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Friday, April 13, 2012

Kiesewetter: Eric Davis takes swings at Marge

Gale storm! My belittle Margie!

Davis’ candid comments are a marked contrast to some of his public statements during his Cincinnati seasons (1984-91; 1996), when he was often seen smiling with Schott.

On Schott using the “N word”:  “To have my owner call me her ‘million-dollar — ,’ it didn’t really sit good with me,” Davis says. He says he was 22 at the time, which would have been his rookie season in 1984. He used it as motivation to make as much money as possible, he said.

“I got calls from the NAACP” and the Rev. Jesse Jackson, “but as a 22-year-old, what was I going to do? I put that under my hat, and used that as my motivation, that if I’m going to be a million-dollar … , then she’s going to have to keep paying me well over $1 million, because I’m going to prove my worth to her.”

On being left behind in an Oakland hospital after the Reds swept the A’s in the 1990 World Series (because Davis tore his kidney diving for a ball in Game 4): “I had a lot of bitter feelings about Cincinnati. For me to be the No. 1 guy, the face of the franchise, and to put my life on the line to help you win, it was kind of depressing. I held a grudge for a long time.”

Repoz Posted: April 13, 2012 at 12:48 PM | 98 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, reds

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   1. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4105702)
On Schott using the “N word”: “To have my owner call me her ‘million-dollar — ,’ it didn’t really sit good with me,” Davis says. He says he was 22 at the time, which would have been his rookie season in 1984. He used it as motivation to make as much money as possible, he said.

I don't even remember this. If it happened now, the internets would explode, of course.
   2. robinred Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4105718)
If it happened now, the internets would explode, of course.


I recall it very well. It came out in the 90s. After it went down, I heard an interview with Barry Larkin. He talked about Schott calling him "honey" all the time and he said Schott's statements were "embarrassing." Wiki:

On November 13, 1992, Charles "Cal" Levy, a former marketing director for the Reds, stated in a deposition for Tim Sabo, a former employee, who was suing the team that he'd heard Schott refer to then-Reds outfielders Eric Davis and Dave Parker as "million-dollar niggers."[3] Sabo, whose position was "team controller," alleged that his 1991 firing was due to testifying against Schott in another lawsuit brought against Schott by several limited partners and because he opposed the unwritten policy of not hiring blacks. Schott's countersuit alleged that Sabo wrote unauthorized checks to himself and paid health insurance premiums to retired front-office employees. She asked for $25,000 in damages for defamation. Sabo ultimately lost his suit.

Levy, who is Jewish, alleged that Schott kept a Nazi swastika armband at her home and claims he overheard her say "sneaky ####### Jews are all alike."[3] The next day, Schott issued a statement saying the claims of racism levied against her were overstated and that she did not mean to offend anyone with her statement or her ownership of the armband. Schott explained that the swastika armband had been her late husband's. During his World War II service he had saved a fellow soldier's life. In gratitude for this act the soldier had given him the souvenir Nazi armband as a token of appreciation. Schott kept the armband as a remembrance of her husband's bravery and service.

On November 29, Schott said the "million dollar niggers" comment was made in jest, but then stated that she felt that Adolf Hitler was initially good for Germany and did not understand how the epithet "Jap" could be offensive.
   3. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4105719)
I don't even remember this. If it happened now, the internets would explode, of course.


Well, in 1992 it came out and then Schott responded to a question by telling ESPN, "Hitler was good in the beginning, but he went too far." Not to mention the stuff about the word "Japs". The internets weren't necessary for a pretty impressive explosion.

Schott was a throwback. She was a 1950s-style racist of the kind who didn't really understand that she was a racist and that the racist things she said were racist. And so she didn't censor herself when it would have been expedient to do so.

Edit: Coke.
   4. smileyy Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4105743)
Am I a terrible person for finding leaving Davis behind in the hospital in Oakland the most unconscionable of those acts?
   5. shattnering his Dominicano G Strings on that Mound Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4105755)
God the Eric Davis career that actually happened makes me sad...
   6. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4105757)
I think she got a full season suspension for the Hitler thing, no?

On one hand, baseball ownership was very, very much an old boys club - corporate ownership had really just gotten off the ground, and you had a ton of old white guys many of whom were none too happy to have this woman sitting in on things (think "Major League" and replace the showgirl with an old curmudgeon).... so to some extent, I do have a bit of sympathy for the way Schott was basically forced out of ownership.

On the other, she she was an absolutely horrid racist, an antisemitic, and not just a little too comfortable with ideas that probably don't even get said at a Bircher meetup.

The conflicted liberal in me is torn between who to dislike more ;-)
   7. Bob Evans Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4105765)
I don't get the hospital thing. Were they supposed to helicopter him to Cincinnati or something? Or is it that nobody came to see him and explain?
   8. smileyy Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:01 PM (#4105766)
Zonk, I can like Marge a little bit more, one for being a woman in an old boys club, and two for being...unenlightened...enough to air her racism publicly, where it withers under scrutiny.
   9. Nasty Nate Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4105767)
Am I a terrible person for finding leaving Davis behind in the hospital in Oakland the most unconscionable of those acts?


