Kobe and Arod are awesome imagined as "pals." Two truly great atheletes (both second tier all time I would say) and two very unlikeable (from a distance) people. Both playing for much hated empires. Not sure who to add from the football and hockey side.

For football perhaps Tony Dorsett?

Can't think of the perfect Cowboy equivalent, but to me, the most similar to Kobe and ARod is Tom Brady.

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee? That's not exactly cutting edge technology.

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee?

For the Frauleins, duh.

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee? That's not exactly cutting edge technology.

Besides - I thought the socialized medicine of Europe had eliminated all medical research and only the US with its free market medicine was capable of breaking new ground.

Now I don't know what to believe.

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee? That's not exactly cutting edge technology.

Would you want someone with experience with the procedure or someone who had read a paper to do it on you?

Besides - I thought the socialized medicine of Europe had eliminated all medical research and only the US with its free market medicine was capable of breaking new ground.

Nothing beats old East Germany for wacky sports medicine.

Can't think of the perfect Cowboy equivalent, but to me, the most similar to Kobe and ARod is Tom Brady.

Ben Roethlisberger.

For hockey I'd say a Leaf would fit the bill in a Cowboys kind of way.

But only Phil Kessel is even within a hundred miles of being a "star".

Can't think of the perfect Cowboy equivalent, but to me, the most similar to Kobe and ARod is Tom Brady.

John Galt

It sounds like M and M is headed up to occupy Iowa.

Can't think of the perfect Cowboy equivalent, but to me, the most similar to Kobe and ARod is Tom Brady.

Is Brady really unlikeable? What has he done to make him unlikeable, besides beat your favorite team and have a lifestyle that would make you jealous?

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee? That's not exactly cutting edge technology.

There's something called "malpractice" here.

There's something called "malpractice" here.

Just because they call it kunstfehler doesn't mean it isn't fairly similar...

Ben Roethlisberger.

I love this one. Great team, very good player. Seemingly bad human being. Nice catch.

As to Tom Brady, I am not a fan, but other than approaching and perhaps eclisping the Great Joe Montana, I find it hard to hate him in any way.

There's something called "malpractice" here.

True. In Germany doctors are completely unaccountable. Cut off the wrong leg and a hearty, heartfelt "oops!" usually satisfies the family. It's a shame no one does risky procedures in the States any more.

This is great stuff. This is exactly the kind of thing that I want to see wrt legalizing PEDs, then making the results of PED use available as widely as possible.

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee? That's not exactly cutting edge technology.

This comment makes it sound like you aren't interested in the details, but the issue is which "some of it" you end up injecting. You know, platelets, red blood cells, antibodies, all that stuff. Obviously this treatment is trying to concentrate something or other. TFA practically goes out of its way to include no details.

Here's a two-page pdf with some details. Basically this procedure is kind of like injecting you with an anti-inflammatory protein (IL-1RA, sold as "anakinra" to treat autoimmune diseases) that binds to interleukin-1 and blocks it from acting. Interleukin-1 is a cytokine that activates white blood cells and can lead to feedback loops of undesirable inflammation. But instead of injecting you with anakinra, this procedure takes out some of your own blood, mixing it with these beads that are supposed to induce your own cells to release your own anakinra. Then centrifugation is used to separate blood cells from the rest of the liquid, which is called the serum. This "conditioned" serum is now enriched for anakinra and also probably enriched for other anti-inflammatory modulators, like TGF-beta, though the details will differ for each person. Then it gets injected into the one place you need it most.

Here is a pdf article in BioDrugs by Dr. Wehling, the brainbox behind the Orthokine therapy, stating that the "autologous conditioned serum" should also contain high levels of things that encourage wound healing, like fibroblast growth factor. That seems less well-established than the interleukin-1 inhibition.

I don't see this as a risky thing to do. Clinical trials on personalized biologic things like this are always difficult, so the establishment of universally acknowledged "evidence" can lag while people start using it. The principle makes sense.

Note that this is unrelated to the "platelet packing" procedure that some have used to heal their cartilage faster.

Finally, somebody seems to have introduced an anti-spam thing to this site so that we can't link to things with certain words ("drugs", presumably) in the URL.

This comment makes it sound like you aren't interested in the details, but the issue is which "some of it" you end up injecting. You know, platelets, red blood cells, antibodies, all that stuff. Obviously this treatment is trying to concentrate something or other. TFA practically goes out of its way to include no details.

