Here we go with Sosa again. Sigh.

I think I might be more concerned that the HoF sees anti-drug education as part of its educational mission.

I think I might be more concerned that the HoF sees anti-drug education as part of its educational mission.

Any group that deals with kids should make anti-drug education part of its mission.

That being said, I'd also hope anti-alcohol and -tobacco education is also part of its mission, but have I have no problem with them sending ballots out with drinkers and smokers.

Any group that deals with kids should make anti-drug education part of its mission.

Not if they're remotely intelligent. Kids are going to grow up and use drugs. If you're going to teach about drugs, teaching kids to be responsible is the only worthwhile use of time.

Which I say as someone who only uses two drugs: alcohol, which I'm mostly responsible with, and caffeine, which I abuse the God-fearing hell out of. But I'm not so naive as to think "Winners don't use drugs" is an effective use of time.

Nevermind that Science Camp, say, shouldn't really be taking time out of worthwhile science to engage in an unproductive two minute hate.

<blockquote>In other words, it’s my problem. Mine, and the other 500-some Hall of Fame voters.</blockquote.

White people problems.

But I'm not so naive as to think "Winners don't use drugs" is an effective use of time.

The Onion agrees.

Not if they're remotely intelligent. Kids are going to grow up and use drugs. If you're going to teach about drugs, teaching kids to be responsible is the only worthwhile use of time.

IS there a responsible way to use crack and cocaine?

“We believe in allowing voters to use their own value judgment,” he said. “We’re very comfortable with the rules for election as they stand.”

In other words, it’s my problem. Mine, and the other 500-some Hall of Fame voters.

Great.

The ability to exercise one's own sound discretion is so very burdensome.

IS there a responsible way to use crack and cocaine?

Is there a responsible way to use tobacco?

BTW...latest Bonds/Clemens HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo.

35 - Will vote for B/C.

52 - Will Not vote for B/C.

37 - Not Sure.

The ability to exercise one's own sound discretion is so very burdensome.

In matters of moral judgment, such as this one, it often is burdensome.

The HOF is washing its hands of a key responsibility of overseeing its own house; setting the rules. Leave it to the wisdom of the mob, who will demand they be given "Barabbas" Morris while crucifying a god (Bonds).

Is there a responsible way to use tobacco?

Well, waiting until you're legal age is a good start.

If you're trying to talk to kids about sex, for example, I agree that the abstinence stance just isn't going to work. And it's not necessary, since there are responsible ways for them to have sex. But if you're talking to them about the likes of hard drugs, I don't know if there is any other way. You can't teach them about "responsible" heroin use because there's no such thing. It's a dangerous and irresponsible habit in and of itself.

On first blush, I read this as the HOF giving cover to people who want to vote for B and C, along the lines of "Now that the Hall has instituted a steroid-education policy, the children don't have as much to fear from B and C being inducted."

That could be way off.

Not if they're remotely intelligent. Kids are going to grow up and use drugs. If you're going to teach about drugs, teaching kids to be responsible is the only worthwhile use of time.

Especially when part of the message is often, "Here, take this Ritalin so you can stay calm enough to hear our anti-drug message."

..."Barabbas" Morris while crucifying a god (Bonds)

Brilliant analogy.

What is funny is a pregnant woman using cocaine will have a child who goes through some withdrawal symptoms but otherwise will be fine while the woman who drinks while pregnant will have high odds of having a child with fetal alcohol syndrome which is a lifetime disability. Yet if you ask the average person I'd bet on 99 out of 100 saying cocaine is worse.

Drug education is vital, but not in the 'don't use it' method but in the 'here is what each does to you and why' method. Same with sex, same with everything. The current paranoia about performance enhancing drugs is crazy as players have used, and still use, many things that are not good for them long term in order to succeed today. Better by far to say 'yes, steroids help you recover quicker but also lead to the following issues...' followed by 'if you use this instead you can get similar benefits without those side effects'. I'm sure if steroids and the like weren't demonized we could see more progress in making them less harmful. Of course, then you'd need a strong education effort and it seems too often education is seen as evil unless it makes people feel safe in their old assumptions (thus not education but head patting).

IS there a responsible way to use crack and cocaine?

Is there a responsible way to use tobacco?

Of course there is. Didn't Louis B. Meyer confine himself to a single post-dinner cigarette? Millions of people smoke the occasional cigar.

Oh--you were poking a stick through the bars. Never mind.

Btw, there are recreational heroin users, fwiw.

Btw, there are recreational heroin users, fwiw.

I'm sure there are. Still not a risk I'd be willing to take to just tell my kid to "be responsible with it" rather than "don't do it." There's a time and place for the former and for the latter.

Ya think?

But if you're talking to them about the likes of hard drugs, I don't know if there is any other way. You can't teach them about "responsible" heroin use because there's no such thing. It's a dangerous and irresponsible habit in and of itself.

If you changed that wording to "meth", I'd agree. There's no responsible regular meth usage.

You can be pretty functional and not dying every day with clean needles, clean heroin and a clean place to use. Some of those can be hard to come by given the nation's drug criminalization policies though.

This thread should have its children taken away.

Ya think?

My comment was in response to #3, who said "Kids are going to grow up and use drugs. If you're going to teach about drugs, teaching kids to be responsible is the only worthwhile use of time."

Not sure I agree with that. Not all kids are going to use drugs, and parents can go a long way towards preventing them from using altogether rather than just shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Kids will be kids. Just be careful."

What advice would you give your kids regarding "safe" drug use? Only use a clean needle? Always have a buddy present in case of an OD? Only buy from reputable dealers that have your best interests at heart?

You can be pretty functional and not dying every day with clean needles, clean heroin and a clean place to use. Some of those can be hard to come by given the nation's drug criminalization policies though

Yeah, but there's a big difference between what theoretically can happen and what usually does happen.

