User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats
|
AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets. |
For wholesale prices on baseball gifts and equipment, check these stores out! |
Page rendered in 0.6040 seconds
53 querie(s) executed
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. Justin T is expanding the aperture of awareness Posted: July 12, 2006 at 06:42 AM (#2096496)No, because Mota went to FLA in the deal.
(He says that Tracy started to overuse Gagne as a result)
Oh, dear God, three innings? I'm amazed he's still alive!
The next game the Dodgers played, Gagne DID give up two runs to the Pirates... some relievers might consider that worse than death :P
(actually, he threw almost as many pitches in one inning - 29 - as he did the game before in three - 37)
For the record, Gagne's pitch count that week was 37/NG/29/14/0/29/3
He should be noted that Gagne threw exactly 82 1/3 innings the previous two seasons.
And of course, the Dodgers are in a nice position to contend even this year, currently leading the Wild Card race. Let's take a look at the 2006 performances of the players impacted by the trade (assuming they wouldn't have resigned Encarnacion):
Players the Dodgers lost:
Lo Duca - 2006 VORP: 10.5
Mota - 2006 VORP: -1.0
And, if we accept Plaschke's contention that the trade destroyed Gagne - let's take half of his average VORP from 2002 to 2004: 16.2
That's a total VORP of 25.7.
Players the Dodgers gained:
Penny - 2006 VORP: 41.5
I mean, for God's sake (capitalized for you, Gagne_55), the Dodgers traded a freaking banjo-hitting catcher and a setup man who's no longer active for the guy who just started the all-star game! And he's still saying it was a bad trade? Because it made Gagne get hurt? Even if it had, and it's obvious that it didn't, since it didn't make him pitch any more innings than he had in the previous two seasons, IT STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD TRADE. LoDuca and Gagne for Penny would have been a win for the Dodgers, because 200 innings of 110 ERA+ is much more valuable than 80 innings of whatever Gagne's ERA+ was. LoDuca and Mota are total ciphers.
Well, that would explain all the doodles reading "Mrs. Bill Lo Duca" on the cover of his notebook...
Hey, and this coming from a guy who wasn't a fan of DePo [ I hold the Hee Seop Choi, Jose Valentin, Jason Phillips, Jason Repko/Werth card against him when it comes to roster construction] but this is garbage. Absolute Bull. You know, there is alot of terrible sports writing out there. And I'm not even joking around, I'm dead serious. I mean... one could make an argument that the field is just awful, mired in absolute dreck. For every Gammons or Verducci, there seems to be ten Lupicas and Plaschkes. At least it seems that way, because I hate them so much. De Po will get another chance and stick it to his harshest critic at some point, because while Karma can be cruel, it can also be cool.
As I mentioned briefly in the ASG chatter, there is a problem with using Penny's start in the 2006 ASG as an example either way for the LoDuca trade - the Dodgers only traded for Penny's rights through 2005.
They resigned him early last year to a multiyear extension, after he threatened to test free agency if he wasn't reupped by mid-season. Now if you want to use the ASG start to illustrate the wisdom of the extension...
As if Gagne didn't have an injury history before (ie Tommy John). I'm sure that Plascke can blame it on DePo (cause he did), but he can't have it both ways.
That's not really true. He stated that he would like to remain in LA and the Dodgers had two free agents to be in weaver and penny. Depo had to make a choice because it was doubtful he could have kept both. I guess he made the right choice.
You've got that paragraph all set up as a macro in case the Yankees end up trading prospects for a FA-to-be before the deadline, I take it :)
I have family members that have repeated his BS to me hook line and sinker, so yes, I do think he is popular for the uniformed. Not that my family members will read this board, but they were the type that thought that DePo should have resigned guys like Lima just because the Dodgers won a playoff game with him.
Well, I live in Southern California and I hate his soul.
Minor point either way, but I knew I had the 'sign me by midseason' kicking around my memory banks from somewhere, and I found it:
<a href="http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050529&c>MLB.com from May 2005</a>
He gave up some cash, and the Dodgers assumed some risk, given his health issues in the then-recent past.
