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Monday, February 25, 2013
Ted Nugent is a friend of mine
His killings have no purpose
No reason, or rhyme
Ted Nugent is a friend of mine
He is one of the most interesting managers in baseball. When you think about the fact that Kirk Gibson holds an aviation record, he’s constantly looking for new ways to inspire his team.
Gibson is an avid outdoorsman and hunter.
Repoz
Posted: February 25, 2013 at 03:49 PM | 396 comment(s)
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As to the raven video posted up thread, the reason that video is heart-wrenching - to us - is that we are human and we see our own death and the death of our family members in that video; the exact sort of thing an animal cannot do.
How do you know? Are you a raven? How else would you describe the peculiar behavior in that video?
If an animal has no sense of self, then why do they protect their young, to the point of suicide? If they have no sense of self, then they cannot sense what's theirs either.
Your suppositions make no sense.
This is what I don't get. Questioning whether we are projecting our "humaness" on to animals is a valid exercise. Questioning almost always is. And I'm sure there is plenty of research on the topic. I haven't read it, but I'm sure it's out there.
But making definitive claims how animals experience life with zero evidence to support the claim...I don't get.
You may not be able to read any of these without a subscription, but:
SCIENCE!
Here is a snip from another paper, NJ Emery, and NS Clayton are the authors of many of these:
Crows can also recognize humans. For example when another person, from a different campsite would walk by they would continue to go about their business stealing our food. However, when my buddy and I walked by they signaled the alarm and scattered.
Like Dogs, Crows have a long evolution alongside humans and have adapted some pretty "smart" ways of dealing with us.
Cracked - 6 Terrifying Ways Crows Are Smarter Than You Think.
I'm not always so sure. We fund our kitten under a bush across the road at less than 4 weeks old, I doubt she was trained much to do anything. Nevertheless, she's been a parade of death for any critters who happen into the yard.
Psssh. Reagan. I await my invitation to the secret league of murderous crows.
Crows and other Corvids have always had a mystical element to them (especially recognized by your average Seattle Carlos Castaneda fan, as I found out when I bought one of his books with a Raven on the cover), and modern science is confirming what our ancestors knew -- they are some damn smart birds that have evolved to live and thrive around humans.
Actually, Crows might be smarter than Papelbon.
Somewhere in my storage space I have a yellowed clipping I cut from the Seattle PI when I was living up there almost 20 years ago. It was about a local power outage that had been caused by a crow that had pecked a power line until it broke through the protective coating, instantaneously frying it and a neighborhood's power. What made me clip and save it was that the reporter interviewed someone from the DWP, who related that for some reason, crows just liked to peck power lines and that crows zapping themselves was a fairly frequent occurrence.
I got clipped on the side of the head once by a crow when I walked to close to a chick that had fledged and was on the ground. It flew in from behind so I didn't see it coming. I felt like I'd been whacked with a hammer. And it drew blood.
Finally came the day when they decided it was time to let it fly free, to rejoin the natural wild world. They take the baby bird out into the front yard. They hold it up, and let it go. Fly free, baby bird, fly free!
The baby bird kind of flutters and stutters, but then it finds its bearings and starts to fly up into the sky. Fly free, baby bird, fly free!
Right then a crow swooped down and nabbed the baby bird, in flight. Crunch. End of the line for this baby bird.
Lessons rarely get much more profound.
We have magpies here in Aus. and they are very agressive during mating season. They will dive bomb runners, walkers and cyclists at will. In areas where they are prominent you just have to make a wide berth of them because it's not a case of maybe, but how many times they will dive bomb you.
Moral of the story: teach the baby bird to use an AK before releasing.
That reminds me a little of the titular episode in the novel The Painted Bird, by Jersy Kosinski.
Clearly you don't salute them enough down in Oz.
