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Thursday, August 16, 2012

Kirk Gibson wants harsher substance penalties

Bring out the gimp.

In the wake of the positive test for performance enhancing substances by San Francisco outfielder Melky Cabrera, Gibson said “much stricter” penalties are needed.

“Part of me says that all right, enough already, we’ve made a commitment to stopping that type of activity and we still have people trying to fool the system. Maybe we should consider a much stricter penalty,” Gibson said in a media session recorded by FOX Sports Arizona’s Todd Walsh prior to Wednesday night’s game in St. Louis.

“The majority of the people in this game care about the integrity of the game. We’re all committed to that, cleaning it up. And obviously it’s not enough of a deterrent. It continues.”

...“I think the penalty needs to be much more severe,” Gibson said. “Since I’ve been here we’ve been stung by it ... I mean the guy (Cabrera) is hitting .460 on us this year. In nine games, the guys scored eight runs, six RBIs, two home runs. He’s had a huge impact against us. You go back to 2008, the Manny thing, huge impact.”

Gibson made reference to the punishments against Penn State in the Jerry Sandusky scandal, noting that the NCAA’s sanctions impacted the team in addition to the individual. He seemed to indicate major league teams can benefit from an unlevel playing field without compensatory punishment. In Cabrera’s case, he remained a major contributor for the Giants during the appeal of his positive test.

“My guess is there’s an appeals process. So all those games he’s played during the appeals process, they’re really not fair,” Gibson said. “Look at all the teams he’s played that have been impacted by it. That’s the part I don’t like about it.

“If you appeal it and it’s denied, it should have much more ramifications. I don’t have the answer, but I think in the broad sense it needs to be much much more severe.”

Repoz Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:37 AM | 51 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: diamondbacks, giants, gimp, steroids

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   1. shoewizard Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:07 AM (#4209445)
So what happens if D Back player got popped for PED's ? Who would be credited with the win in the head to head matchups between the D Backs and the Giants ? Would they both get losses ? Can the Rockies still make the playoffs after all ?

   2. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: August 16, 2012 at 03:14 AM (#4209453)
If I'm to believe the propaganda from MLB, steroids cause a body to break down.... much like Gibson's did throughout his career.

But Gibson, being an All-American for a big time college football program in the 70's, probably never heard of them until Canseco started writing books.
   3. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 16, 2012 at 07:41 AM (#4209467)
Isn't the minimum penalty in track and field a two-year ban? And don't they still have people trying to fool the system?
   4. shoewizard Posted: August 16, 2012 at 07:53 AM (#4209468)
Yeah but if the teams themselves are penalized, they will be militant when it comes to enforcement.
   5. Lassus Posted: August 16, 2012 at 08:03 AM (#4209470)
"And we can start with Furcal. First offense: two fingers! Second offense: One foot!
   6. Rants Mulliniks Posted: August 16, 2012 at 08:10 AM (#4209471)
I would have no problem with a 162 games suspension, without pay, for the first offense. Lifetime ban for the second. I don't think you can justify penalizing the team over and above that.
   7. Bob Tufts Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4209498)
Did Kirk Gibson visit his alma mater MSU in the off-season and get to know Tony Mandarich well?
   8. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4209553)
I would have no problem with a 162 games suspension, without pay, for the first offense. Lifetime ban for the second. I don't think you can justify penalizing the team over and above that.
So when the CBA gets opened again to change to this, how long until someone gets suspended for steroids, and people start saying "LIFETIME BAN FOR FIRST POSITIVE TEST!!!"

There is no way that you will EVER have enough of a deterrent that people will stop doing it, so long as you're paying players millions of dollars. There will *always* be players who are willing to take the risk.

I think the current system is fine. People need to accept that it will always be part of the game, and there's only so much you can do about it.
   9. Hack Wilson Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4209555)
Isn't the minimum penalty in track and field a two-year ban?

I follow cycling and wondered what the standard period is. I have seen one year, two year and lifetime ban (no they really mean it unlike the Steve Howe lifetime ban). I found this when looking it up:
1897
Choppy Warburton of Haslingden, England died aged 52. He was described by the Lancashire Family History Society: "Choppy has been firmly identified as the instigator of drug-taking in the sport [cycling] in the 19th century." Warburton was banned from the sport after unproven claims of massive doping in the 1896 Bordeaux–Paris. His activities may have contributed to the early deaths of Arthur Linton, Tom Linton and Jimmy Michael.

