I'd have preferred if Arizona had moved, but I really don't see this as a huge deal. It was dumb to have a 14 and a 16 team league in the first place.

ding ding ding

Well, one could argue it is pretty dumb to have two 15 team leagues as well. Screws up division numbers, leads to wild cards and constant interleague games.

it would be a huge deal if it was YOUR team got shafted

real actual astros fans - it's a huge deal. as far as i'm concerned, this year is hospice for me. i am not going to Opening Day, for the second time in my life since my Mama first took me when I was 7. and i'm not going to any games neither, i'm not supporing jim crane in any way, may he roast in eternal hellfire and damnation

and as of the end of the 2011 season, i will not ay any more attention to the astros than i do to any other non-baseball sport.

all good things come to an end, they say. nothing i can do about it.

i can pick another team to root for, just do fantasy baseball like so many other guys do without having any real life team they root for, or i can find something else to do with my time. it is gonna hurt like heck for a while, then i suppose i'll get numb and life will go on - just like it has when any person or Dog i have loved has died.

and as for the supposed houston/dallas rivalry - cut the poopoo, please, ok? there IS no rivalry, there hasn't never BEEN no rivalry in ANY way and there won't BE any rivalry.

but larry is right - the usual groups of people who got no idea how many people are aactually supposed to be on the field at one time, will still go there ad drink the expensive beer and eat the terrible food. they don't know anything about baseball and they don't want to

whatevs

mccoy

i promise yo this crap is one of the last moves selig is gonna have to make before completely getting rod of the leagues and making everything just MLB - and forcing the DH down everyone's throat

whatevs - once they do that i won't care any more because there won't be any more baseball to watch

The only way I'd care if the Cubs were moved to the AL is if they got moved to the AL East and I would care because it would make winning harder. If they got switched with the White Sox in the AL Central I wouldn't really care. I'm a fan of my team not of who they play against.

Yeah if the Yanks were in the NL I wouldn't care much at all. It'd be weird, but I don't care about leagues. At all. Like, at all. This mindset I do not get. I will never give up my team until I die.

BBC, I mean this with no ill-will, and I know you're a valuable member here, but you're being way too overdramatic.

It's a baseball team. Nothing more. And comparing yourself to someone who has lost a pet is disrespectful and ignorant. Pets give back to people. Comfort them. Love them unconditionally. A pet can be your best friend. It's a two-way street. I am willing to bet that the Astros don't even know you're alive.

And before you reply that it's not my team, so I wouldn't know, I am a Seattle fan. I have had one team change conferences and one team relocate in the last decade. So I know what you're going through.

Hell, at this point if the Cubs left Chicago I'd probably still be a fan of the Cubs. I left the Chicago area so I can't see why they can't be entitled to as well. I do know I wouldn't become a White Sox fan.

and I know you're a valuable member here

If you think that now, just wait until the plague that wipes out all of humanity except for those with BBTF accounts.

BBC, whatever you do, just don't switch to the Cardinals. That's really my only thought on this matter.

as far as i am concerned, if a team has a DH it is not playing baseball. and i don't/won't watch it. i therefore HAVE no baseball team to root for from my home town

if the astros left houston and moved to el paso, as long as they were in the NL, i'd still be a fan

boxcutter,

i am a serious Dog lover and have had lots of Dogs and have grieved when they have died. i still haven't gotten over barry lamar Dog's passing on even though it has been almost a year now.

like it or not, my baseball team has been an important part of my life as well as an important connection with my mama since i was a small child. it's on death's doorstep and yes, i am grieving about that too. you think expos fans didn't grieve? or had no right to?

and i'm very confused - the mariners have been in the AL west since they came into being? what on earth are you talking about moving? and you will now have the houston whatevers as your great rivals starting 2013 - bet you all excited about THAT - well you should be - a perennially terrible team to kick

and i'm very confused - the mariners have been in the AL west since they came into being? what on earth are you talking about moving?

He's talking about the Seattle Seahawks of the NFL, who moved from the AFC to the NFC in 2002. And the other team he's talking about is the Seattle SuperSonics of the NBA, who moved to Oklahoma City in 2008.

vortex

oh

i really don't follow other sports. pretty soon, when bud selig gets his way and gets rid of the NL completely, there won't be any baseball to follow neither

shrug

times change and sometimes there's not one thing you can do about it, just move on and find something else

Now I know why I always get confused about the Seahawks. I always think of them as an AFC team and always scratch my head when I see them playing in the NFC playoffs.

I can't imagine a mindset that would let me dismiss my team. You could attack rockets to baseballs and I'd adjust.

blastin

you're a better man than me i guess.

my team will be gone in a year, so there will be nothing to dismiss. unlike you, i am not able to pretend that the imposter is my team

I don't get it at all. Mind officially boggled.

Rules change.




But I agree that the DBacks should have moved.

Dont forget its not just switching leagues that angers bbc its also who bought the team that has helped move the process to where it is

meatwad understands

i would suggest that you ne me run away together to pirates-dom but then i just remembered you have now got the awesome dale sveum as manager now and are sure to win the pennant, uh, i mean playoffs berths or whatevs now is teh kewl

blastin,

what don't you get? this is the last year of the astros. 2013 there will be no astros. there will be a team playing some other kind of game. it's not the astros

there is no reason to move ANYone

We have theo, he is dreamy

I can't imagine a mindset that would let me dismiss my team. You could attack rockets to baseballs and I'd adjust.