The article is vague, what happened? Presumably he was in the hospital for a reason, so what does it mean that they left him behind?

edit: didnt see post 7 when I wrote this...
   10. robinred Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4105769)
Am I a terrible person for finding leaving Davis behind in the hospital in Oakland the most unconscionable of those acts?


Larkin brought Davis' jersey to the ceremony IIRC.
   11. smileyy Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4105770)
[7] I dunno...maybe encouraging some staff and even players to stay behind with Davis, taking care of any issues, making sure the celebration of the win happened for everyone, not "abandoning" a guy who was instrumental in the World Series win.

Man, I remember being in the ballpark for his 2-run homer off of Dave Stewart after Rijo had shut down the top of the A's order in Game 1. Never did "Holy *($# we could win this" happen so quickly.

Edit: IIRC, the extent of the Reds management involvement with Davis after the series was over was buying his plane ticket home.
   12. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4105785)
Edit: IIRC, the extent of the Reds management involvement with Davis after the series was over was buying his plane ticket home.


Actually, if memory serves -- I think they initially didn't even want to do that... or maybe didn't even do that.
   13. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4105799)
Man, I remember being in the ballpark for his 2-run homer off of Dave Stewart after Rijo had shut down the top of the A's order in Game 1. Never did "Holy *($# we could win this" happen so quickly.


I remember watching that on TV. Stewart's expression after the home run was one of sheer disbelief. It was as if all of the air had gone out of the Athletics' balloon. Right after the home run, I called my Mum on the phone and told her "It's over". I knew, absolutely knew, that the Reds would win it...
   14. Dunn Deal Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4105808)
Eric Davis is criminally underappreciated by Reds fans, and he's my favorite player of all time. Nobody has ever been a better baseball player* than Eric the Red was in the first half of 1987: 74 games of .321/.413/.694 (190 OPS+), 27HR, and 33SB while playing gold glove defense in center. Just amazing to watch, and it's so damn awful that his body betrayed him with the constant injuries.

* I guess that's not true. But I was 8 at the time and I lived in Cincy, so I'm not going to let reality get in the way.
   15. Ephus Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4105809)
Can anyone think of a trio of HS baseball teammates greater than Eric Davis, Darryl Strawberry and Chris Brown. Davis was a HOF talent who was too injured, Stawberry was a HOF talent who was too stoned, and Brown was an All-Star talent who ate himself out of the league.

I frequently imagine an alternate universe where Eric Davis and Pete Reiser are remembered in the pantheon with DiMaggio, Mantle and Mays.
   16. TerpNats Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4105831)
Eric Davis is criminally underappreciated by Reds fans, and he's my favorite player of all time. Nobody has ever been a better baseball player* than Eric the Red was in the first half of 1987: 74 games of .321/.413/.694 (190 OPS+), 27HR, and 33SB while playing gold glove defense in center.
That weekend series he had at Veterans Stadium in the spring of '87 was among the most remarkable displays of talent I've ever seen.
   17. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4105838)
Can anyone think of a trio of HS baseball teammates greater than Eric Davis, Darryl Strawberry and Chris Brown. Davis was a HOF talent who was too injured, Stawberry was a HOF talent who was too stoned, and Brown was an All-Star talent who ate himself out of the league.


Davis wasn't on the same high school team as Brown and Strawberry. He lived pretty close by, and they were on some summer and park league teams together.

I just finished (last night) this book about the 1979 Crenshaw team Strawberry and Brown were on. I highly recommend it. Several other players on the team were also drafted, but Strawberry and Brown were the only ones who made it to MLB.
   18. The Good Face Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4105849)
Schott explained that the swastika armband had been her late husband's. During his World War II service he had saved a fellow soldier's life. In gratitude for this act the soldier had given him the souvenir Nazi armband as a token of appreciation. Schott kept the armband as a remembrance of her husband's bravery and service.


This is actually plausible. Many WW II veterans brought back souvenirs, including a ton of Nazi paraphernalia, and armbands in particular were common and easy to transport.

More importantly, Eric Davis was awesome as hell. It just wasn't fair how easy he made the game look.
   19. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4105857)
This is actually plausible. Many WW II veterans brought back souvenirs, including a ton of Nazi paraphernalia, and armbands in particular were common and easy to transport.


It's absolutely plausible - but I seem to recall that she had more than just an armband... Of course, collecting Nazi paraphernalia doesn't necessarily make one a Nazi sympathizer, either -- but having casually known a couple such collectors and having also heard them espouse some general life views, particularly about certain classes or people and the proper ordering of society -- let's just say it would be probable cause from my experience.
   20. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4105862)
My uncle has a Luger pistol that one of his relatives took from a German corpse.
   21. PreservedFish Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4105872)
At an antiques store in New Orleans I saw a memento from Hitler's office for sale. It was something like a paperweight that was within arm's reach when he killed himself. Wondered about who would buy such a thing.
   22. puck Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4105876)
At an antiques store in New Orleans I saw a memento from Hitler's office for sale. It was something like a paperweight that was within arm's reach when he killed himself. Wondered about who would buy such a thing.