I think the advise regarding illegal drug use (vs the legal drugs we get to keep alive in some cases - make sure you make it clear to your kids there are different types) should be...

1) It is a bad idea. The kid (if they are intelligent) asks 'why'. Response has to cover the effects of various drugs and how the temporary 'good feeling' it can give is outweighed by the bad later and the effects it can leave on your body.

2) Drug dealers will try to get you to start via cheap prices, unrealistic promises, and pressure from 'friends' who already use. Make sure your child understands this and is aware. Peer pressure is an amazingly powerful thing, as is praise from someone older (drug dealer) and the scum out there who deal it know it.

3) Don't use drugs at home and try to minimize stuff that is also 'bad' or your kid will see you as a hypocrite and act accordingly. I don't smoke, drink alcohol (outside of a 1/2 glass of wine at a wedding), or do illegal drugs. I do take medicine for high blood pressure. My kids know this and see my medicine and I explain what it is and why I use it.

Now, will this stop my kids from doing cocaine or marijuana or other stuff? Not necessarily. So telling them about those drugs helps them understand that, should they choose to use to do so in a way that minimizes risk. IE: no sharing needles - easy way to explain is to mention it when something is in the news and point out how sad it is when kids die due to their saving a few pennies on needles while blowing hundreds if not thousands on drugs.

Trust your kids. Show them you do. Because, like it or not, they spend more time around friends than they will with you as they grow up and they will be exposed to stuff you wish they wouldn't. Help them learn how to think through the dangers and they have a chance. Hit them with 'just say no' and you are asking for pain as kids hear you say 'no' and go 'then I must do it to rebel'.

Depending on the age of the children, going by your numbers

1) This demonizes drugs. Bad idea. Marijuana is benign. I'd much, much rather my kid get high than drink, and I'd much rather they learn from me about what can get added to grass if they're not careful (another wonderful side effect in the wonderful war on drugs) than from the doc in the emergency room. If your kid hears you say these things about grass they'll know you don't know what you're talking about.

2) Who are you--Nancy Reagan? Teach your kids the difference between addictive and nonaddictive drugs. Demonize drugs and drug dealers is going to be as effective as preaching abstinence. It's fine to tell your kids you expect them to abstain, but then failing to teach them to use condoms is just begging to be called "grandpa". The first drugs your kid buys is likely to be from a classmate. Painting them as evil succubi paints you as hopelessly out of touch and hardly knowledgable.

3) Use the drugs you use responsibly and, for god's sake, don't smoke cigarettes.

As for the later grafs, "Trust your kids" by spooking them about dealers? Too late, I suspect, but yes, not sharing needles is sound advice.

The negative consequence for most kids who use illegal drugs has to do with getting caught up in and ###### by the criminal "justice" system and the prison-industrial complex. I painted a very clear picture to my daughter about how that works. You don't have to hyperbolize to communicate that one effectively.

The negative consequence for most kids who use illegal drugs has to do with getting caught up in and ###### by the criminal "justice" system and the prison-industrial complex


I'd be much more worried about the possible effects of the drugs themselves (addiction, overdoses, etc) or the lifestyle drug use can possibly lead to in order to support it (crime, failing at school, jobs, relationships, etc). Getting busted and having to do a week in juvie and some court ordered rehab would be the least of my worries.

That's because you're of the social class who, when busted, has to do a week in juvie and some court ordered rehab instead of getting caught up in and ###### by the criminal "justice" system and the prison-industrial complex.

That's because you're of the social class who, when busted, has to do a week in juvie and some court ordered rehab instead of getting caught up in and ###### by the criminal "justice" system and the prison-industrial complex.

What social class would that be? We're talking about minors here; in what state would a kid get anything more serious than that for simple possession or for failing a court ordered drug test? My older stepdaughter got busted/failed tests a dozen times and never got anything stronger than various combinations of short stints in juvie, mandatory rehab, community service, and house arrest.

Is an Adderall prescription "responsible" meth use?

LOTS of people used cocaine during the 70s and 80s. The vast majority was never addicted. Heroin use/abuse is only a problem if you can't afford it or otherwise get more. My mom has shot heroine. My grandma took speed in college to study for exams (she became a psychiatrist like her dad who in his Bohemian -- literally -- days did who know what drugs).

Is an Adderall prescription "responsible" meth use?

LOTS of people used cocaine during the 70s and 80s. The vast majority was never addicted. Heroin use/abuse is only a problem if you can't afford it or otherwise get more. My mom has shot heroine. My grandma took speed in college to study for exams (she became a psychiatrist like her dad who in his Bohemian -- literally -- days did who know what drugs).

Drugs are dangerous. So ####### what. Lots of things are dangerous. Motorcycles. Auto racing. Football. Cliff diving. Unprotected sex with Tiujana prostitutes. Joining the army.

Joining the army.

This is a bad example. There's a difference between putting your life at risk for a cause and putting it at risk for no good reason.


Unprotected sex with Tiujana prostitutes.

I'm pretty sure I'd advise my son against doing this too. :)


Edit: And yes, I realize many people would consider dying in the current war to be "for no good reason." I meant defending your country in general.

Yes i would and will advise my son against doing all these things. That doesnt mean i think they should be illegal or that people who do them anyway are immoral or subhuman.

As for the morality of joining the army... Well so what. Its still dangerous.

Joining the army.

This is a bad example. There's a difference between putting your life at risk for a cause and putting it at risk for no good reason.

Is this a trick question?

That doesnt mean i think they should be illegal or that people who do them anyway are immoral or subhuman.

I never said they should be or that they are. I just said I'm going to do what I can to keep my son away from them.


Is this a trick question?

It wasn't a question at all. It was a statement.