No, I am interested in the details. The comment was probably snarkier than I intended. Thanks.

Do you think this is similar to what Colon went through last offseason? It sounds similar in broad strokes.

True. In Germany doctors are completely unaccountable. Cut off the wrong leg and a hearty, heartfelt "oops!" usually satisfies the family.

Funny thing is that this is kind of true, German law limits liability for death to funeral costs. So accidentally killing your patients is better than just crippling them.

There's something called "malpractice" here.

there is one similar procedure offered in the US, which they call "regenokine". The website is kind of touchy-feely-holistic

This comment makes it sound like you aren't interested in the details, but the issue is which "some of it" you end up injecting. You know, platelets, red blood cells, antibodies, all that stuff. Obviously this treatment is trying to concentrate something or other. TFA practically goes out of its way to include no details.

When you centrifuge blood, you separate the cells from the plasma. I don't know what the point of the procedure is but antibodies remain in the plasma so either the cellular material is injected, which I highly doubt, since the red cells would rupture, causing all kinds of free radical damage to the soft tissue, or the plasma is injected. The rationale behind why one would expect to induce a therapeutic effect by injecting plasma into a knee joint escapes me right now.

Do you think this is similar to what Colon went through last offseason? It sounds similar in broad strokes.

It is completely different, this is enriching the players own blood versus injecting stem cells. This is a pretty established treatment, there was a bit of a brouhaha about Chelsea using this on their team a few years ago.

Re#19.

Looks like quackery to me.

Is Brady really unlikeable? What has he done to make him unlikeable, besides beat your favorite team and have a lifestyle that would make you jealous?

Perhaps the break-up was amicable but Brady did split with his pregnant girlfriend and immediately began dating a supermodel. Without knowing all the details, that's not the classiest move in the world.

It is completely different, this is enriching the players own blood versus injecting stem cells.

?? How is it "enriching" the blood when it is injected directly into the joint?

And, if this goes badly I expect a lot of schadenfreude.

Can't think of the perfect Cowboy equivalent,

Michael Irvin

IL-1RA, sold as "anakinra" to treat autoimmune diseases

Does George Lucas get a cut?

Bartolo Colon's stem cell procedure didn't involve blood cells. He may have also gotten platelet-rich plasma.

Can't think of the perfect Cowboy equivalent, but to me, the most similar to Kobe and ARod is Tom Brady.


Is Brady really unlikeable? What has he done to make him unlikeable, besides beat your favorite team and have a lifestyle that would make you jealous?

Brady always looks like an unbelievable whiner (yet, to his credit, he usually keeps his mouth shut unlike Rivers and Cutler). I don't have a "favorite team" because I much prefer college football, and I don't read/follow the celebrity/TMZ crap,so I can't speak to his lifestyle that would make me jealous. I just really dislike watching him because he is always either sneering during success or pouting during failure. Roethlisberger is a good choice (and I thought of Irvin, too), but I don't see the Steelers as that hated.

Is it safe?

so I can't speak to his lifestyle that would make me jealous.

1. He's possibly the greatest QB of alltime.
2. He makes ridiculous sums of money.
3. He married possibly the most beautiful woman in the world.
4. This woman also makes ridiculous sums of money.

1. He's possibly the greatest QB of alltime.
2. He makes ridiculous sums of money.
3. He married possibly the most beautiful woman in the world.
4. This woman also makes ridiculous sums of money.

All of which may be true. However, while I sort of assumed number 2 is true, I'm pretty oblivious to points 3 and 4.

Hard to be oblivious to Giselle Bundchen, Will.

Several golfers have had this therapy in Germany as well, Fred Couples and VIjay Singh among them. Couples said of his visit, "I felt better after seeing this guy than I felt when I was 30."

Perhaps the break-up was amicable but Brady did split with his pregnant girlfriend and immediately began dating a supermodel. Without knowing all the details, that's not the classiest move in the world.

Actually, Brady broke up with his actress girlfriend, then they discovered she was pregnant with their child.

That's less douchey. Thanks, Tom.

I haven't RTFA, but why would you need to go to Germany to spin some blood in a centrifuge and then inject some of it in your knee? That's not exactly cutting edge technology.

Others have given more detail on the procedure, but to answer why Germany, I would presume that either the procedure is not approved in the US, or possibly there are few who can/will perform it.

