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Monday, February 25, 2013

Kirk Gibson on off-season hunting and the great outdoors

Ted Nugent is a friend of mine
His killings have no purpose
No reason, or rhyme
Ted Nugent is a friend of mine

He is one of the most interesting managers in baseball.  When you think about the fact that Kirk Gibson holds an aviation record, he’s constantly looking for new ways to inspire his team.

Gibson is an avid outdoorsman and hunter.

Repoz Posted: February 25, 2013 at 04:49 PM | 396 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   301. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 28, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4377943)
Flip
   302. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 28, 2013 at 07:25 PM (#4377996)
How do you define suffering, BM; more specifically, how do you define pain differently from suffering. They are not synonyms.

As to the raven video posted up thread, the reason that video is heart-wrenching - to us - is that we are human and we see our own death and the death of our family members in that video; the exact sort of thing an animal cannot do.
   303. Publius Publicola Posted: February 28, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4378000)
the exact sort of thing an animal cannot do.


How do you know? Are you a raven? How else would you describe the peculiar behavior in that video?

If an animal has no sense of self, then why do they protect their young, to the point of suicide? If they have no sense of self, then they cannot sense what's theirs either.

Your suppositions make no sense.
   304. Greg K Posted: February 28, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4378014)
Your suppositions make no sense.

This is what I don't get. Questioning whether we are projecting our "humaness" on to animals is a valid exercise. Questioning almost always is. And I'm sure there is plenty of research on the topic. I haven't read it, but I'm sure it's out there.

But making definitive claims how animals experience life with zero evidence to support the claim...I don't get.
   305. zenbitz Posted: February 28, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4378021)
Corvid birds (Ravens, crows, jays) have shown some of the highest (non primate) reasoning capacities. For example it has been demonstrated that a Raven can count to 19 or so, and that a Jay will only create fake food caches if he himself has learned to rob other Jays' caches.

You may not be able to read any of these without a subscription, but:


SCIENCE!

Here is a snip from another paper, NJ Emery, and NS Clayton are the authors of many of these:


Food-caching is a risky strategy, however, because the caches can be stolen by other birds. In addition to hiding their own food caches, corvids also play the role of thief: they watch and remember where other birds have hidden their caches and use this information to steal those caches when the owner has left the scene. When playing the role of thief, speed is of the essence and may make the difference between a successful raid and vicious attack by the owner of the food-cache. Not surprisingly, corvids also employ a number of counter strategies to reduce the risk that their own caches will be stolen by another bird. For example, they attempt to cache out of sight from potential thieves, or wait until the raider is distracted before hiding their caches, and if that is not possible, they hide caches in places that are difficult for the thief to see. When there is little option but to cache when others are around, then the birds will return to the caches once the others have left, and quickly re-hide any remaining caches in new places unbeknown to the potential raider.

Laboratory experiments have established that western scrub-jays use all these techniques to protect their caches from potential thieves, and only do so if another bird is present at the time of caching. Furthermore, they only move their caches to new hiding places if they have been thieves themselves in the past. Na??ve jays, even ones who have watched other birds caching but have never had the opportunity to raid those caches, do not do so. This suggests that experienced birds relate information about their previous experience of being a thief to the possibility of future theft by another bird, and adjust their caching behaviour accordingly. Using your own experience to predict another individual's future behaviour in relation to your own – ‘putting yourself in someone else's shoes' – is thought to be one of the hallmarks of Theory of Mind, another ability that was thought to be uniquely human.
   306. madvillain Posted: February 28, 2013 at 09:39 PM (#4378064)
Crows are ridiculously talented at stealing food from humans. Out at Shi Shi beach on the Olympic Peninsula for example the crows would only cluster around our campsite after they had confirmed we were walking far enough away to be "out of sight and out of mind". When me and my buddy went down to the water about 100 feet away they stayed back in the trees, but as soon as they saw us some 200 or so feet away at a rock cluster down the beach they quickly scoured our campsite for food, even managed to completely eat a roll of salami that was wrapped in foil.

Crows can also recognize humans. For example when another person, from a different campsite would walk by they would continue to go about their business stealing our food. However, when my buddy and I walked by they signaled the alarm and scattered.

Like Dogs, Crows have a long evolution alongside humans and have adapted some pretty "smart" ways of dealing with us.
   307. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: February 28, 2013 at 09:50 PM (#4378069)
Gotta love crows ...


