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Both of those things have their place, but neither needs to be in the absurd amounts in what seems like every single craft beer.
EDIT: No, I'm not Prince Fielder.
People that view craft only through ABV and IBUs are frauds.
This threshold is basically whatever Sam Adams wants it to be.
Of course this is 100% of all beer.
Cooley Law School is basically a diploma mill, so this is just for advertising. Same reason there's a "University of Phoenix Stadium" even though the University of Phoenix doesn't have sports teams.
Thanks.
In keeping with its online nature, University of Phoenix Stadium should be virtual, hosting simulated games.
What exactly does this rule out? Pumpkin beer? Does it rule out lambics?
Of course I don't expect the Assistant GM of the baseball team to know everything about beer, but every beer is either an Ale or Lager. Including Pumpkin and lambics.
Sigh.
It's true, it's just a matter of time before I become sick of drinking beer with flavor and go crawling back to Coors Light.
I endorse this message. Someone on BBTF once criticized American microbrewery as devolving into a game of Russian roulette with hops. I use that line a lot; I think it's apt.
I mean, to each their own, and if you want to drink a triple imperial nut stout choco-pintacular, go for it. But the fetishizing of hops is a bane on American beer-making.
For me, personally, I like a cool, crisp lager or pilsner. Or Guinness.
Always with the Guinness.
I didn't read the entire article, but I don't see a quote where Grueser used the word "fad". It's unfair if the reporter inserted it.
What about stouts?
Honest question.
By definition, to be beer, it has to be a lager or an ale. It's just a distinction between top-fermenting and bottom-fermenting.
I definitely agree some beer drinkers, if not many, think hops and think more=better beer. As for your hypothetical "triple imperial nut stout"....that's a beer that probably wouldn't come off as extremely hoppy/bitter due to being balanced out by the strong, rich flavors of the rich malts and adjuncts, esp the chocolate addition.
But yea, I get your point. Hop bombs for the sake of hops or +100 IBUs aren't automatically good beers.
Yes, I agree that's not likely to be a hoppy beer. I was mixing my complaints: I'm not a fan of most convoluted choco-oatmeal-etc. beers either, but I'll allow it.
I will not stand the aggression of suicidal hoppiness.
"Bottom"-fermenting (lager) is actually more middle-fermenting than it is bottom fermenting.
It is a good question. ASmitty is right. I'll add that Ale's or Lager's refers to yeast. Yeast is one of the 4 base ingredients in all beer. Water, Malt, Yeast, Hops... Yeast has always been in beer, but the fact wasn't discovered until relatively recently.
Stouts (Ale yeast) and Pilsners (Lager yeast) for example are beer styles. Yes the word Ale does appear in many beer styles.
The "traditional beer" rule is in place so a independent company that makes a Smirnoff Ice or Sparks type product can't call themselves a craft brewer.
Also, post #8 is completely right. Its amazing how the Brewers Association definition of craft beer as become accepted as THE definition of craft beer. The Brewers Association is just a trade group, no reason they should get to be the arbiter of what is and isn't a craft beer.
I used to practice in Michigan, and I knew a large number of Cooley grads. A couple of them were really talented lawyers. Most of them were...unimpressive. Like I said above--most people outside Michigan haven't heard of it, and most people in the profession in Michigan regard it as a joke.
I don't think I've ever encountered a Cooley grad since I moved a whopping 75 miles from Michigan's southwestern tip.
Law schools can basically flat-out lie about post-graduate employment statistics; there's momentum for some sort of accountability, but nowhere near the level to counteract the just insane amount of money places like Cooley can generate for administration and teachers.
Law school, in general, teaches you nothing. I went to a top tier law school and I highly doubt I emerged with any better knowledge of the law than a motivated Cooley student.
It's probably difficult, or impossible, to turn a Cooley degree into a big-paying firm job, but the state employs plenty of them.
Yet families and kids that are just finishing HS really don't feel confident they can "blow off" college. Most probably can't afford to blow it off, but then again many can't afford to go and many should realize there are many ways to find a career without college.
