Kris Benson and Anna Benson, overhyped sports power couple of all overhyped sports power couples, have decided that this is it: after 13 years of marriage, it’s divorce time.
Anna gave an interview to Fox News in which she acknowledged she served Kris with divorce papers in March after finding out about his infidelity. Kris, now a money manager, allegedly slept with one of his wife’s friends who he was supposed to be giving financial advice.
“She and Kris are both denying the affair, saying it was just ‘inappropriate talk,’” said Benson. “But I picked up his iPad and and I hit the Facebook button and looked at his inbox messages, and there were all of these sexy messages between them. And you just don’t talk with somebody like that that you’re not having sex with.” ...
Benson, who last pitched for Arizona in 2010, has been inextricably tied to and overshadowed by his bombastic wife throughout his career. (We couldn’t even be bothered to find a photo of him for this post.) In Pittsburgh, she told a magazine that they had had sex in the stadium parking lot, and wanted to try it outside every ballpark in the majors. In New York, she told Howard Stern that if he cheated on her, she’d sleep with all his Mets teammates. (Somewhere, Cliff Floyd wonders what the statute of limitations on that promise was.) And with Benson’s performance never quite living up to expectations, more than one team decided the package deal of Kris and Anna was more trouble than it was worth.
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"Sure, I was snooping, but he's still the bad guy, right?"
If porn has taught me anything, it's that this occurred after Kris advised his wife's friend that she needed to "invest" something of HIS into something of HERS.
He wasn't?
Pretty much, yeah. The evidence she uncovered retroactively justifies her suspicions and behavior.
Anna Benson 1973 Topps card
One of the few things in which the decision is based on the results and not the process.
She has.
Ditto. My first instinct was to look at the submission date and see if this was one of those articles that resurfaces after a couple of years for some random reason.
She was part of a short-lived baseball wives reality show on VH1 if I remember correctly. I was surprised they were still married even then; she seemed like a terrible human being and was never really that attractive to begin with.
I used to feel pretty much the same way, but now I think that they're both about the same wrong, because they both indicate the same betrayal of trust, just manifesting itself in different ways.
The way I'd put it is that someone who's snooping like that deserves to have something to find.
Boobs. Yeah, I know they're fake.
Especially when she sees in her newsfeed: Kris Benson has Changed his Relationship Status from Married to It's Complicated.
I don't understand this statement. Doesn't the character of the manifestation of mistrust matter?
What is she supposed to do, just grin and bear it? She felt she was being lied to (and she was right about it), how is she supposed to verify it?
Why would it?
Why? It's just a symptom of the underlying issues. The rest is just puritanical reflexes that trigger whenever sex is involved.
Get a divorce anyway if she can't trust her husband.
Of course he's a dirtbag for cheating regardless of how he got caught. If you don't want the one you're with, have the stones to end it.
They filed in 2006, but ended up reconciling.
not all betrayals are created equal
Because it's *shocking* that a man who would marry Anna Benson would dip his stick in something on the side.
She practically asked for it.
So if I ogle a hot girl, it's pretty much just as bad as what Tiger Woods was doing.
Have you ever had an adult relationship? This is some weird #### you're peddling.
I'm not saying that people should be happy when their spouses cheat on them, and in fact you'll note that I specifically referred to such behavior as a "betrayal of trust". It's just that I don't think it's appreciably worse than snooping around.
If you're going to call someone a jerk, have the courtesy to read what they actually wrote first.
The funny thing is I can't tell if this is meant as an indictment of Anna, Kris, or both.
What? Someone has to have a really Pollyannaish view of their spouse if they think that they're not even attracted to other people.
Why yes! I've been with my wife for nearly 12 years now. And you know what? She agrees with me!
Course she does. You're less likely to find out she's been cheating on you if you're estopped from snooping.
OK, let me put it differently.
