Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Saturday, May 17, 2014

Kernan: Jeter will continue to handle final lap changes with class

CAUTION! You are about to enter the No Range Zone!

Bill O’Reilly on Derek Jeter: “You’ll never see another Jeter again and here’s the reason: Derek Jeter epitomizes New York City and this is what I think people don’t see. Classy, first class all the way. Hustles, this is a hustling city.”

This is the Long Goodbye for Derek Jeter, but it’s also a final season of adjustments for the Hall of Fame shortstop.

How those adjustments go will be fascinating to watch as Yankees manager Joe Girardi makes his many moves.

That was evident in the bottom of the eighth inning of Thursday night’s 1-0 win over the Mets at Citi Field. When Girardi brought David Robertson in for the four-out save, he double-switched Jeter out of the game, replacing him with Brendan Ryan.

Girardi went directly to Jeter on the mound and told him of the switch and Jeter said, “OK, fine,’’ and went to the dugout.

David Wright then grounded to Ryan on the second pitch for the final out of the inning. The Yankees went on to win the game and as Jeter has said many times, that’s all that matters.

This is a new day for Jeter as he goes around baseball for his last season. Thursday’s game was being played in an National League park, so there was no designated hitter and managers just love to double switch, but removing Jeter from such a close game was a still a sight to behold.

As it turns out, Yangervis Solarte hit into a double play to end the top of the ninth, so Ryan never got to bat. Girardi, of course, did not want to have his closer, Robertson, bat fifth in the that inning.

Will there be a day soon when Girardi puts Ryan in for defense late in a game for Jeter?

Repoz Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:10 AM | 494 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 5 pages  1 2 3 4 5 > 
   1. shoelesjoe Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:17 AM (#4708654)
For some inexplicable reason my mind keeps seeing that headline as "final lap dances".
   2. BDC Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:22 AM (#4708657)
Will there be a day soon when Girardi puts Ryan in for defense late in a game for Jeter?


What other conceivable mortal justification could there possibly be for the sublunary existence of Brendan Ryan?
   3. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:06 AM (#4708662)
79 OPS+ so far for Jeter in 147 PA
Ryan? 458 OPS+
5 games, but only 2 PA, both singles

#samplesize

Jeter slips a career OPS+ pt to 116, same as McCann, Pedroia, A-Ram, Zobrist - and RAlomar, Caminiti, Larkin, Munson, etc

up next is 115: GCarter, Doerr, Kingman, McReynolds, Otis, Yount, etc
   4. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4708668)
You’ll never see another Jeter again and here’s the reason: Derek Jeter epitomizes New York City....


Maybe for now, but give New York time and even The Captain will probably be priced out of it.
   5. bjhanke Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4708670)
Why not? Ryan can actually play shortstop. What's more, he can play shortstop well. The Cardinals gave Stan Musial less-than-full playing time his last couple of seasons, resting against the pitchers who were most difficult for him. If it's good enough for Stan, It's sure good enough for Jeter. Also, aside from baseball, Jeter picks up every girl in sight, and tries to rescue his rep with gift baskets (which mostly makes the girls in question look like wh*res). Stan got married, stayed married, and never availed himself of any of the thousands of opportunities he surely had. There is no comparison between the two as players, nor as human beings. As you can probably figure out, I think that the deification of Jeter in this season's tour-du-cheering has gotten way past its ignore-by date. Stan just makes the comparisons easy, because Stan really DID have class. Jeter fans - Stan Musial is what "class" actually looks like. Willie Mays had class, too, although his competitiveness caused him to play a year or two when he really was pretty well washed up. Still classier than Jeter, by miles.

Huh. Howie's data, if I read them right, show Jeter as about equal, as a hitter, to some guys who are not in any Halls, a few guys whose decline phases have yet to appear or who died mid-career, and Carter, a hot glove catcher; Larkin, a hot glove SS, and Doerr, a REALLY hot glove 2B. (I'm not really willing to describe Robin Yount with any certainty). I'd have thought Derek had hit better. He, of course, is not going to gain any points for his glove. - Brock Hanke
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4708686)

Musial's personal reputation is way, way ahead of Willie Mays', fyi.
   7. Captain Supporter Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4708687)
Derek Jeter has received accolades from virtually everyone in baseball including teammates, former teammates, managers, and opponents. Bitter riva;s like Dustin Pedroia, David Ortiz and Pedro Martinez have been effusive in their praise about Jete, both as a ballplayer and a man. He has earned the right to be, and will be, Brock, a first ballot Hall of Famer. And not one person actually in baseball wwill complain about, not even off the record.

But Brock Hanke knows better. He is the expert in what constitutes class, and apparently also is tracking Derek's social life very carefully and providing his deathless wisdom about it because...well, perhaps because he lacks a certain amount of class himself.

   8. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4708696)
Dude, your favorite player is an overrated douche. Get over it.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:14 PM (#4708702)
Derek Jeter has received accolades from virtually everyone in baseball including teammates, former teammates, managers, and opponents. Bitter riva;s like Dustin Pedroia, David Ortiz and Pedro Martinez have been effusive in their praise about Jete, both as a ballplayer and a man. He has earned the right to be, and will be, Brock, a first ballot Hall of Famer. And not one person actually in baseball wwill complain about, not even off the record.

But Brock Hanke knows better. He is the expert in what constitutes class, and apparently also is tracking Derek's social life very carefully and providing his deathless wisdom about it because...well, perhaps because he lacks a certain amount of class himself.


One can be a classy professional on the field and still be a sleaze bag, or a jerk off the field. I mean DiMaggio epitomized baseball class, but was apparently a mean, nasty ####### IRL (cheap, an ingrate, etc.).
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4708710)

plus he dunked his Dinky Donuts
   11. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4708711)
Willie Mays had class, too

You must never have talked to too many people who tried to get his autograph. A former head of SABR that I bought books from, who's had lots of contact with pro ballplayers of every type, told me that the only player who interacted worse with fans was Mickey Mantle. In his words, "Mays is a jerk, but Mantle is a prick".

OTOH Musial was everything you say he is. When your enemies list solely consists of Murray Chass, you know you've got to be doing something right.
   12. Captain Supporter Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4708720)
By all accounts, Stan Musial was a gentleman both on and off the field. He certainly has my greatest respect. And Joe Dimaggio clearly had some character flaws

But to my knowledge, the only people who have decided that Derek Jeter is a sleaze bag or jerk off the field are not people who are actually acquainted with the man. Just some of the trolls on sites like this.

And Voxter, I rate the Captain just where he should be rated. He is not the best player who ever lived, but he is certainly one of the top 10 Yankees of all time. And as I said, he will jog right into the hall of Fame with over 90% of the vote. Its the people like you who call him overrated who are out of step.

   13. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4708723)
@5 - So let me get this straight. It is a character flaw for a single man to pick up women? And according to you, "give them gift baskets" when the consensual relationship has ended? Your entire rant is absurd. And I feel for you. And please, please spare us your narrow concept of morality. Bill James ranks Stan the Man 7th best player of All-Time. And it pretty much is a consensus opinion. So what's the problem? I got an idea, go have some fun.
   14. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4708724)
Howie's data, if I read them right, show Jeter as about equal, as a hitter, to some guys who are not in any Halls, a few guys whose decline phases have yet to appear or who died mid-career, and Carter, a hot glove catcher; Larkin, a hot glove SS, and Doerr, a REALLY hot glove 2B.

Jeter has had a much longer career than pretty much all of those guys, over 12,000 plate appearances. Alomar, Carter and Larkin had about 9,000, Doerr about 8,000, most of those other guys had fewer and/or, as you acknowledge, have not had a decline phase yet. When Jeter was 9,000 PA into his career, he had a 120 OPS+, and he was at 121 after the following season. You're holding it against him that he was very durable and kept playing and generating value, albeit at a lower rate, for an additional 3,000+ PA (not to mention an additional full season's worth of postseason games with an OPS that exceeds his regular season level).

At first glance, Yount is the only guy on that list who is really comparable in terms of career length, and he was a first ballot Hall of Famer.
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2014 at 01:04 PM (#4708731)
for reference, 121 OPS+s include Baines, Chili Davis, Manush, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Posada, Roy White. active 121s are Morneau and RZimmerman
   16. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: May 17, 2014 at 02:09 PM (#4708780)
Haters gonna hate.
   17. PreservedFish Posted: May 17, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4708782)
Brock's Puritan rant is hilarious when contrasted with (IIRC) his admiration of the sexual freedom of the goth subculture.
   18. Yellow Tango Posted: May 17, 2014 at 02:21 PM (#4708784)
I ####### hate Derek Jeter but comparing him to Chili Davis is just weird. Dude is overrated, but a deserving first-ballot Hall of Fame shortstop.
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4708786)

I'm not comparing Jeter to Chili Davis, just listed some interesting names along same axis. with Jeter's heavy OBP tilt, I imagine his 116 is about as good as power-hitter 121s? not even noting the longer career, postseason, etc
   20. Mike Emeigh Posted: May 17, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4708796)
It is not a contradiction to say that Derek Jeter is both (a) a HoF-caliber shortstop and (b) overrated. Like Cal Ripken, Jeter's overrated primarily because of narratives that have little to do with his actual value to his teams - but you're talking about a player who is, basically, Barry Larkin offensively with 3000 more PA, and who has played more games at SS than anyone other than Omar Vizquel. That should be an easy HoFer in anyone's book.

Not that I think anyone is arguing that Jeter is *not* a HoF player...I think that just as the arguments in Jeter's favor are overplayed, so are the arguments that are made in response, and we lose sight of what an outstanding player Jeter really has been.

-- MWE
   21. jdennis Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:06 PM (#4708798)
I am young and socially inept, but to me, honestly, Jeter does not come off as fully authentic. Do I think he's a POS? No, he's a regular guy, but he doesn't come off as significantly better than the rest. He seems like a guy who makes the right gestures and ticks off the boxes. That means something, I guess. But overall demeanor means a lot to me. Let me illustrate.