Did Cap Anson ever pass a drug test?
   10. zack Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4209581)
I would have no problem with a 162 games suspension, without pay, for the first offense. Lifetime ban for the second. I don't think you can justify penalizing the team over and above that.


Haven't there been proven instances of products that were labeled as clean but ended up tainted (I think usually with masking agents rather than actual steroids)? In that case a whole season is too harsh.

I would be in favor of penalizing the team in some fashion as well, maybe by not taking the suspended player from the active roster?
   11. Randy Jones Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4209587)
If you really want to reduce the amount of players using PED's, harsher penalties aren't going to do much. Increase the chances of getting caught(more frequent testing) and you might have a chance.
   12. Bob Tufts Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4209595)
Zack - about ten years after the passage of DSHEA (the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act), a study showed that 25% of all supplements had steroids and 10% had ephedra or amphetamines in them. This is why any athlete that takes something that is not on the NSF approved supplemtns list is simply crazy.

PS - Government Reform crank Rep. Henry Waxman was the person that helped get this law through the House.

PPS - most ephedra products were manufactured in Utah, so Sen. Orrin Hatch was also supportive of the measure. You couldn't get a cup of coffee or coke, but you could make speed in the Beehive State!
   13. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4209605)
You couldn't get a cup of coffee or coke, but you could make speed in the Beehive State!


They don't care what the gentiles do.
   14. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4209606)
Remind me, did anyone call for the Carolina Panthers to have their NFC Championship visit stricken from the record books after it was revealed half the team was on PEDs? Did anyone want the Chargers to forfeit games after Shawne Merriman was suspended? The Texans when Brian Cushing was suspended?
   15. bigglou115 Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4209613)
14. Actually, if memory serves all three of those opinions were stated. But the only one I remember making ESPN was the Chargers.
   16. Bob Tufts Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4209615)
Maybe we are missing an opportunity.

Forget revenue sharing and the competitive balance taxes! Perhaps we could try to achieve MLB parity by using a sliding scale of sanctioned PED use? Players in San Diego, Kansas City and Houston get the right to use under doctor's supervision, while the Yankees and Rangers get extremely stringent testing.

And in the process, we could do extensive medical examinations on the users to determine exactly what steroids do and do not do to our bodies.
   17. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4209619)
If you want to punish the teams, then any money that would be paid to the player during his suspension is actually paid doubly as a fine to the league.

Your $1.5million reserve infielder gets popped for steroids? Then you pay ($1.5million/162)*50*2=$925,925 in fines.
Your $17million superstar outfielder has an overabundance of testosterone? Then you pay $10,493,827 in fines.

You'll see teams cracking down on that #### REAL fast.
   18. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4209628)
You couldn't get a cup of coffee or coke, but you could make speed in the Beehive State!

Huh?
   19. Dale Sams Posted: August 16, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4209629)
I think Alan King should stick Mrs. Cabrera in a shock room.
   20. Cris E Posted: August 16, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4209652)
To get the teams' attention you need to tag them with a substance violation tax a la the Luxury Tax. After the first offense in a three year window fine the organization a lot, and have it go up a lot more for second or third or fourth within the window. Minor leaguers might cost less money but still count towards the violation counts. I'm thinking $2m/$4m/$8m/$16m (or $3m/$6m/$12m/$24m) just to help foster a sense that the issue matters in the organization.

EDIT: I'd also give a break to teams that turned players in, but I'd still hold organizations accountable for any players who'd been cut recently.
   21. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4209668)
You couldn't get a cup of coffee or coke, but you could make speed in the Beehive State!

Huh?


Not sure what the "huh?" is directed toward; the reference, I presume, is to the fact that the magic underwear lunatics who run the theocracy known as Utah abjure caffeine.
   22. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: August 16, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4209671)
Did anyone want the Chargers to forfeit games after Shawne Merriman was suspended?