Is it a horcrux?
   23. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4105878)
When I was in Germany last year I briefly considered getting a Nazi-era coin for my gf's father who collects stuff like that (I mean old coins and historical flotsam in general, not Nazi-coins in specific). I decided against it, though, and picked him up a couple of Weimar coins instead. #### that Nazi ####.
   24. Swedish Chef Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4105883)
At an antiques store in New Orleans I saw a memento from Hitler's office for sale. It was something like a paperweight that was within arm's reach when he killed himself. Wondered about who would buy such a thing.

Hmmm... Buy it, scrape it for hair and skin cells, extract DNA, clone Hitler.

Sounds like a perfect little project for a budding mad scientist.
   25. PreservedFish Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4105888)
It did hold a morbid fascination for us. Over the course of a weekend we visited it 3-4 times, to see if it was still there.
   26. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4105889)
It did hold a morbid fascination for us. Over the course of a weekend we visited it 3-4 times, to see if it was still there.

Was there any provenance to verify the story behind it? Call me cynical, but no way would I take that story at face value.
   27. smileyy Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4105895)
Of course, collecting Nazi paraphernalia doesn't necessarily make one a Nazi sympathizer, either -- but having casually known a couple such collectors and having also heard them espouse some general life views, particularly about certain classes or people and the proper ordering of society -- let's just say it would be probable cause from my experience.


I'd say the people likely to have Nazi paraphernalia are either WWII vets, the descendants of WWII vets who were extremely close to their ancestors, or Nazi sympathizers. The more time passes, the more likely it is that someone falls into that last category.
   28. PreservedFish Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4105900)
It was in a locked glass cabinet, and had an index card with a typed explanation. If it detailed the provenance, I don't remember it. We didn't ask the clerk about it. The store had some impressive stuff, huge collection of ancient coins, maps, weapons and so forth. It might have been legit.
   29. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4105903)
Davis even got injured big. Most players turn an ankle or have a shoulder injury. He tore his kidney during a World Series game and then missed time with cancer.
   30. shattnering his Dominicano G Strings on that Mound Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4105906)
I remember watching that on TV. Stewart's expression after the home run was one of sheer disbelief. It was as if all of the air had gone out of the Athletics' balloon. Right after the home run, I called my Mum on the phone and told her "It's over". I knew, absolutely knew, that the Reds would win it...


Oh God yes. 1988 came back right away. I was 14 and a huge A's fan and McGwire/Rickey Henderson were my favorite players and I was always kind of a pubescent snot so my whole family rooted for the Reds just to spite me. And we all knew, even my sister and brother who were all but clueless about baseball, that the Reds had broken something in the A's when Davis hit that shot. The rest was a bitter march to death with my family high-5ing and pointing at me after they did it.
   31. Swedish Chef Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4105912)
I'd say the people likely to have Nazi paraphernalia are either WWII vets, the descendants of WWII vets who were extremely close to their ancestors, or Nazi sympathizers. The more time passes, the more likely it is that someone falls into that last category.

The more time passes, the more likely is that the objects are owned by collectors. And why a collector have a yen for a particular kind of object is seldom explained by ideology.
   32. Boxkutter Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4105919)
Well, in 1992 it came out and then Schott responded to a question by telling ESPN, "Hitler was good in the beginning, but he went too far."

I am no historian, only what I remember from history classes in HS and college, but isn't that pretty accurate? When WWI ended, Germany got hosed. Hitler came along and really helped re-build the country and instilled a sense of national pride. But then he kept going. Or maybe my history teachers were just Nazi sympathizers.
   33. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4105925)
I'd say the people likely to have Nazi paraphernalia are either WWII vets, the descendants of WWII vets who were extremely close to their ancestors, or Nazi sympathizers. The more time passes, the more likely it is that someone falls into that last category.

The more time passes, the more likely is that the objects are owned by collectors. And why a collector have a yen for a particular kind of object is seldom explained by ideology.


I suppose... I guess I'm colored by a very, very limited set of anecdotes... One case was a HS acquaintance whose dad had a large enough collection that he liked to show off, which was interesting until he started talking about "the Jews" when it became less interesting and more unsettling. The other was a guy I knew in college who I have zero doubt is living in a compound in Idaho, posting on Stormfront.

I'm a bit of a history buff myself and I'm really not squeamish about collecting such things per se - I have a few pieces of Soviet era memorabilia that I collected more by happenstance than active seeking (friend of a friend gave me an Olympic warmup jersey and a Red Army colonels' jacket and cap) and while I don't necessarily have them out on display, neither do I keep them tucked away in a box... nor do I have any real attachment to them.
   34. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4105926)
The more time passes, the more likely is that the objects are owned by collectors. And why a collector have a yen for a particular kind of object is seldom explained by ideology.


One of my hobbies is building scale model airplanes. One of the members of my model club builds nothing but 1/48th scale Luftwaffe aircraft from WW2. He's the least likely person to be a Nazi I know, but he's fascinated by the aircraft, and particularly the color schemes and markings, used by the Luftwaffe in that period.