Next time you see a group of crows, look closely. Try to remember which one is which, and see if you can tell the difference between them the next time you pass. Odds are good that you can't; they're crows, which makes them all big black birds. On the other hand, every last one of them very likely remembers you as the weird human who kept staring at them. We know this, because researchers in Seattle performed an experiment with some crows around their college campus. They captured seven of the birds, tagged them, then let them go. And they did it all while wearing creepy skin masks, because it was funny:

OK, so the scientists weren't just playing out horror movie fantasies -- they were testing whether the crows could recognize human faces or not. It turns out they can. To a frightening degree: Whenever the scientists walked around campus with the masks on, the crows would "scold" and dive-bomb them... because along with the ability to recognize us as individuals, the researchers also learned that crows can hold a grudge. And pretty soon, it wasn't just the first seven crows reacting. Other birds, ones that hadn't even been captured in the first place, started dive-bombing the scientists as well.

In case you think they were just telling each other "get the guy with the mask," they weren't: The test was repeated with multiple people wearing multiple masks, and without fail, the crows left the masked men who hadn't messed with them alone, but went murder-crazy on the mask that had been worn while messing with them. Quick, in Point Break, which Presidential mask did Swayze wear? No idea? Don't worry, we're pretty sure Johnny Utah didn't know half the time, either. But the crows would have.


Cracked - 6 Terrifying Ways Crows Are Smarter Than You Think.
   308. Lassus Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:14 PM (#4378081)
Kittens too soon seperated from their mother will fail to learn the hunting skills necessary to survive if they become seperated from their human owners, IIRC.

I'm not always so sure. We fund our kitten under a bush across the road at less than 4 weeks old, I doubt she was trained much to do anything. Nevertheless, she's been a parade of death for any critters who happen into the yard.
   309. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:25 PM (#4378085)
Quick, in Point Break, which Presidential mask did Swayze wear? No idea? Don't worry, we're pretty sure Johnny Utah didn't know half the time, either. But the crows would have.

Psssh. Reagan. I await my invitation to the secret league of murderous crows.
   310. flournoy Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:34 PM (#4378086)
If you've never been dive-bombed by crows, I do not recommend it. It's terrifying. Out for a run, I cut across a field where crows were nesting in nearby trees. Maybe it was during mating season, or while they had eggs or babies in the nest - I don't know. But they didn't like me there one bit. I avoid that field during August and September now.
   311. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:45 PM (#4378092)
We once had a nasty bunch of crows terrorizing everyone/thing in our wooded suburban neighborhood, they'd hide out in high pines, and on high power lines. It was a nuisance. My Dad actually asked the neighbors permission if he could take them out (w a gun, he was a sharpshooter), they didn't object. Down they came.
   312. madvillain Posted: February 28, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4378093)
Gotta love crows ...


Crows and other Corvids have always had a mystical element to them (especially recognized by your average Seattle Carlos Castaneda fan, as I found out when I bought one of his books with a Raven on the cover), and modern science is confirming what our ancestors knew -- they are some damn smart birds that have evolved to live and thrive around humans.

Actually, Crows might be smarter than Papelbon.
   313. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: February 28, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4378100)
and on high power lines.


Somewhere in my storage space I have a yellowed clipping I cut from the Seattle PI when I was living up there almost 20 years ago. It was about a local power outage that had been caused by a crow that had pecked a power line until it broke through the protective coating, instantaneously frying it and a neighborhood's power. What made me clip and save it was that the reporter interviewed someone from the DWP, who related that for some reason, crows just liked to peck power lines and that crows zapping themselves was a fairly frequent occurrence.
   314. Publius Publicola Posted: February 28, 2013 at 11:19 PM (#4378102)
If you've never been dive-bombed by crows, I do not recommend it. It's terrifying.


I got clipped on the side of the head once by a crow when I walked to close to a chick that had fledged and was on the ground. It flew in from behind so I didn't see it coming. I felt like I'd been whacked with a hammer. And it drew blood.
   315. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 28, 2013 at 11:58 PM (#4378116)
My Mom had one of those wooden bird decoration thingies, that would hang from old outdoor clotheslines and just flap a little in the wind. Anyways, it was visible out the kitchen window and one late afternoon a Hawk came down on it and abused the #### out of it, one of the best real life punkings of an animal I've ever seen.
   316. Steve Treder Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:12 AM (#4378119)
Years ago, our next-door neighbor little kids rescued an abandoned baby bird. They nurtured it to health, feeding it with medicine droppers, the whole bit. The baby bird prospered and grew.

Finally came the day when they decided it was time to let it fly free, to rejoin the natural wild world. They take the baby bird out into the front yard. They hold it up, and let it go. Fly free, baby bird, fly free!

The baby bird kind of flutters and stutters, but then it finds its bearings and starts to fly up into the sky. Fly free, baby bird, fly free!

Right then a crow swooped down and nabbed the baby bird, in flight. Crunch. End of the line for this baby bird.

Lessons rarely get much more profound.
   317. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4378135)
If you've never been dive-bombed by crows, I do not recommend it. It's terrifying.