Forfeit games??? Hell, he finished 3rd in Defensive Player of the Year voting and played in the Pro Bowl during the same season he served a 4-game steroid suspension.
   23. Booey Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4209678)
You couldn't get a cup of coffee or coke, but you could make speed in the Beehive State!

Huh?


That was my thought as well. I understand the reference, but it's so inaccurate it's just non-sensical.
   24. valuearbitrageur Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4209679)
Not sure what the "huh?" is directed toward; the reference, I presume, is to the fact that the magic underwear lunatics who run the theocracy known as Utah abjure caffeine.


If they wear magic underwear, doesn't that make them geniuses?

Hater!
   25. Joey B. "disrespects the A" Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4209680)
Not sure what the "huh?" is directed toward; the reference, I presume, is to the fact that the magic underwear lunatics who run the theocracy known as Utah abjure caffeine.

Oh bullsh*t, who do you think you're kidding. He said "You couldn't get a cup of coffee or coke, but you could make speed in the Beehive State!". This isn't true, nor has it been true at any time in recent history. Some of you idiots really need to stop getting all your information from Balloon Juice.
   26. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4209688)
I don't think he thought that was factual; I think he was just taking shots at the LDS church.
   27. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4209689)
Some of you idiots really need to stop getting all your information from Balloon Juice.


I've seen several references to Balloon Juice, but I have no clue what it is. Some sort of blogsite? (I could, of course, quickly find out ... but that would require me giving a damn, which I don't.)
   28. Booey Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4209697)
I don't think he thought that was factual; I think he was just taking shots at the LDS church.


I get that. Still, a reference that's been relevant sometime in the last century or so would've been funnier.
   29. Moeball Posted: August 16, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4209699)
Forfeit games??? Hell, he finished 3rd in Defensive Player of the Year voting and played in the Pro Bowl during the same season he served a 4-game steroid suspension.


And got a new big fat Nike contract to boot. And half the people in town proudly wore his jersey.

In the NFL, it pays to do steroids.
   30. Bob Tufts Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4209737)
From the mormon.org website:

Why don’t Mormons drink coffee, tea, or alcohol? What is the Mormon Church’s law of health and proper diet?

Our body is a precious gift from God. To help keep our bodies and our minds healthy and strong, God gave a law of health to Joseph Smith in 1833. This law is known as the Word of Wisdom (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:1-21).

In addition to emphasizing the benefits of proper eating and physical and spiritual health, God has spoken against the use of:

Tobacco.
Alcohol.
Coffee and tea.
Illegal drugs.

God promises great physical and spiritual blessings to those who follow the Word of Wisdom. Today, the scientific community promotes some of the same principles that a loving God gave to Joseph Smith nearly two centuries ago.
   31. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4209738)
They even revoted for the award and he won the second time too! Then again its the nfl so no one cares about what the players do
   32. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4209753)

They even revoted for the award and he won the second time too! Then again its the nfl so no one cares about what the players do


That happened to Cushing not Merriman, and it was the Defensive Rookie of the Year Award.
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4209754)
They even revoted for the award and he won the second time too! Then again its the nfl so no one cares about what the players do


Two different cases. Merriman won the NFL Player of the Year award and was named to the Pro Bowl after having served a steroid suspension during that season. As a result of some outcry, it was decided that players who served a steroid suspension during the season would not be eligible for selection to the Pro Bowl or other performance-based awards.

However, Brian Cushing was later voted Defensive Rookie of the Year by the AP. It was found he had failed a drug test during the season, but it was not revaled until after the vote, a case similar to the pre-overturn Ryan Braun case. In that instance, the AP decided to revote, and Cushing won again. The BBWAA, in contrast, claimed it wouldn't revote the NL MVP, which became moot once the Braun suspension was voided.

There are definite differences in how steroid use is viewed by NFL players compared to MLB players, but it's not quite true that no one cares about the former. Whether the Merriman or Cushing cases unfold the exact same way absent the steroid frenzy that surrounded baseball is unknowable, but my hunch is that PED use in football has become a little less tolerated as a result of the backlash against them in baseball.

   34. Booey Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4209770)
Bob #30 - I know all that. I think most people do.

