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Wednesday, July 25, 2012

LA Times: Dodgers acquire Hanley Ramirez in stunning deal with Marlins

The Dodgers made one of the most significant and stunning trades in the history of their franchise late Tuesday, acquiring three-time All-Star Hanley Ramirez from the Miami Marlins, according to a person familiar with the situation who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the deal hasn’t been formally announced.

In exchange for Ramirez and left-handed reliever Randy Choate, the Dodgers sent rookie starting pitcher Nathan Eovaldi and minor league pitcher Scott McGough to the Marlins.

Well, it’s hardly Piazza and Zeile for Sheffield, Bonilla, and Johnson in terms of significance.  But it is stunning.

Dan Lee prefers good shortstops to great paintings Posted: July 25, 2012 at 05:41 AM | 67 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, hanley ramirez, marlins, nathan eovaldi, randy choate, scott mcgough, trades

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   1. Swedish Chef Posted: July 25, 2012 at 06:09 AM (#4191599)
They should have thrown in Heath Bell too, as a complimentary snack.
   2. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 06:43 AM (#4191602)
I feel like if I were the editor of a business textbook, I would be furiously adding passages about this deal so I could get it out in time for the fall semester.
   3. boteman digs the circuit clout Posted: July 25, 2012 at 06:46 AM (#4191603)
Rest assured, the Marlins are nowhere near done with their fire sale right-sizing. There are murmurs that even Josh Johnson might be on the block.

Just keep repeating to yourself: they are not dumping salary, they are putting the best team on the field in order to win.

And #1 might be the only time that "Heath Bell" and "snack" have appeared in the same sentence when the former wasn't devouring the latter.
   4. Bowling Baseball Fan Posted: July 25, 2012 at 06:52 AM (#4191606)
How many firesales can one franchise have? jeesh....
   5. Brian White Posted: July 25, 2012 at 06:53 AM (#4191608)
Can anyone comment on the pitchers the Dodgers sent? I suppose this makes sense for the Marlins if you believe the Hanley's 140 OPS+ days are behind him, and that he's going to continue to be the somewhat unspectacular player he's been over the last year and a half. Not sure if I buy that argument, though.
   6. boteman digs the circuit clout Posted: July 25, 2012 at 06:54 AM (#4191609)
This just in - @JonHeymanCBS: ok, if someone wants to write a book on the #marlins season, u can have my title, free of charge: From Fidel to Fire Sale

also:

@JonHeymanCBS: breaking. sources: #marlins do intend to keep new stadium.

With the Marlins the jokes write themselves.
   7. Dan Lee prefers good shortstops to great paintings Posted: July 25, 2012 at 07:02 AM (#4191610)
I'm not sure what to make of Eovaldi. He throws in the mid 90s but doesn't strike guys out, is a groundballer but gives up a #### ton of line drives, and walks more guys than he really should.

As for McGough? He's done it again.
   8. formerly dp Posted: July 25, 2012 at 07:19 AM (#4191614)
The Turner deal seems like one that will be paying dividends for a while-- it looks like they bought really low on him. I'm surprised they couldn't get more for Hanley, but maybe I'm undervaluing the pitching going their way.
   9. PS is probably going to survive his vacation Posted: July 25, 2012 at 07:20 AM (#4191616)
Despite all their efforts, no teams are accepting of the CF statue as a throw-in.
   10. TerpNats Posted: July 25, 2012 at 07:32 AM (#4191620)
With the Marlins the jokes write themselves.
One eagerly awaits them to wear uniforms reading "MARLNS."
   11. BDC Posted: July 25, 2012 at 07:37 AM (#4191625)
So what does this make Carlos Lee? Something like "the temporary crappy shelving you set up while stripping the place to the walls during the fire sale," evidently …
   12. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 25, 2012 at 07:47 AM (#4191628)
I believe Carlos Lee was acquired so he could be combined with Josh Johnson and traded for Jon Jay and Daniel Descalso.
   13. bob gee Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:20 AM (#4191635)
what a joke. if bud selig believed in the best interests of baseball, the owners would be out of there.

i also wish it would serve as a template for cities NOT to give in to the hostage-taking attitude of owners when 'we need a new stadium so we can put a competitive team on the field!'. however, i know it won't.

ok, back to the jokes. they're funnier and more deserving for these (***** fill in the stars with your choice of word)
   14. just plain joe Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:24 AM (#4191636)
How many firesales can one franchise have? jeesh....