We have magpies here in Aus. and they are very agressive during mating season. They will dive bomb runners, walkers and cyclists at will. In areas where they are prominent you just have to make a wide berth of them because it's not a case of maybe, but how many times they will dive bomb you.
   318. Publius Publicola Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:00 AM (#4378136)
Or immediate, I suppose.

Moral of the story: teach the baby bird to use an AK before releasing.

That reminds me a little of the titular episode in the novel The Painted Bird, by Jersy Kosinski.
   319. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 01, 2013 at 08:35 AM (#4378173)
We have magpies here in Aus. and they are very agressive during mating season. They will dive bomb runners, walkers and cyclists at will. In areas where they are prominent you just have to make a wide berth of them because it's not a case of maybe, but how many times they will dive bomb you.

Clearly you don't salute them enough down in Oz.
   320. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 08:55 AM (#4378176)
I was sh!tbombed by seagulls once, I paddled too close to a nest they had on a rock outcrop in the middle of a lake. I also had some hairs stolen from my head by some kind of songbird when I was 5 or so, it just swooped down and yanked out a mouthful on its way by.

Crows can also be taught to talk. Not as good as parrots of course, but better than you'd expect.
   321. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4378181)
i have avoided this thread because historically bbtf threads on farming and animals is so ridiculously full of 'wrong' there is not enough energy in the day to address all the wrongness

but as a farmer, a real farmer not a hobby farmer, not a dabbler, not someone who just lived 5 miles out of town and as someone who hunted regularly from age 4 if folks want input of someone who knows what the h8ll he is talking about versus suppostion and conjecture i am willing to engage.

and as a primer for folks not aware i have killed just about everything that has walked or crawled at some point and i was using that phrase way before the movie unforgiven.
   322. Publius Publicola Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:15 AM (#4378183)
Getting back to the ethos of sporthunting, has anyone heard of the "Lynn White hypothesis"? He claims that our ecological crisis is rooted in the bible, specifically the mandate god gives us for dominion of the earth and all living things. Here, from wiki:

He suggests that "what people do about their ecology depends on what they think about themselves in relation to things in their environment." He argued that Judeo-Christian theology was fundamentally exploitative of the natural world because:

The Bible asserts man's dominion over nature and establishes a trend of anthropocentrism.
Christianity makes a distinction between man (formed in God's image) and the rest of creation, which has no "soul" or "reason" and is thus inferior.

He posited that these beliefs have led to an indifference towards nature which continues to impact in an industrial, "post-Christian" world. He concludes that applying more science and technology to the problem won't help, that it is humanity's fundamental ideas about nature that must change; we must abandon "superior, contemptuous" attitudes that make us "willing to use it [the earth] for our slightest whim." White suggests adopting St. Francis of Assisi as a model in imagining a "democracy" of creation in which all creatures are respected and man's rule over creation is delimited.


This touches on what Zop is saying above. What he says is another way of saying since animals have no soul, we can do what we want with them.
   323. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:32 AM (#4378195)
I saw this doc on birds once and there was a segment on a flock of birds in Minnesota that head learned to fly in front of the laser triggering the automatic doors at a Home Depot so they could nest inside but get in and out when they wanted. The cold makes birds smart!

Parrots have been shown to be incredibly intelligent as well.

i have killed just about everything that has walked or crawled at some point

I've walked and crawled. Come get me chump!
   324. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:41 AM (#4378202)
shooty

my hands shake too d8mn much which is why is stopped hunting. but i wager i could still take you out with my one good hand. (the other doesn't close properly any more despite all the exercises)

   325. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:42 AM (#4378203)
Harvey - what kind of farm did (do) you have?

I grew up on a hobby farm (we put in as much as 10,000 bales of hay in a summer (round bale equivalent), had as many as 50 head of cattle at a time, 50 chickens, pigs, riding and work horses, and a goat) and I worked for four years for an industrial chicken hatchery operation that pumped out a million chicks week, and two summers on a small family dairy farm that milked 24 Guernseys and still did a lot of work with horses (Percherons). I've run the gamut, but its never been by 24/7 life. I'm trying to transition into organic market gardening, and the day my wife relents I'll be getting some chickens and pigs.
   326. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:44 AM (#4378204)
my hands shake too d8mn much which is why is stopped hunting. but i wager i could still take you out with my one good hand. (the other doesn't close properly any more despite all the exercises)

Gotta catch me first. I'm not proud, I will run away like the wind. All my French ancestry is in my feet!
   327. Publius Publicola Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:46 AM (#4378205)
but as a farmer, a real farmer not a hobby farmer, not a dabbler, not someone who just lived 5 miles out of town and as someone who hunted regularly from age 4 if folks want input of someone who knows what the h8ll he is talking about versus suppostion (sic) and conjecture i am willing to engage.