However, A) saying the LDS church advises their members not to drink coffee, tea, etc, is a big difference than saying that you CAN'T get coffee and such in Utah. There are coffee shops (especially Starbucks) EVERYWHERE in SLC, same as in the rest of the country. And B) notice that the info you posted doesn't include Coke or any other soda. That's a myth that people keep perpetuating for some unknown reason.

Edit: And yes, I know you were just making a joke and that Joey and I took it too seriously, etc, etc.
   35. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: August 16, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4209780)
There are definite differences in how steroid use is viewed by NFL players compared to MLB players, but it's not quite true that no one cares about the former.
In football, guys are going to far, but it's get an edge, and help the team win. In baseball, they're trying to break records and get money.
   36. Bob Tufts Posted: August 16, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4209813)
Edit: And yes, I know you were just making a joke and that Joey and I took it too seriously, etc, etc.


Understood Booey. A long time ago (30+ years), we used to go to clubs and drink in SLC after games at Derks Field.

I spent time seriously examining religious doctrine before and when I converted to Judaism, only to realize that "South Park" and Father Maxi pretty much summed it all up nicely. I could have saved lots of time and effort by merely watching Comedy Central.

And the episode about the Harrisons was a good summation of religion's purpose, also!

   37. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4209825)
I've seen several references to Balloon Juice, but I have no clue what it is. Some sort of blogsite?


It's the internet's #1 Google result for the phrase, "skull #### a kitten".

More seriously, hit the link - you'd like it there.
   38. Booey Posted: August 16, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4209878)
Understood Booey. A long time ago (30+ years), we used to go to clubs and drink in SLC after games at Derks Field.


That's cool. I used to go to games at Derks to watch the Trappers as a kid back in the '80's. The field (and team) names have changed at least 3 times since then.

Edit: And I totally agree that South Park of all shows, does some of the best and funniest religious depictions around. They're one of the few shows that seem to know how to poke fun at all the quirky weirdness of different faiths without actually coming across as vindictive or spiteful.
   39. Bob Tufts Posted: August 16, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4209902)
"As a kid back in the 80's" - I played there in 1978, 1980 and 1981 when I was with Phoenix on my way to becoming an old man.

To your point, as Gary Harrison says at the end of "All About Mormons":

"Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up, but I have a great life. and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. ### my balls!"
   40. Booey Posted: August 16, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4209911)
#39 - Exactly. That's what I meant in post#38; South Park sure isn't shy about poking fun where there's fun to be had, and I love that. But they also pointed out the family values and other good that comes from certain beliefs, and at the end of that episode the other kids ended up thinking the Mormon kid was cool.

Do you watch the Simpsons too? There was that episode where Lisa found out that their town founder and hero Jebediah Springfield was a fraud and a criminal, and she was going to reveal it to the entire town, but at the end she thought better of it because "The myth of Jebediah has value too."

That's pretty much my take on religion. The people who spend so much time and effort trying to debunk it are, IMO, missing the main point. Obviously it's not for everyone and like almost everything else it can be downright harmful in the hands of the wrong people, but for many others, if it gives them a sense of direction and purpose and makes them feel better about themselves and their lives, then it doesn't matter whether or not it's literally true. It's still served it's purpose in a positive way. Again, IMO. YMMV.

Sorry to be preachy. I'll stop now. :-)
   41. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 16, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4209912)
To get the teams' attention you need to tag them with a substance violation tax a la the Luxury Tax. After the first offense in a three year window fine the organization a lot, and have it go up a lot more for second or third or fourth within the window. Minor leaguers might cost less money but still count towards the violation counts. I'm thinking $2m/$4m/$8m/$16m (or $3m/$6m/$12m/$24m) just to help foster a sense that the issue matters in the organization.
EDIT: I'd also give a break to teams that turned players in, but I'd still hold organizations accountable for any players who'd been cut recently.


Octavio Dotel or Matt Stairs testing positive could bankrupt the entire league.
   42. smileyy Posted: August 16, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4209917)
[40] After having been a virulent atheist for much of my youth, I've settled into that position as well.

I'm still convinved that every churchful of religious people are all waiting for another person to crack and say "None of us actually believe this do we?" before they all giggle about their collective lie, and move on with their lives like nothing has happened.