Guy X: Has a one-night stand, was immediately consumed by shame and guilt over it, will never do anything like that as long as he lives. Is only deceitful about this one thing, and would probably admit it and cry like a little baby if pressed by his wife.
Guy Y: Tiger Woodsing it. He has girls in every city. He goes to Vegas and enters a room of dozens of prostitutes and chooses his favorite three for the night. Has constructed entire worlds of lies to support his philandering.
Wife of Guy Y: Perfect innocent woman, in the face of immense circumstantial evidence, reads her husbands email.
All of these people have the same level of sin?
Exactly. If you want to believe that snooping and cheating are identical betrayals of trust (a questionable idea, particularly since the snooping may very well have been prompted by changes in behavior that justified a loss of trust), that's one thing. But the takeaway from the post Biscuit posted is that anyone who feels otherwise is simply motivated by puritanical views on sex. That's the kind of jerkish part.
Well again, you're pretending that I said something I didn't. 'Puritanical' does not mean outdated, it means severely strict, usually wrt morality.
How are they the same? There's nothing wrong with dressing "a certain way", regardless of the comments it draws. But even most people here seem to acknowledge that snooping is wrong, albeit less so depending on results.
Yes. I mean to say, a club that would have Anna Benson as a member can't feign shocked indignation when the behavior at the club gets tawdry.
This is all QFT. People feign moral outrage about extramarital sex because it's a social marker, not because they're morally opposed to extramarital sex. (Most often, they're opposed to *other people's extramarital sex.*)
What else would they be motivated by? Sex is the only issue at stake here!
I'm not really sure how this is debatable. We've kind of decided, as a culture, that sex outside of marriage is the ultimate betrayal of a spouse. Why would that be? Call it something other than puritanical if that word gets you twisted, but what precisely do you see as the motivating force here?
Well, I would say in that case that Guy X has committed one betrayal, while Guy Y has committed many, many betrayals. Kind of like how robbing one bank gets you less jail time than robbing 100 banks.
The wife of Guy Y ... well, I feel bad for her. Given "immense circumstantial evidence" however, I think the proper thing to do would be to confront the husband. If she isn't satisfied with his explanations, then she has to make the decision as to how much this marriage really means to her.
As someone who has at some point both "snooped" and been snooped on (but never cheated or been cheated on, as far as I know), I'm pretty confident in saying the two things are qualitatively different. Snooping is an act of insecurity; yes, it is also a betrayal of trust but that is not its defining characterstic.
Some people have been through such betrayal in the past that they have a hard time trusting anyone, regardless of whether there's a reason or not. Telling someone like that to "get a divorce anyway if you can't trust your husband/wife" is unhelpful; what they need is to work out their own issues, not find a new partner.
Choose more wisely next time.
Well, I think I've made the logical distinction clear. I think it's very obvious that I'm not saying that all victims deserve their fate in all cases, so again I don't see the connection you're drawing to these two very different scenarios.
What's the difference? It's fair to say that most people are "morally strict" when asked if cheating is proper behavior, wouldn't you agree? Would you deny that your stance here is "morally strict"?
Choose more wisely next time.
What? I'll refrain from responding until you explain this comment.
Yes, how silly of American society not to prefer quick and rash divorce to "snooping." Particularly when American society, as expressed through its popular culture, is so reticent and private. It's not as though millions of people won't do literally anything to get noticed by millions of other people or anything.
It's an oblique reference to Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade.
Not necessarily, unless you've already decided what motivates everyone else (which, you kind of did).
A spouse may very well feel betrayed not because the husband was out banging someone else, but that he sought out someone else outside the marraige to create a relationship with. In fact, one can feel betrayed if a relationship such as this is created without the sexual consummation.
True. The problem isn't so much sexual puritanism so much as the idiotic notion that pervades American relationships that one person is going to be the end-all, be-all for everyone, for eternity, forever and ever, amen. The whole "soul mates" thing needs to be skewered like the sacred side of beef that it is.
The parameters of this discussion are pretty clear, aren't they?
