually mean it? Because you were stern on the tubes?



Bruce, by this time you should know that McCoy's got a whole swarm of bees buzzing around in his bonnet, most of which generate little more than random noise.

Well, FU you too, Andy.

But if you believe the Rays and the McCoys, you'll realize that the prospective absence of The Steroid Boys from the Hall of Fame is precisely the reason that the Gods are going to destroy the world at the end of 2012

And how did I get added to this comment? Bogeyman around every corner it appears.
   107. Something Other Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:28 AM (#3885265)
That would be a great move.
It would be a truly stupid move. The voters don't have much of a clue. Give them a little less time and they have a better chance at doing something stupid. Put another way, are they likely to do a better job if we give them less time?
   108. Ron J Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:36 AM (#3885272)
McCoy, not that you're likely to get this, but if somebody like Bruce isn't getting your point, you have been clear at all. And to (attempt to) be clear, I can't see any way to parse your posts except as Bruce did.

And nothing about your posting history would leave me to take things in a different light.
   109. Joe Kehoskie Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:37 AM (#3885273)
I grew up two hours from the Hall of Fame and I've been there about 10 times. It's a great, great place and no baseball fan would regret making the pilgrimage there. Cooperstown isn't exactly a suburb of NYC, but a side trip to the HOF from places like NYC, Boston, Philly, or even Toronto isn't all that difficult (and if you're more of a MiLB fan, Auburn, Syracuse, and Rochester are within 2-3 hours).

The above said, I do fear for the HOF's long-term viability and relevance if the PED issue isn't resolved soon. A HOF that lacks not only the all-time hits leader but also the HR leader, Clemens, Bagwell, et al. (and Marvin Miller) will be a HOF with a lot of holes.
   110. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:39 AM (#3885276)
Bruce, by this time you should know that McCoy's got a whole swarm of bees buzzing around in his bonnet, most of which generate little more than random noise.

Well, FU you too, Andy.


Why, thank you kind Sir!

But if you believe the Rays and the McCoys, you'll realize that the prospective absence of The Steroid Boys from the Hall of Fame is precisely the reason that the Gods are going to destroy the world at the end of 2012.

And how did I get added to this comment? Bogeyman around every corner it appears.


Okay, that one was a pre-emptive strike. I'm glad you don't stay up nights worrying about anything other than getting more visitors to that godforsaken place, and that you're not somehow offended if The Steroid Boys have to pay their way into the plaque room.

-------------------

It would be a truly stupid move. The voters don't have much of a clue. Give them a little less time and they have a better chance at doing something stupid. Put another way, are they likely to do a better job if we give them less time?

In terms of brilliant marketing strategies it's about on the level of this.
   111. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:45 AM (#3885281)
But if you believe the Rays and the McCoys, you'll realize that the prospective absence of The Steroid Boys from the Hall of Fame is precisely the reason that the Gods are going to destroy the world at the end of 2012. Like all chicks, God obviously digs the long ball.


What does Clemens have to do with "the long ball"?
   112. McCoy Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:46 AM (#3885283)
McCoy, not that you're likely to get this, but if somebody like Bruce isn't getting your point, you have been clear at all. And to (attempt to) be clear, I can't see any way to parse your posts except as Bruce did.

Bruce is not the Pope nor is he or you unbiased. Andy had an if and I gave him a response to that if with another if. You and him, I guess, took it one way while I meant it another way. I've now explained that and yet Bruce does not accept that. So be it.

And nothing about your posting history would leave me to take things in a different light.


If we're going to talk about posting history then how about the fact that I have complimented the employees of the Hall in the past numerous times?
   113. McCoy Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:47 AM (#3885286)
Okay, that one was a pre-emptive strike. I'm glad you don't stay up nights worrying about anything other than getting more visitors to that godforsaken place, and that you're not somehow offended if The Steroid Boys have to pay their way into the plaque room.