It is because AL fans have the baseball equivalent of Stockholm Syndrome.

True, DH baseball is better than no baseball. But DH baseball is *not* baseball. It is a bastardized form of the game, one where "efficiency" takes precedence over the inherent forms of difficulty that make the game as beautiful as it really is. The AL has been cheating since the early '70s, and as for me, if they make the Giants part of the DH league, I'm not going to never watch them again, but I sure will exercise my right to take other forms of entertainment much more seriously than a degraded form of my favorite sport.

bumpis hound

you took the words right out of my mouth

of course, i'm still too angry and depressed to express myself that well

maybe i'll start rooting for the giants. buster posey is dreamy...

Well I get being annoyed by the Crane thing. I can imagine hating Steinbrenner that much when he was mucking around in the 80s but I don't think I'd've left the team behind. However, the owner stuff, THAT I understand. I'm a Knicks fan after all (shudder).


I suppose I bristle at the idea that Edgar Martinez or Frank Thomas are not baseball players.

I'm too young to have lived in a time when the DH didn't exist. To me, it's a part of the game and I like it. I suppose I feel my view is being dismissed here, or that I like something impure. I love baseball. Please don't tell me I don't.

You know what, I love the freaking Dodgers.. alot.. the only folks that get more love from me are my immediate family (mom, dad, wife, sons, etc)..

If they moved to the AL West.. I would still love them. I don't give a good ####### about the league they play in. I think rooting for a league or division is stupid. Fark that old school "I have to root for my league". If the Dodgers aren't the NL rep, than I don't give a darn who wins the WS. More often than not, I am gonna root for the AL team (especially if the NL team is an NL west team). I don't freaking care if the NL team wins the WS unless it is the Dodgers and they haven't done that since I was 11.

I get the Crane thing. From all I have read, he is McCourt 2.0 and that sucks for Houston. Changing leagues is a relatively minor inconvenience, though. Baseball fans are drama queens. We talk all tough, but even when a WS is cancelled, we still come back.

When I see bbc's rants against the DH, it reminds me of young kids that has to eat broccoli. The broccoli gains mythic dimensions of vileness in their minds, wholly disproportionate from what disagreeable taste the little vegetable actually has.

So I guess I'll say: Try it, you might learn to like it.

it would be a huge deal if it was YOUR team got shafted

Not really? If the Jays moved to the NL next year I'd be fine with it. To compare to the Expos is absurd; I'm sorry that you don't get to watch Wandy Rodriguez swing the bat anymore, boo hoo.

When I see bbc's rants against the DH, it reminds me of young kids that has to eat broccoli. The broccoli gains mythic dimensions of vileness in their minds, wholly disproportionate from what disagreeable taste the little vegetable actually has.

Agreed.

I personally find it weird that people get so worked up about the DH. Maybe it's just me, but I really don't find the experience of watching an AL game to be all that different than watching an NL game. Having a preference, I understand; freaking out, I do not get.

Why does everyone think the D Backs should have been moved ? Because they are geographically closer to most of the teams in that division ?
(Except the Rangers of course)

Splitting hairs.

As for rivalry, they are born out of two teams being good at the same time and facing each other a lot. There won't be much of a rivalry until that happens. But if Houston turns it around and Texas remains a good team, I bet a rivalry WILL develop.

I personally find it weird that people get so worked up about the DH. Maybe it's just me, but I really don't find the experience of watching an AL game to be all that different than watching an NL game. Having a preference, I understand; freaking out, I do not get.

I will say that I prefer to play no-DH in video games since it makes managing the game slightly more interesting. That's about it.

Ok, this stuff about the DH is just asinine. It's still baseball.

Ok, this stuff about the DH is just asinine. It's still baseball.

Sure, it's technically still baseball. Like how Arby's technically serves food.

the usual groups of people who got no idea how many people are actually supposed to be on the field at one time

Question: Not counting the baserunners and the umpires, how many people are on the field at one time with the pitcher at bat? Is the number any different when it's the DH?

-------------------------------------------

I am a Seattle fan. I have had one team change conferences and one team relocate in the last decade. So I know what you're going through.

Not to mention that the Mariners were such a nonentity outside Seattle that when they first came to Baltimore in 1977, the Orioles scorecard still listed them as the "Seattle Pilots". Talk about disrespect.

How can anyone come to any conclusion other than the Brewers moving BACK to the AL being the right thing to do if we are going to insist on 15-team leagues? Bud's shamelessness makes my ass itch.

Why does everyone think the D Backs should have been moved ? Because they are geographically closer to most of the teams in that division ?

Kind of. The fact is, the AL did not handle expansion to the south and west all that well.

1) Creating the LA Angels was an obvious move, but only one team was on the West Coast.
2) The move from Kansas City to Oakland helped with that, but the Oakland market wasn't really much of a trade up from KC, and may have been worse. (A bit depends on whether one thinks Finley did a particularly bad job.)
3) The Seattle experiment didn't last all that long initially, and the AL was basically forced to put another team back there.
4) Arizona's owners didn't want to be in the AL, so where the AL needed two teams, they only got one.

In each case of expansion or franchise movement, the AL has tended to take a begrudging attitude to westward movement, outfoxed at almost every turn by shrewder NL ownership. OTOH, at every point when an NL team could have moved west to east (San Diego to Washington, San Francisco to Toronto), something happened to prevent it.