Crows can also be taught to talk. Not as good as parrots of course, but better than you'd expect.
but as a farmer, a real farmer not a hobby farmer, not a dabbler, not someone who just lived 5 miles out of town and as someone who hunted regularly from age 4 if folks want input of someone who knows what the h8ll he is talking about versus suppostion and conjecture i am willing to engage.
and as a primer for folks not aware i have killed just about everything that has walked or crawled at some point and i was using that phrase way before the movie unforgiven.
He suggests that "what people do about their ecology depends on what they think about themselves in relation to things in their environment." He argued that Judeo-Christian theology was fundamentally exploitative of the natural world because:
The Bible asserts man's dominion over nature and establishes a trend of anthropocentrism.
Christianity makes a distinction between man (formed in God's image) and the rest of creation, which has no "soul" or "reason" and is thus inferior.
He posited that these beliefs have led to an indifference towards nature which continues to impact in an industrial, "post-Christian" world. He concludes that applying more science and technology to the problem won't help, that it is humanity's fundamental ideas about nature that must change; we must abandon "superior, contemptuous" attitudes that make us "willing to use it [the earth] for our slightest whim." White suggests adopting St. Francis of Assisi as a model in imagining a "democracy" of creation in which all creatures are respected and man's rule over creation is delimited.
This touches on what Zop is saying above. What he says is another way of saying since animals have no soul, we can do what we want with them.
Parrots have been shown to be incredibly intelligent as well.
i have killed just about everything that has walked or crawled at some point
I've walked and crawled. Come get me chump!
my hands shake too d8mn much which is why is stopped hunting. but i wager i could still take you out with my one good hand. (the other doesn't close properly any more despite all the exercises)
I grew up on a hobby farm (we put in as much as 10,000 bales of hay in a summer (round bale equivalent), had as many as 50 head of cattle at a time, 50 chickens, pigs, riding and work horses, and a goat) and I worked for four years for an industrial chicken hatchery operation that pumped out a million chicks week, and two summers on a small family dairy farm that milked 24 Guernseys and still did a lot of work with horses (Percherons). I've run the gamut, but its never been by 24/7 life. I'm trying to transition into organic market gardening, and the day my wife relents I'll be getting some chickens and pigs.
Gotta catch me first. I'm not proud, I will run away like the wind. All my French ancestry is in my feet!
Harv, such a thought experiment here. Why do you think that, as a farmer who hunts because its part of his livelihood, that somehow establishes you as an authority on the morality of sporthunting? It strikes me similarly as when a lawyer thinks he has a superior sense of justice to the average person because he knows the law.
They have a cream for that you know.
not claiming any authority on morality. just willing to speak to the operational aspects of farming (both individual or factory farming), the mindset of the farmer, the mindset of the hunter, the technical aspects of hunting or things which are factual
your post is why i typically avoided by me since folks are all wired to brand other posters without even a real discussion to know what the h8ll someone is thinking
yeah, threads like this typically stink
White's interp of Genesis is idiotic, btw, as is any reading of it the excuses the rape of the natural world.
I think you're ascribing a view to him that is in fact opposite of white he's saying. I don't know how you can interpret "dominion over animals" any other way.
But, AFAICT, nobody here, even Ray, is objecting to farmers using rifles for game management. The issue isn't the mechanics of firearms and hunting. The issue is sport hunting, going out in the woods to kill something because it's a fun thing to do. I would think farmers like you, living close to the land as you do, might object to that.
i started out as a dairy farmer but then discovered i was allergic to cows (true story) so i switched to raising hogs along with cash crops. i also raised a few heads of beef every few years to make my own steak, i kept a small herd of sheep to keep the grass down around the buildings, always have horses because i love horses and riding, and mixed in other domesticated livestock for various purposes. i also have a bunch of dogs, primarly beagles.
the hogs are all gone now. the sheep, horses, hounds and a few heads of beef remain (need to re-stock the freezer with beef)
just to share hogs are way smarter than most other livestock. it's hogs (gap) horses (gap) cows (big gap) sheep. if you ask about other animals i can give you my two cents.