The Alyssa Milano factor?
They resigned him early last year to a multiyear extension, after he threatened to test free agency if he wasn't reupped by mid-season. Now if you want to use the ASG start to illustrate the wisdom of the extension...
The Dodgers also got exclusive negotiation rights, and worked them, so they did trade for more than just that.
It's not a small factor. the team trading for a player signs that guy a lot. I don't think it was as "unknown" where Penny would be.
BURN!!!
</Kelso>
You'd think LA would have more sports championships based on this factor alone...
You saying our soldiers and police are ignorant enough to buy Plaschke's schtick?
Not to mention that the Dodgers got Hee Seop Choi, who should've provided a lot more value to the team than he did (thank you, Jim Tracy). Even if Choi wasn't a potential star, he deserved better than to get benched against righthanders in favor of Jason Freaking Phillips.
I never read the guy, but that won't stop me from adding a couple of thoughts.
1.) I think that it was the Definitely Immoral One (Eric Enders) who said that Plaschke was good when it came to human interest stories, but that was his only strength.
2.) Having print guys on TV and radio is not a good thing. It can only make them worse, IMO. Time that they could have spent working on stories and columns (this might not matter for some of these guys) is diverted towards appearing (courtesy of the Onstar Hotline) on radio or, worse, shows like "Around The Horn". It's the McLaughlinization of sports media. Who do these guys talk sports with? Each other. It's very insular.
Personally, I blame the sports editors, not the writers.
If the Dodgers had kept Lo Duca, they wouldn't be playing a better young catcher right now.
Trade didn't hurt in 2004 - team made the playoffs. Didn't hurt in 2005 - Even having Pujols wouldn't have brought last year's squad to .500. Sure looks good in 2006.
If Colletti is on the same page as this idiot, I'm sure the Dodgers could get Lo Duca back, along with a middle reliever, for Martin and Penny.
I see the same thing in political media. The stories the media wants to tell about John McCain or Al Gore don't always accord well with the facts, yet the narrative wins nonetheless.
Plaschke mentioned that Martin is looking good, and that he will allow the franchise to eventually overcome the loss of LoDuca.
My favorite part of the logic was that Eric Gagne is ruined because Jim Tracy overused him, and Jim Tracy admitted to overusing him, and so the person to be blamed is...not Jim Tracy. In fact, the article is still bemoaning the loss of the great Jim Tracy, who is now leading the Pittsburgh Pirates to glory behind veteran leadership like Jeromy Burnitz and Joe Randa...
It makes most of the sports section easy to skip.
Is it Jim Tracey fault the Choi can't hit AAA pitching too?
The guy isn't a good ball player, its time to get off the bandwagon folks.
Let's see:
Dodgers before trade:
Adrián Béltre
Paul Lo Duca
José Hernández
César Izturis
Olmedo Sáenz
Milton Bradley
Shawn Green
Álex Cora
Jayson Werth
Dave Roberts
Elmer Dessens
Duaner Sánchez
Edwin Jackson
Jose Flores
Robin Ventura
Juan Encarnación
Antonio Pérez
Jason Grabowski
Jeff Weaver
José Lima
Brent Mayne
Joe Thurston
David Ross
Wilson Álvarez
Kazuhisa Ishii
Tom Wilson
Hideo Nomo
Odalis Pérez
Guillermo Mota
Mike Venafro
Yhency Brazobán
Darren Dreifort
Eric Gagne
Chin-Feng Chen
Tom Martin
Rodney Myers
Masao Kida
Scott Stewart
Giovanni Carrara
Brian Falkenborg
(might have made amistake or two...)
Let's see- how would that team have done in 2005/06?????
Dominance?
The 2004 team was driven by:
1: An honest to goodness MVP caliber season from Beltre- also one of the greatest fluke seasons n baseball history.
2: A 102 era+ from Lima, a pitcher with a career era+ of 85, and in 2005/06 historically wretched.