There are other guys they talk about being really great guys and great leaders, very intense guys. Tebow, I disagree with him but he appears to have the courage of his convictions, so I respect that, although I see some red flags. But my big example is Seau. There are guys like Seau praised for their intense leadership and charity work (there are a lot of these in football) but to me are just nuts. When I saw Seau's retirement speech I thought, "This guy is completely insane and he's going to kill somebody or himself soon." But on TV, it was about what an awesome guy he was. But to me it was so obvious that he was bad news, it literally scared me. Ray Lewis strikes me in a similar fashion, not as bad as Seau though. People that intense are not to be trusted, IMO.

Jeter is just not my style. Something just seems calculated about him.

I know nothing about Stan Musial as a person, but from what I've heard, he would be more "my style" of gentleman. I could be totally wrong on this, but my gentleman, while working and shutting the hell up and being generally moral and not judging people and all that, doesn't exploit opportunities to promote his image as a nice guy because that is hypocritical. Perhaps Musial managed to do this while being friendly to the media. I know if I was an MLB player, I wouldn't be mean to the media but I would not be able to be social with them. I would ignore them a lot and avoid them and they would probably say I was cold. Again, I'm to young to know anything about Stan Musial as a person.

And of course there is the media's large role in this. I mean TJ Oshie's comment at the Olympics is just one prime example. He was just trying to say an appropriate thing and the press deified him.
   22. Publius Publicola Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4708800)
I ####### hate Derek Jeter but comparing him to Chili Davis is just weird. Dude is overrated, but a deserving first-ballot Hall of Fame shortstop.


I don't think it's a diss to compare Jeter to a power hitting outfielder like Davis. Chili Davis was a heck of a player.
   23. Srul Itza Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:10 PM (#4708801)
While the Greatest Generation was preserving democracy and ending both the Nazi menace and the homicidal Japanese march through Asia -- where was Stan, again?

Just askin'.
   24. Publius Publicola Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4708802)
Jeter is just not my style. Something just seems calculated about him.


He comes off as one of those brownnose company men we all bump up against at the office, the type who suck up and get raises and promotions they don't really deserve. That's why he gets under everyone's skin.

   25. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4708806)
Wow. Multiple obnoxious points of view being presented in this thread.
   26. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4708813)
I'm not sure why there is such BBTF interest in Derek Jeter's social life, but the whole gift basket meme is based on anonymous reporting in the New York Post. Could be true, but I wouldn't believe everything I read on Page Six.
   27. bobm Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4708814)
Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2014, (requiring onbase_plus_slugging_plus>=115, and onbase_plus_slugging_plus<=117), sorted by greatest Offensive WAR

                                                       
Rk               Player oWAR WAA/pos OPS+ WAR/pos    PA
1           Derek Jeter 94.4    32.0  116    71.7 12115
2           Robin Yount 82.2    37.0  115    77.0 12249
3        Roberto Alomar 70.0    32.3  116    66.8 10400
4          Barry Larkin 67.5    42.2  116    70.2  9057
5          Lou Whitaker 67.1    42.5  117    74.9  9967
6          Carlton Fisk 65.7    35.1  117    68.3  9853
7           Gary Carter 55.6    39.8  115    69.9  9019
8             Ken Boyer 55.6    31.5  116    62.8  8272
9          Wally Schang 47.4    20.4  117    45.0  6430
10            Amos Otis 46.6    14.6  115    42.6  8247
11          Bobby Doerr 46.1    27.0  115    51.2  8028
12       Thurman Munson 42.9    25.4  116    45.9  5905
13       Aramis Ramirez 39.1     6.9  116    31.5  8075
14        Harlond Clift 39.0    16.9  116    39.1  6894
15         Jake Daubert 37.5    12.0  117    39.1  8746
16            Del Ennis 36.7     0.9  117    31.3  7943
17           Andy Pafko 36.6    10.5  117    36.7  7027
18        Mickey Vernon 36.5     4.9  116    34.5  9838
19         Steve Garvey 36.1     6.6  117    37.7  9466
20        Doug DeCinces 35.9    20.1  115    41.6  6534
21          Dusty Baker 35.0    10.8  116    36.9  8022
22      George Hendrick 34.6     2.4  117    28.9  7834
23           Ron Fairly 34.5     5.1  117    35.2  8437
24          Eric Chavez 33.7    15.4  115    37.1  6203
25         Ken Caminiti 33.2    11.2  116    33.3  7127
Rk               Player oWAR WAA/pos OPS+ WAR/pos    PA
26        Smoky Burgess 33.0    14.4  116    33.4  5012
27        Earl Torgeson 32.7    11.1  117    32.7  6046
28    Curtis Granderson 32.0    17.6  115    35.8  5208
29      Johnny Callison 32.0    11.2  115    38.4  7437
30           Bill White 31.9    13.4  116    38.6  6678
31        Walker Cooper 31.5    10.5  116    29.3  5076
32       Dustin Pedroia 31.4    23.9  116    39.6  4736
33       Reggie Sanders 31.2    18.0  115    39.6  7043
34         Wally Joyner 30.8     9.1  117    35.7  8115
35           Don Buford 30.7    18.5  115    36.3  5347
36              Lee May 28.7    -0.7  116    27.0  8219
37       Elbie Fletcher 28.7    11.7  117    32.3  5826
38     Kevin McReynolds 28.3     9.5  115    29.9  6039
39           Elmer Valo 28.3     9.7  115    28.4  6091
40        Dwayne Murphy 27.9    16.5  115    33.2  5242
41         Mike Stanley 26.7     3.9  117    21.0  4989
42        Jimmy Collins 25.8    15.0  116    30.3  4099
43         Nick Swisher 25.5     3.4  117    24.1  5828
44        Tillie Walker 25.5     3.5  115    25.4  5662
45          Ben Zobrist 25.2    18.9  116    32.9  4004
46         Brian McCann 24.8     9.9  116    23.6  4495
47          Solly Hemus 24.1    13.5  115    25.6  3251
48        Frank Schulte 24.0    -0.2  115    23.7  7417
49         Chief Meyers 23.6    13.7  117    24.0  3227
50    Edwin Encarnacion 23.1     1.7  117    16.6  4528
Rk               Player oWAR WAA/pos OPS+ WAR/pos    PA
51           John Stone 23.0     7.3  116    25.1  5008
52          Matt Stairs 22.8    -6.2  117    14.3  6024
53         Dave Kingman 22.8    -6.7  115    17.3  7429
54       Jesse Barfield 22.7    21.8  117    39.3  5394
55          Pat Burrell 22.5    -1.2  116    18.8  6520
56      Patsy Dougherty 22.5    -1.7  117    17.7  5109
57         Norm Siebern 21.6     4.6  117    20.9  5267
58         Jim Northrup 20.9     4.0  116    22.1  5215
59         Joe Ferguson 20.8     9.4  116    21.0  3624
60        Willie Keeler 20.7     0.5  115    19.0  5063
61         Sammy Strang 19.8     6.6  115    17.8  3344
62           Dan McGann 19.5     7.5  115    21.5  4141
63       Donn Clendenon 19.3     1.1  117    19.9  5112
64        John Anderson 19.3     3.7  115    19.8  4246
65      Willie Crawford 17.3     8.4  116    21.2  3926
66            Pete Ward 17.3     8.8  115    20.2  3512
67         Taffy Wright 16.7     4.4  115    16.8  3981
68           Corey Hart 16.0     3.8  115    15.8  3952
69      Charlie Maxwell 15.9     7.9  116    19.5  3796
70     Johnny Frederick 15.9     5.0  117    15.4  3364
71            Don Hurst 15.6     0.5  116    12.4  3762
72       Bob Fothergill 15.6     0.9  115    14.2  3581
73          Dick Stuart 14.8    -7.9  117     7.8  4363
74       Rick Reichardt 14.5     1.0  115    13.9  3685
75          Nelson Cruz 14.2     0.6  116    12.5  3350
Rk               Player oWAR WAA/pos OPS+ WAR/pos    PA
76          Gus Zernial 14.0    -4.5  116     9.4  4562
77        Mike Marshall 13.8    -3.4  115    10.0  3908
78         Curt Blefary 13.8    -0.8  115    11.1  3490
79           Joe Kelley 13.7     0.9  117    11.4  3107
80           Babe Young 13.2     1.3  117    11.3  2709
81         Ted Easterly 13.1     5.9  116    12.6  2191
82            John Jaha 13.0     1.1  116    12.4  3285
83            Dale Long 12.7    -2.1  115    10.3  3430
84           Sam Leslie 12.2     3.4  116    12.3  2714
85           Luke Scott 12.0     1.1  117    12.1  3193
86        Gary Roenicke 11.6     5.1  117    15.5  3204
87      John Wockenfuss 11.4    -0.7  115     7.2  2373
88             Jim Viox 11.4     3.3  116     9.8  1988
89       Dave Robertson 11.1     0.5  116    10.4  3032
90          Ray Sanders 10.8     2.5  115    10.8  2557
91       Emmet Heidrick 10.6     3.1  116    11.2  2216
92           Pat Mullin 10.5     1.3  115     9.8  2848
93         Harry Wolter 10.1     1.0  115     9.6  2247
94            John Jaso 10.0     3.3  117     8.3  1405
95         Johnny Rizzo  9.0     1.3  116     8.6  2075
96         Frank Brower  7.6     1.5  116     7.2  1531
97          Tim Hendryx  7.4     0.8  115     6.7  1546
98           Art Griggs  6.7    -0.9  115     4.8  1516
99         Brandon Moss  6.2    -1.3  117     4.4  1710
100      Bunk Congalton  5.0     0.8  116     5.6  1276
Rk               Player oWAR WAA/pos OPS+ WAR/pos    PA
101          Jimmy Ryan  4.9     1.1  115     4.8  1014
102        Butch Nieman  4.6     1.1  116     4.8  1183
103       Guy Curtright  4.5     0.8  115     4.4  1227
104           Yan Gomes  3.7     3.1  117     5.1   568
105           Ike Brown  3.4     0.7  116     3.0   644
106           Mike Carp  3.3    -0.9  116     2.3   900
107     George Anderson  2.5     0.6  115     2.5  1139
108     Scooter Gennett  2.4     1.2  117     2.4   369
109          Pete Scott  2.4     0.5  117     2.4   607
110      Joe Charboneau  2.3    -0.8  115     1.5   722
111      Danny Gardella  2.3     0.3  115     2.2   610
112      Chito Martinez  1.9     0.5  116     2.2   482
113         Eddie Eayrs  1.8     0.5  117     1.5   313
114          Pop Foster  1.8     0.1  115     1.8   477
115          Matt Adams  1.6     0.1  115     1.9   573
116      Paul Gillespie  1.4     0.6  115     1.3   229
117           Tex Vache  1.3    -0.3  115     0.7   283
118      Judge McCredie  1.0    -0.1  115     0.7   242
119            Joe Wood  0.9    -0.1  116     0.4   174
120          Randy Ruiz  0.8    -0.1  115     0.8   238
121        Bobby Brooks  0.8     0.3  115     1.0   174
122      Bucky Jacobsen  0.7     0.0  117     0.6   176
123   Cookie Cuccurullo  0.7     0.7  115     0.7    56
124         Irving Falu  0.6     0.3  116     0.6    95
125         John Harris  0.4    -0.4  116     0.1   131
Rk               Player oWAR WAA/pos OPS+ WAR/pos    PA
126            Cy Block  0.4     0.1  117     0.3    60
127        Barney Olsen  0.4    -0.1  117     0.2    78
128      Steve Randolph  0.3     0.3  115     0.3    16
129         Gerry Davis  0.3    -0.0  116     0.2    82
130       Lum Davenport  0.3     0.3  116     0.3    23
131    Michael Hollimon  0.2     0.2  116     0.2    25
132         John Hattig  0.2     0.2  117     0.3    29
133         Gail Henley  0.2    -0.1  115     0.1    36
134        Bobby Coombs  0.2     0.2  117     0.2    10
135       Max Rosenfeld  0.2    -0.6  115    -0.4    59
136         Swat McCabe  0.2    -0.1  117     0.1    48
137      Andy Cannizaro  0.1    -0.1  115    -0.0    10
138          Matt Macri  0.1    -0.2  116    -0.1    36
139        Walter Young  0.1    -0.0  115     0.1    37
140          Wenty Ford  0.1     0.1  116     0.1     5
141         Bob Wellman  0.1     0.0  117     0.1    28
142         Rudy Miller  0.1    -0.0  115    -0.0     7
143       Vince Shields  0.1     0.1  117     0.1     5
144           Joe Walsh  0.1     0.0  116     0.1    13
145      Chief Chouneau  0.1     0.1  115     0.1     3
146        Mike Konnick  0.1     0.0  116     0.1    10
   28. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4708817)
The big question to me is, why Jeter gets lionized for being such a great person, beyond being a great player. Has he really been a better teammate than Michael Cuddyer or Will Venable or LaTroy Hawkins or Julio Franco or Jason Giambi or Yorvit Torrealba or Juan Pierre or a hundred other guys who won't get 1 percent of the tongue-bathing lavished upon Jeter? Celebrate his career as a ballplayer, but all this business about what a class act he is strikes me as unseemly.
   29. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4708819)
AFAIC Jeter's been exemplary in his conduct from the time he enters the stadium to the time he leaves it. And other than acting off the field like probably 90% of the straight men his age would act if they were in his position, what's he ever done to offend anyone? Musial is so much of an exception among true superstars that it's hard to think of any other one like him.