1. He's possibly the greatest QB of alltime.

wait what

Not a Patriots fan here, but I think I should speak up. Relevant story.
My GF had a cousin serving in Afghanistan. A few years ago he was shot through the neck while on patrol. Thanks to the wonders of modern medicine and transport, in some ridiculous amount of time, like 48 hours or less, he was at Walter Reed getting surgery.
At the time, things looked real bad, as in they were wondering if he would live and if so how impaired his life would be. In cases like this, the Army sets up a message board for friends and family to get updates, post get well wishes etc...
A few days in, a message from Tom Brady shows up, which is strange, cuz the wounded cousin isn't from anywhere near New England and has never been a Pats or Brady fan. We though it was cool of Brady, that maybe he had a secretary/PR person send little notes to all the wounded soldiers-a classy touch, but nothing major.
Until two days later when Brady called...

Now I know athletes do this sort of stuff, some more than others, and some seek a whole lot more publicity than others, but I gotta tell ya, the gesture was greatly appreciated by the family-they are one group of folks it's not a smart idea to badmouth Brady around.
So say what ya like about the guy, but I think it says something when you are all 4 of the items noted in #31 and you still take time out of your busy life to offer support to someone who's given their all.

So my vote is against Brady in the cohort-Now, Big Ben, on the other hand...

It's kind of unfair to lump A-Rod in with Kobe and Roethlisberger. A-Rod may be a lousy person by general standards, but Kobe and Ben are (almost definitely) rapists. That's a whole other level.

Not sure who to add from the football and hockey side.

He's retired, but Mark Messier might be the closest thing to the group (illegitimate child(ren)).

In general, it's hard to find star NHL players to hate for their actions outside of the game.
The goons and the grinders might have problems (drugs, drinking), but the closest I can think of a "star" who has won the cup that has problems would be Patrick Kane (convicted of misdemeanors for punching a cabby for not having 20 cents change to give them for a $15 payment on a $14.80 cab fare in Buffalo).

Not a Patriots fan here, but I think I should speak up. Relevant story.
My GF had a cousin serving in Afghanistan. A few years ago he was shot through the neck while on patrol. Thanks to the wonders of modern medicine and transport, in some ridiculous amount of time, like 48 hours or less, he was at Walter Reed getting surgery.
At the time, things looked real bad, as in they were wondering if he would live and if so how impaired his life would be. In cases like this, the Army sets up a message board for friends and family to get updates, post get well wishes etc...
A few days in, a message from Tom Brady shows up, which is strange, cuz the wounded cousin isn't from anywhere near New England and has never been a Pats or Brady fan. We though it was cool of Brady, that maybe he had a secretary/PR person send little notes to all the wounded soldiers-a classy touch, but nothing major.
Until two days later when Brady called...

Now I know athletes do this sort of stuff, some more than others, and some seek a whole lot more publicity than others, but I gotta tell ya, the gesture was greatly appreciated by the family-they are one group of folks it's not a smart idea to badmouth Brady around.
So say what ya like about the guy, but I think it says something when you are all 4 of the items noted in #31 and you still take time out of your busy life to offer support to someone who's given their all.

So my vote is against Brady in the cohort-Now, Big Ben, on the other hand...

Great story, reminds me of a lot of the good things Kevin Garnett always does in the community while doing as much as possible to distance himself from any public mention or praise of his work. I truly have nothing against Brady, per se, but I didn't quite think Michael Irvin was the best fit and my reaction to Brady is pretty similar to ARod and Kobe - all of it is emotional and has nothing to do with the relevant merits of each as human beings.

For hockey I'd say a Leaf would fit the bill in a Cowboys kind of way.

Definitely. Can we use Brian Burke?

wait what

It's pretty simple:

1. Does this quarterback have a long record of consistent success?

Yes. His career record is 123-35 (.778). That's about as good as it gets. Percentage-wise, nobody else is close. Of the top 25 QBs in career wins, only Montana is remotely close (.713). In 2009, a study was written that adjusted Career W/L records for QBs based on the quality of defense that supported them. Brady was 3rd alltime at that time, between Favre and Elway. After this season, he has certainly passed Elway and may have caught Manning to be #1.

2. Has he had historic post-season success?

As much as any other quarterback. 3 superbowl wins. 2 SB MVPs. 9 post-season wins in a row.

