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Monday, January 07, 2013

Kilgore: Stephen Strasburg and Robert Griffin III: The inevitable and cloying comparison

The choices say more about the mores of the respective sports than the men making them. Football is brutal and vicious, and players are pumped with all manner of painkillers and drugs to get them through Sunday. You wonder if ANY coach would have pulled Griffin if he thought Griffin gave them the best chance to win. Baseball keeps counts on the number of pitches thrown. Baseball players are tough, but they can also walk when they are 60.

Both Griffin and Strasburg faced their dilemma with the same rub-dirt-on-it ethos. Shanahan said he based his decision on what Griffin told him – that he was “hurt” and not “injured.” Strasburg raged at the decision to shut him down and repeatedly told Nationals brass he felt fine. Players always want to play.

When Rizzo made his decision, he took all competitive considerations out of play and made what he believed was a purely medical decision. When Shanahan made his decision, he placed victory above all and, if Dr. James Andrews’s quotes to USA Today tell the full story, may have willfully ignored medical opinion.

JE (Jason) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 12:33 PM | 179 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: football, injuries, nationals, nfl

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   101. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4341103)
If I recall they showed the replay of him banging his head and taking off his helmet all throughout the game and afterwards.


Nobody said anything about a possible concussion - either during the telecast or today. Shanahan just did a presser, and I don't think anything was mentioned about any perceived head injury. To say he was "clearly concussed" when there appears to be ZERO evidence of a concussion other than him hitting his head on the ground, I'm not buying it. Not every hit is a concussion.
   102. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4341119)
Just got back from lunch and have not had a chance to read all the comments but there are plenty of times where a player in the NFL with an injury came back to play a big game or playoff game. Forgive me if someone has brought this up already but we are not that far removed from Jay Cutler taking himself out of a game and having most of the talking heads on TV along with countless fans questioning his fortitude only for it to come up later that he was hurt. Yet the difference there is that Cutler isn't well liked by most.


I have a problem with the way the NFL is legislating penalties regarding shots to the head. You can legislate all you want but it still wont matter because there are plenty of times when a RB goes though the hole leading with his head and the defender meets him head on and there is no penalty. So it seems like you are only trying to protect the QB and the WR's with all these rule changes. if you really wanted to be serious about removing players leading with their heads, you would need to either remove the helmet itself or go back to leather helmets.
   103. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4341121)
Nobody said anything about a possible concussion - either during the telecast or today. Shanahan just did a presser, and I don't think anything was mentioned about any perceived head injury. To say he was "clearly concussed" when there appears to be ZERO evidence of a concussion other than him hitting his head on the ground, I'm not buying it. Not every hit is a concussion.


After this call I'll try to find a video. The fact that the head coach currently being pilloried for playing a hurt QB all game isn't mentioning another potential injury, this one a head injury that has been infamous in recent times, is hardly shocking.
   104. JE (Jason) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4341122)
Remember the grief Jay Cutler had to endure two years ago?
Among those who don't know Cutler's body are Jaguars running back Maurice Jones-Drew, Eagles cornerback Asante Samuel, future Hall of Famer and NFL Network analysts Deion Sanders and many others who absurdly rushed to judgment on Cutler's manhood during the game. All they knew was he was standing on the sidelines with a knee injury. They knew nothing else.

Their ignorance, though, didn't stop them from ripping Cutler in an embarrassing and ugly Twitter-fueled assault.

"If I'm on chicago team jay cutler has to wait till me and the team shower get dressed and leave before he comes in the locker room! #FACT," tweeted Cardinals defensive lineman Darnell Dockett.

"HEY," tweeted former Bucs linebacker Derrick Brooks, "there is no medicine for a guy with no guts and heart."
   105. Ron J2 Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4341124)
#17 Speaking as an old Leafs fan, Bobby Baun in the 1962 Stanley Cup finals tops the list of effective gutting it out.