EDIT: I like that one because I don't think I've ever seen a human lust after an animal quite like Stephen Fry and that horse.
well excuse me for interrupting as i was unable to make the connection to that and sport hunting amongst all the crow banter.
if someone is going to eat the meat i don't have much issue other than to mock some desk jockey who spends 10k to dress up for a week, huff and puff and with a guide all but aiming the gun kills an animal who has contributed way more to the world than the doofus who killed it.
but if the sole purpose is to mount something then by all means arm the animals and let them fire back.
i have always had faith in nature's ability to manage itself. when man steps over the line nature will work to balance things. always has, always will.
Yeah, sheep are pretty dumb. A lot of them won't even defend themselves.
the ewes will protect the lambs (in their limited way)
the bucks will mix it up if the flock is threatened
Not as aggressive as those ############# black swans, though. I hate those ########.
So you're OK with my hunting for the freezer, which is my primary purpose. But you're not OK with the fact that I also enjoy it, which I do. Eating meat is OK as long as I dislike it?
Yes, Genesis states that God has given humans dominion over the earth, but the Christian - or anyone else - who uses that statement as freedom to rape and pillage the environment is (from the biblical point of view) an affront to the God Who owns it, Who created it. (And from the Bible standpoint, that "it" includes us.) Pointing to Christians who operate under the "dominion excuse" in abusing the natural world dosn't change what the Bible says about doing so, but only points out our (this is the broadest sense of "our") sin nature.
here's a family story you may find amusing.
so during the summer i would always have the sows pastured so that they would give birth in hutches and be able to roam around in pasture. one of the tasks i put on one of the boys was to check the hutches for new litters while the sows were getting their daily ration of corn which was stationed away from the hutches. so one time one of the boys cannot get a full count because of how the pigs are all piled on top of eveyrone and he knows that i want an accurate count. so he goes in the hutch and gently moves the piglets around so he can count them accurately. as he is finishing he hears a grunt and when he turns around there's mom looking at him through the hutch door.
i give him credit for quick thinking because he picks up a little pig and as he moves it around of course mom is tracking the little pig. he gently tosses the little guy to one side and when mom goes over to check him out my guy makes a break for it. momma sow gets wise and noow she's ticked and she chooses to chase.
meanwhile, i am in the back of a pickup shovelling off the last of the feed corn when i hear some commotion and i see a chubby nine year old arms flying making for the fence where he hoists himself up and over while mom pulls up huffing and woofing. my guy lays on the ground panting while momma sow snorts in disgust
i fell over laughing in the pickup.
of course i did get an earful from the mrs about what might have happened
Hmmm.
I foresee a busy weekend.
yes. as mentioned in 348 hogs are a good match in some respects physically and mentally they are crafty. as one example i used electric fence as the barrier. with hogs every morning, and i do mean every morning, one of them would check to make sure the fence was active. and they would rotate volunteers. but they would always check. other animals you could have a fence be inactive for months before somehow they would find out. not hogs. they were always looking for the weak spot. and they will endure some degree of pain to get past a barrier. so if the fence is up too high or down if the hog can scoot past with just a quick owie the hog will do it.
i appreciated that about hogs. kept me on my toes
good story
but I'd have forgotten to mention it to my mrs.....
my wife right now would be behind my shoulder waving her hands as warning to you.
so, you have been put on notice
the boy had to share 'his near death experience' and of course mom had to know where i was in this situation.
all the kids have all their fingers and all their toes. i think i did my job as safety monitor
This sounds like me, my brother, my father, my late grandfather, my uncles, my cousins, and any other male on that side of my family.
Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett passage I quite like, regarding the use of shepherds as metaphors in religion:
No, that is not what I'm saying. There's nothing religious about it - and of course, once you mention the word "soul", you get Genesis quotes down thread and its all over.
I'm arguing that there is a difference in kind, not in degree, between human cognition and animal cognigition, since that humans have a sense of self and animals do not. This isn't some sort of radical, self-formed view - its a view popularized by, among others, Ian Tattersal (who argues not just that this ability is unique to humans, but a relatively recent development in hominid evolution).