Why in the world are you acting this way towards me? You're being very petty and snide for no reason.
   114. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:48 AM (#3885288)
The above said, I do fear for the HOF's long-term viability and relevance if the PED issue isn't resolved soon. A HOF that lacks not only the all-time hits leader but also the HR leader, Clemens, Bagwell, et al. (and Marvin Miller) will be a HOF with a lot of holes.

Bruce could answer this better than most of us, but other than the one weekend of the year, I seriously doubt if 99% of the visitors to the HoF go there just to look at any particular set of plaques. I'd certainly vote for Bagwell and Miller, but their absence is hardly going to keep me away**, and for every person who "boycotts" the Hall because The Steroids Boys aren't there, there's just as likely to be another person who'd "boycott" it if they started electing juicers. One way or the other it'd almost certainly be pretty much of a wash.

If you think that the juicers should be elected, fine. That's an honest matter of opinion. But it's more of a question of one's personal view of the HoF's mission than it's a question that's going to determine the HoF's long range survival.

**Any more than I'd stay away if every known juicer plus Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe got inducted. I go for the exhibits, not the plaques---you can buy postcards of the plaques.
   115. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:56 AM (#3885302)
Bruce could answer this better than most of us, but other than the one weekend of the year, I seriously doubt if 99% of the visitors to the HoF go there just to look at any particular set of plaques. I'd certainly vote for Bagwell and Miller, but their absence is hardly going to keep me away**, and for every person who "boycotts" the Hall because The Steroids Boys aren't there, there's just as likely to be another person who'd "boycott" it if they started electing juicers. One way or the other it'd almost certainly be pretty much of a wash.


You miss the issue. It's not about "boycotting" the Hall, but about seeing a Hall of Fame without baseball's very greatest players as irrelevant.
   116. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:57 AM (#3885303)
Okay, that one was a pre-emptive strike. I'm glad you don't stay up nights worrying about anything other than getting more visitors to that godforsaken place, and that you're not somehow offended if The Steroid Boys have to pay their way into the plaque room.

Why in the world are you acting this way towards me? You're being very petty and snide for no reason.


Okay, if you're not one of the tiresome BTF crew who whines about how "meaningless" or "bogus" the HoF would be without their middle aged boyhood heroes from the Steroid Era, then I owe you a sincere 100% apology for confusing you with Ray & Co. I've been confused with Kevin and Chass so many times during these steroids threads, I guess I should be more strictly observant about not jumping to conclusions.
   117. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:58 AM (#3885306)
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the "boycotters" on either side are actually people who never would have gone anyway.
   118. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 26, 2011 at 02:59 AM (#3885307)
You miss the issue. It's not about "boycotting" the Hall, but about seeing a Hall of Fame without baseball's very greatest players as irrelevant.

Irrelevant to you, yourself and you, is what you mean. Maybe you can move the Hall of Sabermetrics to New York City and make everyone happy.
   119. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:00 AM (#3885309)
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the "boycotters" on either side are actually people who never would have gone anyway.

Truest words written on the thread, my man.
   120. McCoy Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:04 AM (#3885313)
Okay, if you're not one of the tiresome BTF crew who whines about how "meaningless" or "bogus" the HoF would be without their middle aged boyhood heroes from the Steroid Era, then I owe you a sincere 100% apology for confusing you with Ray & Co. I've been confused with Kevin and Chass so many times during these steroids threads, I guess I should be more strictly observant about not jumping to conclusions.

I think it is silly/hypocritical to not vote for them because of steroids but I also don't care if they don't get elected. The only issue that I have been interested in in regards to the steroid players and the hall is the economic impact it might or might not have on the hall.

The least interesting thing about the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown is the actual Hall of Fame. Cancel the HoF, keep it, it matters not to me. The musuem and library are vastly more important and because of them and their needs I understand why the musuem needs a HoF to survive.
   121. AROM Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:07 AM (#3885317)
I don't think this is a good time for a change like this, although it would be acceptable if they also changed it so you could vote for more than 10 players.

Preferably, they could also change it so that each player has a checkbox with three choices: A) Yes, put him in now. B) Ask me next year C) No, not deserving. I don't think 95% of voters really wanted Lou Whitaker to disappear after only one ballot, give them this format and he probably would have had a ton of B's.