Late in the game he blocked a Gordie Howe shot. It broke a bone in his ankle. Stretchered off. He came back in the same game and scored an overtime winner. Remarkable in itself in that he was primarily a defensive defenseman. (4 goal, 18 assists all year)

He refused to allow doctors to examine the ankle before game 7. Played the full game (well) and then had an X-ray. Which showed the break clearly.
   106. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4341128)
After this call I'll try to find a video. The fact that the head coach currently being pilloried for playing a hurt QB all game isn't mentioning another potential injury, this one a head injury that has been infamous in recent times, is hardly shocking.


I understand Shanahan wouldn't offer up that kind of information on his own, but you'd think someone would question him about it if there was any lingering concern out there that Griffin experienced a head injury yesterday.
   107. Flynn Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4341130)
From what I recall, Cutler wasn't obviously hobbling around like RG3 was, disregarding that people don't like Cutler but do like RG3.

Everybody knows he was hurt before the game and he wasn't getting less obviously hurt as the game went on.
   108. JE (Jason) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4341136)
From what I recall, Cutler wasn't obviously hobbling around like RG3 was, disregarding that people don't like Cutler but do like RG3.

Agreed, but it does highlight the enduring zeitgeist inside the NFL.
   109. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4341137)
Nobody ever called Strasberg "cornball"!
   110. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4341139)
The Day the NFL called Cutler a coward.

You know its bad when you have other players calling you out via Twitter.
   111. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4341140)
If I recall they showed the replay of him banging his head and taking off his helmet all throughout the game and afterwards.

I clearly remember what's being referred to, but it never occurred to me - at the time of the play or at any point afterwards - that he had hit his head on that play.
   112. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4341153)
I understand Shanahan wouldn't offer up that kind of information on his own, but you'd think someone would question him about it if there was any lingering concern out there that Griffin experienced a head injury yesterday.


I think you underestimate the investment the NFL and the broadcasters have in football being "safe" and the "concussion" problem being about "illegal hits." To indicate that a simple fall to the ground could be concussive (which is the case) is to give away the game.
   113. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4341158)
To indicate that a simple fall to the ground could be concussive (which is the case) is to give away the game.


Possibly baseball as well. How did Ryan Freel suffer all those concussions?
   114. Flynn Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:33 PM (#4341160)
I don't know if it's a concussion. It might be, considering that pretty much anytime you hit your head it causes some brain trauma.

It does highlight one issue: players wear their helmets too big. I'm pretty sure your helmet should be tight to your head, like when we were kids and you were supposed to put your fingers in the earhole, pull out and then pull it off your head. Guys wear their helmets like baseball hats now, and I think that gives your head some extra opportunities to bounce around your helmet, causing further trauma to your brain and reducing the effectiveness of all the cushioning air pockets inside the helmet.
   115. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4341162)
I clearly remember what's being referred to, but it never occurred to me - at the time of the play or at any point afterwards - that he had hit his head on that play.


I argue that that is conditioning on your part.
   116. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4341163)
A simple fall to the ground can be concussive, but I have a problem with a diagnosis of concussion based on nothing more than seeing the player hit the ground.
   117. Gamingboy Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4341169)


Possibly baseball as well. How did Ryan Freel suffer all those concussions?


Well, at least one of them came from running into somebody else, right?
   118. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4341172)
If I recall they showed the replay of him banging his head and taking off his helmet all throughout the game and afterwards.


It was mentioned during the broadcast (there was a sideline report about it) that he was having trouble with the in-helmet speaker relaying the calls from the sideline, at least in the 1st half (I don't recall if anything was said about it later on).
   119. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4341187)
A simple fall to the ground can be concussive, but I have a problem with a diagnosis of concussion based on nothing more than seeing the player hit the ground.


My television-based diagnosis has more to do with his look and behavior after the fall, as he took off his helmet, than with the fall itself.
   120. Random Transaction Generator Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:03 PM (#4341188)
"Alright, we are up two scores, all we need to put this game on ice is some Rex Grossman magic".


Rex Grossman was inactive for yesterday's game. They didn't have a 3rd QB at all.
Add that to the bizarre coaching carousel.
   121. depletion Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4341194)
Ray Lewis (he of the confession of obstruction of justice charge regarding two murders

There weren't any murders. The two people in this case were acquitted. I believe it was due to them acting in self-defense when attacked.
   122. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:25 PM (#4341202)
There weren't any murders. The two people in this case were acquitted.


