So the Pirates have two ML-quality players left and now they're trashing one of them. If they keep to a proper schedule, we'll start hearing about McCutchen's lack of hustle around July next year. :-)

Opening Day 2008 lineup:

McLouth -- gone
Sanchez -- gone
Bay -- gone
Adam LaRoche -- gone
Nady -- gone
Doumit -- whaddya know
Bautista -- gone
Wilson -- gone
Snell -- gone

Morgan, Grabow and Marte also made an appearance in that game. You can add Paulino, Gorzelanny and Burnett to the list.

I'm not sure we've seen such a dismantling of a team since Finley and the A's (or maybe Mack and the A's). Yes, they were a crappy team but that's still at least 6 starting quality players and several top bench players and I'm not sure they've received a single impact prospect in return. Even if they've now got the best farm system in baseball (and I haven't seen anybody claim anything like that), they're still at least 3-5 years away from being any good and that's if lots of things break right and the owners are willing to spend some money to fill in gaps.

And their latest starting lineup?

McCutchen 22
Young 27
Jones 28
LaRoche 25
Doumit 28
Milledge 24
Pearce 26
Cruz 25

In overall terms, that's a young lineup (because nobody's over 28) but McCutchen's the only one of those who might be part of the next good Pirates team and Milledge and maybe LaRoche are the only other two you might hope would improve (to be maybe league average).

Worst franchise in baseball.

Huntington really has nowhere to go but up, though it hasn't really been peaches and cream during his short tenure either.

Has Doumit been hurt (again) this year or is it just plain suckitude leading to that .255 OBP?

LaRoche are the only other two you might hope would improve (to be maybe league average).

I remember being called crazy for saying that maybe the Dodgers were right to keep him in AAA during a pennant race because he couldn't hit.. and now the hope is that he will "be maybe league average"

Even if you think that Huntington is following the proper course, and I'm at least half convinced that he is, you have to keep this in mind as one of the costs. It demoralizes the players left behind. Maybe Doumit has been behaving in ways that justify a benching. I could easily see it as something Russell had to do. Pirates' management shouldn't be surprised, or even all that upset, that he has. It would speak ill of his competitive spirit if he didn't.

Well, Doumit's performance has earned him his benching, or it would if they had anybody to play in his place. Don't worry, Pirates fans, Jose Molina Tony Sanchez will save the day soon...

Worst franchise in baseball.

This is the first time I've ever defended the Pirates from that charge, I think, but I'm pretty sure I like their prospects of participating in the 2013 playoffs better than the Royals'.

Even if you think that Huntington is following the proper course, and I'm at least half convinced that he is, you have to keep this in mind as one of the costs. It demoralizes the players left behind. Maybe Doumit has been behaving in ways that justify a benching. I could easily see it as something Russell had to do. Pirates' management shouldn't be surprised, or even all that upset, that he has. It would speak ill of his competitive spirit if he didn't

Agreed. You can't really mock a team for benching a guy if you don't know what was going on.
If Jerry Rice was caught on tape in his prime doing what Brandon Marshall was doing the other day how could you NOT suspend him, no matter how good he was.

This is the first time I've ever defended the Pirates from that charge, I think, but I'm pretty sure I like their prospects of participating in the 2013 playoffs better than the Royals'.

Nah, I've got to take the Royals on that.
They already have an ace and a great closer plus some other good starting pitchers who could still develop. Not just an ace but maybe the best pitcher in baseball right now. Plus I see lots more potential all-stars in the Royals system and on their current team than I do on the Pirates outside of A. McCutchen. The Pirates already have a few solid young starters (Ohlendorf, Maholm, Dook) but none of those guys are aces. And I love Charlie Morton and you've got to like Brad Lincoln but they aren't going to be that either.

Problem is the ace and closer will very likely both be gone before the rest of the talent catches up, and they're saddled with a GM who we know for a fact has no idea how baseball games are won and lost. At least with Huntington there's still some room for doubt.

The thing about the Pirates, is that there are sort of 3 aspects to running an organization:

1) drafting players
2) coaching/training players
3) making trades/FA signings

The Pirates are as far as I can tell, the only organization that is terrible at all three. KC seems to be awful at the draft, but their coaching seems fine (Alex Gordon, who I hesitate to write off as a failure, aside) -- after all, Greinke has turned out nicely, DeJesus, Teahen (swiped as a minor leaguer far from the majors), and before that players like Beltran and so on. Dye became a good player under KC's watch, arguably Soria though that may go under 3). The A's have the worst coaching/training imaginable, but they make good trades and their drafting is fine. But Pittsburgh just seems to be awful at all three somehow.

Also, I would also take them over the Royals, but only because there is more uncertainty since we don't know what Huntington will do, whereas at this point I think it's safe to say that Dayton Moore is not your savior, though I could be wrong.

While I don't think they're Kansas City awful (I agree that K.C.'s worse than Pittsburgh), doncha think Cincinnati belongs in this discussion?

This is the first time I've ever defended the Pirates from that charge, I think, but I'm pretty sure I like their prospects of participating in the 2013 playoffs better than the Royals'.

I am the General Manager of the Pirates... in Out of the Park Baseball. We won the World Series in 2011* and 2014. In 2014, we beat the Royals.

Also... I wish I could remember who recommended that game so strongly to me, because I *really* don't see it.

