I'm not big on sentimental inductions, but the truth is that after Mantle and Williams, Minoso was the best American League outfielder in the 50's. That may say more about the plss-poor quality of the AL of the 50's than it does about Minoso, but in the land of Glaucoma and Cataracts, the one eyed man may be a Hall of Famer.

but the truth is that after Mantle and Williams, Minoso was the best American League outfielder in the 50's.

you know, when I first read that, I thought "no wait..there was..ummmm"

best OPS+ AL outfielders 1950-59, minimum 3000 PAs

1 Ted Williams 185
2 Mickey Mantle 173
3 Larry Doby 138
4 Minnie Minoso 137
5 Bob Nieman 132
6 Al Kaline 131
7 Gene Woodling 126
8 Jackie Jensen 123
9 Roy Sievers 123
10 Hank Bauer 117



Bob Nieman? Bob frickin Nieman?? I always assumed his career went downhill after his first 2 major league at bats

EDIT: even if you drop the PA requirement to 2000, you pick up Rocky at 143 and that's about it

I like Minoso, too, but quoting Gore Vidal is an automatic FAIL...

To Latin players, he was as important as Jackie Robinson was to blacks

Not to diminish Minoso as either a player or a pioneer, but this statement involves some oversimplification. Dolf Luque and Hiram Bithorn, among others, were very important to Latin players both white and black. Minoso followed Robinson as a black star, but he followed Luque as a Cuban star. I don't think Minoso's profile in Cuba or elsewhere in Latin America was quite like Robinson's among African-Americans.

I don't think Minoso's profile in Cuba or elsewhere in Latin America was quite like Robinson's among African-Americans.

I would have to agree here--in the 50s, Minoso was thought of as a black player, not a Latin player (well, to be perfectly honest, in the 50s, he was thought of as a colored player)

people like Bobby Avila , Carrasquel, and Little Looie were the ones who were thought of as Latin (also white, for some reason)

The Hall of Merit did elect him but we argued about him for nearly 20 "years." He first became eligible in 1970 and we elected him in 1987. In 1987 he appeared on 32 out of 53 ballots cast, with at least one vote in every spot from #1 to #15. And while 32 out of 53 ballots may not seem like much, in that backlog year, only Ralph Kiner (34) and Ken Boyer (32) appeared on more. Kiner, Minoso, and Billy Pierce were elected that year, while Boyer would make it in 1991.

A key point in our debates in the HoM was how much credit to give him for his play before his major league career started. While it is likely that discrimination delayed the start of his career, it also appears to be the case the Minoso is younger than the age given while he was playing, and that he was something of a late bloomer, so that the major league portion of his career is probably the best of it.

That makes him a borderliner: qualified, but not overwhelmingly qualified, and competing with many other borderliners. To underline this point, here is the list of people whom we elected to the Hall of Merit after Minoso became eligible but before Minoso's election - so, by definition, we collectively regarded as more qualified than Minoso. (Some of them are in the "well, duh" category - of course Willie Mays is more qualified. But look at the more marginal cases.)

Duke Snider
Early Wynn
Warren Spahn
Clark Griffith
Robin Roberts
Sandy Koufax
Bobby Doerr
Whitey Ford
Cool Papa Bell
Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Don Drysdale
Biz Mackey
Willard Brown
Joe Gordon
Ernie Banks
Jim Bunning
Roberto Clemente
Hoyt Wilhelm
Willie Mays
George Sisler
Al Kaline
Ron Santo
Juan Marichal
Bob Gibson
Harmon Killebrew
Hank Aaron
Frank Robinson
Billy Williams
Dick Allen
Joe Torre
Brooks Robinson
Jose Mendez
Bill Freehan
Willie McCovey
Rube Waddell

But then, here are people who were eligible before Minoso was elected and who were elected after Minoso - so, by definition, we thought they were less qualified than Minoso but still good enough for the Hall.

Cupid Childs
Ken Boyer
Quincy Trouppe
Nellie Fox
Edd Roush
Jake Beckley
Charley Jones
Pete Browning
Dick Lundy

The real question is why Negro Leaguers who were blocked during the first parts of their careers (e.g. Monte Irvin and Satchel Paige, arguably Campanella and Doby, and yes even Jackie himself) got elected quickly to the Hall, while a Latino contemporary who was comparable in many ways has had to wait more than 40 years going now.

I don't think Minoso's profile in Cuba or elsewhere in Latin America was quite like Robinson's among African-Americans.

I would have to agree here--in the 50s, Minoso was thought of as a black player, not a Latin player (well, to be perfectly honest, in the 50s, he was thought of as a colored player)

people like Bobby Avila , Carrasquel, and Little Looie were the ones who were thought of as Latin (also white, for some reason)

While it's true that Minoso's stature in Latin America isn't close to being comparable to Jackie Robinson's stature among African Americans (or whites, for that matter), he was certainly thought of as "Latin" as well as black throughout the 50's. And in terms of the jokes that were directed against him, they almost always had more to do with his accent and fractured English as it did with his skin color. It wasn't one of those either-or situations---to most fans he wasn't Larry Doby and he wasn't Luis Aparicio, but he was a little bit of both.

(e.g. Monte Irvin and Satchel Paige, arguably Campanella and Doby, and yes even Jackie himself)

Irvin, Paige, Campanella, Doby, and Robinson weren't on my list in post #6 because they were all elected to the HoM before 1970. Campanella, Doby, and Robinson were easy to elect almost entirely on the ML records. With Irvin, we did have good evidence of production in the Negro Leagues and majors both. Paige we elected almost entirely on his career outside the majors.

There are still hard cases involving those caught in the harshness of the transition, with the Negro Leagues declining in competitive level while the major league doors were not yet swung wide open. Don Newcombe, for instance (although he lost as much time to military service as he did to the slow pace of integration). Willard Brown, whom we did elect, and Bus Clarkson, whom we haven't elected.

The real question is why Negro Leaguers who were blocked during the first parts of their careers (e.g. Monte Irvin and Satchel Paige, arguably Campanella and Doby, and yes even Jackie himself) got elected quickly to the Hall, while a Latino contemporary who was comparable in many ways has had to wait more than 40 years going now.

Well of those you named, only Robinson and Campanella were elected "quickly" on the basis of their Major League careers, and deservedly so. Paige and Irvin got in as Negro Leaguers, and Doby---who's the only truly "comparable" player to Minoso---had to wait nearly 40 years for his own induction. I see Minoso as being slightly better than Doby, but in the real world Doby got a bit of credit for being several different "firsts"---first black AL player, 1st black to hit a WS home run, 1st AL black to lead the league in key offensive categories, etc.

I'm not big on sentimental inductions, but the truth is that after Mantle and Williams, Minoso was the best American League outfielder in the 50's.

I like it when this site inspires Stat of the Day blog postings from me. (Note: I lept to it before reading the rest of this thread, so it's probably a little redundant of post #2, but I used RC instead of OPS+, and Minoso actually beats Doby that way).

Minoso also beats Larry Doby if you look at career win shares (Minoso 283, Jim Rice 282, Doby 268), particularly considering that Doby's first full season came at age 24 and Minoso's at age 25 (probably), both retarded by the color line. And Minoso won three Gold Gloves beginning at age 31, when GG's began to be awarded. If Minoso had been able to have a full career, it would have had the overall dimensions of Roberto Clemente's.