Which doesn't mean there weren't any murders. OJ is the easy go-to example of this.

Or, see this Frasier episode:

Frasier: Van Cortland? I thought he lost his membership in the S&L scandal.

Spencer: Actually, he was acquitted of all charges and reinstated to the club.

Frasier: Oh, he was innocent?

Spencer: No... just acquitted.
   123. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4341209)
My television-based diagnosis has more to do with his look and behavior after the fall, as he took off his helmet, than with the fall itself.

Griffin looked pretty alert in the side line close-ups during the game, and didn't show any concussion symptoms in his post-game news conference or locker room interviews. Probably not a best medical practice to have untrained non-medical types attempt to diagnose concussions via television.
   124. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4341214)
Griffin looked pretty alert in the side line close-ups during the game, and didn't show any concussion symptoms in his post-game news conference or locker room interviews. Probably not a best medical practice to have untrained non-medical types attempt to diagnose concussions via television.


And what was the "best medical practice" that Andrews and Shanahan were using up close to keep an obviously hobbled Griffin in the game to risk further serious injury?
   125. JE (Jason) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:45 PM (#4341217)
The Washington Post's Maske and Jones:
The MRI exam of Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III’s right knee suggested that Griffin has suffered partial tears of his anterior cruciate and lateral collateral ligaments, according to several people with knowledge of the test results.
   126. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:48 PM (#4341219)
Griffin looked pretty alert in the side line close-ups during the game


He "shook it off" the way players used to shake off concussive hits all the time. That doesn't change the fact that the game is fundamentally undermined by the fact that chronic brain damage is done on a thousand simple plays, every snap.
   127. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:51 PM (#4341225)
The MRI exam of Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III’s right knee suggested that Griffin has suffered partial tears of his anterior cruciate and lateral collateral ligaments, according to several people with knowledge of the test results.


Translation? How bad might this be?
   128. JE (Jason) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:54 PM (#4341230)
Here's more info from the article:

It was not immediately clear whether surgery would be required or how long Griffin would be sidelined if the partial ligament tears are determined to be fresh injuries. Griffin suffered a torn ACL in the same knee in 2009 while he was in college at Baylor, and has been playing in recent weeks with a mild sprain of the LCL.

One person with knowledge of the situation said Griffin might have to undergo exploratory surgery to determine the extent of the damage and whether the injuries are new. Another said Griffin hopes to avoid full-blown reconstructive surgery if the tears are partial, even if they are new injuries.

A third person familiar with the case, asked whether the ligament damage is new or a matter of previous injuries showing up on Griffin’s MRI, said: “That’s what we’re trying to find out.”
   129. villageidiom Posted: January 07, 2013 at 06:59 PM (#4341235)
Ultimately, Shanahan did remove him, so it's just a matter of what signs he needed in order to believe that was the right thing to do. RGIII lying face down on the ground, unable to get a snap, was what it took. I get the impression that many reasonable people saw signs during the game, and some before the game.

Was Shanahan the last person to see the signs? Is there anyone who thought when RGIII came out that he should have stayed in? No? Then Mike Shanahan was literally the last person to see that RGIII shouldn't be on the field.
   130. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:00 PM (#4341236)
He "shook it off" the way players used to shake off concussive hits all the time.


You have no idea whether or not he suffered a concussion on that play. Please stop pretending that you do.
   131. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4341239)
Was Shanahan the last person to see the signs? Is there anyone who thought when RGIII came out that he should have stayed in? No? Then Mike Shanahan was literally the last person to see that RGIII shouldn't be on the field.


I forget _exactly_ what the tv announcers were saying -- i.e., should he be pulled -- but they were making a lot of noise about how RG3 was shot.
   132. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4341240)
You have no idea whether or not he suffered a concussion on that play. Please stop pretending that you do.


Protect your idols of violence, man. They're really important and stuff.
   133. Squash Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:10 PM (#4341243)
The deificaiton of Ray Lewis has been sickening. Meanwhile, athletes like Bonds and Clemens and McGwire and Palmeiro are vilified.