3. Has he had any historic seasons?

Yes. He went 16-0 in 2007 and set the record for most touchdown passes in one season. He is the only QB with more than 1 season in the top 10 in QB rating. He is the only player to be unanimously chosen MVP. After this season, he is likely to be only the 3rd QB to throw for over 5000 yards.

4. How does he rate with the other great quarterbacks in career stats.

He is closing in on a lot of important career records. While still putting up MVP-caliber seasons, he is 14th alltime in career passing yardage (by the end of next year, barring injury, he should be in the top 8.). 6th in TDs (he might tie or even pass Elway this year), 4th highest passer rating career (ahead of Manning and Brees), 3rd alltime in lowest int%, 9th allitme in completion%, 6th alltime in game winning drives, etc.

5. Does he have any important records?

Yes. He has the record for most TD passes in a season. Two of his teammates, Randy Moss and Steve Gronkowski, also hold the record for most TD passes caught at their respective positions.

6. Is he talked about as one of the alltime greats?

He has been for years. John Madden, not given to superlatives, would often compare him favorably to Joe Montana.

7. How does he do on the black ink test?

He does very well. 2 times leading in QB rating, 3 times in TD passes, twice in passing yards, once in int. rate, once in yards/attempt.

Really, Brady has it all: the career accomplishments, the historic seasons, the historic records, the post-season success.

For hockey I'd say a Leaf would fit the bill in a Cowboys kind of way.

A Canadien over a Leaf, IMO - now THAT's a franchise to hate.

[44] The only caveat I'd add is that you can't call him THE greatest - it's too difficult, IMO, to choose between him and a few others definitively. That said, he's on the short list of 4-5 or so guys in the conversation for that spot.

I did. I said he's possibly the greatest.

Steve Gronkowski

Rob

Someone bagged on Philip Rivers earlier; a lot of people don't like him, think he's mouthy etc. But I have heard a couple of similar stories about him here in SD and saw one person get very emotional defending Rivers, since he reached out to a relative of hers who is in the service.

Everyone knows intellectually that we don't really know what kinds of guys most jocks are, but viscerally, people forget that, generally based on rooting interests. The other thing I think most people forget is that, as with everyone else, dickish or worse sides can exist in these guys right alongside their best qualities.

Not sure who to add from the football and hockey side.

If I recall, Ed Belfour was pretty unliked, in an AJ Pierogi/Dennis Rodman sort of way.

Brady is a great QB, but the game has changed so much that it is not really possible to compare between eras, but I will bring up a quote by Sid Luckman: "Unitas is the best. Better than me, better than Baugh, better than anyone".

If I recall, Ed Belfour was pretty unliked, in an AJ Pierogi/Dennis Rodman sort of way.

He'd give you a billion dollars if you promise not to tell anyone.

The media hates A-Rod, loves Brady and Kobe falls in between so it's hard for me to think of them as a grouping. I would say A-Rod is more LeBron James or if a football player, Jay Cutler or Phillip Rivers (both considered whiny and chokers). If Kobe was a baseball player, he'd be Barry Bonds (though not nearly as good).

He's possibly the greatest QB of all time.

I don't think he's even the greatest QB of this era.

Although it's close, I think Drew Brees is a better overall QB than Brady. The reason I say that is because Brees has some escapability in his game and can make plays while on the move, where Brady can't. Brady pretty much needs a perfect pocket in order to play his best; when teams can put any kind of pressure on him he isn't nearly as effective. Fortunately for Brady, he has benefitted greatly from having the best offensive line in the game for the last 10+ years.

Yes, Brady has more ringz under his belt than Brees does, but those titles all came when the Patriots defense and not their offense was the real strength of the team.

Besides - I thought the socialized medicine of Europe had eliminated all medical research and only the US with its free market medicine was capable of breaking new ground.

Still sad americans have a little bit of choice left?

Just because they call it kunstfehler doesn't mean it isn't fairly similar...

Apparently it makes it very dis-similar in a very good and very important way.

Damages in medical malpractice cases are awarded on the basis of the Civil Code provision on indemnity for losses suffered.[10] Damages are entirely compensatory; punitive damages are not awarded in Germany.

If Kobe was a baseball player, he'd be Barry Bonds (though not nearly as good).

Count the ringz.