Harv, such a thought experiment here. Why do you think that, as a farmer who hunts because its part of his livelihood, that somehow establishes you as an authority on the morality of sporthunting? It strikes me similarly as when a lawyer thinks he has a superior sense of justice to the average person because he knows the law.
   328. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4378206)
All my French ancestry is in my feet!

They have a cream for that you know.
   329. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:50 AM (#4378207)
publius

not claiming any authority on morality. just willing to speak to the operational aspects of farming (both individual or factory farming), the mindset of the farmer, the mindset of the hunter, the technical aspects of hunting or things which are factual

your post is why i typically avoided by me since folks are all wired to brand other posters without even a real discussion to know what the h8ll someone is thinking

yeah, threads like this typically stink

   330. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:57 AM (#4378212)
Harv, I'd still like to know what kind of farm you had, I'm not looking for a gotcha moment, I just want to know. Old farmers typically know more about life, economics (on a personal scale), weather, and general know-how than just about anybody.
   331. tfbg9 Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:06 AM (#4378214)
@322: IIRC Aquinas argued that animals indeed have souls, sensitive souls, as compared to our senitent souls.

White's interp of Genesis is idiotic, btw, as is any reading of it the excuses the rape of the natural world.
   332. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4378221)
White's interp of Genesis is idiotic, btw, as is any reading of it the excuses the rape of the natural world.


I think you're ascribing a view to him that is in fact opposite of white he's saying. I don't know how you can interpret "dominion over animals" any other way.
   333. Publius Publicola Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:17 AM (#4378223)
not claiming any authority on morality. just willing to speak to the operational aspects of farming (both individual or factory farming), the mindset of the farmer, the mindset of the hunter, the technical aspects of hunting or things which are factual


But, AFAICT, nobody here, even Ray, is objecting to farmers using rifles for game management. The issue isn't the mechanics of firearms and hunting. The issue is sport hunting, going out in the woods to kill something because it's a fun thing to do. I would think farmers like you, living close to the land as you do, might object to that.
   334. Greg K Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4378224)
Speaking of treating animals as existed purely for our pleasure always bring to mind QI and the Giant Tortoise for me.
   335. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:23 AM (#4378228)
cold

i started out as a dairy farmer but then discovered i was allergic to cows (true story) so i switched to raising hogs along with cash crops. i also raised a few heads of beef every few years to make my own steak, i kept a small herd of sheep to keep the grass down around the buildings, always have horses because i love horses and riding, and mixed in other domesticated livestock for various purposes. i also have a bunch of dogs, primarly beagles.

the hogs are all gone now. the sheep, horses, hounds and a few heads of beef remain (need to re-stock the freezer with beef)

just to share hogs are way smarter than most other livestock. it's hogs (gap) horses (gap) cows (big gap) sheep. if you ask about other animals i can give you my two cents.
   336. Greg K Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4378230)
Or the really inventive way of killing horses to catch eels.

EDIT: I like that one because I don't think I've ever seen a human lust after an animal quite like Stephen Fry and that horse.
   337. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4378232)
post 333

well excuse me for interrupting as i was unable to make the connection to that and sport hunting amongst all the crow banter.

if someone is going to eat the meat i don't have much issue other than to mock some desk jockey who spends 10k to dress up for a week, huff and puff and with a guide all but aiming the gun kills an animal who has contributed way more to the world than the doofus who killed it.

but if the sole purpose is to mount something then by all means arm the animals and let them fire back.

i have always had faith in nature's ability to manage itself. when man steps over the line nature will work to balance things. always has, always will.
   338. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:36 AM (#4378235)
it's hogs (gap) horses (gap) cows (big gap) sheep


Yeah, sheep are pretty dumb. A lot of them won't even defend themselves.
   339. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4378238)
cold

the ewes will protect the lambs (in their limited way)

the bucks will mix it up if the flock is threatened
   340. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4378239)
We have magpies here in Aus. and they are very agressive during mating season.


Not as aggressive as those ############# black swans, though. I hate those ########.
   341. Traderdave Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:45 AM (#4378240)
Hunting wild pigs has taught me they are indeed very, very smart animals. Shockingly fast, too.
   342. Traderdave Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:51 AM (#4378245)
The issue isn't the mechanics of firearms and hunting. The issue is sport hunting, going out in the woods to kill something because it's a fun thing to do. I would think farmers like you, living close to the land as you do, might object to that.