Check out the history of A's, Philadelphia.
   15. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:24 AM (#4191637)
Despite all their efforts, no teams are accepting of the CF statue as a throw-in.


Apparently they tried to deal it to the Cubs but Theo took one look and said "sorry, Soriano is no longer available."
   16. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:32 AM (#4191641)
Can Hanley or Jhonny Peralta play 2B? If yes, why did Dombrowski settle for Infante?
   17. The District Attorney Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:34 AM (#4191643)
TFA:
With Dee Gordon on the disabled list, Ramirez figures to return to shortstop. When Gordon returns, Ramirez could move to third base -- or not.
   18. Dan Lee prefers good shortstops to great paintings Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:36 AM (#4191645)
Can Hanley or Jhonny Peralta play 2B?
Peralta has never played second, but in fairness, he can't play shortstop and he's made nearly 1,000 MLB appearances there.
   19. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:40 AM (#4191647)
Can Hanley or Jhonny Peralta play 2B?

No.
   20. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:47 AM (#4191654)
Well, good thing the Marlins owners paid for that stadium with private funds.
   21. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:48 AM (#4191655)
Jeff Loria makes me ashamed to be a baseball fan.
   22. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:50 AM (#4191657)
Hanley Ramirez WAR 2011-2012: 0.4 in 184 games

If Hanley has actually regressed as a player down to pretty much nothing, then this was a very nice little salary dump by the Marlins. If Hanley's back has left him less than a shell of the superstar he was in his early 20s, then well done Florida Marlins GM whoever you are because I just remembered you aren't Larry Beinfest. googling... Michael Hill. Conditionally well done, Michael Hill.

It's one hell of a risk, though. The Hanley Ramirez of 2006-2010 is very much underpaid at $15M per season through 2014, and the Marlins got back a pretty much nominal return. Eovaldi has some upside, but he only squeaked into the top 100 last year, and his stuff and numbers strongly suggest he's headed for the bullpen. The Dodgers might have gotten themselves a star at below market price for a bullpen prospect.

It really all rests on Hanley Ramirez. Hanley's minor league career always suggested to me that he has a serious effort problem. His defensive decline in the majors suggested this as well. (So did all the stories from the Marlins clubhouse about his lack of effort.) I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hanley's drive and conditioning have been mostly lacking in Florida, and a change of scenery might get him motivated for a few years. In that case, it'd be a hard trade to judge on both ends, since Hanley in Florida might be much less valuable than the Hanley who comes to LA.
   23. BourbonSamurai Is a Lazy Nogoodnik Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:57 AM (#4191663)
Are the Dodgers paying the full freight? This doesn't seem like much in the way of prospects, but I admit I haven't paid a lot of attention to Hanley recently
   24. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: July 25, 2012 at 08:58 AM (#4191664)
Your move, Giants!
   25. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:01 AM (#4191667)
Are the Dodgers paying the full freight?
Yes.
   26. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:08 AM (#4191675)
Your move, Giants!

Carlos Zambrano, Ricky Nolasco, Josh Johnson, John Buck, Mark Buehrle, Heath Bell, and Jose Reyes are available.
   27. Dan Lee prefers good shortstops to great paintings Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:09 AM (#4191678)
As is Alfonso Soriano, I hear.
   28. BourbonSamurai Is a Lazy Nogoodnik Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:21 AM (#4191685)
When will Ozzie Guillen be traded?
   29. JJ1986 Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:21 AM (#4191686)
Carlos Zambrano, Ricky Nolasco, Josh Johnson, John Buck, Mark Buehrle, Heath Bell, and Jose Reyes are available.