The practical consequence of all this is that there aren't really enough teams in the west for the AL. (Actually, there aren't really enough Mountain and Pacific time zone sites to make ten teams.) The AL generally has a less flexible set of locations. Here's a 15-team alternative for the NL, with Milwaukee going to the AL:

North
New York
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Chicago
Washington or Cincinnati

South
Atlanta
Houston
Florida
St Louis
Washington or Cincinnati

West
Colorado
Arizona
Los Angeles
San Diego
San Francisco

One just can't do anything like that for the AL. And if one moved an NL West team across, it really ought to be either Colorado or Arizona, so the time zones are more equitably shared.

But DH baseball is *not* baseball.

1869: Professional baseball is *not* baseball.
1893: Four balls for a walk and three strikes for an out is *not* baseball.
1939: Baseball played at night is *not* baseball.
1947: Baseball with black players is *not* baseball.
1950s: Baseball on TV is *not* baseball.
1969: Baseball with four divisions is *not* baseball.

We've been here before. We'll survive.

The Astros problem is that the team sucks and isn't likely to be good again in the next few seasons. The league change is going to annoy some people but I'd be very surprised if it has any effect besides maybe an extremely short term one (and I have my doubts there will even be that). The real fans will keep following the team and the casuals will come back when they're good again, same as would be the case if they stayed in the NL.

The later start times thing seems really overblown to me. Even if divisional games aren't reduced with the changes to the schedule then a max of 27 intraleague games (some of which will be day games anyway) will be in the Pacific Time Zone. Currently they play at least nine there every season plus at least six more in the Mountain. Interleague games would happen regardless of whether they made the switch or not so that doesn't matter. Texas plays those 27 west coast games every season yet they just signed a massive new TV contract; obviously the relatively small number of extra late starts isn't hurting them much.

as far as i am concerned, if a team has a DH it is not playing baseball. and i don't/won't watch it.

Did you really not watch the first two games the Astros ever played in the World Series?

But DH baseball is *not* baseball.

Bull-f*ck*ng-sh*t.

Everyone batting and playing the field is not the essence of baseball. Managerial strategy is not the essence of baseball. The essence of baseball is one guy throws the ball and another guy tries to hit and then some other guys try to catch it. The DH doesn't bastardize baseball any more than outlawing the spitball or lowering the pitcher's mound.

Did you really not watch the first two games the Astros ever played in the World Series?

Judging by the ratings, nope.

Why does everyone think the D Backs should have been moved ?

Because they have decades less history as an NL team than Houston, and probably should have been put in the AL in the first place?

Why does everyone think the D Backs should have been moved ? Because they are geographically closer to most of the teams in that division ?

Pretty much what 42 said. Basically, the teams that you wouldn't move, if you're a guy Bud Selig's age, are the original 16. I personally wouldn't freak out if the Reds were moved to the AL Central, but:

a) It would be pretty weird.
b) I think a lot of Reds' fans would freak out, at least temporarily.

My other team is the Padres, but I don't all that think many people here would freak out if they, rather than Houston, were headed to the AL West.

I think one disconnect in this situation is that Selig, being a guy in his 70s, still kind of sees the Astros as a "new" team. But to a lot of baseball fans under the age of 50 who actually live in Houston, the Astros are an NL team. The Diamondbacks are an expansion team.

The same thing applied in a different way when the Brewers moved the NL. Selig even said at the time that Milwaukee was an "NL city" because that is what it was he was young. KC was asked about moving first, but I would guess that people there think of KC as an AL town.

Hmmmm...I grew up in an era when it was two leagues, no divs, no DH, and the mound was, think, about eight feet high. Lots of 1-0 games and guys going 31-6 and ERAs in the low ones. Win your league, go to the WS, and all that.

Now we have "Astro“ turf, indoor baseball, games played almost exclusively at night, humidors, eleventy-three divisions, a team in another country, Latin and Asian players, some goofy thing called a "wild-card" champion, a third franchise in our Nations Capitol, second place teams winning the WS, steroids, strikes, and occasionally,a streaker.

Good thing I kept on watching. I wouldve hated to miss out on all the fun. ;)

Everyone batting and playing the field is not the essence of baseball.

yes it is. that's exactly what the essence of what baseball is. the AL introducing this gimmick to raise offense is a coldblooded business decision that strikes at the sporting aspects of the game. it's still watchable but it isn't baseball. don't get me wrong. i'm used to it. i'd still be a cards fan if MLB realigns and introduces the DH universally. but ... it ain't real baseball, the game we learned as kids.

whatevs - once they do that i won't care any more because there won't be any more baseball to watch

I've thought about this a lot for if/when the A's move to San Jose, or wherever the #### the non-Oakland, non-BART-able place they end up.
Checked on it last night, and turns out I don't have to go as far as Chico for indy baseball anymore - next year is the inaugural season for San Rafael Pacifics.
And if that doesn't work out, I'll probably go play in the Bay Area Men's Senior Baseball League. I like the sport too much to watch Bud Selig #### it up.

Also, I'm an A's fan, and I hate the DH.

yes it is. that's exactly what the essence of what baseball is.

Sorry, but no. The fact that you want to believe that the DH is a gimmick that was invented in 1973 doesn't make it true. The DH has been around in non-MLB baseball longer than that, and the rule differs at different levels and in different places. It was almost introduced into MLB in the 1920's. If that proposal had been adopted, practically no one alive today would think that pitchers hitting had a damned thing to do with the essence of baseball.