I freely admit to liking beers that are very bitter and strong, with lots of hops. I don't have much of a sense of smell, so I rely on taste and feel; I don't much like thick sweet beer (if I want root beer, I'll drink root beer). I woke up to über-hoppy beers on a barstool in Ann Arbor a few years ago, but whatever I was drinking was so bitterly strong that I promptly forgot the name – shame, because I've been trying to repeat the experience.
Finally, has anyone here been to a World of Beer bar? They've just opened one in Arlington (nowhere near the stadiums, unfortunately). I doubt I would go there very much; it's in an artificial shopping-district near a big freeway interchange, so the traffic is noisome and the ambiance nil. But I wonder if they have a good selection ...
Generally, I agree with this. The problem with Cooley isn't that they teach incompetently (I never went there, so I can't speak from experience), but that they accept damn near anyone, and they have a massive enrollment. The capable attorneys I know from Cooley were likely capable people before they went there; the ones who weren't really shouldn't have been in law school to begin with.
I understand that everyone's ability to perceive bitterness varies greatly. Most women have a high intolerance of bitter flavors compared to men, for example.
I agree with mostly all of this. I have to think there's a slight advantage in terms of your professors at a Harvard or Virginia (whoooo home crowd!) versus a Cooley, but law professors everywhere are generally a pretty impressive bunch. Many, if not most, are former Supreme Court clerks, and the ones who are not generally have a "holy moly" item or two on their resume to recommend them.
For a few years, I've been calling these "stunt beers."
There isn't really anything stunt-like about trying various combinations of hops to get a new, explosive flavor. Don't look now but the IPA/DIPA is the category that is driving craft beer's growth.
The "stunt beers," to me, are the ones that use gimmicky ingredients for the sake of using gimmicky ingredients.
I do think we reached a peak for Hop Bombs. I'm seeing people acknowledge this fact, that hops don't automatically = great beer. High ABV and high IBUs sell, it's kind of a mainstream craft buyer approach to buying beer. Now that people are learning more about beer I think the drinker is increasingly smart enough to look around more.
I already see there is an uptick in craft session beers.
I read this in the BRAWNDO: The Thirst Mutilator pitch voice.
I mean, yeah, sure. Meth is the category that is driving the growth of mobile drug labs.
You are no better than a meth addict, sir.
All true. Put IPA on anything and it sells. Bud's Shock Top just announced they are launching an IPA.
I've found several great hoppy beers, that would probably qualify as "stunt beers" or "hop bombs", but overall, I think some of us are criticizing the segment of drinker that thinks more hops = better beer....as some kind of rule.
I get not everyone that drinks an extremely hoppy beer isn't like this, but a good deal of the sales are to people thinking that's the equation of beer quality.
There was a very good study done decades ago about the value of elite degrees. I believe it was Michael Spence, ironically of Harvard.
He found that the value of an "Ivy League" or equivalent education was almost solely in the signalling effect, i.e. the fact that you were good enough to get in meant you were really smart. The education itself added little value beyond that, in terms of earnings.
If companies were able to verify admissions letters, they be just as well off hiring people who were admitted to Harvard Law, and went to "State U" as actual Harvard graduates.
Hey, that could be a new revenue stream for elite schools. You can have a degree for $200,000 and four years of your life, or a certificate of admission for $20,000.
Thirded.
Oh that's good. I'll have to remember that one.
Makes total sense. This is why I joke (but it's probably serious) when kiddies and their parents in NYC, for example, compete viciously to get into top kindergarten classes or top grammar schools. The "signaling effect" is almost certainly in play at this level as well. Imagine, a kiddo that got admitted into the (fictitious) "Chadwick School for Learning" for kindergarten.....that kid just might have enough resume credentials to get into the best middle schools, then boarding schools, then Ivy League.
It all goes back to the kindergarten application.
It's kind of hyperbole, I admit, but there is certainly a kernel of truth here.
I'll generalize here, but I think people in the East Coast put way more stock into paper credentials than anyone else in America. It gets to a point your credentials define you, not necessarily your accomplishments. Bernie Madoff was chair of the NASDAQ, no way he would run a ponzi scheme they said! And I'm sure almost no body kicked the tires too hard either, since many of his investors probably are built on paper credentials and have a lot to lose by challenging others since it could blow back. (Admittedly simplistic and cynical)
Of course the kink in that plan is that any Ivy league college will only take a certain number of kids from any one school.