Looking at the players listed by McCoy #27, I'll add the holdovers and remove Edmonds, since his 2010 comeback pushes him back. I see as deserving:

Larkin, Bagwell, Raines, Edgar, Trammell, Walker, McGwire, Palmeiro, Bonds, Clemens, Biggio, Schilling, Sosa, Piazza, Lofton, Glavine, Kent, Maddux, Mussina, and Thomas.

That's 20 players.
   122. Joe Kehoskie Posted: July 26, 2011 at 03:18 AM (#3885327)
You miss the issue. It's not about "boycotting" the Hall, but about seeing a Hall of Fame without baseball's very greatest players as irrelevant.

Right. It might be the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, but the emphasis is on the Hall of Fame part. As such, to the extent it becomes less and less comprehensive, it's likely to lose appeal.
   123. Christopher Linden Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:12 AM (#3885348)
I think Arom's three-answer tweak is tremendous. Figure Players with 75% (A) get in, players with 33% (C) and no more than, say, 25% (A) are out, rest roll over for the following year.

And I second about seeing the Hall as much as for the museum exhibits as for the plaques and names. The museum is excellent. And on that subject I will throw in a quick plug for the WWII museum in downtown New Orleans. Very powerful stuff.

Happy Base Ball
   124. Walt Davis Posted: July 26, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#3885381)
Bagwell and Raines have time on their side at least.

Sure, my point was that last ballot Bagwell had about 42% and Raines about 37%. So the writer wrote: Holdovers Barry Larkin, Tim Raines and Jack Morris are the only ones to really have a shot. In reality (a) Raines has no shot for 2012 -- he'd have to double his vote total; (b) his chances of making it in 2012 are less than Bagwell's ... OK, less than or equal to given Bagwell's chances might well be zero too.

Anyway, Bagwell might well be on a typical "good start" HoF path that would normally see him elected for either 2013 or 2014 (e.g. Sandberg). But he's got the glut coming at him ... and we're still not sure if he was just under-valued by many voters or a victim of a steroid boycott.
   125. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: July 26, 2011 at 05:22 AM (#3885432)
Anyway, Bagwell might well be on a typical "good start" HoF path that would normally see him elected for either 2013 or 2014 (e.g. Sandberg).

Well, I don't think he has any chance to get in that quicly no matter what. Guys who start in the low 40s have an excellent shot to get in historically, but that doesn't mean it happens soon. In fact, if you start in the low 40s, it shouldn't happen too soon.

Everyone who started within 5% of Bagwell's first year vote total in the modern era (going back to 1962, when the 5-year rule really solidified who was a 1st year guy:

Dawson, Andre 45.30%
Carter, Gary 42.30%
Smith, Lee 42.30%
Bagwell, Jeff 41.70%
Wilhelm, Hoyt 41.70%
Garvey, Steve 41.60%
Bunning, Jim 38.10%
Reese, Pee Wee 36.30%

Dawson took eight more years to go in.

Carter took five more years.

Lee Smith currently holds the record for best debut by someone who's not in. But he's still on teh ballot - and the Hall is still trying to figure out how to handle relievers anyway.

Wilhelm (another reliever) took six years to go in.

Garvey has the best debut by anyone not in who is not currenlty on the ballot. He's also an oddity in that his vote support absolutley cratered as he went along, falling to half. The same thing happened in Maury Wills (not listed here, but I'll mention to help make a point about Garvey). Both were overrated when they played, had embarrasing and considerable off-field problems to their image, and then had things beyond their control cause people to question their on-field value -- the rise of sabermetics for Garvey and the more impressive baserunning of Rianes and Rickey for Wills. And no one wanted to defend them after their off-field stuff. So Garvey has the best start by a position player for somoene not in. he's not likely to go in any time soon, but I don't think he's a good comp for anyone.

Bunning was a VC pick.

Pee Wee was a VC pick.

Bagwell's start looks like someone who will wait a while and possibly be a VC pick. Given the glut and the attending issues, his best case scenario is an induction around 2025.
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