EDIT: very much analogous to robin's point about people Selig's age still viewing the Astros as an expansion team.

EDIT2: "the game we learned as kids" is kind of laughable in this context. The first experience most kids (even going back to my youth and I'm a pretty old fart) have with baseball usually involves thirteen or fourteen kids in the lineup and on the field at the same time. And as others have noted, the organized game as kids play it today almost always involves the DH in one form or another once you get past little league. And in little league, there's a freaking re-entry rule for cryin' out loud.

it ain't real baseball, the game we learned as kids

This has been pointed out so many times already, but why is the game you learned as a kid the definition of true baseball? The game I learned as a kid had the DH. The game that other people learned as a kid, long before you learned, you couldn't pitch overhand.

Not only that, but the game I played as a kid was wild and wonderful, with many variations, in it's unorganized sandlot incarnations. If there were only a few of us to play at the park (if we went to a park), we'd play a form of cut-throat, using only half the field. Or if the place we played at was neighborhood confined, the bigger guys had to bat from the opposite side. In really confined spaces, we used tennis balls and sawed-off broom handles instead of real baseballs and bats. To smaller kids, we pitched underhand. We made do. The idea was to have a great time. The main idea of even MLB should be, all business considerations granted and to one side, to convey that fun of baseball. One of the big things militating against that is the pace of the modern game--three and three and a half hour nine-inning games with the ninth inning lasting forty-five minutes (and this is when there's no scoring) is just a big turn off. Let's play, goddammit. Everything should have to do with actually playing the game--not stopping the action. It wasn't always like that and it doesn't have to be like that.

One of the big things militating against that is the pace of the modern game--three and three and a half hour nine-inning games with the ninth inning lasting forty-five minutes (and this is when there's no scoring) is just a big turn off. Let's play, goddammit. Everything should have to do with actually playing the game--not stopping the action. It wasn't always like that and it doesn't have to be like that.

There's an experimental rule in effect in the minors now, specifically aimed at moving the game along: a batter must keep one foot in the batter's box at all times.
Penalty is one strike.
I like it.

That's how college works (or did when I was there 15 years ago at least). It only applied when the pitch was not swung at. Not sure if it sped up the game, but it certainly wasn't a problem for the hitters.

guys........BBC has no argument. she knows she has no argument. you're not gonna convince her with logic. everybody's fanhood is at heart arbitrary and emotional; she's just more up-front about that aspect of fanhood.

50:

Sure. The rule should be strenuously enforced that the batter stay in the batter's box and the pitcher stay on the rubber. Furthermore, I don't think anyone (no coach no manager) should be allowed on the field ever--no conferences at th mound by players either--those guys should know what to do. Relievers should be signaled for; they should trot out to the mound, take three practice pitches so the catcher is primed, and that's it. None of this second warmup on the mound stuff.

This DH/pitcher-hitting stuff is strictly a mind thing--artificial and manufactured. It's like religionists arguing about transubstantiation and consubstantiation or infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism. .

This has been pointed out so many times already, but why is the game you learned as a kid the definition of true baseball? The game I learned as a kid had the DH.

Sometimes it had an EH.

You know, as an AL fan, I'm pretty ####### sick of NL fans acting like we have some kind of mental illness for not having a problem with the DH.

I'm an Astros fan, and I hate the AL move--but it's not because of the DH. I would prefer that the pitcher hit, but the DH isn't that big a deal for me. I hate the move because it was basically kicking a team while it's down and engaging in extortion to make a team give up its rights. When Crane set his price for making the move, it was basically the same as telling the fan base that he doesn't care what they think. It's the same as flushing 50 years of tradition down the toilet. Rationally, I understand that baseball is business and the ownership club is a den of thieves. But when you develop an emotional attachment to a baseball team, it comes as a shock when it becomes clear that the team doesn't care what it's fans want or think.

fra paolo,
Splitting up the Cubs and Cardinals is more preferable to you than the Astros moving to the AL?

You know, as an AL fan, I'm pretty ####### sick of NL fans acting like we have some kind of mental illness for not having a problem with the DH.

I'm not acting.

BE HERE ALL WEEK TRY THE VEAL GOOD NIGHT

Hmmmm...I grew up in an era when it was two leagues, no divs, no DH, and the mound was, think, about eight feet high. Lots of 1-0 games and guys going 31-6 and ERAs in the low ones. Win your league, go to the WS, and all that.

Now we have "Astro“ turf, indoor baseball, games played almost exclusively at night, humidors, eleventy-three divisions, a team in another country, Latin and Asian players, some goofy thing called a "wild-card" champion, a third franchise in our Nations Capitol, second place teams winning the WS, steroids, strikes, and occasionally,a streaker.

You forgot to mention players charging for autographs, new baseball cards that cost what an entire box of them used to set you back, stupid cartoony mascots, tiered pricing, John Sterling, teams that change uniforms every other week, and scoreboards telling you when to cheer.

Oh, and I shouldn't leave out two platoon football. Let's bring back those quarterbacks who could intercept the other quarterback's passes!

Good thing I kept on watching. I wouldve hated to miss out on all the fun. ;)

Yeah, me too, but I still miss those memories of Ryne Duren trying to bunt. That was an incalculable loss to humanity.

Morty: When I was a kid playing games like the ones you describe, we'd play for a lot longer than three and a half hours at a time; of course, we'd play a lot more than one nine-inning game.

Lassus: You forgot to remind them to tip their servers, thus making you history's 57th greatest monster.