I think Buehrle, for some reason, is not. I'm not sure why they'd rather keep him than Johnson.
   30. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4191690)
"Stunning"? Drama queen alert!
   31. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:51 AM (#4191711)
So what does this make Carlos Lee?


Aren't the Astros paying a massive amount of his contract? If so, there's your answer: another cheap player.
   32. Shredder Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4191717)
As for McGough? He's done it again.
Man, cartoons were really racist back then.
   33. Boxkutter Posted: July 25, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4191719)
When will Ozzie Guillen be traded?


I think teams would rather take the CF statue. Maybe even the JoePa statue.
   34. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:01 AM (#4191724)
There's a trade idea! The home run sculpture for the JoePa statue! You thought Jacob Turner was a case of buying low, well, here's a real opportunity.
   35. billyshears Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4191736)
I'm mostly of the opinion that Hanley Ramirez is done as a superstar, but I'm also of the opinion that he has to be worth more than a decent pitching prospect and another guy I've never heard of. I mean, I would have been highly in favor of the Mets trading Jeurys Familia and Jefry Marte for Ramirez.
   36. tshipman Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4191738)
Your move, Giants!


What are the chances that Reyes is available at a discount?
   37. Charles S. will not yield to this monkey court Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:15 AM (#4191740)
MCoA [Edit: and Billyshears] seems to be the only one who has noticed that Hanley Ramirez is not very good at baseball anymore. Of course that can change, but if the Dodgers are paying his entire contract through 2014, I don't see this as anything more than new ownership trying to make a splash.
   38. phredbird Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4191762)
this is a good trade, and i'm not just saying that because i'm stoked about this year's upcoming LAD-NYY WS.

\nutbag post\
   39. Guapo Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4191764)
*strums guitar*

I remember when the Dodgers acquired Manny Ramirez
Now they've gone and traded for Hanley Ramirez

*strums guitar*

[if you're enjoying this song, feel free to paypal me your spare change]
   40. Esoteric Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4191769)
MCoA and billyshears are surely not the only ones who have noticed that Hanley is no longer very good at baseball. I noticed. I think everyone who follows an NL East team closely has noticed over the past few years.

What I think a lot of people are relying upon as an unstated assumption, however, is that Hanley's problems are largely psychological rather than physical. I think there's a certain degree of plausibility to this, actually, but I don't think it reflects well on Hanley. Ramirez has (by all accounts justifiably) acquired an extremely toxic reputation over the past several years as a loafing, self-entitled 'clubhouse cancer'-type of player. IIRC, he's basically the reason Fredi Gonzalez is now managing the Atlanta Braves instead of the Marlins. Given that he's still relatively young and his decline doesn't seem to be driven by any injury issues, it wouldn't shock me at all if Ramirez were to suddenly put up better numbers with the change of scenery to Los Angeles. But of course that just poses the question of what will happen if/when Hanley decides he's not getting sufficient respect and love in L.A., either.

Man, I can't wait for Simers to sink his teeth into him. I know you all hate Simers with a passion, but I don't, and let's be honest here: his schtick was basically designed to puncture the egos of people like Hanley Ramirez. This could be glorious, people.
   41. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4191770)
I can understand the Marlins wanting Nathan Eovaldi and Scott McGough, but if they are in fire sale mode, why the hell did they want 36 year old Randy Choate?
   42. Esoteric Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4191775)
I can understand the Marlins wanting Nathan Eovaldi and Scott McGough, but if they are in fire sale mode, why the hell did they want 36 year old Randy Choate?
Maybe Jeffrey Loria is an alum of the Choate School with a fondness for indirect nostalgia?

Seriously though, while the Infante/Sanchez trade wasn't a standard Marlins-style salary dump (since the Marlins got back a very good prospect), this Hanley move screams "get him out of here, for a sack of baseballs if necessary."
   43. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4191778)
I can understand the Marlins wanting Nathan Eovaldi and Scott McGough, but if they are in fire sale mode, why the hell did they want 36 year old Randy Choate?
They didn't, Choate is going to LA
   44. formerly dp Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:06 AM (#4191789)
I mean, I would have been highly in favor of the Mets trading Jeurys Familia and Jefry Marte for Ramirez.