We were talking about this commercial (the one with the little girl at the press conference) while watching the Ravens game, with the chatter along the lines that if I/we had free reign to ask Ray Lewis whatever question we wanted it would be more along the lines of "So, did you stab those two guys?" rather than what his favorite color was.
   134. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4341247)
We were talking about this commercial (the one with the little girl at the press conference) while watching the Ravens game, with the chatter along the lines that if I/we had free reign to ask Ray Lewis whatever question we wanted it would be more along the lines of "So, did you stab those two guys?" rather than what his favorite color was.
All it would take to get that critical light focused back on Lewis would be for him to break the home run record. Killing a guy... eh. Breaking the record, on the other hand, is unforgivable.
   135. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:39 PM (#4341257)
Keen to see what the course of action will be on those partial tears. This is way more damage than I anticipated...
   136. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:45 PM (#4341263)
I clearly remember what's being referred to, but it never occurred to me - at the time of the play or at any point afterwards - that he had hit his head on that play.

I argue that that is conditioning on your part.


I've been brainwashed! Yay for the cult of violence! Isn't it pretty tough to argue MY state of mind while watching TV? You have no idea what my background is or what my beliefs on head trauma vis a vis the NFL are.


My television-based diagnosis has more to do with his look and behavior after the fall, as he took off his helmet, than with the fall itself.

Can you be more specific? He was hurt. He was known to be injured before the game, he was known to be injured during the game, we know he was injured more seriously during the game at least once. My television-based diagnosis is that his ####### knee hurt because his knee was hurt. On what do you base your competing diagnosis?


The MRI exam of Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III’s right knee suggested that Griffin has suffered partial tears of his anterior cruciate and lateral collateral ligaments, according to several people with knowledge of the test results.

Translation? How bad might this be?


Pretty bad. For comparison purposes, Adrian Peterson suffered a full ACL tear on 12/25/11 and was hailed as a miraculous superhero (and/or steroid user) for being ready to play Week 1 of the current season. Griffin, as noted, has a history of injury to these ligaments. My television-based diagnosis of his final play yesterday, based on my experience with ligament injuries was at LEAST a partial tear of either or both ACL/LCL and most likely a complete tear of at least one. That's exactly how knees flop around sideways when the ligament has been weakened (sprained) or torn.
   137. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 07:57 PM (#4341269)
I've been brainwashed!


I never argued as much. I said you were conditioned. Which is to say, you live in the world of material events and behaviors.

My television-based diagnosis is that his ####### knee hurt because his knee was hurt. On what do you base your competing diagnosis?


My "diagnosis" is merely that he fell hard, cracked his head against the frozen ground, to the point where it came off of his head, and when he looked up he was clearly dazed and confused. That may or may not have been concussive, but it sure as #### looked the part, and had those same events have occurred due to a hit in the pocket or on the end of a run due to contact by a defender, the league rules for concussive testing would have been invoked.
   138. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 07, 2013 at 08:12 PM (#4341285)
My "diagnosis" is merely that he fell hard, cracked his head against the frozen ground . . .

The rest of this "diagnosis" is no more accurate than its assessment of the Famous Non-Frozen Tundra of FedEx Field. Check Sunday's temperature.
   139. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 08:30 PM (#4341301)
The rest of this "diagnosis" is no more accurate than its assessment of the Famous Non-Frozen Tundra of FedEx Field. Check Sunday's temperature.


Seriously? You're going to nitpick this?
   140. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 07, 2013 at 08:45 PM (#4341306)
That may or may not have been concussive, but it sure as #### looked the part


Thank you for finally admitting you don't know whether or not he got a concussion! "It sure looked the part" is not enough to establish a fact.
   141. DKDC Posted: January 07, 2013 at 08:54 PM (#4341310)
Three points from someone who has watched every snap RG3 has taken this year:

1) Griffin got a mild concussion in the Falcons game, so we know what a concussed RG3 looks like (hint – very disoriented). I did not see anything like that yesterday, although I suppose it’s possible it was a much milder concussion. There was a play where he fell backwards out of bounds awkwardly and I think that’s the play where he aggravated his knee injury. He got to his feet and stumbled a bit as he put weight on his bum knee, so maybe that looked like a concussion to some armchair MDs.