So, your kid is much better off, admissions-wise, being top-of-the-class at White Plains HS or Archbishop Molloy, than being middle-of-the-pack at Horace Mann or even Scarsdale HS.
The trick is to make sure your first work is a hit, then leverage that hit for your entire life to distribute the rest of your crappy work, but get paid highly for all of it.
The Cheers cast mastered this. Other than Frasier which was a hit.
Some of those elite private schools deliver nearly all of their students to elite colleges.
Any that you would suggest?
If you think that Stone and DFH are the epitome or even representative of next-generation breweries, then it's no wonder you might think that overly aggressive, experimental beer is the status quo. I can't imagine anyone sticking with Stone after they've discovered Green Flash or Deschutes or Big Bear or any of a hundred other outstanding American breweries that don't ask their customers to run a hop gauntlet.
Well, you have a problem with self-selection. Parents only pay $40,000 to send smart kids there. I'd guess if you randomly distributed those kids across public HS, they'd all end up in really good colleges.
If you want to go to Harvard, intelligence held equal, you're much better off going to a mediocre public or parochial school where you'll be the star, than being #40 of 250 at a pricy private school.
Let me be a lonely voice defending IPAs. The fact that there are philistines who think that cramming as much hops into beer as possible is a good substitue for testosterone does not mean tha there are not great, wwll balanced IPAs. Try a Founder's RedRyePA.
I too speak out against the incessant hopination ... but damn if they don't make some amazing ones down here so I suffer gladly.
But, y'know, there's a worldwide hop shortage. Tuatara can't make another batch of their very fine APA for 2 years because that's the earliest they can get the right kind of hops because everything has been bought up.
The other problem, at least here, is the incessant searching for new recipes generally -- nothing wrong with that per se except it seems to lead to the abandonment (or at least under-production) of existing good recipes.
Going to one next week. Then again, I'm no beer guy - I won't be able to judge.
I don't know about this - or, at least, I don't think you can hold all else equal. Those elite schools set expectations for the students as well as for future educators/employers. Put that kid in some public schools and the Ivy League as a possibility wouldn't even occur to them.
Oh, I think every parent paying $40,000 for HS is thinking Ivy League, and would, even if they couldn't come up with the scratch.
Some define "Session" beers by ABV, usually around 4%. To me, "session" means I can have 5-6. Usually it's a combination of lower alcohol and avoiding overwhelming flavors in favor of more subtle flavors and a light malt sweetness, which is what most people seeking session beers desire. Most of these below are around 5%.
Stone's Levitation Ale (big flavor for lower ABV 4-5% ish, but the most drinkable beer from Stone)
Harpoon Brown Session Ale (more flavor, but not overwhelming after 4)
Leinenkugel's Honey Weiss, Octoberfest (very drinkable, subtle flavor)
Blue Point Toasted Lager (inconsistent QC, 5.5% but just enough flavor and drinkable)
Boulevard Amber Ale (good balance)
Spotted Cow (easy to drink)
These are all beers I can pound several in one sitting. If I was going to drink just 1 beer, I probably wouldn't choose these, they are solid when you are at a party or sporting event and want to have more than 4.
As we discussed above, many beer snobs think lower ABV or IBU beers = bad beer. Ignore them. Just about all beer is good beer, it depends on where and when you are drinking. If I cut my grass in the summer, I assure you I'm not finishing up with a Green Flash, I'd grab one of the beers above..or even a High Life for christsakes.
Another "secret" of craft is that it is much easier to hide brewing flaws in higher ABV, big flavored beers. It is very difficult to make lower ABV beers or clear beers consistently and at a high level of quality. That's partly the reason so many craft beers are heavy and dark. It requires a lot of technology and practice brewing clear beer....that requires a ton of money.
I tried to list more popular and widely distributed craft brands, not sure where you live.