And playing him where? They have Wright at 3B and Tejada at SS. Moving him to LF would be an option, but he probably wouldn't go for it. I agree with the sentiment, but I just don't see the particulars of this situation making much sense.

Remember when people thought Hanley for Wright was a good idea? February seems like a distant planet at this point...
   45. The District Attorney Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:13 AM (#4191797)
And playing him where? They have Wright at 3B and Tejada at SS. Moving him to LF would be an option, but he probably wouldn't go for it.
CF, I suppose. Apparently he did tell Mattingly he'd "play anywhere." Obviously you'd want to find out if he actually meant that before acquiring him.

Ultimately, as everyone pretty much has said, it all depends on how much Hanley's recent underachieving is due to being unhappy in Miami. Although it's true that it doesn't speak well of him as a person if he wasn't trying his best for the Marlins, I dunno if that much matters if you're the team getting him and reaping the rewards. (I suppose you could argue that if he quit on Miami, he'll quit on you, but, seriously. Miami is a crappy situation.)

Remember when people thought Hanley for Wright was a good idea?
Remember when they thought Bourjos for Wright would be a steal for the Mets?
   46. Mark S. is bored Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4191808)
I can understand the Marlins wanting Nathan Eovaldi and Scott McGough, but if they are in fire sale mode, why the hell did they want 36 year old Randy Choate?


They didn't, Choate is going to LA
Got it. I have reading comprehension problems apparently.
   47. cardsfanboy Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4191815)
Jeff Loria makes me ashamed to be a baseball fan.


Jeff Loria makes me ashamed I'm the same species.
   48. President of the David Eckstein Fan Club Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4191820)
A's almost got Hanley

A's turned down a deal for two minor leaguers where the Marlins would pick up half the salary. Wonder if it was the minor leaguers, the cost or Hanley's negative reputation that did it in (or maybe Beane simply didn't think Hanley was good enough any more).
   49. formerly dp Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4191829)
CF, I suppose. Apparently he did tell Mattingly he'd "play anywhere." Obviously you'd want to find out if he actually meant that before acquiring him.


Counting on him to handle CF seems like a big gamble. One probably worth taking, considering how bad the OF is right now, but if he sucks there, it's a drain on the pitching staff.

Remember when they thought Bourjos for Wright would be a steal for the Mets?


I think I missed that one, or blocked it from my memory.
   50. SoSH U at work Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4191832)
Although it's true that it doesn't speak well of him as a person if he wasn't trying his best for the Marlins, I dunno if that much matters if you're the team getting him and reaping the rewards.


At the same time, if there's reason to think Hanley's never going to turn it around in Miami, then the Marlins did a good job dumping his salary on someone else.

This is one reason why I never spent a lot of time fretting over what the Sox lost in Ramirez. I've never been certain that Hanley would have developed into the player he became if he'd been left in Boston. Mercurial chap.



   51. Perro(s) Posted: July 25, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4191853)
A's turned down a deal for two minor leaguers where the Marlins would pick up half the salary. Wonder if it was the minor leaguers, the cost or Hanley's negative reputation that did it in (or maybe Beane simply didn't think Hanley was good enough any more).


Beane was distracted preparing for his fantasy football draft.
   52. zack Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4191865)
Hanley had a season-ending shoulder injury last year. It seems weird to me that everyone is ignoring this in favor of "he doesn't care".

Yes, his decline seems to precede the injury, but he also seemed to be heating up when he got hurt. His batting lines don't look like a guy not trying, to me, they look like a guy who lost bat speed.
   53. zonk Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4191873)
This kind of reminds me of the Cubs Nomar trade of 7-8 years ago --

'Stunning' in the sense of a one-time (and certain quarters thinking "may be again") superstar getting shipped out, a largely 'meh' return going the other way -- but under the covers, the trade not likely to mean much to anyone once time settles the dust.