And to plug more British shows, I just saw the first episode of "Black Mirror", which modestly bills itself as a Twilight Zone for the Twitter age. The first one involves a royal family kidnapping with the ransom demand that the Prime Minister have sex with a pig on live television. I won't spoil the ending but I can say it is tastefully done. Also features a few Downton Abbey vets, plus Maester Luwin!
Hw - I don't fully get why you're as defensive in these threads (not that I need to). Anyway, I'd love to hear your stories / insight.
Sandy - this distinction may not make sense to you, but... there's a difference from delighting in the hunt and delighting in causing the death of an animal. If that seems stupid or like semantics, I get that - but that's the idea here.
What character in the movie was based on your life? I have my suspicions... #harveysold
It's just not working for this thread. No idea why -- seems fine on the others I've had cause to use it on.
"Things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl." -- H.P. Lovecraft, "The Festival"
i don't think i understand the post
i do know i work proactively to cut off asinine responses and some interpret that as me being defensive or passive-aggressive or some such
but having been around bbtf i know most of the stupid ways posters like to play ah ha or gotcha and i don't like being branded a liar however oblique the reference
In any case, lots (most?) of us are uninterested in playing gotcha. If you've something to say, please do. (I) consider this an opportunity for education.
Edit: I can edit, gef.
He was quite the taskmaster. When I worked their in the early 90's, they were one of the few dairy farms left in the region that hadn't upgraded to a pipeline milking system, so the milking machine was attached to the udder and suspended by a belt around the cow's abdomen, with a detachable stainless steel bucket clamped onto the milking machine. His grandsons used to carry the milk buckets to the tank to dump them. One evening the 11-year old was complaining that his arm hurt, but the grandfather told him shut up and stop complaining, so he finished the milking. They found out later that night that he actually was doing this with a broken arm.
Edit: I can edit too.
Edit:
Huh. Won't edit with Google Chrome or IE, will with Firefox (which I haven't been using here at work because I can't make the goddamned Snap.Do, or whatever it's called, default go away, & at home it keeps crashing), but again no such inconsistency on other threads. Odd.
guilty as charged. i did that with a son with a broken wrist and another one who had busted his elbow.
hey, i worked an entire winter with a broken ankle so it's not like it was focused externally. the helping hand had pulled out the walk ramp too quick after loading the hogs in the trailer and i landed awkwardly on the ground. hurt like a sob and after finishing unloading at the market i went home for lunch and sort of fell into the chair at the dinner table. the wife insisted i see a doc. it was a clean break and he put on a cast. it got in the way of work so i cut it off the next day, wrapped up my ankle in a big stretch bandage and cinched my boot tight. it hurt like a mother888888888 for a few months but i managed. my ankle looks all wonky now but i had a business to run
i love that story. he's one tough hombre
nope. just drank a lot of gin to get to sleep. and i slept in the chair in the living room versus going upstairs
being a functional alcholic sometimes has its advantages
We have medical marijuana out here, it's a better pain killer & there's no hangover in the morning.
you drink enough over time the hangover ceases to happen. but then i am pretty much mean and cantankerous naturally so maybe i was hung over and nobody could tell the difference. ha, ha.
yes, my wife was very glad when i retired from active farming. i quit smoking and my drinking cut back to recreational versus hard-core
my wife is an extraordinary woman.
so, like i said upthread, there's jerks that hunt, there's jerks that don't hunt. if you're not a jerk, i got no beef with you. i don't think you're a jerk.
(i also have no beef with farming. i'm probably more pro-factory/large scale farm than most here.)
edit: this was edited with chrome, just to spite gef.
i have read on the internet that supposedly, and i do mean supposedly, it's a 'thing' now to try and run down an animal like a deer to emulate primitive hunters. that hard core runners engage in this activity.
i find something like this repugnant on multiple levels but have not confirmed whether it is actually happening or it's internet bs
i do know that if i can ascertain that it's real i am going to work to raise awareness. because i think hunters and animal lovers would be united that this sick, twisted behavior
I am hereby spited.