Agreed 100%; see also Bell's Two Hearted Ale.
http://victorybeer.com/beers/prima-pils/
http://www.troegs.com/our_brews/sunshine_pils.aspx
http://www.rogue.com/beers/dead-guy-ale.php
http://www.notchbrewing.com/
http://www.oskarblues.com/the-brews/mamas-little-yella-pils
there's actually a bunch of local stuff here in the boston area that qualifies ... a quick skim of my local beer bar's tap list http://lordhobo.com/?page_id=5 ... i'd say there are at least a half dozen sessionable beers here made by small US breweries
Isn't Leinenkugel a really old, traditional brewery? From Chicago?
I guess they've branched out, but I remember it being a decent beer, even in its original incarnation.
If the end game is Harvard, regardless of cost of HS, you would most certainly rather be #40 at an elite private school than even top 5 at a mediocre HS.
I get your point and I partially agree with it, but I think you under estimate a bit how many kids form elite HS schools make elite universities. Some of these HS's deliver a nearly all graduates to top universities. When I say nearly all, I mean nearly all. Also, few of these schools have 250 kids per class. Although I know that's not part of your point.
I would not want to attempt to get into Harvard ranked #1 from a po-dunk HS in Iowa, you would much rather be 75 out of 100 at Delbarton or super elite schools like the Kent School and others like it in New England. Realize that some of these elite HS I'm talking about, the truly elite, are affiliated with elite universities. That's what I'm talking about.
This is probably why I like stronger beer. At 53 my liver can still handle a small amount of alcohol, but my bladder objects to a lot of liquid :) One or two beers a night is truly my speed. And I draw the alcohol line well below the various triples and quadruples and crazy-assassin barley wines and what not.
jbdkaput recommended Deschutes, and I second it: I have some Inversion IPA back home in my fridge as we speak, and it's nicely-balanced, not too sweet and not insanely hoppy, either.
5 or 6 generations, one of the oldest. Still family managed, Chippewa Falls, WI. Very easy to drink stuff. Big in Chicago.
I see Prima Pils was linked above from Victory, very good, however it is very hoppy for a true "session" beer. Maybe for a craft guy that likes hoppy beers it is "sessionable" but they can't be considered "sessionable" by most definitions. Rouge Dead Guy, just looked it up, has +40 IBUs, Pils has +60. No way these would be considered sessionable.
Now I'm not saying there aren't beers people that can drink several of these, but for people truly looking for a sessionable beer, suggesting these would be misdirection. Notch is getting lots of pub, I have not been able to try them yet.
Narragannsett (spelling) has a few truly sessionable beers..... of course nobody confuses Gannesett for award winning, still good when you want to drink several.
Their Mirror Pond Pale Ale would also be of interest to you.
agreed. the only beer i had for first two weeks of january was singha, but i was totally fine with that, because that's a great beer for when it's 85 and sunny and i'm 100 feet from the beach.
Another "secret" of craft is that it is much easier to hide brewing flaws in higher ABV, big flavored beers. It is very difficult to make lower ABV beers or clear beers consistently and at a high level of quality. That's partly the reason so many craft beers are heavy and dark. It requires a lot of technology and practice brewing clear beer....that requires a ton of money.
while true, i'd say that's overstated a bit. i think the first phase of the craft beer thing, it was good enough just to be a microbrewery, and there were a ton of microbreweries making mediocre beer. at this point, you actually need to be good, and if you are good brewer and you have a half decent brewery at your disposal, you can make a very good pale lager.
all that said, i think the main thing that has kept the small breweries away from session beers is distribution and fear that they'd be competing with the big breweries. you see a bunch of really small micro or contract brewing operations sticking to just kegs and maybe growler fills. this lets them get closer to the person that's going to drink the beer so they can make sure that it's treated well in transit and served fresh. i can make you a pale lager that's great fresh, but if it's going to sit in the back of a warehouse for a month and then get served from a dirty tap line, it may as well be a pabst because it's going to taste like ####.
Perhaps people think that these breweries are representative of next-generation breweries because they are two of the largest and most successful craft breweries operating in the US. Also, they were pioneers of several strong, aggressive beer styles. Moreover, the people that run them have very high visibility (at least in the beer world). Sam Calagione is a board member of the Brewers Association, had a TV show on the Discovery Channel, and collaborates with Mario Batali. Plus, both of these breweries produce tons of very good craft beer. In particular, Stone's collaboration series has produced some of the most interesting, creative, and delicious beers out there.