Sure, Jeter's corporate and has mastered the fine art of saying nothing, but so has Cal, so has Jordan, so has Elway, and so has nearly every jock whose performances are such to attract major advertisers. I'd love it if players in his position were more like (say) Schilling or Bouton or Doug Glanville, outspoken on issues outside the playing field, but that's kind of setting the bar a bit high for the average superstar jock, isn't it? And anyway, why do ballplayers have to fit into any one particular type of human being?
   30. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4708821)
The big question to me is, why Jeter gets lionized for being such a great person, beyond being a great player. Has he really been a better teammate than Michael Cuddyer or Will Venable or LaTroy Hawkins or Julio Franco or Jason Giambi or Yorvit Torrealba or Juan Pierre or a hundred other guys who won't get 1 percent of the tongue-bathing lavished upon Jeter?

Blame the media for the overkill. It's not something that Jeter has sought out. Or do you think that he's been sending gift baskets to all those teammates and opponents who've been saying those nice things about him?
   31. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4708822)
Blame the media for the overkill. It's not something that Jeter has sought out.


No, Jeter has absolutely sought it out. He could have chosen to retire as Todd Helton did last year - announcing it a month before the end of the season, in time for the home folks to do something nice for him. Instead, he chose to retire as Mariano Rivera did - announcing it before the season started so that every city he played in would feel obligated to celebrate All Things Jeter.
   32. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4708824)
Stan got married, stayed married, and never availed himself of any of the thousands of opportunities he surely had.


You haven't the foggiest clue who Stan Musial slept with, so please stop pretending that you do.

This is particularly silly when comparing the media back in Musial's day -- which generally was smaller and kept things under wraps -- with the media climate of today, where not only does the media report on this stuff but you have a billion other people with phones and cameras and twitter accounts selling their stories to TMZ.

Huh. Howie's data, if I read them right, show Jeter as about equal, as a hitter, to some guys who are not in any Halls, a few guys whose decline phases have yet to appear or who died mid-career, and Carter, a hot glove catcher; Larkin, a hot glove SS, and Doerr, a REALLY hot glove 2B. (I'm not really willing to describe Robin Yount with any certainty). I'd have thought Derek had hit better. He, of course, is not going to gain any points for his glove. - Brock Hanke


A straight OPS+ comparison with non-SS's is pretty well useless. Jeter obviously had a much better career than most of the guys on that list.
   33. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:07 PM (#4708825)
And anyway, why do ballplayers have to fit into any one particular type of human being?


They don't. But at the same time I think we get to call BS on the over the top ball washing and moralizing that a guy like Jeter gets. I have no particular problem with Jeter beyond his uniform but I don't see him as being a particularly great person either.
   34. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4708826)
I've told this story before, but I once found myself sitting next to Jeter's parents at a Yankee game. They were friendly, intelligent, generally a pleasure to watch a game with. I strongly doubt that Jeter is secretly an epic #######.
   35. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4708827)
It is not a contradiction to say that Derek Jeter is both (a) a HoF-caliber shortstop and (b) overrated. Like Cal Ripken, Jeter's overrated primarily because of narratives that have little to do with his actual value to his teams -


Exactly. Jeter is a clear and solid HOFer, whose reputation has been far overblown because he was on the Yankees in the late 90s.

Had, oh, Jhonny Peralta been on the late '90s Yankees he would have had just as many Big Hits as Jeter did -- and in fact we did see many mediocre, nondescript players (although Peralta is better than that) be anointed Super God Clutch Heroes by silly Yankees fans. Players like Scott Brosius, who Yankees fans Know, just Know, had that Special Clutch Something (and a meager .697 OPS in the playoffs). The silliness of this postseason clutch fairy stuff knows no bounds, and Jeter has been one of the several recipients of it. Jeter had many skills as a ballpayer, but "being on the right team at the right time" was not one of them.

The Yankees' late 90s run was, and will remain so, one of the greatest team-flukes of all time. As evidenced by the fact that most of the Clutch Gods were still there for years after -- including Jeter, Pettitte (except for three years), Posada, and Rivera -- and yet they for the next eight seasons these Famous Clutch Fairies ended up getting ousted from the playoffs year after year after year, including suffering two huge Series losses.
   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4708831)
I'm not sure why there is such BBTF interest in Derek Jeter's social life, but the whole gift basket meme is based on anonymous reporting in the New York Post. Could be true, but I wouldn't believe everything I read on Page Six.


On the other hand, I've met women in NYC who confirm first hand the generally accepted narrative of his social life. Not that there's anything wrong with it.
   37. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:30 PM (#4708833)
The big question to me is, why Jeter gets lionized for being such a great person, beyond being a great player. Has he really been a better teammate than Michael Cuddyer or Will Venable or LaTroy Hawkins or Julio Franco or Jason Giambi or Yorvit Torrealba or Juan Pierre or a hundred other guys who won't get 1 percent of the tongue-bathing lavished upon Jeter? Celebrate his career as a ballplayer, but all this business about what a class act he is strikes me as unseemly.


The "class" narrative stems from:

1) Being on the late '90s Yankees.
2) Being a great player.
3) Not getting into any legal trouble (high bar, there).
4) Knowing how to play the media (basically: "Don't ever say anything in an interview; the media is too dumb to realize you didn't actually say anything.")

Honestly, the only time I can ever recall Jeter saying anything edgy in an interview is some of the comments he made during the last round of contract negotiations four years ago, after he was upset with the way the Yankees were treating him, something to the effect that "this is a business." Yeah, that's about as edgy as he ever got.

On the other hand it's clear that he was part of the Yankee Cabal (led by Joe Torre but also with future managerial candidate Jason Giambi playing a lead role) in the scapegoating of ARod for the Yankees failures in the postseason, culminating in Torre batting ARod 8th in that playoff game.

Also, Jeter didn't offer to move to 3B for ARod, to my knowledge, and yet it was Gary Sheffield who did.