Kobe doesn't have the in-season dominance that Bonds had, but is a borderline Top-10 all-timer, pretty close to Bonds' stature.

Still sad americans have a little bit of choice left?

Yes - I miss the days when a private insurer who only wants to make a profit had the choice of either denying you coverage by fighting your cancer treatments on the grounds of it being a pre-existing condition, or, alternatively - simply applying good, old-fashioned, no-excuses necessary rescission to terminate your policy at the point of annual enrollment.

In 24 months, both of these choices become illegal.... pity that.

Is Brady really unlikeable?

yes

What has he done to make him unlikeable, besides beat your favorite team and have a lifestyle that would make you jealous?

isn't that enough?

I actually know someone who met Brady, and actually worked out with him and Brady's personal QB coach- and have been told by this guy (who is Jets fan) that stunning;y enough Brady seems like a genuine nice guy...

still didn't buy it.

Yes - I miss the days when a private insurer who only wants to make a profit had the choice of either denying you coverage by fighting your cancer treatments on the grounds of it being a pre-existing condition, or, alternatively - simply applying good, old-fashioned, no-excuses necessary rescission to terminate your policy at the point of annual enrollment.

In 24 months, both of these choices become illegal.... pity that.

Pity is you assume private insurance will be available after the full regs are in place, and americans can freely wander the country without insurance, only buying it after they get pregnant or are diagnosed with cancer.

This is going well.

Lance Armstrong deserves a spot on this hatable team.

"there is one similar procedure offered in the US, which they call "regenokine". The website is kind of touchy-feely-holistic "

It isn't that it is "touchy-feely-holistic" or "quackery", it is that based on the site you linked at least, they are using a combination of approaches (the injections, diet, exercise, supplementation), to treat osteoarthritis and low back pain. Nothing wrong with using a combination of approaches, that is actually what should be done for something like LBP, but, how would you tell that it is the injections that is making the LBP go away, and not the exercise and diet which resulted in you losing some fat around your waistline, and also strengthening the low back muscles, along with learning better posture? The stuff the site says about exercise and nutrition is broadly true, sure, but then, how do you tell any improvement is not due to the exercise and nutrition they prescribe?

The site claims that the injection will promote healing of herniated discs. Fine. Does it promote healing above and beyond the normal healing?

But only Phil Kessel is even within a hundred miles of being a "star".

But how close is he in parsecs?

Looks like quackery to me.

I guess when all you can #### is a duck, everything looks like quackery.

Roethlisberger is definitely a cut below the ARod/Kobe class of athletes (and the Steelers are a cut below the Yankees/Lakers class of hated teams). And lumping ARod in with even alleged rapists is kind of harsh.

Personally, I think you'd have a hard time finding two guys with a more similar public perception than ARod and LeBron James. They were both respected players and recognized as being on their way to all-time greatness, until they did the thing that pretty much any person would do and took millions of millions of dollars to do their job in a different city. At which point they became chokers, malcontents, wussies, and general losers.

As for the QBs, I love me some Tom Brady, and I've also enjoyed the accomplishments of Manning, Brees, and Rodgers, but isn't there a bit of an era adjustment to be made? Granted, plenty of teams have crap quarterbacks, but it seems like with so many records falling every few years there has to be something making it easier to put up video game numbers. (Like how the offense in the late '90s and early '00s made it easier to get an OPS+ or ERA+ of 200.) I don't doubt that that foursome is in the same league as Marino, Young and Montana, but ordering them based on basic stats might not be the way to go.

The only caveat I'd add is that you can't call him THE greatest - it's too difficult, IMO, to choose between him and a few others definitively.

Agreed, as long as Favre isn't in the discussion either.

And lumping ARod in with even alleged rapists is kind of harsh.

A-Rod the Centaur makes up at least 1/2 of the distance between citizen and rapist. Right? I mean, it was a friggin' centaur!

Sorry I can't quote it, but #59 is the exact reason that health care reform included and individual mandate. The alternative would be a public program (think Medicare) or accepting that people are going to get sick and die from lack of medical care.

Lance Armstrong deserves a spot on this hatable team.

I don't know he grabbed a European sport and event by the throat and proved he was the best ever after kicking cancer's ass. That has a certain appeal to me, even if (as is likely the case) in real life he is a horrible human being.

What about Deion? Won't somebody please think of Deion?

Not sure who to add from the football and hockey side.

Oglethorp