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Monday, February 25, 2013

Kirk Gibson on off-season hunting and the great outdoors

Ted Nugent is a friend of mine
His killings have no purpose
No reason, or rhyme
Ted Nugent is a friend of mine

He is one of the most interesting managers in baseball.  When you think about the fact that Kirk Gibson holds an aviation record, he’s constantly looking for new ways to inspire his team.

Gibson is an avid outdoorsman and hunter.

Repoz Posted: February 25, 2013 at 04:49 PM | 396 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: d-backs

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   201. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4377130)
Just throwing in that taking young kids out to the woods or to check out tide pools is, in my opinion, excellent parenting.
Some of my very earliest memories are riding on the back of my Dad's bike out to the tide pools at Long Beach, and turning over starfish and stuff. Asking lots of questions. Getting my hands wet or dirty or both.

I'm going to have to check out that Ed Ricketts book, too. Amazing GF & I keep talking about taking a long weekend and staying at the (very nice) hostel in Monterey, just hanging out, walking on the beach, and reading Steinbeck. We haven't done it yet, but I really really want to.
   202. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4377131)
Forgot to add that hunting deer with dogs is also an extreme minority practice.


I've never heard or known of anyone hunting deer with dogs. Birds? of course,

Tresspassing is a big time taboo amongst hunters. Yes, it happens, and in particular it is a chronic issue with a specific group of people (Hmong) and I don't say that solely due to the Vang murders from a few years ago.
   203. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4377137)
Hunting for me is mainly solitary. Not completely so, but mainly. I love dawn & dusk hunts (and in CA, that's most of it) to see, hear, smell & feel the woods waking up and going to sleep.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Makes sense to me, and (coke to Shooty) reminds me of how I feel about taking pictures. Dawn and dusk are the perfect times for that as well. Sadly, my love of beer (and sleep) limits my dawn picture taking, but I always enjoy it when I make it out. There's something really cool about watching the land wake up and I love the fog the bay area gets in the morning.

For those who hate camping: have you tried it recently? I think the evolution in camping gear in the last 20 years has been spectacular. Backpacks are almost a pleasure to wear now and, for me at least, the difference between being miserable and enjoying myself is a good sleeping mat. The first backpacking trip that I can remember was with my uncle in the trinity alps in the mid 80s. We had external frame packs (and my uncle made me carry a pretty heavy load because I had offended him by claiming that Bruce Springsteen was better than Elvis), and I couldn't understand why anyone would voluntarily subject themselves to that sort of torture. Now I'm a big fan.
   204. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:28 PM (#4377138)
Just throwing in that taking young kids out to the woods [d]or to check out tide pools is, in my opinion, excellent parenting.


You ... you monster!
   205. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4377144)
I'm going to have to check out that Ed Ricketts book, too. Amazing GF & I keep talking about taking a long weekend and staying at the (very nice) hostel in Monterey, just hanging out, walking on the beach, and reading Steinbeck. We haven't done it yet, but I really really want to.

The tide pools there, especially in Pacific Grove, are amazing. When my mother still lived in the Salinas Valley, my perfect day was to get up early and hike The Pinnacles then drive to the tide pools for some clambering and then drive a bit north to Salinas River State Beach for the sunset (it's a pretty sparsely visited beach so you can be by yourself) and to watch the seabirds (and often dolphins and otters). If you do that, the area's best seafood and west coast Italian seafood place is right there in Moss Landing for dinner. I recommend the cioppino which for which they (Phil's Fish Market) are rightly famous. That place has gotten more popular and much larger since I was a kid, but it's still pretty great.
   206. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4377146)
You ... you monster!

If you haven't thrown a young child into a tide pool, you haven't lived IMO.

Also, is that hostel near Monterey the one with the hot tub?
   207. Austin Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4377148)
This is an excellent thread. I've known almost nobody who hunts or fishes, and the discussion here has substantially altered (for the better) how I view those activities.
   208. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4377155)
The tide pools there, especially in Pacific Grove, are amazing. When my mother still lived in the Salinas Valley, my perfect day was to get up early and hike The Pinnacles then drive to the tide pools for some clambering and then drive a bit north to Salinas River State Beach for the sunset (it's a pretty sparsely visited beach so you can be by yourself) and to watch the seabirds (and often dolphins and otters). If you do that, the area's best seafood and west coast Italian seafood place is right there in Moss Landing for dinner. I recommend the cioppino which for which they (Phil's Fish Market) are rightly famous. That place has gotten more popular and much larger since I was a kid, but it's still pretty great.

This sounds like a pretty perfect day for us, RIGHT NOW. Negotiations commencing...

Also, is that hostel near Monterey the one with the hot tub?

I don't think so? It's the youth hostel, right in the middle of Monterey. I've only ever stayed there when it was cold out, but I don't remember a hot tub there.
HOWEVER: DIY pancake breakfast included with the room/bunk!

And, finally, for anybody who likes to check out the migrating birds, I highly recommend the NWRs up around Sacramento. Beautiful spaces, lots of different bird species & ground critters. (and if you're driving south afterwards, there's an excellent cheap Indian place in Dixon)
   209. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4377161)
There's a hostel south of Half Moon Bay at Pigeon Point lighthouse that has a hot tub. In fact, that's where I plan to get married in the fall.
   210. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:49 PM (#4377163)
In fact, that's where I plan to get married in the fall.


Does Mrs. Shooty know about this?
   211. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4377165)
Does Mrs. Shooty know about this?

You mean I have to find someone to marry?

Naw, she's insisting, actually. I offered to do it in New York or Illinois (where she's from) but she wants to do it someplace nice instead. *rimshot!*
   212. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4377166)
I don't think so? It's the youth hostel, right in the middle of Monterey. I've only ever stayed there when it was cold out, but I don't remember a hot tub there.
HOWEVER: DIY pancake breakfast included with the room/bunk!