3: A healthy Gagne- which I doubt we'll ever see again, and the trade did not injure him
4: A last terrific half season from Mota befire he turned back into a pumpkin
5: Izturis began hitting enough to justify playing everday
6: Alex Cora- career ops+ of 77, put up a 99
7: Jason werth 326PA at an ops+ of 115- think we'll ever see either # again?
8: 597 PA from Milton Bradley
9: a .289/.370/.540 line in 95 games from Jose Hernandez
10: The 4 sp with the most IP were Weaver, Ishii, Perez & Lima- respectable in 2004- would have been the worst starting rotation out of all 30 team sin either 2005 or 2006.
Hindsight is 20/20 (well not for Plaschke...)- it's prety clear now (if you bother to look) that the 2004 Dodgers were not a good team- they were a bad team that by (random chance?) had many key performers play at the top or near the top (or in the case of Beltre- way way over) of their abilities at the same time.
Go back and look at old Plaschke columns- reverse the trades he didn't like- make the moves he wanted instead- look at the "team" that would result- we're atlking 100+ losses easy.
Bill,
this article "wasn't worth a penny". Your opinion/assesment of the trade was awful (you couldn't even find a source in your article that agreed with your assessment, like Ng). Ng probably thought you were an idiot when your were asking her these questions.
Even if you don't believe Penny is a true star-quality #1 starter, you should understand the value (and the scarcity) of a top 20 MLB starter. His value is much greater than that of LoDuca's, who is vastly overrated as a hitter. Most teams would not value "a great signal caller/game manager over an All-Star game starting pitcher". If you think they do why don't you go back and look at the first few rounds of the draft every year. Teams aren't looking primarily for a great defensive catcher.
You called Mota "proven veteran 8th inning" guy. He wasn't that proven (he did it for 1 year in LA, a pitcher's park), and he hasn't succeded nor pithced in the 8th inning well since. How you tied this into Gagne's injury (past success) was ridiculous as well. We all know why Gagne has had injuries (elbow, knee, back) the last few years..
Every GM in baseball would now agree that DePo made a great trade, it is comedy that you would even contest this.
Nice job using one post in a long thread to attack your windmill.
Whether or not the current sports editor believes this is up in the air, but I would be inclined to think that Randy Harvey is a Plaschke supporter.
Nice job using one post in a long thread to attack your windmill.
In Rauseo's defense, which almost pains me to say, this entire thread is about the LoDuca-Penny trade. I think Choi's merits as a player post-trade are germane to the conversation.
You got to give him credit though, I mean Plaschke's pretty indefensible, but he did find somthing to swipe at.
Choi's a pretty minor point, like Mota. Neither one is a quality major league player right now, so the trade really does come down to Lo Duca for Penny.
So many stories you could write looking back after last night. How Penny is now doing what they envisioned what he could do when they traded for him . . . but too late for DePo and Tracy. How maybe Plaschke was wrong at the time and looking back sees things differently (hah!). Maybe how, if they'd known at the time what would happen, what they'd have done differently -- e.g., would DePo have done another deal for another reliever, knowing how Tracy was going to use Gagne in Mota's absence? Would Tracy have used Gagne differently, on the chance that maybe the usage back then DID contribute to his breakdowns?
Those would be interesting columns. I guess Plaschke doesn't write those.
Whether or not the current sports editor believes this is up in the air, but I would be inclined to think that Randy Harvey is a Plaschke supporter.
Considering how much voice and influence such people have in the sports media world, what you just wrote really saddens me. Plaschke is to baseball writing what Lima is to pitching. And my understanding is that it is difficult and takes a lot of hard work to get into the sports journalism business, very sad.