I am confused - why is BBC not allowed to have an opinion? She expressed her opinion and how she plans on dealing with this change, and everyone is piling on. She hasn't tried to convince anyone else to do the same thing, she hasn't done anything but say how she feels. If you disagree, fine, but you can still respect her opinion and let her deal with it as she sees fit.

All of this is aesthetics. I grew up a Mariners fan, Edgar Martinez is one of my favorite baseball players ever, and I hate the DH. I hate the idea of platoon baseball. I don't like how much the DH takes away from the game. But I also understand that that doesn't bother some people, and they prefer to watch better hitters. If MLB abolishes the DH and some people choose to stop watching baseball out of protest, I am not going to start calling them names and denigrating their intelligence. It's all just aesthetics.

Of course, she's allowed to have an opinion. The only specific criticisms that have been directed at her have been about her being a bit over the top in expressing that opinion. The fact that her posts started an argument about the DH among others is not "piling on" her.

And just in case I have not personally been clear on this point: I am very sympathetic toward bbc and other Astros fans who are pissed about switching leagues. I just don't think the DH is the primary reason that they have for being pissed about it.

I am confused - why is BBC not allowed to have an opinion? She expressed her opinion and how she plans on dealing with this change, and everyone is piling on. She hasn't tried to convince anyone else to do the same thing, she hasn't done anything but say how she feels. If you disagree, fine, but you can still respect her opinion and let her deal with it as she sees fit.

No one's denying her right to her opinion. Most of us just regard her opinion as a little extreme and hard to fathom.

And I think it should be pretty obvious why anyone saying any version of "DH baseball isn't baseball" is a little irritating for those who don't see it as some monstrous thing worthy of scorn. You can be strongly anti-DH without saying stupid #### like that. (As you showed in your second paragraph.)

Why does everyone think the D'backs should have been moved? Because they are geographically closer to most of the teams in that division?

Either the Diamondbacks or Rockies should have been moved because then, with the Astros presumably headed to the NL West, you would have West divisions in both leagues with one franchise in Texas, one in the Mountain/quasi-Mountain time zone (that Arizona Standard Time thing) and three on the Pacific Coast -- perfectly sensible for interleague designated rivalries and such. Given that our three largest states (at least for domestic baseball talent) are now California, Texas and Florida, it's absurd that come 2013, both leagues won't have a presence in all three. (Perhaps someday there will be a huge population boom in San Antonio for some ungodly reason, and with the population growth and economic spurt, it could become a legit NL expansion candidate. No, I'm not counting on it, either.)

One more question for bbc: If the Astros moved to the AL, and that league for some reason decided to ditch the DH, would you support the team again? Or does Crane's ownership make you draw the line? (Enjoy the 50th anniversary year as much as you can -- one would guess they will find some way to honor the 1962 Colt .45s -- before divorcing yourself from the team.)

Morty: When I was a kid playing games like the ones you describe, we'd play for a lot longer than three and a half hours at a time; of course, we'd play a lot more than one nine-inning game.

And the action was continuous.

And the action was continuous.

Except for the inevitable stoppages to fish the ball out of the creak or dig it out of Mrs. Johnson's hedges.

I am confused - why is BBC not allowed to have an opinion?

She can have an opinion, and we can have an opinion about that opinion. I mean, this is a blog, right? If it's only uncontested assertions you want, check the bulletin board for the nearest Quaker Meeting.

Besides, this is bigger than the Astros and Old Fartism and New Fangleness. Her point exists separately and independently from her. One engages in debate not to convert the opponent, which in most all cases would be an exercise in futility, but to inform the world. And enlighten oneself: all arguments are ultimately with yourself..

Except for the inevitable stoppages to fish the ball out of the creak or dig it out of Mrs. Johnson's hedges.

And when you had to run away when a window was broken or the cops came to move you along because you were trespassing.

EDIT: Reminds me, one little guy (thin and small) was a most necessary designated player. He was the only one who could go into the curbside street drains to retrieve a ball. Very important guy, if one dimensional.

You know, I get both sides of the DH debate. But I think the idea that not wanting to see a pitcher flail is shortsighted. About half the DHs in the league last year were average hitters at best. If there were better guys out there they would have been found. Truth is, if your no longer capable or not athletic enough to field you probably can't hit either. Where ate 15 new DHs going to come from? I think it's pretty likely that the large market NL teams grab up the good ones and parity between them and medium to small market teams decreases as smaller markets have to make due with a below average hitter there. That's my problem with the universal DH. It's not a bad rule, but baseball isn't ready for it to be applied to both leagues.

it really ought to be either Colorado or Arizona, so the time zones are more equitably shared.

Because Arizona doesn't do Daylight Saving Time, it's effectively Pacific Time during the baseball season.

Arizona does't do DST? First, it's putting down the non-English speaking downtrodden taco benders, now this. I've just about had it with that so-called state. Signed...Abe Simpson.

I hate the move because it was basically kicking a team while it's down and engaging in extortion to make a team give up its rights. When Crane set his price for making the move, it was basically the same as telling the fan base that he doesn't care what they think.

While it's impossible to know what really went on behind the scenes from what we know I'm not sure that Crane should really be blamed for that. Indications are that Crane agreed to the previous deal with McLane knowing nothing about MLB deciding the Astros were moving. Then MLB stepped in and said that the Astros were moving to the AL and that's a condition of any sale. So Crane demanding the discount may have simply been a hedge against any short or long-term loss in value from the move. I think he could have acted as principled as he want in this and it wouldn't have made a difference, the Astros were moving and if he didn't agree they'd find someone who would.

fra paolo,
Splitting up the Cubs and Cardinals is more preferable to you than the Astros moving to the AL?