Ah, turns out the one I was thinking of is in Pescadero. Only 100 miles off.

Edit: Coke and congratulations to Shooty!
   213. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4377167)
Just to throw in a factoid that may or may not have been mentioned by now: According to the International Hunter Education Association, a bit over 1,000 North American hunters are accidentally shot each year, with slightly under 100 fatalities.

Some equally relevant (or equally irrelevant) factoids:
Over the past 20 years, Maine has averaged slightly under one hunting fatality per year among about 180,000 licensed hunters, and about 2 moose-collision human fatalities per year. Also 5-6 snowmobile fatals and probably twice that in boating-related drownings.


Hey, if it comes down to hunters vs snowmobilers, I'll take hunters every time.

Deer aren't moose (though zoologically, moose are deer), but I once read that human fatalities average about 1 per 5,000 deer/vehicle collisions. Last I heard, Pennsylvania averaged somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 such collisions annually, and nationwide it must be well into the hundreds of thousands.

That wouldn't surprise me. We need a deal with the deer.

   214. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4377171)
For those who hate camping: have you tried it recently? I think the evolution in camping gear in the last 20 years has been spectacular. Backpacks are almost a pleasure to wear now and, for me at least, the difference between being miserable and enjoying myself is a good sleeping mat.


you are definitely right about this, the equipment is substantially improved, I still don't like camping very much. I have the means to buy all the fancy camping stuff, and I do have some of it, but it doesn't change my tune.

btw: for those seeking the opposite of 'Trophy Kill of the Week', then Yukon Men is a pretty good TV program of subsistenance hunting in Alaska, last night replayed an episode of a woman shooting her first Moose, which ultimately provided 700 lbs of meat to the family for the winter. That is a humbling program.
   215. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4377177)
she wants to do it someplace nice instead.

So you're taking her to a hostel. Classy.

I kid, that's a beautiful spot.

   216. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4377179)
Congrats, Shooty!

Also, which Ricketts bio were you talking about? There seem to be a bunch out there - at least, more than I'd expected.
   217. Traderdave Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4377182)
Primate bachelor party for Shooty!
   218. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4377183)
Also, which Ricketts bio were you talking about? There seem to be a bunch out there - at least, more than I'd expected.

This is the one I read.

So you're taking her to a hostel. Classy.

Ha! We're not staying there, just the ceremony.
   219. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4377184)
you are definitely right about this, the equipment is substantially improved, I still don't like camping very much. I have the means to buy all the fancy camping stuff, and I do have some of it, but it doesn't change my tune.


A nice alternative to camping is the sort of point-to-point walking you can do in a lot of European countries (but not easily in the US), where you walk through the countryside all day and then stay in a different hostel or B&B or something every night. You generally can't get out into real wilderness this way, but it's nice for countryside walking. In the UK you at least you can often work it so that you'll get a pub lunch every day as well. It's really great for someone who likes the great outdoors but who doesn't want to monkey around with all of the hassles and discomforts of full-on camping.

EDIT: Also, I'm a vegetarian of 17 years standing, and (generally) pro-hunting. Until we allow mountain lions and wolves to roam the suburbs we'll need to shoot the damn deer to prevent them from ruining their local environments.
   220. Traderdave Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4377186)
And "Cannery Row" remains one of my favorite books. I re-read every few years and enjoy it each time.
   221. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4377188)
Primate bachelor party for Shooty!

I suggest a Belgian beer theme with a Pavement and 60's soul soundtrack.
   222. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4377195)
And "Cannery Row" remains one of my favorite books. I re-read every few years and enjoy it each time.

The cool thing about that book is it takes on the form of a tidal pool. I wrote a long paper in grad school about the relationship between Steinbeck and Ricketts and I'm convinced it's not a coincidence that Steinbeck's best novels were written before Ricketts died.
   223. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4377211)
There's a hostel south of Half Moon Bay at Pigeon Point lighthouse that has a hot tub. In fact, that's where I plan to get married in the fall.


Congrats!. And this thread has made me miss CA all over again. I need to get back and visit.

Until we allow mountain lions and wolves to roam the suburbs we'll need to shoot the damn deer to prevent them from ruining their local environments.


I am OK with this. Flock of wild turkeys in the hood a few years back for much of the summer and fall, and it was really cool (though I had to keep my dog away from them - he wanted to go say hello).
   224. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: February 27, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4377234)
allow mountain lions and wolves to roam the suburbs

You misspelled "encourage."
   225. Tim D Posted: February 27, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4377256)
Check out the speed of this defenseless deer:

http://www.grindtv.com/bike/blog/51174/deer+runs+into+and+crashes+mountain+biker+during+race+in+virginia/

On my trips to Florida for spring training (not this year regrettably, 6" of snow last night) I have tried to stay near small lakes just to catch the birds in the early mornings. Developed as central Florida is it is still fantastic for birds and gators.

Tide pools are awesome. I like them best on the central coast around Cayucos. Even in SoCal they are still good, with lots of creepy stuff.

How on earth can you buy meat/poultry/fish and assert that you aren't paying anyone to kill animals for you?

Oh, and deer kill far more people in motor vehicle accidents than deer hunters kill each other.
   226. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4377293)

I'm going to have to check out that Ed Ricketts book, too. Amazing GF & I keep talking about taking a long weekend and staying at the (very nice) hostel in Monterey, just hanging out, walking on the beach, and reading Steinbeck. We haven't done it yet, but I really really want to.