EDIT: Yeah, I know that was technically a 3-teamer... but all above still pretty much stands.
   54. base ball chick Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4191902)
the astros are paying all but 200K of the 8 mill that was left on carlos lee's salary.

they paid ALL of lyon/happ's salary

they paid ALL of brett myers salary

they paid ALL of wandy rodriguez' next year's salary.

no i am not kidding - and they didn't get anyone who is a top prospect.

yet the marlins get the dodgers to take most of hanbley ramirez salary.

astros are gonna have a payroll under 20 mill next year
   55. Swedish Chef Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4191910)
yet the marlins get the dodgers to take most of hanbley ramirez salary.

Everybody knows it's useless and potentially dangerous to ask the Marlins for money.
   56. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4191913)
If there was any doubt Colletti needs to go, this should quash those.
   57. robinred Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4191920)
let's be honest here: his schtick was basically designed to puncture the egos of people like Hanley Ramirez.


Nah. I think it was basically designed to get him some eyeballs in the digital age and because he's too lazy (or not smart enough) to come up with creative column ideas. Like I said in the last Simers thread, it seems pretty likely from his career timeline and history that that is what happened. Simers covered the Chargers here in SD back in the day and was just another guy; I remember reading him. The current Simers is almost certainly the result of getting a column and of the digital media culture. Being widely disliked is better than being generally ignored.

But yes, I am sure that he will go after Ramirez immediately, and will start off with a reference to the surname and by asking Ramirez some Simersish questions about Fredi Gonzalez and about his (Ramirez's) injury history.

I like the Marlins dumping guys in the first year of the new stadium. The Padres actually started doing that right PETCO was approved and before they had even began construction.
   58. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: July 25, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4191923)
On 54:

Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Next year, they won't pay much salary!
I'm angry!
   59. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4191928)
Josh Johnson is better than Ryan Dempster, Frank.
   60. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4191964)
   61. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4191967)
If there was any doubt Colletti needs to go, this should quash those.

Not seeing it.
   62. phredbird Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4191973)
Man, I can't wait for Simers to sink his teeth into him.


don't get me all hot and bothered.
   63. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: July 25, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4191985)
So I guess that means the A's are going after Escobar?
   64. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: July 25, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4192168)
[61] Not seeing how this deal is completely idiotic on Colletti's part? Given Hanley's recent play, there no way anybody would give him a 2 year $31 mil contract if he were a free agent. Colletti gave up BA's #96 prospect who had pitched servicably in the majors to acquire a bad contract. Given the Dodgers current position and needs, I could understand overpaying Hanley the next two years to address the current black hole at short stop. But to give up a quality player in exchange for that?
   65. Steve Treder Posted: July 25, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4192197)
Not seeing how this deal is completely idiotic on Colletti's part?

Hyperbolize much?
   66. cardsfanboy Posted: July 25, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4192199)
On 54:

Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Why are the Astros are paying all this salary!
Next year, they won't pay much salary!
I'm angry!


I thought the point was that they are paying all that salary and because they are paying all that salary aren't going to have money for the payroll next year so their payroll of players on the roster is going to be nothing (while their actual outgoing payroll is going to be fairly high)

A fairly salient point, although I'm not sure I agree about them getting nothing in return. There was no way they were going to get an A+ prospect but they did get a lot of B+ talent.
   67. Walt Davis Posted: July 25, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4192227)
The Nomar trade comp is a good one.

As to Hanley, I don't expect him to return to stud status ... but I'll admit that I thought he was an average 3B these days. And here we've got another fWAR-bWAR disagreement although it's not just defense. As noted above, over the last 2 seasons (just 780 PA), bWAR puts him at .4 WAR ... but fangraphs puts him at 2.7 WAR. Fangraphs has him as a slightly above-average 3B overall, bWAR puts him at replacement level. This is not good.

A big chunk is defense -- bWAR at -23, fWAR at -10. But bWAR also gives him -2 Rbat while fWAR puts him at +3. They seem to also be using different playing time adjustments -- 22 Rrep from bWAR vs. 26 from fWAR.

Can we please get these to at least agree on average and playing time adjustments?

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