I have no opinion on that. I'm pointing out that the NL cities are better distributed across the country because those divisions make sense geographically. It was just an example. One could do something with Milwaukee staying in the NL and Houston going to the AL.

as far as i am concerned, if a team has a DH it is not playing baseball. and i don't/won't watch it.

You didn't watch the Astros play on the road in the '05 series?

EDIT: Coke to jmp. But it's a question I've been meaning to ask for a while.

And I think it should be pretty obvious why anyone saying any version of "DH baseball isn't baseball" is a little irritating for those who don't see it as some monstrous thing worthy of scorn. You can be strongly anti-DH without saying stupid #### like that.

That's silly. It's not stupid ####, it's a fact. The AL monkeyed around with the very spirit of the sport in an ill-advised attempt to increase scoring. Therefore, it is very much not baseball at its essence, as originally defined, and practiced for decades. A situation much like steroids, if you think about it, yet those of us who refuse to buy into it are somehow pariahs, railing against the "inevitable" movement towards a weird sense of efficiency and progress (which it's not, at all; it's a degradation), not willing to play along with those who are just sort of used to the status quo, why bother fighting it.

Plus, take away the DH and all of a sudden you keep BOS and NYY honest. They'd have 3-4 easier outs per game in their lineup, which would go a long way toward evening the playing field, so to speak. Instead of extra wild cards or salary caps or whatever, re-instituting the inherent inefficiencies would go a long way toward achieving a better sense of parity. Baseball is a game of inherent inefficiencies, there's no reason to eliminate them in order to make baseball more like softball.

The DH league is a sort of baseball-like substance. Close, and better than nothing, but still, there's no way NL fans should just shrug and let it take over the rest of the baseball landscape just because half the major league team's fans have bought into an inferior form of the game.

Nothing personal, but post 75 is a near-perfect illustration of Morty's point in 67. Every anti-DH argument in it has been addressed earlier in the thread, but this doesn't even merit acknowledgment much less counter-argument.

Putting all that aside, I'm fascinated to learn that only Boston and New York would have easier outs in their lineup without the DH.

The DH league is a sort of baseball-like substance. Close, and better than nothing, but still, there's no way NL fans should just shrug and let it take over the rest of the baseball landscape just because half the major league team's fans have bought into an inferior form of the game.

I'm not sure why the DH is inevitable in the NL. There's been interleague play for 15 years and the NL still has its own rules, and neither the World Series nor interleague play has been damaged by the home team rules applying. Live and let live, and if you think letting pitchers hit is essential to your idea of baseball, more power to you. Just leave the AL's rules alone in return.

No one has mentioned how the Astros move to the AL will affect TV and radio. Will we still be able to watch and listen to both the Astros and Rangers or will each area of the state become sole territory of one of the teams? The latter scenario would be bad for baseball and could lead to decreased baseball exposure in a football-dominated state.

Either way, Texas baseball fans won't be able to see NL baseball in person, whereas before, they could watch both the AL and NL or choose one of them. This deal is bad for regional balance.

Also, the Astros now have to add another full-time player to the roster decreasing payroll flexibility (when they actually get better players). I have no idea why any owners ever favored the DH, although I guess it did happen prior to free agency.

To #76: The more positions a team has to field, the more advantage the deep-pocketed teams will have as they have the ability to field more talent.

This has been pointed out so many times already, but why is the game you learned as a kid the definition of true baseball? The game I learned as a kid had the DH. The game that other people learned as a kid, long before you learned, you couldn't pitch overhand.

Agreed, the game many kids first learn has either no pitcher(T-ball) or has a parent pitching. Of course the first games we played as kids it was 5 players per team in a small backyard, using a tennisball and a duct taped wiffle bat. The essence of baseball is two teams versus each other in which the batter attempts to put the ball in play and the defense attempts to make an out, everything beyond that is effectively based upon house rules.

While it's impossible to know what really went on behind the scenes from what we know I'm not sure that Crane should really be blamed for that.

Agreed. As debated here at BBTF in countless threads, it seemed obvious back in July that the delay in approving Crane was all about realignment. As villains go, Crane ranks a very distant third in this deal behind MLB and McLane. A person would have to suspend disbelief to believe Crane had unapprovable character in August but was suddenly approvable in November, with a $70 million price reduction.

No one has mentioned how the Astros move to the AL will affect TV and radio. Will we still be able to watch and listen to both the Astros and Rangers or will each area of the state become sole territory of one of the teams?

I've asked at least five or six different sports business and MLB writers this question since August, and none have been able to provide an answer. It seems like Texas would be split into distinct TV territories, but perhaps MLB is making an exception. This seems like one of the biggest issues in the entire deal, one that could have the biggest impact on the Astros' fan base and new RSN, and yet no one in the media has even mentioned it. I guess they were too busy writing nonsense about how Crane's character was delaying the approval when it had been obvious for months that realignment was the holdup.

I don't believe it was a coincidence that the new CBA came together 3 hours after Crane was approved and 15/15 became reality. Despite all the predictions of a CBA during the World Series, it seemed borderline impossible to announce a new CBA before the Astros' situation was resolved.