So you're OK with my hunting for the freezer, which is my primary purpose. But you're not OK with the fact that I also enjoy it, which I do. Eating meat is OK as long as I dislike it?
   343. SandyRiver Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4378246)
Psalm 24 begins, "The earth is the LORD's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein."
Yes, Genesis states that God has given humans dominion over the earth, but the Christian - or anyone else - who uses that statement as freedom to rape and pillage the environment is (from the biblical point of view) an affront to the God Who owns it, Who created it. (And from the Bible standpoint, that "it" includes us.) Pointing to Christians who operate under the "dominion excuse" in abusing the natural world dosn't change what the Bible says about doing so, but only points out our (this is the broadest sense of "our") sin nature.
   344. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4378248)
trader

here's a family story you may find amusing.

so during the summer i would always have the sows pastured so that they would give birth in hutches and be able to roam around in pasture. one of the tasks i put on one of the boys was to check the hutches for new litters while the sows were getting their daily ration of corn which was stationed away from the hutches. so one time one of the boys cannot get a full count because of how the pigs are all piled on top of eveyrone and he knows that i want an accurate count. so he goes in the hutch and gently moves the piglets around so he can count them accurately. as he is finishing he hears a grunt and when he turns around there's mom looking at him through the hutch door.

i give him credit for quick thinking because he picks up a little pig and as he moves it around of course mom is tracking the little pig. he gently tosses the little guy to one side and when mom goes over to check him out my guy makes a break for it. momma sow gets wise and noow she's ticked and she chooses to chase.

meanwhile, i am in the back of a pickup shovelling off the last of the feed corn when i hear some commotion and i see a chubby nine year old arms flying making for the fence where he hoists himself up and over while mom pulls up huffing and woofing. my guy lays on the ground panting while momma sow snorts in disgust

i fell over laughing in the pickup.

of course i did get an earful from the mrs about what might have happened
   345. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4378249)
What he says is another way of saying since animals Yankees fans, lawyers & Republicans have no soul, we can do what we want with them.


Hmmm.

I foresee a busy weekend.
   346. tfbg9 Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4378251)
Pigs are more "equal" (to us)?
   347. tfbg9 Posted: March 01, 2013 at 10:58 AM (#4378254)
343 nails it.
   348. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 11:00 AM (#4378255)
Pigs provide lots of transplant tissue for humans. My grandfather had a pig's heart valve transplanted.
   349. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 11:04 AM (#4378261)
tbg9

yes. as mentioned in 348 hogs are a good match in some respects physically and mentally they are crafty. as one example i used electric fence as the barrier. with hogs every morning, and i do mean every morning, one of them would check to make sure the fence was active. and they would rotate volunteers. but they would always check. other animals you could have a fence be inactive for months before somehow they would find out. not hogs. they were always looking for the weak spot. and they will endure some degree of pain to get past a barrier. so if the fence is up too high or down if the hog can scoot past with just a quick owie the hog will do it.

i appreciated that about hogs. kept me on my toes
   350. Traderdave Posted: March 01, 2013 at 11:04 AM (#4378262)
344

good story

but I'd have forgotten to mention it to my mrs.....
   351. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4378263)
as fair warning being both old and a farmer i have lots of stories and love telling them so be careful about asking because you will likely get 10 sentences when you were looking for one

my wife right now would be behind my shoulder waving her hands as warning to you.

so, you have been put on notice
   352. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 11:07 AM (#4378265)
trader

the boy had to share 'his near death experience' and of course mom had to know where i was in this situation.

all the kids have all their fingers and all their toes. i think i did my job as safety monitor
   353. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4378275)
you will likely get 10 sentences when you were looking for one


This sounds like me, my brother, my father, my late grandfather, my uncles, my cousins, and any other male on that side of my family.
   354. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4378304)
it's hogs (gap) horses (gap) cows (big gap) sheep

Yeah, sheep are pretty dumb. A lot of them won't even defend themselves.


Reminds me of a Terry Pratchett passage I quite like, regarding the use of shepherds as metaphors in religion:

The merest accident of microgeography had meant that the first man to hear the voice of Om, and who gave Om his view of humans, was a shepherd and not a goatherd. They have quite different ways of looking at the world, and the whole of history might have been different. For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led.

- Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
   355. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4378306)
This touches on what Zop is saying above. What he says is another way of saying since animals have no soul, we can do what we want with them.


No, that is not what I'm saying. There's nothing religious about it - and of course, once you mention the word "soul", you get Genesis quotes down thread and its all over.

I'm arguing that there is a difference in kind, not in degree, between human cognition and animal cognigition, since that humans have a sense of self and animals do not. This isn't some sort of radical, self-formed view - its a view popularized by, among others, Ian Tattersal (who argues not just that this ability is unique to humans, but a relatively recent development in hominid evolution).
   356. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:18 PM (#4378318)
what happened to the edit function. hard to fix typos without it.
   357. Greg K Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4378322)
My one personal experience with a pig was when I was a kid, and for some reason (I forget) in a pen wth one. I got a good snout-whack on my leg and I've had a healthy respect for the beasts ever since.