The case we're talking about deals specifically with sexual infidelity, doesn't it?
I mean, people will get upset when their spouses do all kinds of things. But in this case, we're talking sexual infidelity.
So since I've now clarified what I meant, you can stop acting like I meant something different.
But you're the one that determined it was the sex, and the sex only, that was the betrayal. And that the level of betrayal felt by the spouse (any spouse in that situation) is motivated purely by puritanical views on sex.
As for this specific case, regardless what we may think of Anna (or athlete marriages), she made her feelings very clearly known on the subject of Kris and infidelity long ago. Therefore, Kris knew where she stood on the behavior he was undertaking and ignored it. Conversely, we don't know a damn thing on how Kris felt about her looking at his Facebook messages (for instance, if my wife wants to snoop on my online activity, I wouldn't feel particularly betrayed).
If you really feel there's no difference between snooping and cheating, knock yourself out. It's the idea you've been pushing that no one else can make such a distinction without having "strict" (whatever that means) views on sex that is off base.
No, I didn't.
In fairness, Kris is probably also upset that she was snooping in his Facebook account, since it got him caught.
Just want to say that I fully agree with this.
I broadly agree with this, but it's a simple fact that most people are going to lock into the prevailing theory and skirt the edges - just like Mommy and Daddy before them, and Grandma and Grandpa before them - rather than make a staunch stand outside of conventional mores.
You are using words that give off different impressions than what you mean and when questioned you are claiming the parameters of what you said are clear…there not.
Tell that to the guy who posted "Sex is the only issue at stake here!"
Seriously, I can't even follow what you're trying to argue here any longer. I think you overstated things above and haven't been able to extricate yourself from it.
And tethered "puritanical reflexes" to sex, and sex alone.
Whether by failure of implication or inference your point is not clear to me. Based on past statements it seems clear there was not a mutual assent to extramarital sex.
You acknowledge it is a betrayal of trust (just like snooping is), but categorize hurt feelings of that breach of trust as arising from a puritanical viewpoint. What is unpuritanical (or qualitatively different) about being angry that your spouse is snooping on you?
I would argue most people who cheat don't want their partner to cheat on them, they just want to cheat themselves.
So basically it comes down to being a grown up and denying that your urges come first to the exclusion of everybody else's. I know people who are in genuinely non-monogamous relationships and more power to them. They can deal with the occasional situation where the other half is getting laid and they aren't. I think most people can't.
In the Benson case. You know, the one where Anna specifically said that the sex was the problem. She didn't say that "I don't really even care whether they had sex or not, just the fact that they seemed close really bothered me." No, she said, "you just don’t talk with somebody like that that you’re not having sex with.”
All right, I'll try again:
If I found out that my wife had been hacking into my email/facebook/whatever account to snoop around on me, that would bother me as much as if I found out that she cheated on me. Yes, I understand that many people disagree, but talking about disagreements is a major reason that people discuss things.
Furthermore, yes, I think that people typically have more drastic reactions to sexual misconduct than other forms of misconduct, and I think a major reason for this is a reflexive aversion to sexual misbehavior in general [NOTE: I edited the previous sentence after posting for clarity]. Yes, it's true that people can also get upset when their spouses have what they see as inappropriate non-sexual relationships, although in these cases I think it's fair to generalize that sexual consummation would be seen as even worse than the non-sexual relationship.
Now, a lot of people have objected to the word "puritanical", which I suppose is fair enough (disagreements happen, after all!), but then again, no one has offered an alternate explanation for why they disagree with my basic stance on the situation. So I ask again, why does sexual infidelity bother people more than other forms of misbehavior? Why would it bother you more, SoSH, if your wife cheated than it would if she snooped through your online activity?
You guys are acting like I'm crazy for not seeing these answers as self-evident in order to avoid answering those questions, but no one's willing to offer up any explanation for their views. Even if they are self-evident, though, why do so many people feel that way? What plausible explanation is there other than a reflexive aversion to sexual misbehavior?
