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Sunday, June 21, 2009

L.A. Times: Torii Hunter is the best thing in L.A. baseball

All right. All right. So he’s not the biggest, baddest and most powerful. So he doesn’t have the glossy name he’d have if his first years had been spent in Boston or New York, or even Chavez Ravine.

He doesn’t have dreadlocks and an enigmatic, flaky-but-mostly lovable personality. Or a jersey number like 99. Or even a single season with more than 40 home runs.

But he does have this: character—the only cheating he’s ever been accused of is cheating others out of home runs with a jump and a glove.

And this: During this season of baseball in L.A. and its environs, a season of anguish, broken hearts and never-say-never excitement typified by Saturday’s 6-4 Dodgers win over the Angels, Torii Hunter is simply the best thing going.

Among our mega-region’s two big league teams, nobody has been better. He’s been so impressive, been such an important cog for a squad that has suffered the most human of stings, that a real case can be made for Hunter as current American League MVP.

Honest, did you think we’d arrive here? There was a time, shortly after the Angels signed Hunter two winters ago, when a loud cry came from certain sections of Anaheim fandom: The Angels just signed 32-year-old Torii Hunter for five years at $18 million per? What a crock! He’s a good player and decent guy, the Internet-emboldened ranting went, but he’s no A-Rod or Miguel Cabrera or Miguel Tejada, to name just three players heavily pined-for back then.

Tripon Posted: June 21, 2009 at 06:36 AM | 22 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: angels

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1. Matt Welch Posted: June 21, 2009 at 04:14 PM (#3226781)

There was a time, shortly after the Angels signed Hunter two winters ago, when a loud cry came from certain sections of Anaheim fandom: The Angels just signed 32-year-old Torii Hunter for five years at $18 million per? What a crock! He’s a good player and decent guy, the Internet-emboldened ranting went, but he’s no A-Rod or Miguel Cabrera or Miguel Tejada, to name just three players heavily pined-for back then.

If there was a single quote like that on the front page of any significant Angels fans site, I sure don't remember it.

2. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

Posted: June 21, 2009 at 04:50 PM (#3226797)

The BBTF Transaction Oracle thread at the time was pretty positive, IIRC, especially given the dollar numbers. Most of the Hunter-related comments (thread got hijacked, of course) went something like "A lot of money, but at least the team will be better," and "Now if only the Angels can dump Matthews." The comments were not uniformly positive, and I'm sure other sites that might have called the signing "a crock!" I have no idea what those sites might be.

3. Halofan Posted: June 21, 2009 at 06:37 PM (#3226855)

LA Times gets to defame the character of all Angels internet reporting by making up incidents that did not happen.

Funny how the mainstream media is not citing sources... because they are making them up.

The only criticism I recall about the Hunter deal was that it might be a year too long.

4. hscs Posted: June 21, 2009 at 06:48 PM (#3226873)

the only cheating he’s ever been accused of is cheating others out of home runs with a jump and a glove.

You won't find his prints on the Metrodome's HVAC control panel.

5. Srul Itza At Home Posted: June 21, 2009 at 07:06 PM (#3226917)

Hunter, at the age of 33 -- an advanced age for a center fielder -- is producing an OBP that is 70 points above his career average, and a SLB that is 130 points above his career average.

Isn't it time for us to start making veiled assertions about . . .

6. Cowboy Popup Posted: June 21, 2009 at 07:07 PM (#3226920)

Isn't it time for us to start making veiled assertions about . . .

His age?

7. Tripon Posted: June 21, 2009 at 07:24 PM (#3226967)

No, its L.A. He means we need to make a rumor that Hunter is cheating on his wife with Paris Hilton.

8. Biff isn't really an apt handle anymore Posted: June 21, 2009 at 08:03 PM (#3227065)

I don't know who Torii Hunter's wife is, but I feel safe in assuming she would be a lot more attractive than Paris Hilton.

9. andrewberg Posted: June 21, 2009 at 11:27 PM (#3227198)

Under the supposition that Hunter never used steroids, he is one of the players whose stature and reputation suffered most from the prevalence of steroids in the game early in his career. He is a CF with 8 gold gloves, and who will probably finish his career with more than 2000 hits, 300 HR, 1000 r/rbi, and 200 sb. He has been a clutch post-season performer and had a signature moment on the national stage when he robbed Barry's HR in the All-Star game in 2002. I don't think he would be considered a HOFer by any standards without playing productively into his late 30s, but he certainly would be considered on the next tier of great players from his generation. I don't think he has that reputation with most fans.

10. Srul Itza At Home Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:06 AM (#3227223)

don't think he would be considered a HOFer by any standards without playing productively into his late 30s, but he certainly would be considered on the next tier of great players from his generation. I don't think he has that reputation with most fans.