Let's see LoDuca:
2004: .258/.314/.376 (post trade)
2005: .283/.334/.380
2006: .302/.343/.409
Encarnacion:
2004: .238/.320/.381
2005: .287/.349/.447
2006: .274/.303/.449
Mota:
2004: 4.81
2005: 4.70
2006: 5.94
Penny:
2004: 3.09 (11.667 ip)
2005: 3.90
2006: 2.91
Choi:
2004: .161/.289/.242 (just 62 ab- but yikes)
2005: .253/.336/.453
2006: hitting .200 in AAA
Ok- let's say that Mota/Choi is a wash
Encarnacion was decent in 2005, but both in 2004 and 2006 he's a below average ft player
that leaves LoDuca v. Penny
I've see a lot of LoDuca this year, he is a decent player, but the drooling fascination some have with him is just baffling- I can not for teh life of me see that he's significantly better than Ramon Castro (who comes close to the definition of freely available talent)- he's not nearly worth a #1/2 starting pitcher.
He's either:
1: Lying because he likes Plaschke personally
2: Likes Plaschke personally and can't view his work objectively
3: As an editor he like's Plaschke's work because- well people read it and comment on it
(I mean Ann Coulter's publisher undoubtedly knows her work is complete crap- but hell it sells, If I was her publisher I'd love her)
4: He's an idiot.
5: Lying because you always protect one of your own against outsiders
6: The quality of sportwriting is so bad that Plaschke really is one of the most astute (uh nope, that's an insult to every hack writer in existence, the overall quality of newspaper sportwriting is bad these days, but its not that bad- if Mike and the MadDog penned a column- it would be better than teh typical Plaschke column.
There may have been some overuse, but I thought the conventional wisdom for Gagne's monster success and subsequent failure/injury was steroids and HGH. Does that get brought up at all in LA? Here in fly-over land, that's what everyone assumes.
It's also what's assumed here on the east coast
isn't this just a bit unfair? I mean a player moves from SP to RP does great and dominates, then get hurt- oh it must be PEDs
havn't some players been doing this for ever?
Choi isn't a windmill. Unfortunately for his defenders, he also isn't much of a ballplayer.
Well pre all star break for his career he's at: .307/.359/.446
and post he's at: .257/.312/.375
That's not being driven by one or two big halves- he's done that every year except 1- 2005 and in 2005 he had a poor stretch right before the asb and a hot streak right after got hurt missed some time and hit .191/.233/.309 in September.
So he's a valuable player pre asb, and Castro should get the majority of the catching duties from here on out.
The guy isn't a good ball player, its time to get off the bandwagon folks.
Way to miss the point, Rauseo.
Choi might be having a really bad year this year and will soon rebound, or he might have suddenly lost it for some reason. But whatever's happening with him now, this statement:
The guy isn't a good ball player
doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all.
In 1,086 major league PAs at ages 23 thru 26, he put up an OPS+ of 107, an EqA of .275. That's obviously not great for a first baseman, but it isn't bad. It certainly gave reason to think he was worth acquiring.
Tracy's deployment of him was stupifyingly wrong-headed. But at least until this year, Choi could hit.
Actually this year in AAA Choi is the player his detractors always said he was.
Anyway, a lot of people looked at Choi and saw someone who they thought would be a star (Camp A)
other people looked at him and said, are you kidding me, he can't run throw or hit, he doesn't belong in the MLB
So Camp A said Choi could one day hit .275/.375/.550 and when Choi actually hit .240/.349/.437, they said, "see he can hit, just stop jerking him in and out of the lineup"
Camp B said Choi couldn't play and that he'd hit .225/.300/.390 if given the chance, and when he actually hit .240/.349/.437 they said, see, he blows, if he played everyday he'd just get worse.
Personally I think both sides were wrong, Choi was never going to be the player his supporters hoped for, but I think he was better than his detarctors said, and could have been better than .240/.349/.437 if handled better- one detractor once posted that he only hit that well because his managers used him so well- that's absurd- it looks for all the world that Dusty and Tracey were trying to make him fail. Among other things remove his PH numbers and his numbers are .253/.361/.463 and his OPS+ pops up to about 115.
None of which changes the the fact that Plaschke is a moronic slimeball, and that's not limited to just baseball.
There are still some who think he good.
What on earth happened to him?