Well, I will go on record as to saying that you're nuts.
In all honesty I don't know if I've ever considered it. It does seem self-evident to me.
First, I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that you and your wife are free to see snooping and cheating as identical betrayals. If that's how you view things, bully for you.
But others don't, for any number of reasons that may or may not be simply a "reflexive aversion to sexual behavior." I've already given you one.
Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, snooping should not simply be seen as a betrayal of trust, but a manifestation of insecurity. ANd while it's possible cheating can be the result of that, I don't think that's the default assumption.
As for me, all I can tell you is that snooping doesn't bother me. If my wife wants to look at what I've been up to online, I simply won't feel betrayed. I don't know if that answer will satisfy you, but that's what I've got.
And that's the heart of my objection here Brian. You've taken your position (that sexual betrayal is equal to other types) and, decided (paraphrasing here) that is is the only logical position unless one happens to have hangups about sex. I think that's quite the overreach.
Cheating is much more defensible if one partner has been unreasonably refusing intimacy over a period of time. ("Intimacy" being a weasel word meant to cover a wide range of stuff, particular to the individuals in the couple.) Snooping is much more defensible if one partner has reason to think the other has been cheating.
In the case of Anna and Kris Benson, we have good evidence that Anna's suspicions were reasonable, and no evidence that Kris had reasonable cause for cheating.
Sexual jealousy, particularly within marriage, has been legitimized by high literature and art in Western culture -- and thus seen as something fundamental to the psyche of Western men and women -- for centuries before the Puritans.(*) Identifying its patrimony as Puritan bordered on illiterate.
(*) Othello, Medea, et seq.
I'll bite. In the case of a marriage, the vows themselves are a promise of fidelity. It is a traditional pillar of Judeo-Christian marriage. Facebook snooping based on justifiable suspicion, on the other hand, not so much.
Yeah. This is what marriage is, right? I remember hearing that Nietzsche defined it as a contract of ownership of each other's genitals.
OK! Now we're getting somewhere - you consider something as self-evident despite not having given it any thought. Sure sounds "reflexive" to me. At least you're being honest about it.
Maybe so, but at least I've tried to explain my stance, instead of resorting to "just so". It's hard to dodge accusations of being reactionary when that's all you've got, isn't it?
Wow, this is fascinatingly irrelevant to anything under discussion here. The objections to my use of the word "puritanical" were historically based? Sure thing.
And to think, you asked me if *I* had had an adult relationship. If I had known that this was what you meant, I'd have answered "no".
Because to a lot people it is the most intimate action of a relationship, maybe not everyone but a heck of a lot of people.
I shared a room with three brothers growing up, privacy was never that big with me. In fact when I want to keep something to myself I flat out state that is what I want to do. Would I be bothered by people poking around after I stated that? Maybe if it was personal enough I might, might consider it a betrayal but that circumstance has never presented itself so I guess I don't even know if that is true. There is not a piece of my life that I would not share with pretty much anyone who I trusted with the information. But I consider my sexual relationship with my wife very personal and intimate and between me and her.
#1 We are talking about a ballplayer and his ex-stripper wife who is known to be a bit of a publicity whore so that fact that someone was caught cheating on someone in this relationship isn't surprising at all. The more surprising part is that there was no sex video released during the so called "heyday" of their publicity.
#2 We are also living in an age when it doesn't take much to find websites that advertise finding partners outside your marriage.
It's entirely relevant. You asked about the sources of sexual jealousy and they were provided. They have nothing to do with puritanism -- large or small p -- and they aren't "reflexes."
Biologically, men don't want to spend money on other men's kids and if their wife's ####### someone else they can't be certain they aren't. Women don't want men wasting time and effort and resources on some other ##### instead of on her kids.
You're right, it is "reflexive." That doesn't necessarily imply that it's wrong, or illogical, or anything like that.