2) I fully support RG3 starting the game. He had played two full games since his injury and was looking healthier and more mobile every week and he looked good in the first quarter. At the time it seemed perfectly reasonable that he was slowly recovering from his knee injury and the brace and playing more cautiously would help protect him from further injury. And Cousins played nicely a couple times as a fill-in, but he’s nowhere near the passer or runner or game-changing that RG3 is, even when he’s at 80%.

3) That being said, Griffin clearly aggravated his knee injury in the first half, after which he couldn’t run or pass and he was in pain. He looked worse than he did in his first game back against the Eagles, and it was clear something was wrong. I don’t begrudge Shanahan for leaving him in for a drive or two afterwards to see if he could tough it out. But I truly don’t understand how Shanahan could make the wrong choice after having a halftime to think it over – which afforded him plenty of time to have RG3 examined, come up with a gameplan for Cousins and stop and think for a minute.
   142. jobu Posted: January 07, 2013 at 09:13 PM (#4341313)
We were talking about this commercial (the one with the little girl at the press conference) while watching the Ravens game, with the chatter along the lines that if I/we had free reign to ask Ray Lewis whatever question we wanted it would be more along the lines of "So, did you stab those two guys?"

Squash, I don't know what free rein would entail, but I would pay to watch someone ask this guy (who seems just a tad amped up) such a question. Would Ray Lewis be physically restrained when you asked the question? Would you be given, say, a 20 yard head start?
   143. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 09:27 PM (#4341328)
I've cracked as many Ray Lewis jokes as anyone over the years, but you know, he did 1) turn states evidence and 2) lived what seems to have been a spotless life after his come-to-Jesus moment in Atlanta. So there's that.
   144. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 07, 2013 at 09:29 PM (#4341331)
Thank you for finally admitting you don't know whether or not he got a concussion!


I sometimes forget that BTF is populated by a bunch of ####### pendants and rules lawyers.

Griffin got a mild concussion in the Falcons game, so we know what a concussed RG3 looks like (hint – very disoriented). I did not see anything like that yesterday, although I suppose it’s possible it was a much milder concussion. There was a play where he fell backwards out of bounds awkwardly and I think that’s the play where he aggravated his knee injury. He got to his feet and stumbled a bit as he put weight on his bum knee, so maybe that looked like a concussion to some armchair MDs.


Someone mentioned that he said that play "scared him," so it might have just been fear and trepidation about the knee that made him look groggy and disoriented getting up, but he certainly looked groggy and disoriented getting up.
   145. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 07, 2013 at 10:44 PM (#4341499)
1) Griffin got a mild concussion in the Falcons game, so we know what a concussed RG3 looks like (hint – very disoriented). I did not see anything like that yesterday, although I suppose it’s possible it was a much milder concussion.


Neuroanatomical localization couldn't be a factor in the acute reaction to trauma?
   146. rexhound33 Posted: January 07, 2013 at 11:26 PM (#4341589)
The one takeaway I have from yesterday's action & reporting - the NFL establishment does not care about the players well being. If Shanahan lied about having a direct conversation with Dr. James Andrews during the Baltimore game, why does it take a month to speak up? If I'm Andrews, and have made my fortune on my reputation, I can't have Shanahan using my name and reputation in this manner. I am either calling out Shanahan or allowing the team to issue some sort of apology or clarification right away. By taking a month, his name comes up in an interesting way right before his book goes on sale. I don't see how he can be allowed to continue in a role as an unbiased team physician.

And for Shanahan, the main job of the head coach on Sunday is to let your players and coaches do their jobs, and be the one in charge of observing the game to assess what is and isn't working. If he couldn't tell that RGIII was not going to win him this game in the 2nd half, he deserves a pink slip. Perhaps thats not fair, without a 100% RGIII, it's likely the Skins lose anyway. This was a big blunder in judgement however.