To #76: The more positions a team has to field, the more advantage the deep-pocketed teams will have as they have the ability to field more talent.

Darn those rich Tampa Bay Rays. Always outspending that small market team in Boston.

To #76: The more positions a team has to field, the more advantage the deep-pocketed teams will have as they have the ability to field more talent.

Disagree.

The big advantage the rich teams have is getting the premier FAs. But there are only a handful of those guys.

TB can easily compete for the Johnny Damons of the world, but not for the Sabthias.

A smaller lineup/rotation would help the big market teams.

hello boys

it's like this:

1 - I am not a man and I am not your wife. I am not telling you how to think or what to watch. You want to watch DH ball, watch away. You want to prefer it, go ahead. Also feel free to watch football, golf, paint drying, whatever you wish. It's your life, your time and your opinion. You want to believe that DH ball is baseball, fine with me.

2 - That said, I believe that using a DH is cheating and not actually playing baseball, which, in my not exactly umble opinion, means that each person on the 9 man team is required to play both offense and defense or leave the game. This is the game I want to watch, and I freely admit to having watched each game of very WS, cheating or not, since I can remember. I don't watch interleague games in which the pitcher is not permitted to hit and some guy is not permitted to field.

CA,
the DH does indeed bastardize the game in a way that fooling with the mound, spitballs and steroids don't because the whole idea, to me, of the game, is that each player has to take his turn. You don't get to skip out at what you aren't any good at, any more than some husband is allowed to bring a prostitute home to do whatever his wife/gf doesn't like to do.

Swedish Chef, I have actually watched DH ball - at least 2 games of every WS is played like that. I do not like it and except for the Series, I won't watch it. Your use of broccoli as comparison is lousy - it is more like gay sex. I understand that some people prefer gay sex, which is fine with me if both parties are consenting. However, it just is not for me and you can insist all you want that I should like it just as much. But it is not gonna happen.

3 - I have no intention of giving up baseball. I will watch any NL game available. Should buddy boy achieve his dream of having every team play a DH, I will watch vintage games instead - when I have time. Or play learn to play OOTP or something.

4 - Kids' games are teh kewl. I play with my own kidz and their cousins and what we play is not real baseball, but it sure is a LOT of fun, especally when we have Dogs fielding.

5 - I take serious offense at the statements of some that the suckitudeness of my team has anything whatsoever to do with my refusal to support them in any way, shape or form once they stop playing real baseball. I would do the same if my team had just won the WS and was in position to be the best team in the majors for the next decade and had an owner who was actually a good human being - I'm beginning to understand the old Biblical proverb about it being easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich human to get into heaven.

Jim W,
you are dead wrong - most of the REAL astros fans have left, and the rest will be leaving at the end of the year. what is left are all the groups and casual fans, as i've said a zillion times.

6 - I understand that there are players like Edgar Martinez, David Ortiz and Frank Thomas, who are incapable of fielding. I have no objection to them hitting as PINCH HITTERS. It doesn't bother me one bit that this means they only get 1 AB/game instead of 4. It's their problem, If they were any good, they would be fielding, too. And if they can't manage to field even as lousy as mo vaughn, then forget the Hall of Fame.

And just hitting without having to field too leaves me cold. My youngest son can hit a baseball a long LONG way. But he can barely catch a basketball, he throws like he has his arm in a cast and he runs like a crippled hippo, so even if he was Barry Lamar with the bat, he wouldn't be a baseball player, far as I'm concerned.

7 - joe k

i was told by more than a few people - i guess they were lied to, also, that crane being a racist war profiteer was a problem for selig and not realignment - but obviously, not. Rangers will be on Fox, Astros will be on some regional network with the rockets that no one will watch and so it doesn't matter. nolan ryan already grabbed the mid-texas market when he took over the rangers and the austin AAA team, so really, the astros fanbase, of what little is left of it, is pretty much limited to harris county.

i keep saying - it doesn't matter because crane will make tons of money even if absolutely nobody sets foor in the stadium - see jeff loria. there is absolutely no reason for him to worry that his new team, which i am going to start calling the suck-ees, will have or won't have fans. just keep the payroll below 40 mill, refuse to sign any good prospects - see drayton mclane, and he has a recipe for lifetime suckage and wealth. and meanwhile, i will be cheering for the cards/braves - or maybe even dodgers, seeing how matt kemp sure would look great wearing a surfboard

You know, as an AL fan, I'm pretty ####### sick of NL fans acting like we have some kind of mental illness for not having a problem with the DH.

As an AL fan who doesn't like the DH, I would say there's plenty of AL fans acting like we have some kind of mental illness for having a problem with a one dimensional fat guy hitting instead of somebody who is on the field. Pro-DH AL fans are more than capable of being condescending about this issue.

I love how

You want to believe that DH ball is baseball, fine with me.

is immediately followed by

That said, I believe that using a DH is cheating and not actually playing baseball

It reminds me of the typical political argument around here: "If you want take [whatever] position on [whatever], that's just ducky. But everybody knows people who believe that are filthy scumbags."

the DH does indeed bastardize the game in a way that fooling with the mound, spitballs and steroids don't because the whole idea, to me, of the game, is that each player has to take his turn. You don't get to skip out at what you aren't any good at, any more than some husband is allowed to bring a prostitute home to do whatever his wife/gf doesn't like to do.

I'm no fan of the DH, but I'm now starting to see why some may find it appealing.

DB

On a more serious note:

3 - I have no intention of giving up baseball.