My wife and I spent a weekend in Monterey last year...we rented bicycles near the aquarium and rode around the edge of the peninsula down to Carmel - it is about a 16-mile ride each way and very beautiful.
   227. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4377297)
Check out the speed of this defenseless deer:


Your point...?
   228. Steve Treder Posted: February 27, 2013 at 06:37 PM (#4377300)
Primate bachelor party for Shooty!


I suggest a Belgian beer theme with a Pavement and 60's soul soundtrack.

Done and done. Shooty, if you don't get in contact with Traderdave and work in a meetup with us when you're in California getting married and all, we will consider your priorities sadly skewed.

Because we're gonna have the party, with you or without you.
   229. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: February 27, 2013 at 06:58 PM (#4377306)
Hear, hear!
[said in haughty British accent, for some reason]
   230. BDC Posted: February 27, 2013 at 07:00 PM (#4377311)
I suggest a Belgian beer theme with a Pavement and 60's soul soundtrack.

And Mike Crudale.
   231. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: February 27, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4377315)
Primate bachelor party for Shooty!

I'll pass. Those tend to have too much poop-flinging for my tastes. But congrats.
   232. Tim D Posted: February 27, 2013 at 08:43 PM (#4377340)
"Your point...?"

My point is that deer are really, really fast, and therefore really, really hard to kill. Duh.
   233. Publius Publicola Posted: February 27, 2013 at 08:55 PM (#4377346)
My point is that deer are really, really fast, and therefore really, really hard to kill. Duh.


Not when they're standing still and the hunter is comfortably camouflaged in deer blind.

Speaking of car accidents, I hit a deer once in an incident remarkably similar to the one that hit that dude on the bike. Same circumstance. I was bombing along at around 50 MPH and this deer with an ap[parent death wish ran directly in front of my car from left to right. I jammed on the brakes but the front right bumper cut its legs out from under her (I think it was doe but it happened so fast it was hard to tell) and her right flank smashed down on the hood of my car, leaving a significant indentation. It bounded off into the woods so it is hard to tell how badly it was hurt.
   234. BDC Posted: February 27, 2013 at 09:08 PM (#4377356)
I hit a deer once in an incident remarkably similar

La Dernière once hit a mule deer in New Mexico in similar circs. No word on the deer, but for a month or so thereafter there was a little swatch of deer fur caught in the lid of her car's headlights.
   235. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 27, 2013 at 09:58 PM (#4377371)
Until we allow mountain lions and wolves to roam the suburbs we'll need to shoot the damn deer to prevent them from ruining their local environments


true story: about 7-8 years ago on the South Fork road* south of Cody, WY, there was a mountain lion that leaped through a family's living room picture window, ultimately being trapped into a bedroom or a garage before a younger kid shot it dead.

*In the valley at the end of the South Fork Road about 30 miles south of Cody is some of the greatest ice climbing in the world, definitely in the lower 48. Pretty cool to drive down there in the winter and look out with binocs and see some guy hanging on to a 100m+ pillar of ice on the wall of a mountain.
ice climbing
   236. AuntBea Posted: February 27, 2013 at 10:23 PM (#4377383)
http://www.grindtv.com/bike/blog/51174/deer+runs+into+and+crashes+mountain+biker+during+race+in+virginia/

A good friend of a good friend was cycling home from school (grad student) near Austin and died this way.
   237. BDC Posted: February 27, 2013 at 10:38 PM (#4377392)
Mountain lions are occasionally seen in far suburban Arlington, TX. So are vultures, of course, and they'll be seen hovering over the Ballpark come July if the Rangers don't hit any better than I reckon they will.
   238. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: February 27, 2013 at 10:43 PM (#4377394)
Pretty cool to drive down there in the winter and look out with binocs scoped high-powered rifle and see some guy hanging on to a 100m+ pillar of ice on the wall of a mountain.

*ducks*
   239. Tim D Posted: February 27, 2013 at 10:56 PM (#4377400)
"Not when they're standing still and the hunter is comfortably camouflaged in deer blind."

Never been "comfortable" in a blind. Tolerable, yes.

So you see some deer during your two weeks in your blind. At least 60% are does or too small. Some never stop long enough to get a shot. Others stop but they are behind stuff and you can't get a shot. Then you get a big one with a clear shot. The wind blows the wrong way and he smells something funny. Gone in a flash. A twig cracks. You cough. Gone in a flash. Or, gasp, you miss. My point remains, and many others have said so in the thread, the shot itself isn't the hardest part (although many shots are remarkable), it's getting a shot at a very wary and well-equipped animal that is a challenge.

   240. Steve Treder Posted: February 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4377434)
Mountain lions are occasionally seen in far suburban Arlington, TX.

They aren't all that occasionally seen in not-that-far suburban San Jose, CA. The town in which I work was named Los Gatos for a reason.
   241. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 28, 2013 at 12:16 AM (#4377442)
So you see some deer during your two weeks in your blind.


Holy crap! 2 weeks; is that like non-stop? Is it big enough for a cot or something? Or is it a day thing? It's like those crazy ice fishing dudes that sit in those little houses(that look like outhouses) for long periods trying to catch trout or salmon or something. As I mentioned very early in this post, I've never even fired a gun, so not a hunter. But man, 2 weeks sitting in some little wooden structure when it's cold, that doesn't sound like much fun. I always assumed deer hunting involved tracking the animal(you know like in the movie Deer Hunter...)

#240
I know mountain lions have been protected in California since the 70's or something, but if you are seeing them in San Jose, then there must a programme in place to cull them at certain times? I know the forests between Santa Cruz and San Jose are quite dense so I can see that there'd be quite a few there. I've friends in LA/OC and they get mountain lion encounters also.
I think it's very cool. Count me in the "we need more wolves and mountain lions" camp.
   242. Steve Treder Posted: February 28, 2013 at 12:49 AM (#4377448)
I know mountain lions have been protected in California since the 70's or something, but if you are seeing them in San Jose, then there must a programme in place to cull them at certain times?