And to plug more British shows, I just saw the first episode of "Black Mirror", which modestly bills itself as a Twilight Zone for the Twitter age. The first one involves a royal family kidnapping with the ransom demand that the Prime Minister have sex with a pig on live television. I won't spoil the ending but I can say it is tastefully done. Also features a few Downton Abbey vets, plus Maester Luwin!
   358. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: March 01, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4378339)
346 - well, more equal than others

Hw - I don't fully get why you're as defensive in these threads (not that I need to). Anyway, I'd love to hear your stories / insight.

Sandy - this distinction may not make sense to you, but... there's a difference from delighting in the hunt and delighting in causing the death of an animal. If that seems stupid or like semantics, I get that - but that's the idea here.
   359. zenbitz Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4378349)
i was using that phrase way before the movie unforgiven


What character in the movie was based on your life? I have my suspicions... #harveysold
   360. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4378357)
what happened to the edit function. hard to fix typos without it.


It's just not working for this thread. No idea why -- seems fine on the others I've had cause to use it on.
   361. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4378360)
I've walked and crawled. Come get me chump!


"Things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl." -- H.P. Lovecraft, "The Festival"
   362. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4378361)
Hw - I don't fully get why you're as defensive in these threads (not that I need to).

i don't think i understand the post

i do know i work proactively to cut off asinine responses and some interpret that as me being defensive or passive-aggressive or some such

but having been around bbtf i know most of the stupid ways posters like to play ah ha or gotcha and i don't like being branded a liar however oblique the reference

   363. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4378389)
Fair enough.
In any case, lots (most?) of us are uninterested in playing gotcha. If you've something to say, please do. (I) consider this an opportunity for education.

Edit: I can edit, gef.
   364. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4378394)
That's really odd. I've had occasion at least a half-dozen times in this thread to try editing something, but trying it just takes me to the top of the page.
   365. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4378396)
Tried it again just now. Same thing.
   366. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 01, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4378402)
The old farmer I worked for had a view of animals similar to zop's. He always had a team of horses, and worked them at least 3-4 times a week. Because he wanted to get the most work out of them, he always fed them the best hay, and gave them frequent rest periods on the hot days. But he also didn't hesitate to come down across their back with a 4' long stick of hornbeam if they did something he didn't like. He generally cared for them, but certainly didn't feel any kind of bond with them.

He was quite the taskmaster. When I worked their in the early 90's, they were one of the few dairy farms left in the region that hadn't upgraded to a pipeline milking system, so the milking machine was attached to the udder and suspended by a belt around the cow's abdomen, with a detachable stainless steel bucket clamped onto the milking machine. His grandsons used to carry the milk buckets to the tank to dump them. One evening the 11-year old was complaining that his arm hurt, but the grandfather told him shut up and stop complaining, so he finished the milking. They found out later that night that he actually was doing this with a broken arm.


Edit: I can edit too.
   367. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4378420)
Rub it in, guys. Rub it in.

Edit:

Huh. Won't edit with Google Chrome or IE, will with Firefox (which I haven't been using here at work because I can't make the goddamned Snap.Do, or whatever it's called, default go away, & at home it keeps crashing), but again no such inconsistency on other threads. Odd.
   368. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4378464)
One evening the 11-year old was complaining that his arm hurt, but the grandfather told him shut up and stop complaining, so he finished the milking. They found out later that night that he actually was doing this with a broken arm.

guilty as charged. i did that with a son with a broken wrist and another one who had busted his elbow.

hey, i worked an entire winter with a broken ankle so it's not like it was focused externally. the helping hand had pulled out the walk ramp too quick after loading the hogs in the trailer and i landed awkwardly on the ground. hurt like a sob and after finishing unloading at the market i went home for lunch and sort of fell into the chair at the dinner table. the wife insisted i see a doc. it was a clean break and he put on a cast. it got in the way of work so i cut it off the next day, wrapped up my ankle in a big stretch bandage and cinched my boot tight. it hurt like a mother888888888 for a few months but i managed. my ankle looks all wonky now but i had a business to run

   369. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4378470)
HW, did you, at any point, rub dirt on it?
   370. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4378471)
as a follow up it was apparently that story that my one nephew used as a motivator when he was invited to some uber training as part of being in an elite border patrol group and on the second day he busted his ankle and instead of accepting being dismissed did as he had heard from me and wrapped up his ankle tight every morning and gutted it through the morning runs, etc. when the 3 week training ended instead of immediately heading home he showed up at the local emergency room with his duffles. they had to re-break the andkle to set it properly

i love that story. he's one tough hombre
   371. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4378472)
gef

nope. just drank a lot of gin to get to sleep. and i slept in the chair in the living room versus going upstairs

being a functional alcholic sometimes has its advantages
   372. Traderdave Posted: March 01, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4378477)
being a functional alcholic sometimes has its advantages