I build all sorts of aircraft. I've got aircraft with swastikas, aircraft with Soviet stars, etc. in my collection. It means nothing politically. I'm just trying to build accurate models of aircraft that are historically important, or of interest to me.
   35. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4105933)
but I seem to recall that she had more than just an armband


Pay no attention to that lampshade in the corner.
   36. PreservedFish Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4105935)
"Hitler was good in the beginning, but he went too far."


"Too far" is such an amazing understatement! It also allows for interpretations like, "Conquering Poland was reasonable, but Russia? He got a bit greedy." Or, "Hitler was right to hate, prosecute and marginalize Jews, but exterminating them was just a little gauche for my tastes."
   37. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4105939)
I am no historian, only what I remember from history classes in HS and college, but isn't that pretty accurate? When WWI ended, Germany got hosed. Hitler came along and really helped re-build the country and instilled a sense of national pride.


I'm no history buff either, and, while I think one can read history this way, I think it misses the fact that Hitler's virulent anti-Semitism and lust to conquer Europe were not only always there, but were an inextricable part of how Hitler rose to power and restored German national pride. In other words, my sense is that it was inevitable from the start that he would have "kept going" and end up "going too far", because that's where he intended to go all along.
   38. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4105941)
When WWI ended, Germany got hosed. Hitler came along and really helped re-build the country and instilled a sense of national pride. But then he kept going. Or maybe my history teachers were just Nazi sympathizers.
Yes, they apparently were.

The Nazi party was always virulently racist, and they took power through a systematic campaign of murder and terror.
   39. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4105945)
I am no historian, only what I remember from history classes in HS and college, but isn't that pretty accurate? When WWI ended, Germany got hosed. Hitler came along and really helped re-build the country and instilled a sense of national pride. But then he kept going. Or maybe my history teachers were just Nazi sympathizers.


Perhaps not Nazi sympathizers, but if not -- woefully deficient in knowing their history. It's not as if Hitler and the Nazis just got bored reinvigorating German pride, building autobans, and suddenly decided "Hey, let's exterminate the Jews" because they no longer had anything better to do.

Versailles was both a catalyst and a vehicle for Hitler, but Hitler was Hitler and the Nazis were Nazis (especially the post '34 Nazis... You might be able to make a case that there were Nazi ideologists less interested in genocidal fate and purity prior to that, but you really can't after that).
   40. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4105948)
One of my hobbies is building scale model airplanes. One of the members of my model club builds nothing but 1/48th scale Luftwaffe aircraft from WW2. He's the least likely person to be a Nazi I know, but he's fascinated by the aircraft, and particularly the color schemes and markings, used by the Luftwaffe in that period.


Oh sure -- I put together an enormous model of the Bismark in HS -- I had a ton of model battleships to begin with, but the Bismark was easily the largest and most intricate.
   41. Bob Tufts Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4105950)
Can anyone think of a trio of HS baseball teammates greater than Eric Davis, Darryl Strawberry and Chris Brown


Frank Robinson, Curt Flood and Vada Pinson at McClymonds High School in Oakland.
   42. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4105956)
Am I the only one entertaining myself by imagining how our usual "libertarian" suspects would've been falling all over themselves defending Schott if BTF had somehow been around a couple of decades ago?
   43. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:04 PM (#4105958)
My uncle had a Japanese sword that my grandfather acquired while serving in the Pacific during/after WWII. This was a source of minor conflict between him and my father, who both assumed the sword had some monetary and historical value. Years later, when they finally took it to get appraised, they found out that not only was it relatively worthless, but it wasn't even of Japanese origin.
   44. Shooty is in the Trust Tree Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4105960)
(friend of a friend gave me an Olympic warmup jersey and a Red Army colonels' jacket and cap)

I don't think many people would be disturbed by this. If you grew up in the Cold War, there is something weirdly nostalgic about the Soviets. They were such a part of our consciousness.
   45. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4105961)
Am I the only one entertaining myself by imagining how our usual "libertarian" suspects would've been falling all over themselves defending Schott if BTF had somehow been around a couple of decades ago?


Yes
   46. JPWF1313 Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4105962)
I am no historian, only what I remember from history classes in HS and college, but isn't that pretty accurate?


No it is not accurate, Hitler and his "gang" were thugs from day 1, before they got in power, the day he was in office and right up to the bitter end.

Even before he gained office the SA (Brownshirts) were formed as his "bodyguard" but really the main purpose of the SA was intimidation - they physically attacked political rivals- operated a mafia-style protection racket to make money- engaged in large scale street brawls with communists and labor unionists- and in their downtime, for fun, would vandalize Jewish homes and other property.

Of course, once he was made chancellor (with 36% of the vote mind you)- but before he could quite consolidate his power base - the S.A. was seen as a political liability - it made the military and leading industrialists nervous that the new chancellor commended his own para-military/militia of street thugs- so in his first year in office he- well he simply had the leaders of the SA murdered (The Night of the Long Knives)

Hell even before the Night of the Long Knives, he had the German Parliament building burned down as a pre-text for suppressing other political parties and opening up concentration camps... then he began passing laws restricting Jews and confiscating their property, and "euthanizing" undesirables (people with disabilities)

At best you can say is that in his early years Hitler didn't bother his neighbors.