Oh good lord no, they aren't nearly that numerous. They remain rarely seen, but at least a few times each year some unlucky jogger or hiker somewhere gets a scary-and-once-in-a-while-deadly encounter. These cats aren't especially large, but they don't f@ck around.

They don't actually encroach upon human habitat, of course; instead what has happened systematically over the decades is that human habitat encroaches upon theirs.

EDIT: The typical deadly encounter scenario is a lone jogger on a remote trail. The running human (especially, sad to say, if the human is small in size, such as a woman and/or adolescent) presents as prey, and the cat pounces from the rear. Usually (though not always) the human can fight off the attack, but the injuries aren't uncommonly fatal.
   243. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 28, 2013 at 01:03 AM (#4377452)
I've spent hundreds of hours outdoors in locations where mountain lions are certainly 'around' (Montana, Wyoming mostly), but I have never seen one with my naked eye. I have been within 25 yards of a grizzly bear in the wild, thankfully inside of a vehicle one time. She was an old, ugly bear feeding on berries near Roosevelt Pass in Yellowstone.

By the way, aside from a grizzly, you do not want to #### around with a moose. The bison are typically quite comfortable being near people, some get stressed (their tails rise when this happens) as long as you keep your distance, but a Moose will charge you if you get too close. Moose hunting stories are often amusing, as if the Moose knows they are being hunted and they have no fear in turning the tables. I've never done it, can't imagine ever wanting to try to bring down a 1000-1500lb animal standing 7 feet tall, and then trying to field dress it.
   244. CrosbyBird Posted: February 28, 2013 at 01:09 AM (#4377456)
Paying others to slaughter miserable factory farmed animals while you turn your noses up at people who take wild game themselves is even uglier.

I would find it equally ugly if a slaughterhouse worker took pleasure in the act of killing the animals.

I really don't think I'm turning my nose up at anyone, though. I'm not claiming that I'm better or more civilized. I just don't understand why a person might take pleasure in the snuffing out of a life; it's an entirely foreign (and aesthetically unpleasant) set of emotions to me.

Then again, I don't really understand most of the violent impulse in human beings in general. I can't imagine being provoked into initiating violence outside of pretty imminent threat to me or someone else.
   245. Morty Causa Posted: February 28, 2013 at 01:17 AM (#4377459)
How are you on others doing it on your behalf--and I don't mean just the slaughterhouse worker?
   246. Morty Causa Posted: February 28, 2013 at 01:22 AM (#4377463)
   247. CrosbyBird Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:25 AM (#4377474)
How are you on others doing it on your behalf--and I don't mean just the slaughterhouse worker?

Fighting to protect me or those I love? I have no problem with that. Responding to non-violent behavior with violence? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with someone acting in such a way on my behalf than I would be doing it myself.

As for killing animals, the very idea makes me uncomfortable enough that I wouldn't do it myself, and if I were not so selfish, I would stop eating meat entirely. I'm not noble enough to make that sacrifice if someone else will do the dirty work, but also not completely able to detach myself from the reality that I'm valuing my pleasure over the lives of other creatures. I suppose that's my particular brand of evil; I honestly believe that it's wrong but I am unwilling to change my behavior.
   248. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 28, 2013 at 08:26 AM (#4377487)
Done and done. Shooty, if you don't get in contact with Traderdave and work in a meetup with us when you're in California getting married and all, we will consider your priorities sadly skewed.

Honestly, I probably won't have time in September when the actual wedding is going to happen, but I'll be in town in a couple of weeks if you want to have this thing early.
   249. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4377501)
By the way, aside from a grizzly, you do not want to #### around with a moose.


When I visit my friend in Valdez AK (every other year or so with the boys) we always go over bear and moose safety tips. My friend has many great bear stories (like when his 10lb dog treed a black bear in his backyard and many more).
   250. Lassus Posted: February 28, 2013 at 09:42 AM (#4377520)
Honestly, I probably won't have time in September when the actual wedding is going to happen

Where in god's name are your priorities?
   251. tfbg9 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4377524)
If we all gave up beef, wouldn't the cattle simply never be bred and raised in the first place?

I am all for "animal husbandry". Break with the jokes...now! But the farm animal ought to have a proper life before it is humanely harvested. How to balance this notion with the one of providing affordable food for working people? I haven't a clue. But these are the two ideas that need to be reasonably balanced, IMHO.
   252. Rants Mulliniks Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:21 AM (#4377527)
I would find it equally ugly if a slaughterhouse worker took pleasure in the act of killing the animals.


Well thanks to all of the Ag Gag laws being proposed and passed, we won't be able to catch anymore of them. Filming animal abuse in CAFOs and slaughterhouses is now considered te**or*st activity in many states (the filming, not the abuse).

As for hitting deer in a car, I've hit three over the years, and only killed one of them as far as I know. It was pretty brutal, it jumped up out of the ditch and I didn't even have time to hit the brakes. It cartwheeled into the opposite ditch, so I stopped, and the guy behind me stopped too. It was suffering and thrashing around, so he held its antlers while I slit its throat with a jackknife. It died almost instantly without bleeding out much, so I probably didn't have to do it. Didn't know that at the time of course. I felt pretty bad about the whole thing.
   253. Rants Mulliniks Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:25 AM (#4377530)
If we all gave up beef, wouldn't the cattle simply never be bred and raised in the first place?


This is true, which is why there are conservation efforts for many traditional livestock breeds that have fallen out of favour because they aren't compatible with modern factory farming that demands high yields, fast growth, uniformity, etc.
   254. SandyRiver Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:26 AM (#4377533)
Not when they're standing still and the hunter is comfortably camouflaged in deer blind.