The picture, as always, is complex, not simple.
   38. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4708834)
AFAIC Jeter's been exemplary in his conduct from the time he enters the stadium to the time he leaves it. And other than acting off the field like probably 90% of the straight men his age would act if they were in his position, what's he ever done to offend anyone?


The SI article detailing his early treatment of ARod, a fellow teammate, says otherwise.
   39. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4708835)
Blame the media for the overkill. It's not something that Jeter has sought out.


He did seek it out, as evidenced by him never saying anything of substance in an interview, choosing to play the Classy Captain role instead. And if there were ever any doubt, he's now chosen to go out Mo Rivera style, he of the Six Million Bows before I finally leave.
   40. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4708838)
I don't think it's a diss to compare Jeter to a power hitting outfielder like Davis. Chili Davis was a heck of a player.


It certainly is a diss, when the player being compared to the "heck of a player" is in fact a truly great player.

Kevin, please for once in your life try to analyze a Yankees or Red Sox player objectively. It is the height of silliness to let a player's laundry dictate your analysis of the player's value.

   41. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4708840)
. . . he chose to retire as Mariano Rivera did - announcing it before the season started so that every city he played in would feel obligated to celebrate All Things Jeter.

Jeter & Rivera were not the first players to announce that the upcoming season would be their last. I don't remember other players being hated on for such announcements, but perhaps I'm misremembering how hateful some petty people can be. When star players reach a certain age, they are constantly asked about their retirement plans. While players aren't obligated to disclose their retirement plans before they choose to do so, why would we fault a player for being honest? And AFAIK, no one is requiring opposing teams to honor Jeter. They do it because it they recognize Jeter's contributions to the game, as do the fans who have regularly cheered Jeter on the road this season - standing ovations even.
   42. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4708841)
A straight OPS+ comparison with non-SS's is pretty well useless. Jeter obviously had a much better career than most of the guys on that list.

Just from a curiosity standpoint, how good was Jeter offensively. oWAR has positional adjustments backed in and OPS+ underrates OBP.

Turning bb-ref's "Rbat" into a rate stat and using a 7500 PA cutoff, you get the following neighborhood for Jeter:

Player                 PA      Rbat/600PA
Eddie Murray          12817     18.341
Derrek Lee             7963     18.339
Ron Santo              9397     18.287
George Sisler          9012     18.258
George Van Haltren     9017     18.162
Bob Elliott            8205     18.140
Cy Williams            7725     18.084
Derek Jeter           12115     18.075
Brian Downing          9309     17.983
Kirby Puckett          7831     17.961
George Foster          7812     17.703
Don Mattingly          7722     17.642
Paul Molitor          12167     17.332


He's between Murray & Molitor for the long-career guys. A few other HOF-ers, several HOVG types. Chili Davis is at 13.085. Jeter is an easy HOF as a SS, but he'd be borderline as an OF/DH as well.

Plus, he was a good baserunning. That's not in Rbat.

   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4708842)
And other than acting off the field like probably 90% of the straight men his age would act if they were in his position, what's he ever done to offend anyone?

I think the issue is not that he sleeps with a lot of women, no one ever seemed to get pissed about Ruth or Mantle doing that.

It's the modus operandi we've heard about. He has lackeys approach/procure the women for him, so he never risks being rejected. Add the gift basket thing, and that's seriously creepy.
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4708843)
It's the modus operandi we've heard about. He has lackeys approach/procure the women for him, so he never risks being rejected.


I suspect this is standard operating procedure for many celebrities. Here's something from Andy Roddick's wiki page:

It was while Roddick was watching a show on the CNN/Sports Illustrated website called She Says Z says that he first noticed Brooklyn Decker,[53] to whom he is now married. (According to Decker, as she stated in an interview with David Letterman, Roddick had his agent contact her agent to arrange an initial meeting.) The two began dating in 2007, and on March 31, 2008, Roddick announced on his website that he and Decker had become engaged. The couple were married on April 17, 2009 in Austin, Texas


Besides, this is basically what professional matchmakers do. (And they do exist.) Except that in that case both people have the same agent.

Regardless, a guy like Jeter will get rejected a much smaller percentage of the time than a regular guy. I doubt it would bother him that much; it's sort of like striking out at the plate. You have a lot of successes and you're batting .320 so who cares about the strikeouts?
   45. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4708844)
Using (Rbat+Rbaser)/600 PA increases him to 20.782 which bumps him up the list relative to slower sluggers.

I'm not going to type out a table again, but the players near him are:

Cepeda, Colavito, Keeler, Molitor, MAlou, Palmeiro, Cuyler, JETER, Cedeno, Olerud, Duffy, Beltran, DwEvans, Wheat, Ordonez, KHernandez, Rice, BWilliams, Sosa, Torre, Yaz
   46. PreservedFish Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4708848)
And other than acting off the field like probably 90% of the straight men his age would act if they were in his position, what's he ever done to offend anyone?


We don't know if this isn't true, actually, because his bachelorhood apparently makes him unusual among ballplayers.

Regardless, Jeter has never struck me as a brownnose, or a jerk, or a greasy character. He seems like a genuinely good guy. Of course we don't really know - I would have said the same about Tiger Woods.
   47. Squash Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:32 PM (#4708853)
And other than acting off the field like probably 90% of the straight men his age would act if they were in his position, what's he ever done to offend anyone?

I'm not sure why everyone always reverts to this position. Most men, especially by their late 30s if not significantly before, hunger for some sort of intimate emotional relationship with a person.

EDIT: Partial coke to PreservedFish.
   48. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4708857)
I'm not sure why everyone always reverts to this position. Most men, especially by their late 30s if not significantly before, hunger for some sort of intimate emotional relationship with a person.


Most men in their late 30s can't still get hot women in their early 20s to sleep with them, if they ever could, which is one reason why they begin "hungering" for some sort of emotional relationship.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to judge Jeter's social life from the perspective of average Joe Blow. George Brett is probably a better model.
   49. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4708861)
The "class" narrative stems from:

1) Being on the late '90s Yankees.
2) Being a great player.
3) Not getting into any legal trouble (high bar, there).
4) Knowing how to play the media (basically: "Don't ever say anything in an interview; the media is too dumb to realize you didn't actually say anything.")


That's pretty much it, though it doesn't completely explain the extent of admiration he seems to get from pretty much everyone associated with the game. Whatever the reasons, he and Mo seem to have gotten more tributes from opposing players than just about any retiring player since Cal left a decade ago.

Maybe Dodger fans can jog my memory, but when the Garvey God was at his peak of lionization by the media---and it was a pretty damned high peak, before all the #### hit the fan---I don't remember the media gushing about him being echoed by all that many teammates and opponents. A-Rod may not have too many good things to say about Jeter, but it's not as if A-Rod hasn't brought a lot of his problems on himself.
   50. BDC Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4708862)
his bachelorhood apparently makes him unusual among ballplayers

I can think of a few great baseball stars, though, who deferred marriage till their careers were over, sometimes at the risk of attracting rumors that they were gay (Mike Piazza, Roberto Alomar). George Brett is in that category. (COKE TO RAY!) Long ago, Charlie Gehringer didn't get married because he didn't want to abandon his aged mother; but when she died, he did marry and stayed married for the next 40 years. It makes some sense (athlete's marriages can be super-stressful), and if anything one might admire the professionalism of such players.
   51. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4708866)
It doesn't make a lot of sense to judge Jeter's social life from the perspective of average Joe Blow. George Brett is probably a better model.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Put Brett in the New York of the 21st century, or put Jeter in the Kansas City of the 70's and 80's without the internet or the Twitterati, and you probably wouldn't even notice the difference between them.
   52. DKDC Posted: May 17, 2014 at 05:56 PM (#4708871)
Like Cal Ripken, Jeter's overrated primarily because of narratives that have little to do with his actual value to his teams


I agree that Captain Clutch and the Iron Man get excessive accolades because of their narratives. But offsetting that, Ripken's defense is extremely underrated by many fans I've talked to, while Jeter's defense is overrated (although the sabermetric drumbeat has had some success turning back that tide in recent years).

So only one of these guys is overrated, in my opinion. But despite being overrated, Jeter was a great player who had a great career and belongs in the Hall of Fame.
   53. PreservedFish Posted: May 17, 2014 at 06:12 PM (#4708879)
It doesn't make a lot of sense to judge Jeter's social life from the perspective of average Joe Blow. George Brett is probably a better model.


Why not Ken Griffey Jr, who got married in his early 20s? Maybe I'm wrong but my impression is that most ballplayers are married, certainly by Jeter's age.

I looked up the following prominent Yankees. Not a cherrypicked list, just big Yanks that popped into my head.

Paul O'Neill got married when he was 21. Mariano Rivera, 22. Bernie Williams, 22. Jorge Posada, 29. Andy Pettitte, 20. Mark Teixeira, 22. Roger Clemens, 22. Jason Giambi, 27 ... and 31! Mike Mussina, 29. ARod, 27. Tino Martinez, 24. Robinson Cano: single!
   54. Hank G. Posted: May 17, 2014 at 06:14 PM (#4708881)
No, Jeter has absolutely sought it out. He could have chosen to retire as Todd Helton did last year - announcing it a month before the end of the season, in time for the home folks to do something nice for him. Instead, he chose to retire as Mariano Rivera did - announcing it before the season started so that every city he played in would feel obligated to celebrate All Things Jeter.