Hope RGIII recovers fully.
   147. Publius Publicola Posted: January 07, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4341630)
If I'm Andrews, and have made my fortune on my reputation, I can't have Shanahan using my name and reputation in this manner.


I had an orthopedist who used to work for the Patriots. He quit working with the NFL because he said it required him to compromise his hippocratic oath too often.
   148. Publius Publicola Posted: January 07, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4341636)
Hope RGIII recovers fully.


I really don't think this is possible. By the look of how his knee was contorted, his ACL came apart again. I think you can survive one ACL reconstruction but I can't think of an athlete who came back from a second one who wasn't a shadow of his former self.
   149. McCoy Posted: January 08, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4341646)
If I'm Andrews, and have made my fortune on my reputation, I can't have Shanahan using my name and reputation in this manner.

Because his fortune is based on employment by professional teams and his reputation is what is used to get that employment. You burn a team you don't get a paycheck anymore.
   150. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2013 at 01:10 AM (#4341710)
I've cracked as many Ray Lewis jokes as anyone over the years, but you know, he did 1) turn states evidence


He was charged with murder and struck a deal. He also had to settle out of court with the families of the two victims.

and 2) lived what seems to have been a spotless life after his come-to-Jesus moment in Atlanta. So there's that.


I've seen this argument made a number of times over the past few days and it is truly bizarre. Oh, he stayed out of trouble with the law for 12 years? You don't say. Why, that's quite an accomplishment. Do most people have trouble with that? Answer: no.
   151. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 08, 2013 at 02:12 AM (#4341741)
I've seen this argument made a number of times over the past few days and it is truly bizarre. Oh, he stayed out of trouble with the law for 12 years? You don't say. Why, that's quite an accomplishment. Do most people have trouble with that? Answer: no.


Ray Lewis, by nearly every account, became a good man. Maybe a great man. I don't know him, but I think that's what impresses people - not that he stayed out of trouble.
   152. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 08, 2013 at 03:54 AM (#4341757)
I sometimes forget that BTF is populated by a bunch of ####### pendants and rules lawyers.


pendant
Noun
A piece of jewelry that hangs from a chain worn around the neck.

pedant
Noun
A person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning.
   153. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 08, 2013 at 04:55 AM (#4341759)
   154. Dan Posted: January 08, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4341815)
I really don't think this is possible. By the look of how his knee was contorted, his ACL came apart again. I think you can survive one ACL reconstruction but I can't think of an athlete who came back from a second one who wasn't a shadow of his former self.


Something I read claimed that a player can come back at around 85-93% after one ACL repair, but that you're looking at something like 70% after a second one. So yes, this injury has serious implications, especially if he ends up needing reconstructive surgery again on that ACL.
   155. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 08, 2013 at 09:55 AM (#4341819)
Kudos to @152. Funny. Not quite RDF, but F.
   156. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4341833)
That all said, you wonder what Russell Wilson is going to have to do to be the guy that people are talking about, and not be overshadowed by the other rookie quarterbacks. Maybe if he can be the last rookie starter whose team is alive in the playoffs....oh, wait.


Maybe if Russell Wilson went by a cheesy name, something like RW5, he would be as overhyped as Griffin is.
   157. SandyRiver Posted: January 08, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4341859)
The rest of this "diagnosis" is no more accurate than its assessment of the Famous Non-Frozen Tundra of FedEx Field. Check Sunday's temperature.

Seriously? You're going to nitpick this?


You were the one making reference to a frozen field, which would be a very important factor in a back-of-head bump, so it's not a nitpick but rather a calling to question of a relevant statement. DC (Ronald Reagan airport) recorded a high of 52 last Sunday and a low of 35. The previous day's high was 46 with a bit of rain. They haven't fallen below 27 yet this winter. The field was NOT frozen.
   158. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 08, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4341894)
Maybe if Russell Wilson went by a cheesy name, something like RW5, he would be as overhyped as Griffin is.