Prior to WWI Germany was the most industrially advanced nation in Europe
Immediately prior to Hitler, Germany was the most industrially advanced nation in Europe (the fabled Weimer hyperinflation had ended years before Hitler took over) - what hobbled Germany and Germany's standard of living immediately before Hitler's rise to power? Reparations payments and the Great Depression- to be blunt Hitler solved both problems in essentially one stroke- he stopped paying reparations and used the money to re-arm- stimulating the economy.

"Good"
There is no definition of that word that applies to him or his political party at any point in time
   47. JPWF1313 Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4105974)
One of my hobbies is building scale model airplanes. One of the members of my model club builds nothing but 1/48th scale Luftwaffe aircraft from WW2.

I see I was a bit late/ too long winded in responding to #32. But I digress.

I have assembled about 20 or so Luftwaffe aircraft models, most 1/48, a few 1/72 and one 1/32.
I have also assembled about 10-12 or so WWII Japanese planes
about 5-6 WWII Russian planes
about 10-12 WWI planes
about 20-25 American WWII planes
about 30 post-WWII combat aircraft (mostly 1/72)

(yes there have been times in my life where I had waaay too much time on my hands

the idea of just collecting WWII Luftwaffe aircraft, well that seems a bit odd (I mean I recognize that collecting these things at all is seen by many as odd)-
   48. JPWF1313 Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4105976)
Oh sure -- I put together an enormous model of the Bismark in HS -- I had a ton of model battleships to begin with, but the Bismark was easily the largest and most intricate.


My largest is the Oregon- pre-Dreadnaught- my Bismark is just a waterline model as is my Hood.
My Arizona is quite intricate...
   49. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4105983)
Even before he gained office the SA (Brownshirts) were formed as his "bodyguard" but really the main purpose of the SA was intimidation - they physically attacked political rivals- operated a mafia-style protection racket to make money- engaged in large scale street brawls with communists and labor unionists- and in their downtime, for fun, would vandalize Jewish homes and other property.

Of course, once he was made chancellor (with 36% of the vote mind you)- but before he could quite consolidate his power base - the S.A. was seen as a political liability - it made the military and leading industrialists nervous that the new chancellor commended his own para-military/militia of street thugs- so in his first year in office he- well he simply had the leaders of the SA murdered (The Night of the Long Knives)

Hell even before the Night of the Long Knives, he had the German Parliament building burned down as a pre-text for suppressing other political parties and opening up concentration camps... then he began passing laws restricting Jews and confiscating their property, and "euthanizing" undesirables (people with disabilities)


Yeah - just to be clear in 39 - I'm no Strasserist, I was just saying that within the Nazi party prior to the Bamberg Conference and enunciation of the führerprinzip and then especially, Night of the Long Knives, there were Nazi ideologues who were less interested in genocide and more interested in a sort of thuggish socialism that held capitalism -- AND communism -- with a great, great deal of distrust and distaste. Let's say Hitler dies in the Beer Hall Putsch -- does the Nazi party go on to be led by a Gregor Strasser or Ernst Rohm? And do things work out any differently? I don't foresee good things for Germany, Europe and countless millions regardless, but just as an example -- I'm not sure we get a Holocaust without Hitler. Antisemitism was a staple of the Nazis to be sure, but it was also quite sadly a pretty common part of Germany (and really, Europe) at that time and before.
   50. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4105988)
the idea of just collecting WWII Luftwaffe aircraft, well that seems a bit odd (I mean I recognize that collecting these things at all is seen by many as odd)-


One other guy in the club builds 1/72nd scale F-4 Phantoms. He's done 95 different ones so far...
   51. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4105990)

My largest is the Oregon- pre-Dreadnaught- my Bismark is just a waterline model as is my Hood.
My Arizona is quite intricate...


I had both an Arizona and a Hood as well... My only pre-Dreadnaught was the Maine.

Though it was smallish - I would say my favorite was an Italian ship, the Vittorio Veneto. That was a beautiful battleship.
   52. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4106003)
Nobody has ever been a better baseball player* than Eric the Red was in the first half of 1987: 74 games of .321/.413/.694 (190 OPS+), 27HR, and 33SB while playing gold glove defense in center.

* I guess that's not true.


190 OPS+ from a legit gold glover in center is just about as good as it gets, so I don't think you even needed the asterisk.
   53. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4106004)
I have assembled about 20 or so Luftwaffe aircraft models, most 1/48, a few 1/72 and one 1/32.
I have also assembled about 10-12 or so WWII Japanese planes
about 5-6 WWII Russian planes
about 10-12 WWI planes
about 20-25 American WWII planes
about 30 post-WWII combat aircraft (mostly 1/72)


Looking at my display case, which is right by me, I have in the case:

WW2 Era:

14 British
7 German
5 American
3 Japanese
2 Soviet
2 Italian
2 Australian
1 French
1 Finnish
1 Lithuanian
1 Yugoslavian
1 Spanish
1 New Zealand

plus

2 British WW1
2 British post-war
1 British 1930s civil
1 US post-war
1 Swedish post war

All are 1/72 except for one 1/144 kit.