My very cynical opinion is that the pre-season retirement announcement was more about making it hard for the Yankees to bench him that to get the grand farewell tour. If he had not made it clear that this was going to be his last season, management may have felt less constraint about pointing out that he was finished.
   55. BDC Posted: May 17, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4708885)
In 1983, IIRC, both Johnny Bench and Carl Yastrzemski made it clear early on in the season that they wouldn't play another, and were made honorary All-Stars (perhaps captains too?) as well as given what farewell-tour notoriety obtained in those long-ago media-poor times :)

There just aren't many players like that: HOFers long associated with one team who consciously decide early in or before a season to retire while they've got a little left. They have usually gotten some attention.
   56. Repoz Posted: May 17, 2014 at 07:07 PM (#4708902)
what's he ever done to offend anyone?

Now stepping to the plate...the Sheppard family.
   57. Walt Davis Posted: May 17, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4708909)
I don't object (not do I think anybody really does) to Jeter announcing his retirement pre-season. And, from his personal perspective and the team's perspective, I'd imagine it's a lot better than having to answer the question constantly throughout the year, have speculation as he gets off to a bad start, generate "is this the beginning of the end?" headlines when Girardi swaps in Ryan.

I just think this year-long goodbye by every team is over the top.

On the various comps ... you've got to adjust for career length. From a batting-only perspective, #42 is find except you've clearly got to adjust for the decline phase of Molitor, Murray and Jeter. Most of the players in that list have roughly equal career lengths (+/- a season of 8500 PA).

Murray in particular gets killed on a career basis as he just wasn't very good after age 34. But through 34, he had 396 Rbat in 9125 PA. That's a pace of 26 Rbat/600 PA and he clearly is miles ahead of the others on this list. In his last 3700 PA he produced -5 Rbat.

Jeter is pretty close to that too, from 23-35, he had 9104 PA and 359 Rbat (and 59 base + dp). That's 23.7 or 27.5 if you include the running.

Molitor's career is not so easily divided as he produced little from 26-29 but plenty before and after. Still from 22-37 he had 345 Rbat (+64) in 9128 PA -- almost exactly the same as Jeter.

To put those numbers in some perspective, from 20-35, Griffey had 437 (+30) in 8566 PA or 30.6/600. These guys were roughly as close to Griffey as they were to Derrek Lee.

Now as to Jeter ... he's a challenging player to evaluate (other than just ranking him by WAR which is easy of course). His offense alone is more Billy Williams (24.3 per 600 plus 31 in other during his best 8800 PA), relatively easily elected but borderline HoFer (by BBWAA standards). The first complaint about that comp of course is that Jeter was a SS and Williams a LF. But Jeter was a really, really bad SS. By dWAR, Williams was -14 in that prime while Jeter was -5. That's a clear advantage for Jeter but it's not OMG HoF LF offense at SS level.

Jeter is alone in being allowed to play SS at such awful levels. Of course most of those guys moved off of SS as their defense declined also couldn't hit like Jeter so it's hard to say if they would have been kept at SS if they could. The others that come to mind were pretty much all moved due to injury. The closest comp in this regard is probably Ripken but dWAR has him as an above-average defender in his last season at SS.

If you look at players with similarly negative dWAR, you do turn up a handful of long-career corner players -- Rice, Gehrig, Musial, Raines, Waner. The most obvious comp to Jeter on that list is Raines.

DJ 312/380/445, 116 OPS+, 427 oRAR, 72 WAR in 12000 PA
TR 294/385/425, 123 OPS+, 414 oRAR, 69 WAR in 10000 PA

That's as close as you can realistically get although Jeter probably ekes out the win if you adjust out his 2000 extra PA.

Again, "Tim Raines at SS" sounds incredibly awesome. But the actual Tim Raines at SS significantly less so. Jeter is more the latter than the former.
   58. KT's Pot Arb Posted: May 17, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4708916)
The most irritating thing about Jeter is how classy he's behaved in public, sure he's been overrated but he gives us nothing else to slag him with other than sleeping with too many pretty girls. The gift baskets can't be a demerit, the typical Mantle like lunkheads don't even acknowledge the girls after. As trivial as a gift basket is, wanting to send girls off with some acknowledgement is being thoughtful, even if it's a bit lazy how he does it.

And how he treats A-Rod is his business, after A-Rod ripped his friend in SI before they were team-mates.

And Jeter is a borderline HOFer by WAA. He's been a very good but rarely great player who happened to play on the right team. A Willie Randolph who picked the right Yankee era.
   59. Walt Davis Posted: May 17, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4708924)
Wow ... finally something Ray and Andy agree on ...promiscuous celebrity sex!
   60. bjhanke Posted: May 17, 2014 at 08:29 PM (#4708932)
Howie (#6) - You are almost certainly right about Mays (I know a LOT more about Musial than Mays), but I knew I was going to pick up some pretty serious opposition, and I can't, this time, even complain about ad hominem, so I wanted to take the race card out of the discussion.

I've lived in STL all my life (born 1947), and I was a baseball writer for 7 years (after Musial retired). It was amazing to find out just how easy it was to find out about Musial's personal life. For one thing, it was boring and repetitive by most standards. For another, neither the team nor Stan tried to hide anything, because there was nothing to hide. I got to ask people like Bing Devine and Bob Broeg about Stan (Red Schoendienst will talk about Stan any time anyone asks), in circumstances where I knew they felt free to say anything negative that they wanted, because I wasn't going to pass it on. They were both, essentially, in awe of the man as a person, and they were in position to know everything. And besides, everybody, including the few people who might have a reason to have a grudge, said the man was this type of person and no other, So, no, I'm not buying the idea that I don't know anything about Musial's personal life. It was open, freely discussed, and everyone who knew him personally had the same opinion.

There are three negatives to Musial that I know of:

1) He smoked cigars, although his wife would not let him do that in the house; he had a special "smoking porch."

2) He was passive and reactive, rather than assertive and proactive, sort of similar to Charlie Gehringer. If you read racial stories about him, this shows up. Curt Flood had to get refused admittance to Musial and Biggie's restaurant, and then ask Stan what that was about, to get the policy changed. But it was changed the next day. The Cardinals went, probably in 1958, to spring training, only to find that the hotel did not admit blacks. Gussie Busch, to his credit, got a friend to buy a hotel in the area. Ken Boyer and Musial, the team's biggest stars at the time, moved out of their cushy beach cabanas into hotel rooms, as a show of solidarity. But that didn't happen until the issue was already in play. Musial would play anywhere his manager asked him to, even when it was an obviously lousy decision, without complaint, either public pr private. The most assertive thing Musial did was go to an early-50s All-Star Game, get in the clubhouse, and realize that all the black guys were together in one corner, playing poker. Stan mosied over and asked if he could sit in. As Mays tells it, the black guys figured out instantly that Musial had no idea how to play poker. He was just trying to make the black guys feel included. In the interview where Mays disclosed this, he then leaned over into the interviewer's face and said, "We never forgot that."

3) He was not a vocal team cheerleader type of leader. His leadership was things like taking extra batting practice when he was STAN MUSIAL. Curt Flood mentions this as the biggest leadership that Musial showed. Flood reasoned that if STAN MUSIAL wanted extra batting practice, then maybe Curt Flood should have some of that, as well. Ken Boyer, and then Bob Gibson, were the dominant leaders on the Musial teams of my memory. I might ask a bit more out of my inner-circle HoFer.

And that's it for negatives.

As for Jeter, I admit that I respond extremely badly to the gift baskets. I don't respond badly to alternative sexual lifestyles - I've been in open relationships, had one-night stands, the whole thing. But I've never even considered giving a one-nighter any sort of present. It gives me the creeps just to think of it. You MIGHT do that about date 2 or 3 as your way of saying, "I'm starting to get serious and thinking about a relationship. I'm asking you to make a decision reasonably soon." And still. I'd choose roses every time. Goths NEVER would consider giving a gift basket to a one-night stand. They would consider doing that to be an insult. I've had some Goth one-nighters. This one I know from personal experience.

SRUL - The military question is VERY fair, especially since the Cards won pennants in 1943 and 44. I'm not an expert on WWII draft rules, but I think he may have gotten an early deferment for having children born before Pearl Harbor. Or maybe they didn't like the pitching arm that got injured in the minors. Not sure. In 1945, of course, he was actually in the military, so it's not as if he "dodged" the draft or anything. But it is a fair question.

RAY (#5) says, "Exactly. Jeter is a clear and solid HOFer, whose reputation has been far overblown because he was on the Yankees in the late 90s." I agree completely. I know that Ray does not agree with everything I say on this subject, but he produced about as good a one-sentence summary as I can imagine.

Odd weirdness that showed up in a comment here. For about 40 years, I've known a woman in Kansas City who worked as one of the late-night phone-call answering service people that you have when no answering machine can handle all the messages you get. She said that approximately half of all night-time calls received by the ENTIRE service were calls from girls looking for George Brett. This was, of course, when he was playing.

But, really, my big problem here, and the reason why I can't object to any ad hominem attacks I get, is that Derek Jeter gets treated like he was at least the player and the human being that Musial was: Mother Teresa as a human, or Babe Ruth as a player. I finally had all of this I could take, so I ended up ranting. I can't complain about ad hominem rants when I wrote one myself that got the party started. - Brock Hanke
   61. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2014 at 08:47 PM (#4708943)
"It was amazing to find out just how easy it was to find out about Musial's personal life. For one thing, it was boring and repetitive by most standards. For another, neither the team nor Stan tried to hide anything, because there was nothing to hide."

pretty true, and another layer.
it is very fair to question whether a writer, even one with a good relationship with a player, really "knows" him.
his pals do know these guys to a deeper level. not enough that they can't be fooled, too, but it is a bit less likely.