Where I hunt, the trees - especially younger ones at eye level - are thick enough to act as "blinds", also to limit shooting distance. Decades ago when I was a better hunter, I'd still-hunt, a term for moving extremely slowly thru the woods, like 250 yards in an hour. Slo-mo walking, especially in woods filled with rocks, swamps, and fallen trees, is like constant near-isometrics. My legs can no longer do that for a long time, so I look for a well-located stump or blowdown.

By the way, aside from a grizzly, you do not want to #### around with a moose. The bison are typically quite comfortable being near people, some get stressed (their tails rise when this happens) as long as you keep your distance, but a Moose will charge you if you get too close. Moose hunting stories are often amusing, as if the Moose knows they are being hunted and they have no fear in turning the tables. I've never done it, can't imagine ever wanting to try to bring down a 1000-1500lb animal standing 7 feet tall, and then trying to field dress it.

One issue with moose is similar to that for Yellowstone black bears - at times they seem almost tame, but they're still wild animals, and when 1,000 lb of critter freaks out, you don't want to be near by. One early October (rut season for moose), I had a large bull walk toward me grunting, looking for a lady friend. It was in older wood, trees far apart with no low limbs so no place to hide. After much shouting and stick thrashing on my part (and a scary antler display from him), he realized I was not the cow of his dreams and went elsewhere.

Per your final sentence, the best answer to the question, "Where do you shoot a moose?" (questioner means bullet placement) is "near the road!" Anything more than a few hundred feet in, it's almost easier to bring in some salt pork and a skillet and eat him on the spot. :)
More seriously, that's the chief reason why Maine's moose permits include a sub-permittee, pre-chosen by the applicant at time of applying for the permit drawing, so that permit winners can't auction off the sub-permit. Either person may shoot the critter, and it ensures that there's more than one present to deal with field dressing and loading.
   255. Tippecanoe Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:30 AM (#4377537)
It’s been twenty years now, but one thing I’ve done while backpacking in the central Rockies is to intentionally run out of food so that you spend a full day eating only the trout you can catch and the berries you can find. A young man burns through calories at a rapid rate while clambering about at high elevation, to the extent that the typically slender brookies or cutthroats are really never enough to satisfy you. It makes for a great day, but not a particularly comfortable day, and I found it illuminating to understand the difference.

(Note that I am no Grizzly Adams, I was using good modern gear and was at no time more than a 5-hour hike from a pickup stocked with cheap beer and snack food).
   256. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:39 AM (#4377544)
I am all for "animal husbandry". Break with the jokes...now! But the farm animal ought to have a proper life before it is humanely harvested. How to balance this notion with the one of providing affordable food for working people? I haven't a clue. But these are the two ideas that need to be reasonably balanced, IMHO.


The ridiculousness of this idea is betrayed by the euphemisms that litter the post. A "proper life"? "humanely harvested"? What on earth does "proper life" mean for a cow, and if there was one, how would you know it? Did you ask the cow? This is just animal personification - if I were a cow, how would I want to live? And then "humanely harvested" - this means "killed quickly" right? Or does it?

Animals can clearly feel pain; they can clearly be frightened in the reflexive way that we can if we're surprised by a loud noise. But who knows if animals can "suffer", in the human sense of the word. A stubbed toe hurts like hell, but who gives a ####, because you know its nothing. The tiniest twinge of pain from a bump that you knew is cancer is awful. And if they can suffer, how would you know how to make it stop?

There's no such thing as humane animal husbandry. It's just a ######## way for people who proclaim atheism but then cling to this fervent faith that killing another living thing is "wrong" to enjoy their hamburgers without having to face the meaning. Hamburgers are delicious, and to eat them, you have to cause something to be killed. The blood is on your hands, or reduced with red wine and herbs.
   257. tfbg9 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4377559)
I'm not an atheist. The very real notion of proper animal husbandry is Biblical. We have, IMHO, a moral obligation to balance our need for sustenence with the avoidance of panic and pain to the animals under our stewardhip.

Must you nearly always post in an obnoxious manner?


   258. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 28, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4377633)
Must you nearly always post in an obnoxious manner?


:-) I just want to note that this was not directed at me.
   259. robinred Posted: February 28, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4377663)
how would you know how to make it stop?


One of the basic problems with hard-core factory farming is that in many cases, the animals are hardly ever able to move, until they are killed. So, no matter how much self-satisfied sneering you want to aim at those of us pretending to be cows, I think it is pretty to safe to say that no living thing, from humans on down, responds well to extreme and constant physical confinement. There are other issues with factory farming as well. At the same time, there is, as tfbg9 correctly points out, a need to balance these considerations with real-world economic considerations related to affordable food costs and to keeping people in these industries gainfully employed. But I think we are in many ways on the wrong side of those lines right now.
   260. Ron J2 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4377707)
#259 Just wanted to note that farming robots are starting to be a big deal. The increasing use in the US is at least partially driven by anti-immigration efforts (a BBC story on the matter has one buyer saying that he's never been hassled by the INS about the green card of one of his robots)
   261. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4377718)
The best arguments against meat eating are efficiency IMO. A huge amount of energy (calories) is wasted detouring through the harvested animal rather than eating directly. Of course many things such animals eat are not edible by humans, but the basic principle applies.

I think there is also a case to be made that while killing a free range cow is still killing, it sure seems better to me than killing an animal who is locked in a pen its whole life. I also think there is a hierarchy Mammals > Birds > Fish > Bugs (Lobster, etc...) in terms of how guilty I feel about eating them. But yes I do still eat beef and pork.

Still waiting for my vat grown meat, guilt free and more efficient. But even then I am sure there will be free range animals raised for harvest, and wild animals harvested, but at least the vile factory farms can be put out to pasture (so to speak).