Spitten?
Spote?
Edit: And actually, I'm editing this on Chrome as well. Either something changed, or I'm an idiot.
Not that those two concepts are at all mutually exclusive.
Haven't heard of this, I don't think. If it's happening, a few hardcore runners need shovels or similarly blunt, hard instruments upside the head.
agreed.
i belong to any farmer organizations. i drop a dime or two and farmers will be on the lookout for these wingnuts and take their own shot claiming the runner is a trespasser.
this is sick, twisted stuff
I can believe a few idiots out there have tried it, hell, people pierce their genitals so any idiocy can occur in small numbers, but I just don't think this is a trend to worry about.
(my edit isn't working)
You mean endurance hunting, where you essentially chase an animal on foot for hours until it becomes exhausted, whereupon you kill it with a knife?
I think it's much, much crueler to the animal than shooting it with a rifle, but I also think that only a tiny number of Americans have the physical and mental capacity to do such a thing. Especially with white tail deer; their habitat isn't really conducive to human style running. It's one thing to run a marathon on paved roads; it's something very different to chase a deer up and down a mountainside through thick forest.
I've never met anyone or met anybody who has met anyone who's tried this. I'm betting it's mostly internet BS with a sprinking of hard core nutjobs who'll actually do it.
I know a lot of hardcore runners, and am often accused of being one myself. (Whether or not I am, I would leave in the eye of the beholder.)
Never heard of this.
i find something like this repugnant on multiple levels but have not confirmed whether it is actually happening or it's internet bs
I read an article describing that way back in the 1970s. I think it was in Sports Illustrated.
Put me in the camp that thinks it's more urban legend than actual practice.
again, i hope so. i came across an active conversation on a chat forum where this was being discussed and one of the participants was kvethching about having to kill the deer if successful. i suggested to make things easier for all involved he kill himself instead
he did not think it was funny and when i posted i was not trying to be funny he was more upset
It's also insanely stupid, as the meat would be inedible.
That too. It's fine if you're a paleolithic tribesman living on the plains, where your alternative is to go hungry or gnaw on a root, but here the alternative is better tasting meat and less animal cruelty. If you wanna test your heroic endurance, go do a triathlon.
Well, there was Randall Hill (WR for Miami Hurricanes in late 80s-1990) who famously told Pat Haden that he dreams of running with cheetahs and getting pulled over by the police for speeding (on foot presumably). Perhaps he's running after deer in his post-playing days.
I think it would be cooler if Hill were being run down by cheetahs. And after catching him, they batted him around like a cat does with a mouse.
Professional athletes are the most humonguously egocentric people on earth.
That depends on whether or not you classify politicians as people.
I always wonder what my grandpa could have done in the majors, since he could reliably bring down a rabbit with a thrown rock.
But as some have said, that meat would be pretty GD tough. Not as tough as Harvey though. I'm surprised that ankle hasn't given you a lot of problems. My wife fractured both her tibia and fibula at the ankle, and the stupid GP only noticed one of the breaks on the x-ray. They caught it a week later on a follow-up x-ray and immediately did surgery to put in a plate with 6 screws on one side and a 3" pin on the other side. They lasted about 18 months before the screws started coming out, so they removed all the hardware. Her ankle has been ###### since.
Kram & Dawson (in an article in Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, 1998) note that as red kangaroos hop faster, their oxygen consumption doesn't go up. They can go as fast as 40 MPH, but at that rate they will eventually overheat, and they can probably also damage their tendons if they bounce along too fast, but they are in that one respect different from all other ground animals: they can go faster and faster at no metabolic "cost." They prefer to go into a kind of auto-glide where they just hop and hop for very long distances at about 15 MPH, exerting very little effort (their gait is so efficient).
I don't know why I find that so interesting, but it suggests that there isn't a lot to be gained by trying to run down a kangaroo :)
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