Griffin isn't over-hyped, just over-nicknamed and underprotected. Whether his style of play can survive for long in the NFL is the only real question about him.
   159. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 08, 2013 at 11:27 AM (#4341902)
You were the one making reference to a frozen field, which would be a very important factor in a back-of-head bump, so it's not a nitpick but rather a calling to question of a relevant statement. DC (Ronald Reagan airport) recorded a high of 52 last Sunday and a low of 35. The previous day's high was 46 with a bit of rain. They haven't fallen below 27 yet this winter. The field was NOT frozen.

Pete Carroll was bitterly complaining yesterday about the horrible quality of the FedEx field, and even though I tend to like Mud Bowls and unreadable jerseys, I find it hard to disagree with him. The "grass" between the hashmarks reminded me of Griffith Stadium, circa 1955. Apparently the home team gets to determine the acceptable level of playing conditions as long as they follow some sort of "procedure" in notifying the league about it.
   160. AuntBea Posted: January 08, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4341929)

Pete Carroll was bitterly complaining yesterday about the horrible quality of the FedEx field, and even though I tend to like Mud Bowls and unreadable jerseys, I find it hard to disagree with him. The "grass" between the hashmarks reminded me of Griffith Stadium, circa 1955. Apparently the home team gets to determine the acceptable level of playing conditions as long as they follow some sort of "procedure" in notifying the league about it.


I haven't yet found someone who agrees with me, but this is one of my favorite games of the last 20 years.
   161. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2013 at 12:00 PM (#4341941)
Griffin has a torn ACL and MCL. So, there ya go.
   162. SandyRiver Posted: January 08, 2013 at 12:16 PM (#4341956)
From what I heard, FedEx was like the New England bog that was featured in both the old Foxboro and early Gillette.
   163. The Good Face Posted: January 08, 2013 at 12:21 PM (#4341960)
Griffin has a torn ACL and MCL. So, there ya go.


Source? As of right now, both ESPN and the WaPo are talking about "possible partial tears of ACL & LCL".
   164. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2013 at 12:23 PM (#4341963)
Source? As of right now, both ESPN and the WaPo are talking about "possible partial tears of ACL & LCL".

CNNSI quoting the Post, though it looks now like CNNSI didn't RTF as the Post article does, indeed, reference the ACL and LCL.
   165. Bug Selig Posted: January 08, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4341988)
Ray Lewis, by nearly every account, became a good man. Maybe a great man.


Let's calm down a little. He had to be told that a throat-slitting element to the dance was in bad taste. A great man probably would have figured that out for himself.
   166. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2013 at 01:02 PM (#4342005)
Ray Lewis, by nearly every account, became a good man. Maybe a great man. I don't know him, but I think that's what impresses people - not that he stayed out of trouble.


I'll bite. What accomplishments since then have made him a good/great man?
   167. McCoy Posted: January 08, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4342035)

Maybe if Russell Wilson went by a cheesy name, something like RW5, he would be as overhyped as Griffin is.


I saw a great sign today which replaced the G in RGIII with a wheelchair symbol.
   168. McCoy Posted: January 08, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4342036)
I'll bite. What accomplishments since then have made him a good/great man?

Have you seen how many sacks he's recorded?
   169. bjhanke Posted: January 08, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4342137)
I'd, personally, have pulled RGIII as soon as he had the awkward recovery of the bad snap. But then, I'm also the guy who is starting to worry whether these college run-and-pass guys can actually succeed in the NFL. They all seem to get hurt, with GRIII and VICK at the top of the list. I think the Redskins are going to think themselves bamboozled at giving the Rams all those draft picks to a guy whose most Unusual weapon is something you essentially have to stop to keep him healthy. - Brock Hanke
   170. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: January 08, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4342182)
I'll bite. What accomplishments since then have made him a good/great man?


I'm not his publicist, just noting the perception of him as a reformed person goes beyond the fact he hasn't gotten into trouble with the po-po again.