   262. Morty Causa Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4377728)
So, no matter how much self-satisfied sneering you want to aim at those of us pretending to be cows, I think it is pretty to safe to say that no living thing, from humans on down, responds well to extreme and constant physical confinement.


The thing is, though, we essentially have created those animals (like the dog and the kitty). They could not exist in the wild. They exist for our use and benefit. If we decide we don't need them, or won't use them, they will cease to be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider how we treat them--but how we treat has to do with how we view ourselves, not with the idea that they have some sort of right to it. Not taking this entire concept to the degree necessary into consideration is what makes some people's view of biology simply Disney-like. Anthropomorphizing that which doesn't at all fit the bill is not only absurd, but its effects can have dire consequences.
   263. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4377729)
I think it is pretty to safe to say that no living thing, from humans on down, responds well to extreme and constant physical confinement.


Not sure if I agree, and it all depends what "responds well" means. You're personifying.
   264. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:46 PM (#4377749)
I think there is also a case to be made that while killing a free range cow is still killing, it sure seems better to me than killing an animal who is locked in a pen its whole life.


"I believe killing living things is wrong. However, I also like steak. In fact, I like steak just enough to justify killing a living thing who was happy, but not enough to justify killing a living thing who miserable."
   265. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 03:16 PM (#4377770)
"I believe killing living things is wrong. However, I also like steak. In fact, I like steak just enough to justify killing a living thing who was happy, but not enough to justify killing a living thing who miserable."


Welcome to the real world. Yes killing is not ideal, but we are omnivores by nature, and my main thrust (had you bothered to read what I wrote) was regarding the caloric efficiency of the arrangement. Still, even accepting your argument then yes, there are shades of grey. Steak good. Killing cows bad. Factory farming worse than free range.

Adults judge these things and decide the correct balance, children scream Black! White! There is nothing else!
   266. zack Posted: February 28, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4377774)
The thing is, though, we essentially have created those animals (like the dog and the kitty). They could not exist in the wild.

Pfft, cats aren't domesticated. Have you ever looked one in the eyes? The only reason they don't eat you is size and laziness.
   267. Rants Mulliniks Posted: February 28, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4377779)
I also think there is a hierarchy Mammals > Birds > Fish > Bugs (Lobster, etc...) in terms of how guilty I feel about eating them.


Octopi sort of throw that theory out the window. I can't find the source now, but they have been granted the same rights given to higher animals in at least one jurisdiction. They are highly intelligent and feel pain.

I like steak just enough to justify killing a living thing who was happy, but not enough to justify killing a living thing who miserable."


This is exacty how I see it, which is why I don't buy any factory-farmed meat. You seem to think that is a radical position. I don't think cows or pigs or chicken ponder the future or dread the day they might get killed.
   268. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 28, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4377783)
Not sure if I agree, and it all depends what "responds well" means. You're personifying.

Only if you consider suffering a uniquely human trait. Obviously, we can't know for certain what an animal is thinking or feeling (nor can you absolutely know what any other person is thinking or feeling for that matter), but it's not unreasonable to form a conclusion about its potential suffering/happiness from its visible actions. Take the David Foster Wallace approach, no you don't know to an absolute surety that the animal is suffering, but it's doing all the things you would expect something suffering to do.
They could not exist in the wild. They exist for our use and benefit. If we decide we don't need them, or won't use them, they will cease to be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider how we treat them--but how we treat has to do with how we view ourselves, not with the idea that they have some sort of right to it.

This is stupid. If you believe in rights at all, they don't depend on the ability to exist in the wild (which many of the animals we eat can do just fine) or who created you. Under your conception of rights, the only thing wrong with parents killing their child is that it might damage their self image.
   269. The Good Face Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:00 PM (#4377798)
Pfft, cats aren't domesticated. Have you ever looked one in the eyes? The only reason they don't eat you is size and laziness.


Fun (and true) jokes aside, cats would do just fine in a world where humans disappeared. Some of the more... specialized breeds would almost certainly die off (my fluffy Persian wouldn't do so hot in the wild), but plenty of cats would relish the chance to kill and eat their own food (my wife's brutish alley cat rescue).

Factory farming worse than free range.


This is what's known as an identity statement. It's a content-free bromide meant to sort people by perceived gradients of cognitive and moral authority. Why is factory farming worse? We know that animals can suffer pain and stress, but factory farms spend a great deal to minimize such things because stressed animals lose them money. We can't know that those animals are more or less happy than so-called "free range" animals. And if we assume factory farm animals are miserable, which we can't without anthropomorphizing them, then isn't it better to kill and eat miserable animals instead of the happy, frolicking ones? Or is the issue another manifestation of neo-puritanism? Factory farming allows everybody, even poor people, to eat as much meat as they like. Should enjoying meat only be the province of rich people who can afford the premium prices for non-factory farmed meat?

Adults judge such things and determine the correct balance. Children make assumptions that soothe their prejudices.
   270. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4377804)
Welcome to the real world. Yes killing is not ideal, but we are omnivores by nature, and my main thrust (had you bothered to read what I wrote) was regarding the caloric efficiency of the arrangement. Still, even accepting your argument then yes, there are shades of grey. Steak good. Killing cows bad. Factory farming worse than free range.

Adults judge these things and decide the correct balance, children scream Black! White! There is nothing else!



Oh, I get the gray. But the gray here requires a remarkable coincidence - that the moral cost of killing a living thing is precisely balanced with the value of the pleasure gained by eating steak (or bacon), and in fact, is in such perfect equipoise that the meat at my local Stop and Shop is not OK but over at Whole Foods, that meat is fine. That seems convenient. Further, it requires enormous assumptions about how animals think and feel and invariably leads to anthropomorphizing.