OTOH, the fervor and zeal that religion inspires can be dangerous (as can other things, such as tribalism and nationalism), and those wielding religion should be looked upon with skepticism, because of that power.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: August 16, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4209922)
If you want to punish the teams, then any money that would be paid to the player during his suspension is actually paid doubly as a fine to the league.

Your $1.5million reserve infielder gets popped for steroids? Then you pay ($1.5million/162)*50*2=$925,925 in fines.
Your $17million superstar outfielder has an overabundance of testosterone? Then you pay $10,493,827 in fines.

You'll see teams cracking down on that #### REAL fast.


Now that is a system I can support. As it stands now, the team actually benefits(financially) from a player popping positive. It should be in the rules that they still have to pay out the equivalent(or double) the salary lost to either fines or a charity not affiliated with the organization.

I get that. Still, a reference that's been relevant sometime in the last century or so would've been funnier.


I thought it was quite funny. Of course any pop shots taken at the third largest cult in america(behind christianity as a whole, and republicans) is going to be somewhat joyful.
   44. Booey Posted: August 16, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4209923)
I'm still convinved that every churchful of religious people are all waiting for another person to crack and say "None of us actually believe this do we?" before they all giggle about their collective lie.


On the flipside though, sometimes I also wonder how many atheists secretly pray when things go wrong in their lives or they have a family member in the hospital or whatever. There's gotta be some of these as well, right?

   45. jwb Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:41 AM (#4210179)
I don't think you can justify penalizing the team over and above that.

I can:
The team plays short a player for the length of the suspension.
The manager gets an equal suspension.
The team pays 3x the player's and manager's salary to RBI. (once for the salary, twice for their lack of oversight).

Zack - about ten years after the passage of DSHEA (the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act), a study showed that 25% of all supplements had steroids

Bob Tufts: The German sports medicine institute did a similar study and found about 20% of supplements sold in Europe were steroid tainted.
   46. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:40 AM (#4210208)
Jwb, a team cannot watch over a player and control his everyday life there is just no legal.or pratical way to do that. Therefore punishing a team based on one players "devient" conduct cannot be used as a basis of lunishing the orginazation.
   47. jwb Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:30 AM (#4210220)
Enron was shut down due to the deviant conduct of a small number of players, so I disagree.

Management and ownership have very little skin in the game. Take away what they value most, money and managing, and they may take a more pro-active stance towards avoiding such deviant behavior.
   48. Gaylord Perry the Platypus (oi!) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:56 AM (#4210244)
The only way you'll see increased penalties is if TV ratings and attendance are affected by steroids. As long as the effects continue to be limited to columnists wailing about it, and a small group of people arguing on the internet, baseball will continue down their current path.
   49. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: August 17, 2012 at 09:59 AM (#4210309)
Enron was shut down due to the deviant conduct of a small number of players, so I disagree.


Yes and no. Enron went bankrupt because its business model was fundamentally unworkable long-term, and while that model was certainly designed and set by a small number of individuals, arguably thousands of people across the company could and should have understood how they claimed to be making money.

The recipe of booking a 20-year contract, claiming all the profit up front against a market curve that the traders made up, then using the company's share value as collateral, is not a practice anyone could defend with a straight face, even at the time. When you do that, and the share price drops, you crater hard. (That's not to say that there wasn't lots of malfeasance; there was, but the company was doomed regardless.)
   50. Randy Jones Posted: August 17, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4210315)
I can:
The team plays short a player for the length of the suspension.
The manager gets an equal suspension.
The team pays 3x the player's and manager's salary to RBI. (once for the salary, twice for their lack of oversight).


That's still not harsh enough. These are STEROIDS we are talking about. The most horrible plague to ever afflict mankind.

1. Team is dissolved and all their records and mentions of their existence expunged from all sources.
2. The players and coaching staff and clubhouse personnel are banished to a remote island that is guarded by a Navy blockade.
3. Ownership and front office personnel are stripped of all assets and forced to roam the streets wearing placards stating "We enabled steroid abuse".
4. Player who actually tested positive is hanged, drawn and quartered on live television(ESPN of course).
   51. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4210342)
Player who actually tested positive is hanged, drawn and quartered on live television (ESPN of course).

He should be drawn and quinted, you typical steroid apologist.

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