His last year (year and a half) in LA can be explained as the result of a power struggle with his GM, but in Pitt? He's just another hack managing a bad team. (The team's losing? It's not my fault, it's my player's fault, they suck, waaa, waaa...)
The San Francisco Giants, for instance.
Not that this frustrates me, or anything.
Correct, and the inclusion of Encarnacion probably tipped the scales against DePodesta for this trade - he gave up too much, at least as far as the short term value of the trade was concerned. I think the rationale behind the trade was that although the Dodgers were in first place, they didn't have enough pitching to win the division, much less make a run in the playoffs. But Penny missed most of the remainder of the year with injuries, and to date Choi hasn't lived up to expectations. The trade didn't help them in 2004.
Now that Penny is an All Star, the trade looks much better. But look at it this way: even if DePo got taken on this trade, it's not like he traded Pedro Martinez for Delino DeShields. They lost a catcher who plays slightly above replacement level, which shouldn't be difficult for a team with the resources of the Dodgers to acquire. [In fact, they seemed to have one with Navarro, but they traded him as well.]
This is true - his story on The Standells reforming to play "Dirty Water" at Fenway Park during the 2004 World Series was excellent. It was a million times better than anything he's ever written about baseball...
Yes, except for neither good-natured or amusing and without the giant breasted wife.
Now that Penny is an All Star, the trade looks much better.
The thing is, if you look at the trade at the time, Choi had value. If you look at the trade in hindsight, then Choi had little value, but Penny's an ace pitcher. Plaschke wants to have it both ways - Choi having no value, Penny having less value, and Mota's loss injuring Gagne for some retarded reason.
Actually, his children should be praised, having to go through life with some of the genetic material of that ####### ####### ########## assclown ############ #######.
The whole thing was so political, they could have done a "West Wing" episode about it.
Really? Dodger fans liked Paul LoDuca that much? He seems like a pretty mediocre ballplayer to me.
His swing resembles one though
He was a fan favorite, but not to teh degree he became after the trade- what happened was that the LA Sports mediots just went completely apesh*t bonkers after that trade-
I work witha few dodgers fans, their initial reation was, "why did we have to give up Mota?"- they weren't that hurt to lose LoDuca- a lot of them were irrationally high on Dave Ross (which they won't admit now)
What happened was that 90% of the LA SportsMedia immediately began shrieking, "Hey you can't disrupt a team like this in the middle of a race!!! My God, without Mota who will bridge the gap to Gagne!!! loDuca is the HEART AND SOUL of the Dodgers!!!!
One Dodger fan told me, a week after the trade, "I always liked LoDuca but I didn't realize he was such a leader for the team, maybe they shouldn't have traded him"
The media's reaction was so hysterically overdone that it did swing/push public opinion to a great degree. The casual fan might think, "all these writers think this is the worst trade since Ruth was traded for Broadway production seed money, ok, they are exagerrating, but gee it must be a really bad trade..."
Presently, Vin's favorite player on the Dodgers is Andre Ethier.
Other more unusual players Vin Scully has had a fondness for are:
Mike Lieberthal
Pedro Feliz
Jack Wilson
From his May 21st column:
"They [the Dodgers] have become, almost overnight, brainy and balanced contenders."
Today:
"And the truth is in the standings, the Dodgers requiring a giant effort simply to reach mediocrity in a division where, two years ago, the stage was set for dominance.
The trade cleared that stage. It cost the Dodgers a manager, a general manager, and perhaps three years of legitimate championship contention."
Two months ago, the Dodgers had surged back into contention, thanks to the genius of Ned Colletti. Now, they are treading water in a mediocre NL West, and it's all the fault of DePo and that bloody trade. Colletti gets a pass because DePo ruined the team for three years, so we can't start blaming him for the team's underachieving until 2007 or 2008.
"We have always been at war with Eastasia."
While I don't KNOW this for a fact it seems pretty likely to me that Paul is very media savvy. He certainly does and say the things you associate with a player who is VERY aware of the power of perception. His antics in NY are strong indicators to me that Lo Duca knows how to play the press quite effectively. If so then the "other" Paul had no chance in a public setting given his alleged lack of skills in relating to people with pens/microphones.