Tiger Woods, I knew long before that blowup that he was despised by PGA Tour people from top to bottom. Similar to countless people, even me, knowing Gov McGreevey is gay long before the "reveal."

have not asked any people in the know re Yankees about whether the public press matches the real guy, to the extent that they know.
   62. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2014 at 08:54 PM (#4708946)
Shorter #60: Musial was great, but Jeter isn't because of what the NY Post Page Six column wrote about his social life.
   63. BDC Posted: May 17, 2014 at 09:16 PM (#4708955)
Srul and Brock, from what I've read of Musial's biographies – admittedly third-hand knowledge compared to Brock's wonderful account – there is nothing at all to carp at WRT his war service either. He wasn't drafted till after the 1944 season because he was married with young dependent children, and also because he worked in the wire factory in Donora in the off-season, a priority industry. He spent most of his Navy service in 1945 playing baseball, but that wasn't much different from how Johnny Mize and Enos Slaughter spent their longer hitches, to stay just with Cardinal stars. Quite a few ballplayers split their war duty between being PT instructors and playing for various service teams, particularly those who had achieved stardom before they were drafted (Joe DiMaggio the best-known case). I'd argue that that should be seen for exactly what it was: neither sentimentalized as Greatest Generation ultra-heroism, nor sneered at. They did what they were asked, as any number of support troops did, and they deserve respect for that.
   64. bobm Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:26 PM (#4708975)
Jeter is a borderline HOFer by WAA

He is low on WAA per PA (not so bad on a per G basis). Vizquel is not a HoFer by WAA.

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2014, Hall Of Fame Members (as mlb players), Played 50% of games at SS, sorted by greatest WAA Position Players


                                                                      
Rk              Player WAA/pos    G    PA    H  HR   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS
1         Honus Wagner    82.2 2299  9640 2766  78 .325 .392 .462 .853
2           Cal Ripken    53.1 3001 12883 3184 431 .276 .340 .447 .788
3         Arky Vaughan    47.3 1817  7722 2103  96 .318 .406 .453 .859
4         Barry Larkin    42.2 2180  9057 2340 198 .295 .371 .444 .815
5         Lou Boudreau    42.2 1646  7024 1779  68 .295 .380 .415 .795
6          Ozzie Smith    41.6 2573 10778 2460  28 .262 .337 .328 .666
7         Luke Appling    41.5 2422 10254 2749  45 .310 .399 .398 .798
8          Robin Yount    37.0 2856 12249 3142 251 .285 .342 .430 .772
9           Joe Cronin    35.9 2124  8840 2285 170 .301 .390 .468 .857
10       Pee Wee Reese    31.7 2166  9470 2170 126 .269 .366 .377 .743
11          Joe Tinker    30.5 1806  7153 1690  31 .262 .308 .353 .661
12       Bobby Wallace    28.6 1743  6902 1618  10 .262 .325 .336 .661
13          Joe Sewell    23.1 1903  8333 2226  49 .312 .391 .413 .804
14       Dave Bancroft    23.1 1913  8249 2004  32 .279 .355 .358 .714
15      Travis Jackson    22.7 1657  6680 1768 135 .291 .337 .433 .770
16        George Davis    22.4  990  4056  937  13 .265 .336 .345 .680
17        Phil Rizzuto    20.8 1661  6719 1588  38 .273 .351 .355 .706
18       Luis Aparicio    20.4 2601 11230 2677  83 .262 .311 .343 .653
19   Rabbit Maranville     7.6 2670 11254 2605  28 .258 .318 .340 .658


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/17/2014.

ETA: Ernie Banks ~35 WAA as SS

For comparison:

                                                                 
         Player WAA/pos    PA    G    H  HR   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS
    Derek Jeter    32.0 12115 2635 3349 257 .312 .380 .445 .825
   Omar Vizquel     5.0 12013 2968 2877  80 .272 .336 .352 .688


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/17/2014.
   65. bjhanke Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:37 PM (#4708976)
BDC - Thanks. I didn't know the details. I thought it might have been children, because some of the veterans in MLB got exempted completely. Apparently, the rule had something to do with the ages of the kids, but they did have to have been born before Pearl Harbor.

Also, I finally remembered the title of a movie. Fast Times at Ridgemont High, remembered mostly for Sean Penn's hilarious performance as a high school stoner. But check the movie out and look for roses. You will see gift baskets from the point of view of the girl. And the guy who makes the horrible mistake has NOTHING like Derek Jeter's experience, and the whole scene is not as commercially-oriented as a Derek Jeter one-nighter seems to be (girls come looking for ballplayers; see George Brett above). But, as several Jeter lovers have pointed out, the sources of the gift basket stories are not exactly perfect, although everyone has had a LOT of years to expose it if it's a complete urban legend. And no one that I know of has ever even questioned it. In any case, that's what creeps me out. That rose scene. The girl does not respond well. The rest of my disgust is seeing Jeter get the same level, or more, of adulation as Musial and several other, greater players and people. - Brock
   66. Morty Causa Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:39 PM (#4708977)
There was some controversy with Mantle and the Korean War. Many, especially in the press, felt that if he could play baseball, he could be a soldier. Mantle kind of said, if they draft me, I'll go; if they don't, I won't go. But he took heat.

And Ted Williams only enlisted because he was going to be drafted, and he had resisted all exhortations to go early.

There are few James Stewarts or Henry Fondas or Bob Fellers or Hank Greenbergs (although with Hank it's a little more complicated). Not to mention John Fords and George Stevens and Frank Capras. Most are like John Wayne. They wait to be drafted. If they aren't, they don't go

There just aren't many players like that: HOFers long associated with one team who consciously decide early in or before a season to retire while they've got a little left. They have usually gotten some attention.

Ted Williams announced early 1960 would be his last season, AND that he didn't want a big hoopla made of it. Despite that, I think many opposing organizations did do something for him. Of course, in eras of much lower salaries, those things meant more than they do now.
   67. Publius Publicola Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:54 PM (#4708980)
Most are like John Wayne. They wait to be drafted. If they aren't, they don't go.


Ford gave Wayne a lot of crap about that afterward.
   68. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 17, 2014 at 10:56 PM (#4708981)
Ted Williams announced early 1960 would be his last season, AND that he didn't want a big hoopla made of it. Despite that, I think many opposing organizations did do something for him.

Far more will attend Derek Jeter's final Fenway game than were there to bid adieu to Ted Williams.
   69. Morty Causa Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:08 PM (#4708982)
Ford gave Wayne a lot of crap about that afterward.

He sure did. He never let Wayne forget it. Ford took his military service and his commitment seriously. And he didn't think John Wayne's making all those war movies made up for his not enlisting.
   70. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:23 PM (#4708985)
There was some controversy with Mantle and the Korean War. Many, especially in the press, felt that if he could play baseball, he could be a soldier. Mantle kind of said, if they draft me, I'll go; if they don't, I won't go. But he took heat.

But completely unfairly. He took the draft physical 3 or 4 times and was declared 4-F every time, due to his history of chronic knee and bone injuries that dated back to when he was in high school. OTOH Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio waited a full year after Pearl Harbor to enlist in WWII. As you point out, the Jimmy Stewarts and Hank Greenbergs in the big time entertainment and sports worlds were nowhere near as numerous as revisionist histories would have it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Far more will attend Derek Jeter's final Fenway game than were there to bid adieu to Ted Williams.

Well, Boston fans know class when they see it, and anyway, they never did like being spit at. (/ducks)

More seriously, it's only been in recent decades that final games for players or stadiums ever attracted capacity crowds. The crowd for the final game at the original Yankee Stadium in 1973 wouldn't have filled Fenway Park.
   71. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:35 PM (#4708986)
Honus Wagner another baseball bachelor who married shortly after hanging them up.
   72. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:36 PM (#4708987)
But, really, my big problem here, and the reason why I can't object to any ad hominem attacks I get, is that Derek Jeter gets treated like he was at least the player and the human being that Musial was: Mother Teresa as a human, or Babe Ruth as a player. I finally had all of this I could take, so I ended up ranting. I can't complain about ad hominem rants when I wrote one myself that got the party started. - Brock Hanke

In truth 99% of the plaudits you hear about Jeter have to do with his approach to the game and his apparent total devotion to it once he enters the clubhouse. But other than a few mentions of his charities, which pretty much every star player has, I've never heard anyone speak of Jeter as a person in anywhere near the same way that people who knew him speak of Musial. To make a rough comparison: Jeter's rep is more like Cal Ripken's, whereas Musial's is more like Brooks Robinson's, super squeaky clean with a bit of cornball thrown in for humanizing purposes.

   73. Morty Causa Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:44 PM (#4708988)
Fairly or unfairly, many felt if you could play sports, you weren't really 4-F. That's not exactly an incomprehensible position to take.
   74. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 17, 2014 at 11:53 PM (#4708990)
Fairly or unfairly, many felt if you could play sports, you weren't really 4-F. That's not exactly an incomprehensible position to take.

It's not incomprehensible until the second and third draft physical rejections are reported, with reasons for the rejections given in some detail, as they were. At that point it just becomes one more version old fartism, caused by jealousy and/or a resistance to fact over preconceived opinion.
   75. Morty Causa Posted: May 18, 2014 at 12:01 AM (#4708992)
But, like you so often remind us, he kept hitting those 500-foot homers and running like a deer. And he had worked in those zinc or coal mines in Oklahoma. That's how he got those muscles. It's not a stretch to see his deferment as a mere technicality that he could easily remedy if he really wanted to.
   76. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: May 18, 2014 at 12:10 AM (#4708996)
Jeter is basically Yount with more postseason value. That's a no-doubt HOFer, but not one of the all-time greats.
   77. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 18, 2014 at 12:28 AM (#4709000)
OTOH Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio waited a full year after Pearl Harbor to enlist in WWII.