Last, and most importantly, how do you determine what the "value" of killing a living thing is? If you make a fish suffer a lot, is that like making a chimp suffer a little? Where's the line for what can suffer or not suffer? Is the harm only in the suffering - i.e., why not eat Swiftian babies if you could guarantee that their death would be instant and painless and unforseen?

How have you determined how much the animals suffer? Have you ever killed an animal, or watched one be killed (and I don't mean in some documentary). If you think making an animal suffer is unacceptable, you're comfortable taking some farmer's word for it that this steak, it was killed humanely, so dig in and don't feel a thing? Whole Foods basically sells meat-eating indulgences, slapping the label "humane" on something so that people like you can take it home and enjoy the crispy tange of a charred steak crust without any of the angst or serious introspection regarding meat-eating.

Pleasure is never necessity, and meat eating is pleasure. Raising animals for meat is a terribly inefficient use of agricultural land (and the increased use of such land to raise meat is raising corn and grain prices all over the world and causing harm to things who can suffer - people). It has a far-larger global warming footprint compared to vegetarianism. There is, to put it simply, no redeeming quality about the consumption of meat other than that it is completely delicious, and one of the few pure pleasures in life along with sex and alcohol.

But if you are at all concerned that animals suffer, or can experience pain in a human way (i.e., with some element of understanding/awareness), then I don't see how you can even take the risk that you are causing suffering to justify your pleasure. Its not that close to a balance, and I think people who talk themselves into that are just rationalizing their inability to exert enough self-control to be a vegetarian.
   271. Lassus Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4377805)
The thing is, though, we essentially have created those animals (like the dog and the kitty). They could not exist in the wild

You understand nature about as well as you understand humanity.
   272. tfbg9 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4377815)
Yeah! I mean, who the hell ever heard of feral house cats or wild dogs?
   273. Rants Mulliniks Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4377817)
but factory farms spend a great deal to minimize such things because stressed animals lose them money.


Hahaha! There is a reason states are being pressured by the Cargills, IBPs and Tysons to pas Ag Gag laws.
   274. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4377821)
Hahaha! There is a reason states are being pressured by the Cargills, IBPs and Tysons to pas Ag Gag laws.


Its a conspiracy!
   275. Ricky Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4377822)
Children make assumptions that soothe their prejudices.


like

factory farms spend a great deal to minimize such things because stressed animals lose them money


which may possibly the most untrue statement in the history of the internet.

Why do you think ag-gag bills are all the rage if life on the factory farm is so peachy. Gestation crates? Immediate separation from offspring? Force feeding? Veal creates? Hormone injenctions to spur unnaturally rapid growth? The list goes on. Do you by chance not live on this planet?
   276. Greg K Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4377823)
Hahaha! There is a reason states are being pressured by the Cargills, IBPs and Tysons to pas Ag Gag laws.

I'm assuming this term was coined on Bob Loblaw's Law Blog?
   277. tfbg9 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4377826)
Do you by chance not live on this planet?


It is my understanding that the guy lives in Manhattan. So no, not really.
   278. Greg K Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4377827)
Its a conspiracy!

I'm not sure "industry lobbies government for industry-friendly laws" is a conspiracy per se (or particularly surprising).
   279. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4377831)
Immediate separation from offspring?


Lets take this. What is your evidence that separation from offspring makes animals (either the cow or calf) suffer. If so, when is the line? For example, some states have laws forbidding the sale of puppies until 8 weeks. So at 6 weeks, that causes mommy and pup to suffer, but at 10 weeks, its cool, welcome home rover?
   280. Greg K Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4377835)
Lets take this. What is your evidence that separation from offspring makes animals (either the cow or calf) suffer. If so, when is the line? For example, some states have laws forbidding the sale of puppies until 8 weeks. So at 6 weeks, that causes mommy and pup to suffer, but at 10 weeks, its cool, welcome home rover?

Not directly responding to this, but my first experience with a bear was when a mother and three cubs sauntered through my camp. Luckily I had a car to jump into. I'm not sure if the bear would have suffered if I had gotten between her an her child, but I was guessing that I might.
   281. Rants Mulliniks Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4377836)
Its a conspiracy!


Damn right it is, you ignorant SOB. It goes hand in hand with the armed raids being conducted at raw milk cheese factories. In your world, its only reasonable that filming animal abuse in a CAFO is terrorism (which is what the laws state). They want to kill us for our freedoms!!!! #### me.

Thanks Ricky - you other folks (like the irredeemable Zop) with your heads in the sand about stuff like this really need to open your GD eyes. TTYL.
   282. Rants Mulliniks Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4377838)
For example, some states have laws forbidding the sale of puppies until 8 weeks. So at 6 weeks, that causes mommy and pup to suffer, but at 10 weeks, its cool, welcome home rover?


Google weaning you tool.
   283. tfbg9 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4377840)
Kittens too soon seperated from their mother will fail to learn the hunting skills necessary to survive if they become seperated from
their human owners, IIRC.
   284. tfbg9 Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4377843)
Am I mistaken, or wouldn't Making it on Your Own in the Real World by 'Zop be an awfully thin book?
   285. The Good Face Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4377853)
Why do you think ag-gag bills are all the rage if life on the factory farm is so peachy. Gestation crates? Immediate separation from offspring? Force feeding? Veal creates? Hormone injenctions to spur unnaturally rapid growth? The list goes on. Do you by chance not live on this planet?


Even the kindest, gentlest abbatoir in the world is still an abbatoir and it's still going to be horrifying to a coddled population that believes meat springs into existence wrapped in plastic from the forehead of Zeus. Ag gag bills are a rational response to the bunny hugger's and neo-puritan activists who enjoy stroking their sense of moral superiority at the expense of those businesses.