Jim Tracy is worse then a hack. Talk to any Pirates fan and Tracy's behavior as manager has been reprehensible. Multiple times he has thrown his entire team under the bus and pretty much given himself a free pass on the team's lack of performance. The last six weeks the local press has turned against him which is pretty incredible given the VERY forgiving nature of the Pittsburgh media. This is the town that gave Lloyd two plus years before suggesting that the guy was clueless.
(I almost wrote "calling a -----, a ------. Good grief. Now THAT would have gotten this board rolling. Wow. I was reading my post and something nagged at me. So I paused. And then it hit me. Phew)
I know a couple of Dodgers fans who admit this privately, but none will say so in public that I've seen.
no No No!!!
The same mediots who hated DePo tended to like Finley and thought he should have been re-upped- thereore it is FORBIDDEN to suggest that DePo played any role in bringing him to the Dodgers for the pennant drive in 2004.
A healthy Penny might have pushed them into the NLCS that year, especially considering the Dodgers narrowly missed drawing Atlanta in round 1.
And what about the CW that Penny was only valuable as a trading chip for Randy Johnson? How does that position hold up now?
I'm sure the Yankees would be willing to trade RJ to LaLa for Penny.
Well, duh.
The media's reaction was so hysterically overdone that it did swing/push public opinion to a great degree.
While I don't KNOW this for a fact it seems pretty likely to me that Paul is very media savvy. He certainly does and say the things you associate with a player who is VERY aware of the power of perception. His antics in NY are strong indicators to me that Lo Duca knows how to play the press quite effectively. If so then the "other" Paul had no chance in a public setting given his alleged lack of skills in relating to people with pens/microphones.
I've noticed this Teflon phenomenon too with Lo Duca. It worries me for the future and whether the Mets will be able to cut the strings with him without taking a significant PR hit. It is quite remarkable, one day after the trade, the NY Times immediately came up with a puff piece on Lo Duca. Already, in a half a season, Lo Duca has created this image of a gritty, tough leader to the New York public, which frankly to me has no substance behind it. Being accredited as an All-Star now will only add to his reputation. It'll be interesting to learn how he manages to create this image whereever he goes.
The San Francisco Giants, for instance.
Not that this frustrates me, or anything.
Grr... I don't know if you visit MccoveyChronicles at all Steve, but I remember screaming loudly and often for the Giants to pick up one of Pena or Choi when they were on waivers - but no, we need proven ####### veteran Jose Vizcaino. Sabean's performance the last 3 years has been absofuckinglutely horrific.
Not that I'm bitter or anything.
Pedro Feliz
Keep talking Bob - Vin probably dislikes that Matt Kemp or Chad Billingsley fellow, doesn't he ?
It sure has, which is all the more frustrating in that up until that point his performance had been quite impressive. For the longest time he demonstrated quite a knack for picking up useful talent on the cheap: Jose Cruz Jr., David Bell, Reggie Sanders, Andres Galarraga, Felix Rodriguez, etc. He seems to have utterly lost any sense for it.
Just as players grow, peak, and decline, managers and GMs surely do too. And we Giants' fans are clearly being treated to Sabean's decline phase right now. Yuck.
well I read that he's looking for Sean Casey now :-)
No, he's a disaster. A couple of times per year he'll write a decent human interest story. Otherwise, it's just hit-pieces or opinion columns (and he has been known to change his opinion mutliple times on the same issue, and has even bragged about this).
I agree with this; the Chavez Ravine fans fans on this site are well above the mean.
I had never heard any consideration of Gagne and PED before, FWIW ...
... as for Plaschke being an astute baseball writer, this is the guy who once wrote, with an apparently straight face, that there were statistical studies that proved Barry Bonds reached base more often than he came to bat.
Isn't that because they arrive late and leave early?
I hate watching Plaschke on that 'Around the Horn' show. He is such a tosser
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main