Oh, I just mentioned that Nietzsche idea because I think it's funny. It's obviously not just a genital ownership contract. But it does highlight an important part of marriage.
This just begs the question, though, of why they feel that way. Merely restating the question isn't really an answer.
I don't even think it's a matter of privacy for me - believe it or not, I'm not fooling around behind my wife's back using even the strictest, most Puritanical sense of the term. In fact, it's partly *because* I feel like I've demonstrated a sufficient level of trust that I don't feel like I deserve to be spied upon. And naturally, I try to treat my wife the way I want her to treat me.
Mostly, though, I simply think that healthy relationships are built on mutual trust. Suspicion and jealousy are anathema to that and just make people miserable. I think this is uncontroversial, but then again, people keep telling me that showing a lack of trust is no big deal. So who knows.
Fair enough, and this is the nature of the disagreement. And again, at least you're honest about the dynamic here, and not getting all defensive about it. Speaking of which...
"Biological" reactions are pretty much "reflexes" by definition. Deal with it.
In this thread?
Popular evolutionary psychology remains mostly a ######## dump for people who don't understand either science or philosophy, but who want to ground their personal feelings about the world in something they can pretend is fact.
Yes, many have argued that snooping - which, warranted or not, is a manifest lack of trust - is no big deal.
A few thoughts:
1) You act as though everyone views sexual infidelity as the ultimate betrayal, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. I'm not sure I'd be less angry to find out that my wife had been spending her evenings reading romantic poetry in the arms of another man than I would be to find out that she'd had a drunken one night stand. The problem in both cases is the dishonesty, betrayal of trust, and sharing an intimacy with another person that is supposed to be reserved for one's spouse. (Those would both be pretty tough to recover from.)
2) Part of the reason why sexual infidelity bothers us is precisely because we all know it does. If I know that having sex with another woman is going to irreparably damage my marriage, and I do it anyway, that is a sign of total disregard for my wife's feelings and our marriage.
3) A lot of people view sex as an escalation of a relationship (even though it doesn't always work that way). And, as in #2, once we all know it's viewed that way, having sex takes on a certain significance. And sex is an easy bright line--if I have dinner with a female coworker one evening, there might be ambiguity about my intentions, but if I sleep with her, there's not really any ambiguity left.
Except that the "reflex" isn't always present and some people reason or deliberate their way out of it, or never have it in the first place.
Sexual jealously simply isn't the product of "puritanical reflexes" or puritanical anything.
Deal with it.
What does this even mean?
Given that Kris Benson not only was cheating, but was doing so through Facebook, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that he wasn't being worthy of his partner's trust.
There are various ev-psych hypotheses which can't really be tested. The Sex at Dawn hypothesis is just as much a ######## dump as your "American 20th century sexual mores are a function of biology" hypothesis, but the Sex at Dawn hypothesis has as much evidentiary backing as any other, which shows that we don't actually know what sorts of relationships humans evolved to have.
No, I'm saying that it seems clearly the case in the Benson case that led to this discussion, and it seems pretty uncontroversially true in general terms.
But to me the question is, would you be angrier to find out that she had been "spending her evenings reading romantic poetry in the arms of another man", or "spending her evenings reading romantic poetry in the arms of another man and having sex with him"?
I'm sure that there are people out there for whom the sex would be inconsequential in that case, but I don't think I'm wildly off base to say that those people are rare.
I don't know if it's been argued in this thread, but picking up an iPad sitting around the apartment, hitting a Facebook icon, and then an email icon really isn't that big a deal. It's not nothing, but it isn't remotely comparable to banging another woman.
Well, you've got me there - I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that people who don't have those reflexes, or who reason their way out of them, aren't reacting reflexively. GOOD POINT!
I've suggested no such thing. That was a throwaway line that I don't give a #### about. There's probably a biological/evolutionary source of sexual jealousy.
What is entirely true is what was written in 78.
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