Also, to echo 'zop's #279, what are you basing any of your complaints on other than anthropomorphization?
   286. robinred Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4377857)
Not sure if I agree, and it all depends what "responds well" means. You're personifying.\


Well, I think you're objectifying. A pig or a cow is not a person, but is not a rock, either.
   287. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4377863)
This is what's known as an identity statement.


No, it is an opinion. I am not pretending my hierarchy is fact or anything.
   288. Publius Publicola Posted: February 28, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4377867)
Lets take this. What is your evidence that separation from offspring makes animals (either the cow or calf) suffer.


I dated someone a few years ago who owned a sizable amount of land and she allowed farmers in her area to graze her fields with their cows in return that they do all the work of managing them. When a calf was taken away from a cow, the poor animal would groan for days, mooing mournfully in the vain hope that the calf would return. It was brutal listening to it, to the point I would cover my ears.

Now I suppose you might rationalize that the cow groaning meant nothing. But, if you ever heard it and you're not a emotionless sociopath...
   289. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:03 PM (#4377872)
But if you are at all concerned that animals suffer, or can experience pain in a human way (i.e., with some element of understanding/awareness), then I don't see how you can even take the risk that you are causing suffering to justify your pleasure. Its not that close to a balance, and I think people who talk themselves into that are just rationalizing their inability to exert enough self-control to be a vegetarian.


What?

I eat factory farmed meat. I have never pretended I don't. I think vegitarians have the moral high ground. Where did I suggest otherwise. I still feel better about eating free range food as oppossed to factory farmed (and I don't eat veal).

Yes animals (to one degree or another) feel pain. They suffer. However it is natural for predators to eat things. Circle of life and all that. And yes I like meat. I don't eat much red meat, ebcause it is not as good for you and I would rather minimize my consumption of mammals. And so I do.

I also don't rag on hunters who kill and eat bambi. Deer overpopulation is a real problem (though I am on board the more wolves and other apex predators bandwagon) and hunting is one of the things that carnivores and omnivores do.

There is little or no self justification or will power invovled here. I ate a burger just last night and it was good, but I would have rather ate a vat grown burger as oppossed to having a cow killed. Vat grown better than free range better than factory farm - in my opinion - but I still do eat factory farmed beef (and other things), because there is not much chice without a huge hassle or going vegitarian.

And I have gone vegitarian for weeks at a time (back when I was poor). It was not that bad, but I do like meat.

I am confused why this is so complicated for some folks.
   290. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4377879)
Lets take this. What is your evidence that separation from offspring makes animals (either the cow or calf) suffer.


I love the studies that come out every so often with the "surprising" finding that animals use basic reasoning, often have a sense of fair play, and so on. Anyone who has had a pet or close relationship with an animal knows they do. And no they are not people and there is some qualitative difference in mentation and sapience, but not nearly to the level many arrogantly assume. It is mostly quantitative differences not qualitative.

My dog does a great job of paying attention to the few things he really cares about. He can tell time, recognize patterns, and so on. Obviously I can (and do) juggle much more and have a much higher level of mentally functioning, but pretending he has no sentience at all, no feelings, and so on is silly - just as silly as pretending animals are dumb people in furry suits.
   291. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4377887)
Also, to echo 'zop's #279, what are you basing any of your complaints on other than anthropomorphization?

Believing that animals are unhappy when they are separated from their young is anthropomorphization? Do you believe in evolution? Have you ever been around an animal that has just given birth?
   292. Ricky Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4377898)
Also, to echo 'zop's #279, what are you basing any of your complaints on other than anthropomorphization?


I don't think either of you understand what anthropomorphize means. Or are you suggesting that pain and stress are somehow uniquely human personality traits?
   293. zenbitz Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4377902)
Kittens too soon seperated from their mother will fail to learn the hunting skills necessary to survive if they become seperated from
their human owners, IIRC.


How soon is that? Oh, or are you saying that the human "mother" teaches them instead? I have had some awfully young kittens and they seemed to hunt ok (for sport obviously, since I fed them kitty cruchies)
   294. Publius Publicola Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4377904)
Or are you suggesting that pain and stress are somehow uniquely human personality traits?


As far as I can tell, if you add in emotionally suffering, that's exactly what they're saying.

Here's an incredible video of ravens mourning the death of a family member (ravens live in extended family groups):

Australian ravens mourning member's death (amazing footage)

WARNING: for the squemish, it's difficult to watch.
   295. zenbitz Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4377908)
@290 And there are ants who have tournaments. So, possibly you are inferring abstract thought from behavior when there is likely none.
   296. The Good Face Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:40 PM (#4377920)
Or are you suggesting that pain and stress are somehow uniquely human personality traits?


Nope, I've already stated that animals are subject to both; my objection is to people who project their qualia onto animals.
   297. Publius Publicola Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4377927)
Except that sometimes it's appropriate to do that. Mammals are all closely related, you know.
   298. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:50 PM (#4377933)
As far as I can tell, if you add in emotionally suffering, that's exactly what they're saying.



Its that animals feel pain and stress, but NOT suffering. That awareness of the self, and mortality, is essentially a precondition for suffering.
   299. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4377937)
Its that animals feel pain and stress, but NOT suffering. That awareness of the self, and mortality, is essentially a precondition for suffering.


There is some real heavy parsing going on here to get where you have decided you want to go. I don't think there is a binary state - can suffer, YES or NO. It is almost certainly a continuum. Your assumption that things not human can't suffer is really really great at justifying doing pretty much anything to the "not human" population, but doesn't seem rooted in anythign other than wishcasting on your part.
   300. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4377942)
For some reason I can't edit, but the dictionary really disagrees with your definition of suffering by the way. Where are you getting your definition? Is this some philisophical construct or what?
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