I am glad to hear this, as yours is a voice that I enjoy listening to, and one that I would surely miss were it gone from the BBTF scene.

DB

RMc

i believe that if you want to like what i think is crap, you have that right. but it doesn't make me think it's not crap. nor does it mean that i think you are a bad person - just have a bad opinion.

after all some women prefer plastic dolls to live men, right?

You don't get to skip out at what you aren't any good at, any more than some husband is allowed to bring a prostitute home to do whatever his wife/gf doesn't like to do.

The DH as prostie -- have never heard that angle in the debate before. Touche to bbc.

But DH baseball is *not* baseball. It is a bastardized form of the game, one where "efficiency" takes precedence over the inherent forms of difficulty that make the game as beautiful as it really is.

But using relief pitchers is *not* baseball. It is a bastardized form of the game, one where "efficiency" takes precedence over the inherent forms of difficulty that make the game as beautiful as it really is.

I would say there's plenty of AL fans acting like we have some kind of mental illness for having a problem with a one dimensional fat guy hitting

Yeah, it's pretty crazy to see C.C. Sabathia at the plate.

DB -

i guess i should have said: more than any WIFE is allowed to bring home something young and HOTTTTT to attend to the, uh, um, plumbing...

and thanks. you rock!!!!!

Oh, and I shouldn't leave out two platoon football. Let's bring back those quarterbacks who could intercept the other quarterback's passes!

Can we cut out the attacks on Lisa's dislike of the DH and talk about bringing back limited substitution football instead? I've never understood why football fans always get so giddy about micro-specialization and substitutions on every down. Bring back the 60-minute two-way men!

If we don't want to fight about that, we could all sit around and insult Crane and Ed Wayde.

Personally, if I ever get around to doing a wild-card era replay (DMB, Skeetersoft, Strat, whatever), I'm going back to four divisions. That being said, I doubt there is much Selig and his cronies can do to the sport to stop me from watching. Even my wife complaining about how boring baseball is (a shame, especially since she is from Taiwan, which has a great baseball culture) won't stop me.

"Darn those rich Tampa Bay Rays. Always outspending that small market team in Boston."

"Disagree.

The big advantage the rich teams have is getting the premier FAs. But there are only a handful of those guys.

TB can easily compete for the Johnny Damons of the world, but not for the Sabathias.

A smaller lineup/rotation would help the big market teams."

Tampa Bay is just smarter than the Red Sox and do a better job developing talent. That doesn't mean their task isn't more difficult the more positions they need to fill.
Tampa Bay can compete for the Johnny Damon-type free agents because that type of player isn't that great for filling your DH slot. I don't see how big spending teams wouldn't have an advantage for acquiring the less marquee players if they wanted them.
Imagine that MLB introduced a second DH slot. You don't think the Yankees would be a lot more interested in Pujols? Eliminate the DH and the Red Sox need to choose between David Ortiz and Adrian Gonzalez.

All this hand-wringing, teeth-gnashing, and wailing about the Astros moving to the AL, and how that means they'll have a DH and that isn't "real baseball" is so hilarious when you remember that the Astros invented playing baseball indoors and on fake grass.

DH? OH, THE HORROR!

A roof and fake grass?

That's perfectly acceptable, and in no way an abomination of the game.

RTG

fake grass was disGUSting, and a roof a luxury, but it did NOT interfere with the basic premise of the game, which is that EACH player must play offense AND defense.

fake grass was disGUSting, and a roof a luxury, but it did NOT interfere with the basic premise of the game

No wind? Insane bounces (and the ball that rolls forever)? Neutered weather conditions every home game? Dangling pieces of metal that interfere with the path of the batted ball? I'm pretty sure people ranted against that when the Astros started playing their version of "baseball".

And I assume you also railed against pinch-hitters, pinch-runners, late-inning defensive replacements, and relief pitchers who only faced one batter.

(Bastard Children, the Supreme Court declared long ago, have the same rights as legitimate children.)

A pitcher hitting is no more an intrinsic absolute than making a putout by throwing the ball at the runner was. Or any number of other things that used to be part of the game that no longer are. Everything changes. At one time pitchers were probably the best all-player on a team. Then as they got more specialized, and pitching was all they concentrated on, because it was all that was deemed to matter as to them (we only judge pitchers by their pitching), all talents peripheral to pitching deteriorated until pitchers were rendered de facto designated players. They were, and are, a joke. Indeed, they can be called Designated Pitchers, not players, except in name only as a hollow courtesy. Thus, to reconstitute the halves of a whole player, a designated hitter was called for. That's all. It's not a Biblical thing. But it does go back to Plato.

Having gone on record with the preceding, let me say that I have no problem with the NL maintaining its technical purity (I call it the Monica Lewinski Rule). The comparison serves as a fillip, sort of. It's just that this preening righteous air of the anti-DH-ers is silly and infuriating as scientific creationism, and like it can only be maintained by ignorance. They are like those absurd constitutional originalist and its finally ridiculous and insulting. But, like JOSN wrote upthread, the way things are has now existed for almost forty years, and it'll probably go on for another forty years. Indeed, as I've said earlier, it serves to create an interest that will evaporate as soon as one side absorbs the other. But, both are constructs. Entirely artifical creations. One appeals to the Daughters of the American Revolution type (who are haughty about a lineage that exists only through selective memory), and the other appeals to those of us Jane Austen parent-types who are relieved that an ugly daughter finally has a suitor.