Also, I'm not sure how you can criticize Stone and DFH for producing overly aggressive beer and, at the same time, laud Green Flash. Green Flash is one of my favorite breweries, but their flagship beer is a delicious and totally aggressive west coast style IPA. My favorite beer that they brew is a mashup of a Belgian trippel and an Imperial IPA. Their beers are great, but they fall squarely in the overly aggressive and experimental category.
It is certainly true that a beer is not good because it contains a large amount of alcohol or hops. However, to dismiss a beer as bad because of it's high alcohol and/or hops as is just as foolish to assume it is great solely because of these characteristics.
Russian River's Pliny the Elder IPA is a high alcohol and high IBU beer that shows remarkable balance and diversity of flavor. It pours and laces beautifully with a wonderful nose and clean finish. Even their Pliny the Younger triple IPA finishes remarkably clean-- considering that there is an explosion of pine and grapefruit flavors on first sip. On the other hand, Oggi's Hop Juice is overwhelming and fatiguing. It shows no creativity or imagination and ruins your palate for the rest of the day.
The line of thinking that produces extreme beers is a good thing. It pushes boundaries and has over the last ~15 years produced a number of new styles, reinvented old styles, and brought back to life some styles that had been forgotten/abandoned. Things like barrel aging and souring bacteria have given brewers new tools in their tool belt to experiment with their creativity. That is a good thing for talented brewers and breweries. It is not a good thing for bad brewers and breweries.
The Yuengling of the Midwest, I guess. Gotta love those Germans.
Can you get Leinenkugels in NY? I remember liking it a lot when I was in Chi-town, twenty years ago.
sure, dead guy ale is pretty strong for a session beer ... but for its strength it's not what i'd call hoppy.
and pilsners are supposed to be hoppy by traditional standards, but the methods and types of hops lend a much smoother bitterness if you will. you don't get that piny, resinous thing you see in an ipa.
this. all hail vinnie cilurzo.
Totally agree with this point #69. I did blow it off above. We are indeed in an era where nearly all brewers that are in business make quality stuff and Quality Control has improved tons from the early 90s, when there was a lot of foul beer on shelves.
Very interesting point at the end about competing with macros. Probably true. Credibility in craft is tied to being the ANTI Macro. That's the way the perception works right now. I don't automatically think that way, to me it is kind of silly to write off good beer because it gets popular, mainstream or big. I can make up my own mind what is good and what isn't. I don't need to be the only guy holding my brand of beer at the bar to enjoy it. There are some great beers owned by the macros. My guess is down the road more small breweries will be bought up, I'll still drink their beer.
disagree. last spring i made what i consider to be an excellent example of this style ... it wasn't overwhelmingly bitter, so IPA is a misnomer, but there is plenty of space to mix belgian yeasts with american hops. in my beer, i used the la chouffe yeast, fermented on the cold side to keep down the esters, with citra, palisads, and sterling hops. sadly, its long gone. i'll have to brew it again this spring.
I suppose with the right balance of flavors you can find that special full flavor beer you can guzzle. I'll check out Dead Guy if I see it.
Very good stuff from #70. My fav new beer of the year I've tried was Russian River Supplication. It's a sour so it's not for everyone. I realized I like sour beers after this one.
Pilsner Urquell is one that delivers on traditional standards. Piny is what many people would use to describe its hoppy bitterness. Of course that beer pretty much invented pilsner as you said, traditional pilsners use to deliver a different taste.
fwiw, 40 ibus is just above the bitterness range for a ordinary bitter and at the high end for special/best bitter, and those styles pretty much define session beer.
I'm glad you caught this. This didn't make sense to me either when I first read it. Stone is just a sterling brewery. My take was this poster comes from the school that says, once you are popular, you must not be quality. It's clear that as you note #70, that Stone and Dog Fish Head have become very huge within craft. Of course the guy that equates popularity to lack of quality doesn't have any taste of his own. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the vibe I got reading that original post. Going out and lauding another, but more relatively obscure fresh face.