   54. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:39 PM (#4106012)
Never owned any sort of war memorabilia from any side, I'm pretty sure, but as a bit of a stamp & coin collector in my youth, I found German stamps with Hitler or swastikas (some of which were overprints, IIRC) quite fascinating. Not sure I ever owned any coins with any sort of Nazi insignia, but IIRC the collectibles shop I used to work for had a couple.
   55. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4106025)
as a bit of a stamp & coin collector in my youth, I found German stamps with Hitler or swastikas

My dad was also a philatelist and had many stamps from the aformentioned Weimar inflation era. It was fascinating to look at the overprints that made the stamp cost several million marks
   56. Squash Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4106035)
Man, I remember being in the ballpark for his 2-run homer off of Dave Stewart after Rijo had shut down the top of the A's order in Game 1. Never did "Holy *($# we could win this" happen so quickly.

I remember watching that on TV. Stewart's expression after the home run was one of sheer disbelief. It was as if all of the air had gone out of the Athletics' balloon. Right after the home run, I called my Mum on the phone and told her "It's over". I knew, absolutely knew, that the Reds would win it...


It's funny because as a little kid A's fan I thought the exact same thing. It was after Rickey struck out looking to start the game/Series (this never, ever happened in 1990 which was his glory year) and then Stewart gave up the home run. I remember thinking the exact same thing - it was over. And it was.
   57. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4106037)
It was fascinating to look at the overprints that made the stamp cost several million marks


Cool -- I had some of those! May still ... My old Scott Stamp Album (which my mom got for me with S&H Green Stamps back around 1970) vanished somewhere during a series of relocations & divorces back in, I guess, the '80s, but I've still got a small box of loose stamps from way back.
   58. Squash Posted: April 13, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4106041)
And let me add that Eric Davis is my absolute favorite 1980s player, as mentioned in the thread about him a few weeks back. Just an absolute stud. Some of those stat lines are insane. He had it all.
   59. AROM Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4106051)
Frank Robinson, Curt Flood and Vada Pinson at McClymonds High School in Oakland.


They may not have all played OF then (I think Flood was an infielder to start, not sure on the others) but few major league outfields in history were as good as that high school OF.
   60. smileyy Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4106067)
It's funny because as a little kid A's fan I thought the exact same thing. It was after Rickey struck out looking to start the game/Series (this never, ever happened in 1990 which was his glory year) and then Stewart gave up the home run. I remember thinking the exact same thing - it was over. And it was.


Aw. For every sweet, I guess there's some bitter, huh? At least you guys took one title with that team. Do you have any recollection at the time of whether acquiring Willie Randolph and Willie McGee was seen by anyone as gilding the lily or messing with a good thing, or was it regarded as something that would clinch the title for the A's?
   61. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4106071)
Frank Robinson, Curt Flood and Vada Pinson at McClymonds High School in Oakland.

and, as I'm sure everyone knows, Robinson played on the basketball team with Bill Russell
   62. phredbird Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4106081)
"Too far" is such an amazing understatement! It also allows for interpretations like, "Conquering Poland was reasonable, but Russia? He got a bit greedy." Or, "Hitler was right to hate, prosecute and marginalize Jews, but exterminating them was just a little gauche for my tastes."


ever read peter viertel's 'white hunter black heart'? there's a great episode where the protagonist and the movie director he works for (patterned after john huston) are chatting with a british expat couple at a hotel bar somewhere in africa, and she says something just like that. the john huston-type character stops dead and tells her he thinks she's the ugliest ##### he's ever met. i'm not sure but i think i read somewhere that most of the book was basically a rehash of actual events (viertel worked for huston on 'the african queen') ...
   63. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4106104)
Aw. For every sweet, I guess there's some bitter, huh? At least you guys took one title with that team. Do you have any recollection at the time of whether acquiring Willie Randolph and Willie McGee was seen by anyone as gilding the lily or messing with a good thing, or was it regarded as something that would clinch the title for the A's?


As a White Sox fan, I remember the A's picking up McGee and Harold Baines as a kick in the throat when the Sox were chasing them. At the time, the White Sox were considering adding Jerry Hairston Sr. and Minnie Minoso to their roster.
   64. Squash Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4106105)
Aw. For every sweet, I guess there's some bitter, huh? At least you guys took one title with that team. Do you have any recollection at the time of whether acquiring Willie Randolph and Willie McGee was seen by anyone as gilding the lily or messing with a good thing, or was it regarded as something that would clinch the title for the A's?

Ha! Yeah I guess so. It's all good, we won one, you won one, everybody's happy. 1990 must have been awesome for you guys. re: Randolph and McGee, I think most A's fans just thought it was kind of weird and cool that a team so obviously already stacked could add a few more stars out of the blue. McGee in particular - everyone was watching the NL batting race and hoping he would win. McGee was also insanely fast - I was at a game that year right after he got traded where he scored from first on an errant pickoff throw, which even with the Coliseum's bounty of foul ground was pretty incredible to see. My Mom just said "Wow". Looking at BBRef, it was this game:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/OAK/OAK199008310.shtml
   65. zenbitz Posted: April 13, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4106110)
Hmmm... Buy it, scrape it for hair and skin cells, extract DNA, clone Hitler.