I don't see why he belongs on that tier. Prior to this year, his career OPS+ was 105. He steals bases at a 70% success rate -- below break even -- and his best showings there are 2 9ths and an 8th. He has a .330 OBP. According to UZR, per at least one MGL article I have seen, the Gold Gloves overrate him.

The center fielder who actually is overlooked is probably Kenny Lofton. He has a similar career OPS+, but through the end of his decline phase, and stole 622 at an 80% rate, while racking up a .372 OBP.

11. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:09 AM (#3227224)

A 70% stolen-base rate isn't below break-even in most formulations I've seen.

12. Srul Itza At Home Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:24 AM (#3227242)

Everything I've seen, at least since 1995, says 75% or so.

Example

13. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: June 22, 2009 at 12:42 AM (#3227255)

The Book did a good job of demonstrating that the breakeven point varies based on situation. The average situation they found was at 72%, but when adjusted for situations in which people actually attempted to steal it came out closer to 69%.

14. andrewberg Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:22 AM (#3227278)

The center fielder who actually is overlooked is probably Kenny Lofton

I will agree that Lofton is already underrated historically. He was a great player for a long time. I think you're right in saying that he was a better offensive player than Hunter, but the gap is not enormous. Hunter has had a SLG-heavy 800 OPS for his career on teams that needed him to hit for power. He had skills that were well tailored to his teams' necessities. He also played better defense than Lofton, though he has not yet suffered the late career decline that inevitably clouds the judgment of Lofton's defense.

15. Srul Itza At Home Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:24 AM (#3227279)

Hunter has had a SLG-heavy 800 OPS for his career on teams that needed him to hit for power.

They needed him to make more outs?

16. akrasian Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:39 AM (#3227289)

They needed him to make more outs?

The games would have been too long if he kept getting on base. He does it for the fans.

17. AROM Posted: June 22, 2009 at 01:40 AM (#3227290)

I don't think he would be considered a HOFer by any standards without playing productively into his late 30s, but he certainly would be considered on the next tier of great players from his generation.

I think a player from a generation ago that Torii is comparable to is Chet Lemon - strong CF defense, good power, but not strong enough overall numbers to make a Cooperstown case.

On Lofton, his early to mid 90's peak put him among the handful of the greatest players in the game. Later in his career his nomadic phase will probably work against him, people aren't going to think of you as a HOFer if every year you a struggling to find a 1 year contract. But he was productive to the end, and should get some credit for being the final piece of a lot of playoff bound teams.

2002 - Mid season trade to Giants, made final out of World Series
2003 - Mid season trade to Cubs, lost in NLCS, hit .323 that series against Marlins
2004 - Went to ALCS with Yankees, didn't play much in postseason
2005 - His Phillies came up 2 games short of Braves, but Kenny hit .335 as platoon CF
2006 - Dodgers made playoffs, lost in first round to Mets
2007 - Traded to Cleveland, played well in beating Yankees in round one, poorly against Red Sox in ALCS

He didn't win a championship in that stretch but it sure beats watching October baseball from home.

18. Srul Itza At Home Posted: June 22, 2009 at 02:21 AM (#3227307)

If you are breaking down "tiers" of players, I think you have:

Sure fire HOFers
Borderline or almost Borderline HOFers
Very Good Players
Above Average Players.

I would put Hunter in class 3, not class 2. He might prove otherwise going forward. Or this year could be a fluke.

19. AROM Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:07 AM (#3227339)

Agreed Srul.

I checked Hunter's numbers vs Chet Lemon: 274/330/474 for Torii, 273/355/442 for Chet. Close enough, but Torii playing in a higher run environment means Chet beats him 120 to 107 in OPS+. Torii is worlds ahead as a baserunner (Lemon had good speed but no sense on the bases) and leads 8-0 in gold gloves (though that is a bit surprising, Lemon was good enough to win a few). Lemon was a good player, but nobody ever debated for him to go into the hall.

20. Hugh Jorgan Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:22 AM (#3227350)

almost Borderline HOFers
Very Good Players

Is there much of difference? are we talking Alan Trammel vs. Dewey Evans type of argument?

21. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: June 22, 2009 at 03:23 AM (#3227352)

He didn't win a championship in that stretch but it sure beats watching October baseball from home.

He has 95 career playoff games and no championships. Surely that's got to be a record, and one that I suspect will be damn hard to top.

22. Bob T Posted: June 22, 2009 at 04:58 AM (#3227391)

Andruw Jones is 20 games behind Lofton for that title.

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L.A. Times: Torii Hunter is the best thing in L.A. baseball

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