IIRC, about two-thirds of the American military in WWII were draftees. It's not like baseball players were the only ones waiting until called. And just for the record, Mickey Mantle had osteomyelitis, which made him 4-F. Not really a technicality.
   78. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: May 18, 2014 at 01:00 AM (#4709003)
Brock - You know what's creepy? Your obsession with the gift baskets… Going as far as to site "Fast Times at Ridgemont High?". Seriously? "The sources of the gift-baskets are not exactly perfect". Thanks for that too. Hilarious. However much you hate the Jeter hype, the man has played 20 years for one team, won a whole bunch of championships, never spit in an umpires face - amassed 3400 hits and what is MLB supposed to do, huh? What would you like them to do, ignore him? The NYC press too? Are these not worthy accomplishments - awesome to me that you compare him to STAN MUSIAL. One of the best 10 who ever played the sport - the actual game - that's what we're celebrating here, right? (And I can't stand the Yankees.) As for his decision to announce his retirement - I'm with the poster up there somewhere who thought it had to do with him keeping some PT leverage as he enters a season, for perhaps the first time in his life, uncertain of what he's got left.
   79. alilisd Posted: May 18, 2014 at 01:28 AM (#4709007)
Curious to know what the difference between a no doubt HOF and an all time great is.
   80. bjhanke Posted: May 18, 2014 at 01:37 AM (#4709009)
Yaz - This may be partially my own fault, for not reading more widely, but I assure you that, aside from comments on his ability to play baseball, and the nickname "The Captain", I know of NOTHING that anyone has ever said about Derek Jeter as a person that is not about the gift baskets. That's where the obsession came from. It wasn't that I went from Fast Times to Jeter; it was that all I ever heard about Jeter, aside from baseball play, was about the gift baskets. And the gift baskets creep me out, partially as a result of Fast Times. If you know of somewhere where I can get a wider range of comments, please let me know and I'll try to get some time to look at them. But my media experience, meaning from ESPN, Fox Sports channels, and whatever shows up in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch newspaper, is that the only thing anyone talks about when it comes to Jeter's personality is the gift baskets. That is, in my experience, this is not my obsession, it's everyone's obsession, and especially the obsession of people who worship him (of which there seem to be many). I've been wrong before, and I'm willing to learn, but that's literally all I have ever heard about Jeter as a person in his 20 year career. Either it's a general obsession, or I have had horrific luck in what I read about him. It's not like I was LOOKING for gift basket references; it was that I couldn't avoid them. If they all just go back to a column or two in a tabloid, then someone should have pointed that out a long time ago. If they did, I missed it, it could not have happened very often, and it did not cut down on the volume of gift basket comments. - Brock
   81. Morty Causa Posted: May 18, 2014 at 01:50 AM (#4709011)
And just for the record, Mickey Mantle had osteomyelitis, which made him 4-F. Not really a technicality.

What did I say? Did he play baseball or didn't he? Is it that difficult to comprehend why some thought he was not genuinely 4-F. Surely, someone who can confound perjury and "perjury" can understand how someone might think being able to do sports means you're not really 4-F. .
   82. KT's Pot Arb Posted: May 18, 2014 at 02:05 AM (#4709013)
He is low on WAA per PA (not so bad on a per G basis). Vizquel is not a HoFer by WAA.


Borderline is probably too harsh on my part, because Jeter has been losing WAA every season since age 35. His WAA at that point was something like 35, and that's what prompted me to suggest on another thread that while I consider WAA much better than WAR for judging HOF worthiness, negative WAA after age 35 probably should be ignored because HOF type players are sometimes kept playing after they no longer merit playing time for reasons of team stature and finishing out contracts, and I don't think the player should be penalized for that.

Jeter had at least 3 MVP caliber seasons. There really isn't any way to measure him as a borderline HOFer. Even if you regard his WAA total as marginal for a HOF player, given the rest of his accomplishments and the fact he was the best player across his era of championships makes him a no brainer.

And also Willie Randolph was criminally under-rated.
   83. Ray (RDP) Posted: May 18, 2014 at 02:11 AM (#4709016)
I've lived in STL all my life (born 1947), and I was a baseball writer for 7 years (after Musial retired). It was amazing to find out just how easy it was to find out about Musial's personal life. For one thing, it was boring and repetitive by most standards. For another, neither the team nor Stan tried to hide anything, because there was nothing to hide. I got to ask people like Bing Devine and Bob Broeg about Stan (Red Schoendienst will talk about Stan any time anyone asks), in circumstances where I knew they felt free to say anything negative that they wanted, because I wasn't going to pass it on. They were both, essentially, in awe of the man as a person, and they were in position to know everything. And besides, everybody, including the few people who might have a reason to have a grudge, said the man was this type of person and no other, So, no, I'm not buying the idea that I don't know anything about Musial's personal life. It was open, freely discussed, and everyone who knew him personally had the same opinion.


And I still say you have no idea who the man slept with over the years.

I also am at a complete loss to understand how the gift baskets "mostly make[] the girls in question look like wh*res)." Were they sleeping with him in exchange for a gift basket? But even that wouldn't make them "whores," unless the gift baskets contained money.

   84. bobm Posted: May 18, 2014 at 02:25 AM (#4709019)
Jeter and Cronin both had 35 WAA through age 35.


Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2014, Not Older than 35, Hall Of Fame Members (as mlb players), Played 50% of games at SS, sorted by greatest WAA Position Players

Player ages are computed as their age on June 30th

                                               
Rk              Player WAA/pos   Age    G    PA
1         Honus Wagner    61.2 27-35 1256  5365
2           Cal Ripken    55.0 20-35 2381 10329
3         Arky Vaughan    47.3 20-35 1752  7578
4         Barry Larkin    43.6 22-35 1707  7207
5         Lou Boudreau    42.2 20-34 1646  7024
6          Robin Yount    37.4 18-35 2579 11106
7           Joe Cronin    35.1 19-35 1986  8510
8          Ozzie Smith    33.6 23-35 1926  8068
9          Ernie Banks    31.9 22-35 1961  8216
10       Pee Wee Reese    31.0 21-35 1712  7611
11          Joe Tinker    30.5 21-35 1806  7153
12       Bobby Wallace    28.5 27-35 1236  5084
13       Dave Bancroft    27.3 24-35 1539  6809
14        Luke Appling    23.4 23-35 1630  6918
15          Joe Sewell    23.1 21-34 1903  8333
16      Travis Jackson    22.7 18-32 1657  6680
17        Phil Rizzuto    22.0 23-35 1422  6099
18        George Davis    20.1 30-35  702  2941
19       Luis Aparicio    19.2 22-35 2088  9038
20   Rabbit Maranville    15.3 20-35 1810  7705


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/18/2014.


Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2014, Not Older than 35, not a Hall Of Fame Member (as mlb players), Played 50% of games at SS, sorted by greatest WAA Position Players

                                               
Rk              Player WAA/pos   Age    G    PA
1       Alex Rodriguez    77.1 18-35 2402 10634
2        Alan Trammell    43.0 19-35 2077  8603
3          Derek Jeter    35.1 21-35 2138  9809
4         Art Fletcher    27.6 24-35 1423  5609
5      Bert Campaneris    25.1 22-35 1945  8543
6          Jim Fregosi    24.6 19-35 1882  7377
7      Troy Tulowitzki    24.5 21-29  910  3854
8    Nomar Garciaparra    24.2 22-35 1434  6116
9        Vern Stephens    24.2 20-34 1720  7241
10       Mark Belanger    19.3 21-35 1785  6095
11      Hanley Ramirez    18.7 21-30 1137  4943
12       Rafael Furcal    18.5 22-34 1605  7200
13       Miguel Tejada    18.4 23-35 1871  8014
14       John Valentin    17.3 25-35 1105  4511
15       Jimmy Rollins    17.1 21-35 1989  9061
16          Jose Reyes    16.0 20-31 1329  6092
17      Tony Fernandez    15.4 21-35 1802  7532
18     Dave Concepcion    15.0 22-35 1901  7548
19       Freddy Parent    15.0 25-35 1325  5563
20             Al Dark    14.7 24-35 1455  6343
45        Brendan Ryan     7.3 25-32  788  2647
47        Omar Vizquel     7.2 22-35 1926  7961
50   Andrelton Simmons     7.0 22-24  243   982


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/18/2014.

   85. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: May 18, 2014 at 02:51 AM (#4709021)
My very cynical opinion is that the pre-season retirement announcement was more about making it hard for the Yankees to bench him that to get the grand farewell tour. If he had not made it clear that this was going to be his last season, management may have felt less constraint about pointing out that he was finished.


or... his contract was up at the end of the year, and he wanted management to have roster-certainty next year, and avoid the hype and problems associated with a walk year.

The point is that none of us know. But depending on who you are and what you think of him, any of his actions could be interpreted in an extremely positive or negative way.
   86. bjhanke Posted: May 18, 2014 at 04:51 AM (#4709024)
Ray - You're asking good questions, and I'm starting to think that the main problem between us is that you have different emotional responses than I do. I am 99.9% sure that, if Stan Musial had ever cheated on Lil, I'd have found out about it. I knew too many people who knew him and her personally, not just sportswriters. And I had a reputation for NEVER spreading that type of info around (being a baseball writer for a local alternative weekly comes with a lot of scrutiny and you have to be really careful about that kind of thing, or nobody will deal with you at all. Your venue is just too small). You may think that 99.9% is naive (you probably do), but that's what I think, and, which is the core of the point you're making, there is no 100% way to find out. I will concede the difference between 99.9% and absolute 100%.