I know you are just joking, but MOST AWESOME PSYCHOBIOLOGY/GENETICS EXPERIMENT EVAH.
You'd have to double blind it though. You could clone like 20 or 30 famous people and distribute them to foster homes.

The weird part is that you can pretty much do this now, scientifically if not legally.
   66. Dale Sams Posted: April 13, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4106141)
Sooner or later I'll start collecting model tanks, Marders, Hetzers, M10s, M36's.

As for Schott, I remember her being upset about opening day being cancelled because that ump died...a sight (though seen on tv, not irl) That I'll never forget.
   67. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 13, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4106218)
Screw the memorabilia. I collect Nazis. I keep them in a lime pit in my basement.
   68. Ron J Posted: April 13, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4106251)
#42 It's not like you have to guess (There are over 100 DMN posts on Usenet on the subject of Schott -- there were a fair number of threads on the subject in the early to mid 90s IOW just because you didn't know about Usenet didn't mean l'affair Schott wasn't a fairly big deal there):

Here's a bit of what DMN wrote on the subject: (He's responding to the nonsense starting with the >)

>Americans who have an education know exactly
>what hitler did, and one thing was to get the
>economy in Germany going.

It's rather dubious to give credit to Hitler for this, but that's
beside the point, because that isn't what Marge Schott said.

She said that he was _good_ at first. Not "good for the economy." But
"good." And THEN he went too far.

This is historical ignorance; there was never any time at which Hitler
was good. There is no time when he DIDN'T go too far. He went too far
FROM THE BEGINNING.


Ray wasn't involved in the Marge threads of the early to mid-90s, though he did comment on the situation in one of the discussions about Rocker. (Again, his bit is the part that isn't indented)

>>If the powers that be in MLB have any credibility whatsoever then they
>>should follow their own example. :Remember a few years ago when Marge
>>Schott then the owner of the Reds made some pro Nazi comments due to her
>>German heritage Baseball's owners banned her from the leauge and
>>eventully forced her to sell the Reds.

>Bad example. Marge Scott was an employer, making it a much different.

Correct. She had the power to hire and fire. And another big
difference is that Rocker is part of a union and thus there's a CBA in
place.

>> If Baseball has any credibilty
>>then Rocker should be banned from Baseball for life the way Schott was.

>That's stupid. You want to ban him from baseball for his first amendment
>rights? The guy would win hundreds of millions in a lawsuit against baseball.

But this is wrong, and represents a fundamental misunderstanding that
a lot of people are exhibiting about the First Amendment. The First
Amendment protects Rocker against action by the *government*. And
since the government isn't punishing him for anything here, the First
Amendment is irrelevant to this discussion.

Contrary to popular belief, the First Amendment does not protect the
speaker against the consequences of his words. Try going up to your
boss and telling him his wife is ugly. Then announce that he can't do
anything to you because, "Nyah, nyah, free speech, First Amendment,
nyah nyah!!" See if you still have a job the next day.




   69. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 13, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4106262)
I know you are just joking, but MOST AWESOME PSYCHOBIOLOGY/GENETICS EXPERIMENT EVAH.
You'd have to double blind it though. You could clone like 20 or 30 famous people and distribute them to foster homes.

The weird part is that you can pretty much do this now, scientifically if not legally.


Hmmm, you might have a movie on your hands.
   70. NTNgod Posted: April 13, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4106276)
"Let's make multiple clones of Hitler" had already been done as a novel & movie back in the '70s. THE BOYS FROM BRAZIL, with a rare Gregory Peck bad-guy role (as Mengele) in the movie version.

(my sarcasm detector might be on the fritz again, though)
   71. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 13, 2012 at 09:23 PM (#4106277)
My dad was also a philatelist

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
   72. Tripon Posted: April 13, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4106281)
A little while back, they seemed to find Hitler's actual son, he's apparently a Frenchman from a tryst back in Hitler's WWI days.
   73. Der_K Posted: April 13, 2012 at 11:00 PM (#4106367)
There's also a pretty funny Mr. Show skit involving hitler clones.
   74. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: April 14, 2012 at 06:15 AM (#4106445)
I think it would be much more interesting to clone Eric Davis than Hitler.
   75. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 14, 2012 at 07:25 AM (#4106452)
Oh my God, Usenet!

I wish there was an archive of the Prodigy baseball message boards.
   76. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 07:37 AM (#4106455)
“To have my owner call me her ‘million-dollar — ,’ it didn’t really sit good with me,”

This is just disgusting, offensive language. It didn't sit well with you, Eric.
   77. baudib Posted: April 14, 2012 at 07:44 AM (#4106457)
I am shocked that this incident is old enough to not be familiar to everyone. FWIW, I believe Marge coined the "good in the beginning, but went too far" line, which sort of became a joke, equivalent to the Internet memes of today.

   78. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 07:49 AM (#4106459)
I was 9 at the time and though I didn't recall the specifics at all until reading this, Marge Schott is forever associated in my mind with Hitler.