We have medical marijuana out here, it's a better pain killer & there's no hangover in the morning.
   373. SandyRiver Posted: March 01, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4378481)
Der K (#358): Makes perfect sense, because I feel the same way - love the hunt, listening to the woods get quiet, seeing all the things I'm either too lazy or too impatient to wait for outside of deer season. However, if I shoot a deer (or anything else, but partridge just don't elicit the same degree of response), my thankfulness and satisfaction (not joy) are mixed with regret/sadness.
   374. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4378491)
trader

you drink enough over time the hangover ceases to happen. but then i am pretty much mean and cantankerous naturally so maybe i was hung over and nobody could tell the difference. ha, ha.

yes, my wife was very glad when i retired from active farming. i quit smoking and my drinking cut back to recreational versus hard-core

my wife is an extraordinary woman.
   375. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4378495)
sandy/373: for a lot of the "anti-hunting" crowd here, that's our whole point - we get that meat is murder, we agree that it is or at least can be more noble to be hunted down than are many other ways for them to die or us to raise and slaughter animals, we're just put off by when the thrill of the hunt crosses into something like sadism. (i also get differing responses depending on the animal, i'd feel a lot worse if hit a deer with my car than when a bug hits my windshield - everything's relative)
so, like i said upthread, there's jerks that hunt, there's jerks that don't hunt. if you're not a jerk, i got no beef with you. i don't think you're a jerk.

(i also have no beef with farming. i'm probably more pro-factory/large scale farm than most here.)

edit: this was edited with chrome, just to spite gef.
   376. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4378499)
what do folks think of this running down an animal nonsense?

i have read on the internet that supposedly, and i do mean supposedly, it's a 'thing' now to try and run down an animal like a deer to emulate primitive hunters. that hard core runners engage in this activity.

i find something like this repugnant on multiple levels but have not confirmed whether it is actually happening or it's internet bs

i do know that if i can ascertain that it's real i am going to work to raise awareness. because i think hunters and animal lovers would be united that this sick, twisted behavior
   377. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4378500)
edit: this was edited with chrome, just to spite gef.


I am hereby spited.

Spitten?

Spote?

Edit: And actually, I'm editing this on Chrome as well. Either something changed, or I'm an idiot.

Not that those two concepts are at all mutually exclusive.
   378. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4378509)
i have read on the internet that supposedly, and i do mean supposedly, it's a 'thing' now to try and run down an animal like a deer to emulate primitive hunters. that hard core runners engage in this activity.


Haven't heard of this, I don't think. If it's happening, a few hardcore runners need shovels or similarly blunt, hard instruments upside the head.
   379. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4378514)
gef

agreed.

i belong to any farmer organizations. i drop a dime or two and farmers will be on the lookout for these wingnuts and take their own shot claiming the runner is a trespasser.

this is sick, twisted stuff

   380. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4378515)
Double post.
   381. Traderdave Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4378516)
If that is happening, they're getting some antlers upside the head. But Usain Bolt jimself probably would have a shot very often, if at all.

I can believe a few idiots out there have tried it, hell, people pierce their genitals so any idiocy can occur in small numbers, but I just don't think this is a trend to worry about.
   382. Traderdave Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4378517)
Bolt *wouldn't* have a shot


(my edit isn't working)
   383. The Good Face Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4378520)
what do folks think of this running down an animal nonsense?

i have read on the internet that supposedly, and i do mean supposedly, it's a 'thing' now to try and run down an animal like a deer to emulate primitive hunters. that hard core runners engage in this activity.

i find something like this repugnant on multiple levels but have not confirmed whether it is actually happening or it's internet bs

i do know that if i can ascertain that it's real i am going to work to raise awareness. because i think hunters and animal lovers would be united that this sick, twisted behavior


You mean endurance hunting, where you essentially chase an animal on foot for hours until it becomes exhausted, whereupon you kill it with a knife?

I think it's much, much crueler to the animal than shooting it with a rifle, but I also think that only a tiny number of Americans have the physical and mental capacity to do such a thing. Especially with white tail deer; their habitat isn't really conducive to human style running. It's one thing to run a marathon on paved roads; it's something very different to chase a deer up and down a mountainside through thick forest.

I've never met anyone or met anybody who has met anyone who's tried this. I'm betting it's mostly internet BS with a sprinking of hard core nutjobs who'll actually do it.
   384. zenbitz Posted: March 01, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4378527)
I believe the current theory is that humans evolved to both walk upright and be hairless for exactly this type of hunting. That don't make it 'right', though.

   385. flournoy Posted: March 01, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4378565)
what do folks think of this running down an animal nonsense?

i have read on the internet that supposedly, and i do mean supposedly, it's a 'thing' now to try and run down an animal like a deer to emulate primitive hunters. that hard core runners engage in this activity.

i find something like this repugnant on multiple levels but have not confirmed whether it is actually happening or it's internet bs


I know a lot of hardcore runners, and am often accused of being one myself. (Whether or not I am, I would leave in the eye of the beholder.)