* In 2009, I was able to trade Eric Hinske, Freddy Sanchez and 8 minor leaguers for Neftali Feliz and Justin Smoak.

solid young starters (Ohlendorf, Maholm, Dook)

Maholm will be 28 and the other two 27 so not exactly "young". And none of them strike out a lot of guys -- Ohlendorf in particular has been a "meh" BIP pitcher.

Problem is the [Royals'] ace and closer will very likely both be gone before the rest of the talent catches up

Greinke is signed through 2012, with $27 M due in the last two years (Meche's money in 2012). Soria is signed through 2011 with options covering 2012-14 (all club options totalling about $22 M) and isn't FA eligible until 2012 anyway. Butler's not FA-eligible until 2013. None of those guys is going anywhere.

Still a tough call as to which franchise is in a worse spot. Of course the A's aren't really looking much rosier.

I remember being called crazy for saying that maybe the Dodgers were right to keep him in AAA during a pennant race because he couldn't hit.. and now the hope is that he will "be maybe league average"

I was never on the LaRoche bandwagon ... but there was definitely a point where the Dodgers should have given him a shot because they had nothing else at 3B. 2007 I suppose when they were trotting out Nomar, Betemit, Hillenbrand, Tony Abreu. None of those guys could hit either (although Betemit had a good year). But I don't remember whether LaRoche was hurt for part of that season too (only 108 games between AAA and the majors).

Teahen (swiped as a minor leaguer far from the majors)

This isn't true. He was in AAA with Oakland, was traded June of 04 and was in the majors for KC in April of 05.

I'm not sure from this thread if Walt Davis and Jason Kendall #6 have a vendetta against Neal Huntington or are just plain stupid. Probably both. But their posts on this thread show a ridiculously complete misunderstanding of the Pirates situation and baseball in general. Why post if you are so clueless?

haven

we are all sooooooo fortunate that you are The One who knows. so please do explain to all us moe ronns all about neal huntington, the geenyuss who just disposed of 90% his baseball team and is busy making his last major leaguer want to leave, and baseball in general so that we might could be helped up the ladder of your brilliance

thank you

Out of bounds, haven, out of bounds. I think I remember Walt even from the old site & pre-registration days, and I've never seen him insult another poster that I can recall (I'm the former Reagan's Colon Surgery, Will AKA RCS, and Malcolm Little, Walt, if you're trying to place me). This is your first post that I've seen, haven, and I want to be able to say the same for you over the next near decade.

To defend haven's point nonetheless, I do actually think that they've only traded replaceable talent, and the kids they added are all more dice rolls for a team that needs them badly (And Tim Alderson was more highly ranked than a dice roll coming into the year: BA called him a decent shot at being a frontline starter). The only thing I've seen them do in the last year or so that really seemed a head scratcher was taking their catcher so high in the rule IV when they could have taken him later, I'd guess. Seems crazy to punt on taking a top talent even in a weaker draft. (Maybe that's the fantasy player in me who abhors overdrafting.) Sure, getting Alderson during a year the best prospects simply weren't available at the deadline even for a Halladay is impressive, but they give back some of those gains with the C pick even if he's tearing it up now. Bad draft value.

5 year plans might only produce more 5 year plans to some, but this wasn't a team that could afford to half step on rebuilding, yet again, and Huntington certainly seems to know what he's doing.

Hey, chick. Good to see more old guards swooping in. Take care of yourself.

The thing about the Pirates, is that there are sort of 3 aspects to running an organization:

1) drafting players
2) coaching/training players
3) making trades/FA signings

The Pirates are as far as I can tell, the only organization that is terrible at all three.

You could say that, but we need to all be aware that by "is terrible" you mean "were terrible from 2000 to 2007".

They're behaving differently now. So we'll see how well it works.

Seriously, why did people give Dayton Moore the benefit of the doubt for two years of behaving exactly the same as the previous regime, but don't seem to even be aware that the Pirates have a new GM, new president, new scouting system and new Dominican academy, even though their current policy of actual rebuilding is quite obviously different from their previous policy of fake rebuilding?

Who went, who came back?

McLouth
Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez

Sanchez
Tim Alderson

Bay
Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen, Bryan Morris, Andy LaRoche

Adam LaRoche
w/$ for Argenis Diaz, Hunter Strickland

Nady
w/Marte for Tabata, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Dan McCutcheon

Bautista
Robinzon Diaz

Wilson
w/Snell & $ for Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeno, Nathan Adcock, Brett Lorin, Aaron Pribanic

Morgan
w/Sean Burnett for Lastings Milledge & Joel Hanrahan

Paulino
Jason Jaramillo

Gorzelanny
w/Grabow for Kevin Hart, Jose Ascanio, Josh Harrison

Seems like these fit into two categories: Acquire high upside guys whose stocks are down (Milledge, Clement, Alderson) and shuffle deck chairs, acquiring cheaper furniture (Hart, Cedeno, Jaramillo). Neither of these are terrible ideas.

Heh. MLBTR just posted the same thing.

Alderson's not really a high-upside guy.

Yeah, K-rate down quite a bit this year.

To defend haven's point nonetheless

you can defend his point, but you can't defend his trolling, his entire schtick is to come onto a thread and intentionally flame something, proving beyond all doubt that the guy is below a Buster Olney level "brain".

Alderson throws 88 on his good nights and strikes out nobody in AA ball. I can't fathom how he's going to be a major league pitcher, to be honest, as fun as he is to watch pitch.