I believe there are quite a few BTF folks younger than me. Time flies!
   79. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 14, 2012 at 07:50 AM (#4106461)
Are there UseNet game threads from old classic games...like 1996 World series?
   80. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 07:54 AM (#4106465)
By the way, as a historian the preservation of threads like those (or even this one) make me extremely jealous. Trying to piece together entire world views from the odd letter to an aunt or pamphlets advertising cures for the sniffles is a bit challenging. The daily navel-gazing that goes on here would be an absolute boon to a historian.
   81. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 14, 2012 at 08:09 AM (#4106470)
Trying to piece together entire world views from the odd letter to an aunt or pamphlets advertising cures for the sniffles is a bit challenging.
I would kill for those sorts of sources. Try reconstructing antiquity!
   82. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 08:26 AM (#4106473)
I would kill for those sorts of sources. Try reconstructing antiquity!

Oh just lift a scene or two from HBO's Rome. No one will know the difference! As a kid I actually wanted to be a German historian. But then I found out I'd need to actually learn German to read the sources. Who knew?

I went to school with a guy who was working on Roman Bacchanalia cults as some kind of money launderin scheme for organized crime. The fact that you guys translate your sources yourselves blew my mind. I have a hard enough time reading 17th cenutry hand-writing in English.
   83. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 14, 2012 at 08:53 AM (#4106477)
But then I found out I'd need to actually learn German to read the sources. Who knew?

You could have been a professor at The College on the Hill.
   84. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 14, 2012 at 08:55 AM (#4106479)
The trade-off, I guess, is that there are so few sources that I pretty much know what all of them are. I'm working on martyrdom, which means I need to know maybe thirty or so mostly pretty short texts, written over a period of ~200 years.
   85. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 08:59 AM (#4106481)
I actually know shockingly little about classical sources. I'm guessing you're dealing with mostly later copies? Where are they usually housed?
   86. Bob Evans Posted: April 14, 2012 at 08:59 AM (#4106482)
The daily navel-gazing that goes on here would be an absolute boon to a historian.

Imagine what he could learn about the Spanish Civil War from our local savants.
   87. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4106500)
Imagine what he could learn about the Spanish Civil War from our local savants.

It would be a great resource for a study of what early 21st century baseball fans thought was significant about the Spanish Civil War. Which I'm 80% sure will be the focus of a doctoral thesis at some point by the year 2100.

edited to get my centuries right.
   88. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 14, 2012 at 09:37 AM (#4106501)
I actually know shockingly little about classical sources. I'm guessing you're dealing with mostly later copies? Where are they usually housed?
The manuscripts are mostly medieval(ish) copies. For some texts we have scraps of ancient papyrus which can be dated to around the time of the composition of the texts, and for the bible we have a couple ancient codices dating back to the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries.

Most ancient historians don't get to work with the actual manuscripts themselves. We work mostly from published editions and high-quality photographs.
   89. Swedish Chef Posted: April 14, 2012 at 09:40 AM (#4106502)
Which I'm 80% sure will be the focus of a doctoral thesis at some point by the year 2100.

Either that or a big-budget action movie. "The flamewars have started again, the fate of the world is in the balance as the threads spiral out of control. Only one man can save civilization now. Arnold Schwarzenegger IV is Greg (U)K in BBTF III: The Snark Apocalypse"
   90. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 14, 2012 at 09:42 AM (#4106503)
FWIW, I believe Marge coined the "good in the beginning, but went too far" line

The words may not have been identical, but the same sentiment was voiced by the guy on the right in this photograph after Hitler declared war on the U.S.
   91. Greg (U)K Posted: April 14, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4106509)
Please, I've long maintained that the only actor (or descendants thereof) that has the correct bone structure to play me is David Arquette. Unless some great-grandson of Mick Foley learns how to act.
   92. something like a train wreck Posted: April 14, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4106515)
I thought I had checked "keep your eyes off my navel" in the privacy settings.
   93. greenback Posted: April 14, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4106518)
Most ancient historians don't get to work with the actual manuscripts themselves.

I guess that's why you have young graduate students around.
   94. ASmitty Posted: April 14, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4106521)
I guess that's why you have young graduate students around.


That is but one of the reasons why I would have young graduate students around.
   95. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 14, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4106528)
Imagine what he could learn about the Spanish Civil War from our local savants.

"Franco was good at the beginning, but then ..." (oh, never mind)
   96. Dag Nabbit has the talking pillow Posted: April 14, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4106542)
I'm working on martyrdom

A willingness to post in BTF political threads doesn't make you a martyr, pal. A masochist, but not a martyr.
   97. Ron J Posted: April 14, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4106556)
#79 Usenet didn't really lend itself to game chatter. It took time to propagate. (Generally not a lot but enough to matter, and propagation could be weird. You might never see a particular message -- just responses to it)

A quick check of the Braves NG shows plenty of post-game discussions. And a note that somebody had set up a chat server for Braves fans.

EDIT: Plenty of drive by's -- "your team sux, my team roolz!!!" type of posts. Oddly enough this didn't work any better as a conversation starter then than it does now.
   98. PreservedFish Posted: April 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4106565)
Just a couple days ago I thought to myself: Hey, I should become an historian.

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