Never heard of this.
   386. Steve Treder Posted: March 01, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4378571)
i have read on the internet that supposedly, and i do mean supposedly, it's a 'thing' now to try and run down an animal like a deer to emulate primitive hunters. that hard core runners engage in this activity.

i find something like this repugnant on multiple levels but have not confirmed whether it is actually happening or it's internet bs


I read an article describing that way back in the 1970s. I think it was in Sports Illustrated.

Put me in the camp that thinks it's more urban legend than actual practice.
   387. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: March 01, 2013 at 05:25 PM (#4378577)
all

again, i hope so. i came across an active conversation on a chat forum where this was being discussed and one of the participants was kvethching about having to kill the deer if successful. i suggested to make things easier for all involved he kill himself instead

he did not think it was funny and when i posted i was not trying to be funny he was more upset
   388. flournoy Posted: March 01, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4378596)
I'm sure there are a few people who do it. But if so, it is a behavior I would ascribe to "a few lunatics," rather than "hard core runners."
   389. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 01, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4378597)
I think it's much, much crueler to the animal than shooting it with a rifle,


It's also insanely stupid, as the meat would be inedible.
   390. The Good Face Posted: March 01, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4378606)
I think it's much, much crueler to the animal than shooting it with a rifle,


It's also insanely stupid, as the meat would be inedible.


That too. It's fine if you're a paleolithic tribesman living on the plains, where your alternative is to go hungry or gnaw on a root, but here the alternative is better tasting meat and less animal cruelty. If you wanna test your heroic endurance, go do a triathlon.
   391. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 01, 2013 at 06:11 PM (#4378620)
read an article describing that way back in the 1970s. I think it was in Sports Illustrated.

Put me in the camp that thinks it's more urban legend than actual practice


Well, there was Randall Hill (WR for Miami Hurricanes in late 80s-1990) who famously told Pat Haden that he dreams of running with cheetahs and getting pulled over by the police for speeding (on foot presumably). Perhaps he's running after deer in his post-playing days.
   392. Publius Publicola Posted: March 01, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4378670)
Well, there was Randall Hill (WR for Miami Hurricanes in late 80s-1990) who famously told Pat Haden that he dreams of running with cheetahs and getting pulled over by the police for speeding (on foot presumably). Perhaps he's running after deer in his post-playing days.


I think it would be cooler if Hill were being run down by cheetahs. And after catching him, they batted him around like a cat does with a mouse.

Professional athletes are the most humonguously egocentric people on earth.
   393. flournoy Posted: March 01, 2013 at 09:27 PM (#4378707)
Professional athletes are the most humonguously egocentric people on earth.


That depends on whether or not you classify politicians as people.
   394. rb's team is hopeful for the new year! Posted: March 02, 2013 at 10:06 AM (#4379105)
There was an article a few years ago about some guys athletes out of one area in FLA who grew up chasing rabbits down. I don't remember the source, but some good football players came out of that region.

I always wonder what my grandpa could have done in the majors, since he could reliably bring down a rabbit with a thrown rock.
   395. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 04, 2013 at 08:52 AM (#4380029)
Sorry to resurrect this, but I just had to comment on the running down animals thing. I read or saw something once that claimed (and it makes sense) that humans are the only mammal that won't overheat, assuming outside temps aren't too high and they stay hydrated. An elite human long distance runner can supposedly outrun any other mammal, given a long enough race, because the animal will eventually overheat.

But as some have said, that meat would be pretty GD tough. Not as tough as Harvey though. I'm surprised that ankle hasn't given you a lot of problems. My wife fractured both her tibia and fibula at the ankle, and the stupid GP only noticed one of the breaks on the x-ray. They caught it a week later on a follow-up x-ray and immediately did surgery to put in a plate with 6 screws on one side and a 3" pin on the other side. They lasted about 18 months before the screws started coming out, so they removed all the hardware. Her ankle has been ###### since.
   396. BDC Posted: March 04, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4380041)
An elite human long distance runner can supposedly outrun any other mammal, given a long enough race, because the animal will eventually overheat

Kram & Dawson (in an article in Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, 1998) note that as red kangaroos hop faster, their oxygen consumption doesn't go up. They can go as fast as 40 MPH, but at that rate they will eventually overheat, and they can probably also damage their tendons if they bounce along too fast, but they are in that one respect different from all other ground animals: they can go faster and faster at no metabolic "cost." They prefer to go into a kind of auto-glide where they just hop and hop for very long distances at about 15 MPH, exerting very little effort (their gait is so efficient).

I don't know why I find that so interesting, but it suggests that there isn't a lot to be gained by trying to run down a kangaroo :)
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