An argument about him being a good man might point out the following (some of which may be perception rather than fact; after all, I don't know him nor do I have any particular interest in building up his image):

-Active in charity works/community
-Great teammate and leader
-Family man
-Nice person who is particularly gracious with his fans by nearly all accounts
-Best motivational speaker this side of Tony Robbins (this may not make you a "good person" but inspiring other people to do their best even if you're an ass is still worth something)

Maybe not all of the above is true. I don't know. But these are some of the things people are looking at when they talk about his so-called redemption as a person.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe he's a good guy. Your mileage may vary.

   171. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 08, 2013 at 04:00 PM (#4342205)
Well the Rams themselves are already feeling bamboozled because the 2013 #1 they got from Washington for the Griffin pick was supposed to be a top-10 pick and is now nearer the back of the pack.

I think it couldn't be clearer that the college-style zone-read-option movement will die out in the NFL within the next 1-2 seasons as pro defenses catch up with their college counterparts in learning how to defend the scheme by forcing the ball inside. Lots of backers and ends are going to be watching a lot of tape over the offseason of Ware looking foolish in Week 17.

Pete Carroll was bitterly complaining yesterday

You don't say

PPE: -Family man

By volume, certainly.
   172. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4342259)
Personally, I'm inclined to believe he's a good guy. Your mileage may vary.


I'm not saying he's been a bad guy since the Atlanta incident; I'm just saying that I've seen nothing to support the drooling over him since then as a great man. What you described above applies to the vast majority of people in this country.

   173. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4342261)
PPE: -Family man

By volume, certainly.


Six children by four women. That qualifies him as a families man.
   174. DKDC Posted: January 08, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4342304)
I think it couldn't be clearer that the college-style zone-read-option movement will die out in the NFL within the next 1-2 seasons as pro defenses catch up with their college counterparts in learning how to defend the scheme by forcing the ball inside.


So we'll see it die out in the NFL just like it died out in the college ranks?

I bet that you'll see more teams tinker with it over the next few years and there's certainly a reasonable chance it will become a permanent fixture in the NFL.

We probably aren't going to see a whole bunch of QBs with Griffin's combination of arm strength, accuracy, speed, athleticism, and ball-handling, because that package is so rare. But I think a lesser athlete can be successful in this scheme if he has the durability that I'm starting to suspect RG3 doesn't have.
   175. SandyRiver Posted: January 08, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4342323)
If coaches use it as "seasoning" rather than the main course, it could stick as a change of pace. However, for any QB short of the original Superman, limiting the hits shouhd come first, both for QB's and team's best interests.
   176. McCoy Posted: January 08, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4342333)
Rolls outs and such will always be part of playcalling but we won't see a lot of the college type calls like QB dives and such. Most of the QB's movement will be designed to buy time and create space for receivers and that is about it. If it happens that he can run off 10 yards or so without putting himself in too much danger so much the better but it won't be the primary reason to call the play.

But I think a lesser athlete can be successful in this scheme if he has the durability that I'm starting to suspect RG3 doesn't have.

Virtually no QB has that kind of durability while still also being much of a threat to pass the ball.
   177. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 08, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4342355)
PPE: -Family man

By volume, certainly.

Six children by four women. That qualifies him as a families man.
Antonio Cromartie has trouble remembering his kids

At least he isnt Antonio Cromartie
   178. DKDC Posted: January 08, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4342358)
Virtually no QB has that kind of durability while still also being much of a threat to pass the ball.


Virtually no QB has Peyton Manning or Tom Brady's skillset either. It only takes a handful.

Just because RG3 has proven to be fragile doesn't mean the scheme isn't workable. Avoiding injury and healing quickly are skills that vary widely from athlete to athlete.
   179. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 08, 2013 at 08:19 PM (#4342444)
So we'll see it die out in the NFL just like it died out in the college ranks?

I'm fairly certain that you know more about college football than I do. That being said, a lot of things work for good teams in NCAA that won't work for anyone in the NFL due to the disparity in level of competition. Tebow succeeded in NCAA despite his flaws as a passer because he played against a lot of LBs that he could simply run over when he needed to. Come to find out Adrian Peterson is the only human who can run over NFL LBs consistently.

Lots of teams 'tinkered with' what was called the Wildcat in the NFL for several years after the Dolphins' limited success with it garnered widespread attention. Didn't make it work any better.
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