Ironically, the Dog Fish Head people are probably the most true to the ethos of the craft stereotype which is make beer, not money. Those guys make all sorts of stuff and seem not interested in profit, they in fact seem more than able of running the company out of business with an obsession with new beers and experimentation.
really? i haven't been to pilsen or even prague, but from the beers that i've had made with saaz hops, i'd describe the hoppiness as floral and spicy rather than piny. when i think piny hops i think the pacific northwest style ... cascade, centennial, etc.
well, it helps that sam is independently wealthy. of course, that is not to take anything away from his beers, which are mostly outstanding.
Session has a very lose definition. I do believe the term mostly comes from the UK, but I'm prepared to be corrected. 4% ABV was their threshold. IBUs probably aren't part of the original definition. So we can debate it.
Pilsner Urquell, noted for its piney hoppy bitterness is just under 40 IBUs I believe. Many people despise Pilsner Urqell because of this. As we discussed earlier, depending on style, 40 IBUs might result in little to no perceptible bitterness. But usually for that to be true, the flavor intensity increases.
10-15 IBUs I understand is the threshold where most humans can't perceive any bitterness. I also read that IBUs have kind of a diminishing returns in terms of perception.....at a some point for most people, once you get over 60 or for others 75, bitterness perception is at its max. If someone is asking me for a session beer coming from the point of view they dislike hops, I'm going to steer them away from anything over 25 and towards clear beers.
they may be confusing pine with skunk. green bottles will do that.
10-15 IBUs I understand is the threshold where most humans can't perceive any bitterness. I also read that IBUs have kind of a diminishing returns in terms of perception.....at a some point for most people, once you get over 60 or for others 75, bitterness perception is at its max.
yeah this is right.
Well, yeah, there's nothing wrong with mixing styles and ingredients--I really like the Collaboration Ale from Green Flash/St. Feuillien, for example--and as you said, your brew wasn't really an IPA. Calling something a Belgian-style IPA is simply contradictory, like an IPA Beaujolais or something.
Sticking those initials on a Belgian bottle indicates to me either a brewing abomination, or (more likely) a Poochy-level marketing decision.
Yes, spicy, that's probably even a better adjective. There is really no wrong answer to what one tastes in a beer.
You said it yourself, the original pilsner had that piny flavor, and Pilsner Urquell is the original. Depending on your sensitivity to hops, you may get floral and not get piny. I get both. I know women will get piny. I'm slightly more sensitive to bitterness than your average craft drinker. Most women can't handle bitter. I don't doubt you don't detect piny.
I don't disagree. Variety is the spice of life is all, and as someone no longer fond of hops, the variety seems to be lacking of late. I can have Imperial Regal Monarchist Pale Ale (Now with Hopz(TM)) or Kiwi-Strawberry Hefeweizen.
I also understand that there has probably never been more variety in beers in all of history that there is right now, but you don't always have the choice.
Worst beer ever to cross my lips: Bud Light Lime in one of those semi-frozen aluminum bottle-cans.
You beat me to it, but to add my two cents: I don't see how one can characterize Stone's brews (especially their regular IPA) as overly aggressive on the hops. Their IPA, while quite hoppy by definition, is beautifully balanced; it's probably the "cleanest" tasting IPA out there, that I know of. It's what I recommend to people who are uneasy about the reputed bitterness of IPAs.
Even their double IPA (Ruination, or whatever it's called) is still very drinkable.
i remember seeing "authentic european flavor" on some godawful green 40 oz bottle. though it shouldn't matter if it's served correctly, wrapped in a brown paper bag.
and on the subject of belgian ipa's, i really like theirs (http://www.stonebrew.com/cali/).
Translation: skunky.
EDIT: Heh--coke to you, for #85.
I don't know a lot about Belgian IPAs, but I ordered whatever it is Haymarket in Chicago brews under that category, and was very impressed. Haven't had Stone's.
To experience these beers as the brewer intended they must be consumed fresh. Ideally, this would be within a month of bottling, but 3 months seems to be a reasonable cutoff.
I'm not sure, but it would surprise me if you couldn't get Leine's in NY. It's a pretty big brewery...I see it all over the country.
link
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