The last point you made is the one I'm thinking of when I say "emotional differences." Yes, I consider gift baskets to be a form of money (compensation). Girls who groupie up, whether to ballplayers or rock musicians or politicians or whoever, get enough grief for what is too often perceived as trading sex for the ability to brag that you slept with George Brett or Mick Jagger or whoever. Bill Clinton, for example, apparently likes BJs. Monica Lewinsky was willing to trade that for the ability to brag that she'd had sex with the president. Same principle. The gift basket thing strikes me as Derek Jeter organizing this and making it look even more commercial than the groupying does to start with. Derek Jeter is not desperate for one night stands. He can have one, with a reasonably hot girl, any time he wants. In return, they get to brag. Adding in the gift basket makes the deal look monetary to me, partially because it take the spontaneity out of it. She will get a gift basket. It's part of the deal. That makes the deal much less personal, the girl look much less special, and the whole thing much more cold and commercial. Or, at least, that's how I respond to it. You may well not respond to it that way. I'm not going to try to change your mind or anything because I think this is essentially emotional, and that trying to change your mind would be futile and annoying. I just have a REALLY bad response to gift baskets or anything of the sort. - Brock
   87. Swedish Chef Posted: May 18, 2014 at 07:03 AM (#4709026)
If I was a slightly more evil person I would work out which posters are both 1) Snobbish about gossipy media (re the Kardashian butt thread) and 2) Relying on it to form their world view.
   88. An Athletic in Powderhorn™ Posted: May 18, 2014 at 07:03 AM (#4709027)
Far more will attend Derek Jeter's final Fenway game than were there to bid adieu to Ted Williams.
While that is certainly true, I can't figure out what point you think you're making with that comment.
   89. Swedish Chef Posted: May 18, 2014 at 07:12 AM (#4709028)
I wonder how big the ratio (# people claiming to have been there)/(# in attendance) is for Ted William's last game.
   90. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: May 18, 2014 at 07:26 AM (#4709029)
See 35. "The Yankees' late 90s run was, and will remain so, one of the greatest team-flukes of all time." So it has been written - so it has been believed.....by the simple minded. That team really sucked, especially in '98. Jeter's 3551 hits and counting are mostly flukes too so they don't count. And man, did he choke in the post season. (200 flukes, and almost no memorable moments.)
   91. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: May 18, 2014 at 07:31 AM (#4709030)
I wouldn't say that Pedroia and Ortiz were "bitter rivals" of Jeter. Ortiz likes everyone, and Pedroia and Jeter have been friends since they played together on the Olympic team (I think that where they were teammates).
   92. Lassus Posted: May 18, 2014 at 07:58 AM (#4709034)
Jeter having a bitter rival would be fun. However, as no other player has ever really said a bad word about him, I don't think that reality exists.
   93. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 18, 2014 at 08:04 AM (#4709035)
Fairly or unfairly, many felt if you could play sports, you weren't really 4-F. That's not exactly an incomprehensible position to take.

It's not incomprehensible until the second and third draft physical rejections are reported, with reasons for the rejections given in some detail, as they were. At that point it just becomes one more version old fartism, caused by jealousy and/or a resistance to fact over preconceived opinion.

But, like you so often remind us, he kept hitting those 500-foot homers and running like a deer. And he had worked in those zinc or coal mines in Oklahoma. That's how he got those muscles. It's not a stretch to see his deferment as a mere technicality that he could easily remedy if he really wanted to.


Morty, just stop beating around the bush. We all know that "many felt" that Mantle was a draft dodger, in spite of all evidence to the contrary in the form of repeated failed physicals for serious chronic medical conditions. Nobody is disputing that some people ignored the evidence, and you don't really need to keep pointing it out for us to get the point.

The question is: Do you think he was a draft dodger? Do you believe that BS that "if you could play sports, you weren't really 4-F", or don't you? Are we arguing with a live human being in 2014 or merely with a bunch of ghosts?

If you do believe that Mantle was a draft dodger in the face two or three failed physicals**, you're an idiot. And if you don't believe it, then what's your point?

**By local draft boards that had been heavily criticized after the first 4-F classification by a vocal minority within veterans' groups. Politically the draft board would have found it much easier to just make Mantle a 1-A.
   94. Howie Menckel Posted: May 18, 2014 at 08:33 AM (#4709036)

The Jeter gift basket thing is a popular meme here, but I don't hear much about it elsewhere. And indeed the source is a Dec 2011 in the NY Post:

http://nypost.com/2011/12/13/jeter-gives-autograph-swag-to-one-night-stands/

The gist of the lightly-sourced item, take from it what you will:

"The Yankees captain’s wham-bam-thank-you-ma’am kiss-offs came to light when he mistakenly pulled the stunt twice on the same woman — forgetting she had been an earlier conquest, a pal told The Post.

“Derek has girls stay with him at his apartment in New York, and then he gets them a car to take them home the next day. Waiting in his car is a gift basket containing signed Jeter memorabilia, usually a signed baseball,” the friend dished.

“This summer, he ended up hooking up with a girl who he had hooked up with once before, but Jeter seemed to have forgotten about the first time and gave her the same identical parting gift, a gift basket with a signed Derek Jeter baseball,” the pal said.

“He basically gave her the same gift twice because he’d forgotten hooking up with her the first time!”
   95. Morty Causa Posted: May 18, 2014 at 09:10 AM (#4709041)
I wonder how big the ratio (# people claiming to have been there)/(# in attendance) is for Ted William's last game.

It should also be taken into account that Boston at that time of Williams's last game was in 7th place or something like that, it was a Wednesday, and the weather was pretty miserable. Everyone there had probably made a special effort to see Mr. Williams for the last time.
   96. Morty Causa Posted: May 18, 2014 at 09:30 AM (#4709044)
93:

I don't have to have an ultimate opinion on every issue mooted here. You need to curb your inner spinster aunt..

I said there was controversy about his not serving and there was. This was in the context of a discussion on military service and players method of beginning their service. That Mantle was designated 4-F didn't end that controversy. There was a reason for that, and that reason is clear and understandable, even if you ultimately disagree. That is history that you (you're not alone, I'm sure) are trying to obfuscate by retreating always to his official 4-F status. The point is that many people thought an athlete who could fully play his sport wasn't incapable of serving. They didn't care about "official". That is history. That's how they felt, and that's worth noting in and of itself.

My opinion is irrelevant to the history of how people felt. If you think they were stupid or unfair, fine. Still, that's how many felt, and their reasoning is clear and understandable. . .
   97. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 18, 2014 at 10:00 AM (#4709051)
I said there was controversy about his not serving and there was.

We get it, Morty. You've now said it about half a dozen times.

My opinion is irrelevant to the history of how people felt. If you think they were stupid or unfair, fine. Still, that's how many felt, and their reasoning is clear and understandable. . .

Understandable to whom? Understandable to you? Why the reluctance to state your own opinion? This is little more than a classic example of the "I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'" form of argument, which is unfortunately all too common in the world of rumor and gossip. It lets you have it both ways.

So who else has "understandable" concerns? The birthers? The truthers? The Death Panels people? At what point does initial skepticism end, and pigheaded refusal to accept undeniable facts begin?
   98. Howie Menckel Posted: May 18, 2014 at 10:08 AM (#4709053)
"understandable" is, ironically, a word that can cause miscommunication

un·der·stand·a·ble (?n?d?r-st?n?d?-b?l)
adj.
1. Capable of being understood: an understandable sentence.
2. Expected or accepted under the circumstances: Their anger is understandable, given what happened.

"understandable" can mean it's not surprising that people reach a conclusion, OR suggest that the user of the word is also expressing support for that conclusion....
   99. Morty Causa Posted: May 18, 2014 at 10:10 AM (#4709054)
We get it, Morty. You've now said it about half a dozen times.

If I said it a dozen times, it's because a very simple proposition has been obfuscated and distorted.

*I would be more inclined to answer your question if you gave some indication of sentience, of understanding and appreciating the point. It isn't an unusual reaction. Some people didn't like it when guys who played high school or college or pro football were exempted for some sports-related injury. Then continued playing the sport.

*Or if you asked me nice.

So who else has "understandable" concerns? The birthers? The truthers? The Death Panels people? At what point does initial skepticism end, and pigheaded refusal to accept undeniable facts begin?

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.
   100. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: May 18, 2014 at 10:12 AM (#4709055)
Right now I'd call it more like Mortyland.
Page 1 of 5 pages  1 2 3 4 5 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Kiko Sakata
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game
(2887 - 10:38am, Jul 24)
Last: The Good Face

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread- July 2014
(857 - 10:37am, Jul 24)
Last: HMS Moses Taylor

NewsblogYadier Molina serves his brother crackers on a plate — home plate
(3 - 10:37am, Jul 24)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogMLB: Tarp problems at Yankee Stadium
(23 - 10:37am, Jul 24)
Last: Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq.

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread July, 2014
(373 - 10:37am, Jul 24)
Last: Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14!

NewsblogGoldman: Eliminating the shift a bandage for a phantom wound
(21 - 10:33am, Jul 24)
Last: Yeaarrgghhhh

NewsblogBuck Showalter, Tommy Hunter bemoan shrinking strike zone in Orioles loss
(1 - 10:32am, Jul 24)
Last: boteman is not here 'til October

NewsblogFivethirtyeight: Billion-Dollar Billy Beane
(1 - 10:32am, Jul 24)
Last: AROM

NewsblogCSN: Enough is enough — time to move on from Ryan Howard
(46 - 10:31am, Jul 24)
Last: Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama

Newsblog2015 Competitive Balance Lottery Results
(16 - 10:28am, Jul 24)
Last: Ziggy

NewsblogSports Reference Blog: 1901-02 Orioles Removed from Yankees History
(33 - 9:58am, Jul 24)
Last: Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band.

NewsblogAs shifts suppress offense, time has come to consider a rule change
(80 - 9:01am, Jul 24)
Last: BDC

NewsblogRubin: deGrom for NL rookie of the year?
(37 - 8:46am, Jul 24)
Last: Steve Parris, Je t'aime

NewsblogGeorge "The Animal" Steele Mangles A Baseball
(131 - 7:44am, Jul 24)
Last: a fatty cow that need two seats (cough, cough)

SABR - BBTF ChapterWho's going to SABR??
(86 - 5:36am, Jul 24)
Last: McCoy

Page rendered in 0.9622 seconds
52 querie(s) executed