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Tuesday, August 14, 2018

Latest bigotry reminds us that baseball is a white man’s game.

When Baltimore Orioles outfielder Adam Jones famously said two years ago that “baseball is a white man’s sport,” he was castigated in some corners, lauded in others, the bifurcated reaction a pretty reasonable foretelling of America today. Jones was right, of course. Major League Baseball is a white man’s sport. Its teams are owned, disproportionately, by white men. They are run, disproportionately, by white men. The league’s top executives are, disproportionately, white men. The power structure neither represents the labor pool nor the fan base – the latter of which is, in most places, overwhelmingly white, if not entirely male.

This article seems to be a bit overwrought in my opinion but I guess I am not “woke”.

spanx for the memories Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:48 AM | 319 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: atlanta braves, washington nationals

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   101. perros Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5726900)
Setting aside the obvious vested interest Mr. Cabrera has in convincing people that these things can't happen, all these things are saying is that it's unlikely. Unless you do a DNA test at birth and securely store it somewhere for later comparison, all you're really saying is that there's supporting paperwork. I mean, you might as well argue that Bernie Madoff couldn't have committed fraud because he was investigated a bunch of times by the SEC and they didn't find out anything.


Sounds a lot like Trump's extreme vetting argument, and to the same purpose.

Nobody is shocked Grandpa Simpson pulled another boner, nor is anybody suggesting some extreme punishment. Cabrera called for a voluntary one game suspension. Nor would I suggest I am above saying something dumb or offensive or prejudiced or bigoted because its incredibly easy (and human) to be thoughtless in one's remarks, even as a professional broadcaster.

What always gets me is the defense(-iveness) afterwards, the unwillingness to consider new information or a long history of discrimination against Latino players. Yes, DR agents took advantage of teams' overzealous pursuit of cheap talent in the past, a situation remedied to protect mlb in the present. But your phony rhetoric above is typically how you question facts not to your liking, and right in line with our current intellectual and political climate, including at bbtf.

I don't think I'm comfortable any longer participating on a board so overwhelmingly white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged, where it's still okay to pretend that's the unquestionable universal norm, where we get to sit in uninformed judgment of those both different and apart from us.

As a consequence, these aren't honest discussions.
   102. dejarouehg Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5726906)
As a consequence, these aren't honest discussions.


So it's honest to say that MLB has a long history of using Latino players as cheap labor, but it's not honest to reference the long history of Latino players lying about their age?

No doubt that efforts have certainly been made to cut down on it but you don't get to deny a historical and cultural pattern of behavior because it offends you any more than you get to rightly point out that MLB continues to use - actually more than ever before - Latino players as cheap labor.

Would it be racist to mention the obvious disproportionate number of PED cheats that are Hispanic?
   103. perros Posted: August 14, 2018 at 08:57 PM (#5726913)
a historical and cultural pattern of behavior


Once we discuss the redwood of American Exceptionalism and its underlying White Supremacy, maybe the splinter of Dominican kids subverting their economic exploitation can go next on the agenda.

But not with a bunch of white guys on an internet message board.
   104. spanx for the memories Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:01 AM (#5726988)
Since we now seem to be vetting every comment that is made about another country and culture, announcers won't be allowed to comment on Russian athletes that might or might not be on the juice correct?
   105. Leroy Kincaid Posted: August 15, 2018 at 06:11 AM (#5727004)
Since we now seem to be vetting every comment that is made about another country and culture, announcers won't be allowed to comment on Russian athletes that might or might not be on the juice correct?


It seems we're headed down a path where no one can say anything that anyone might find the least bit offensive. On the one hand, that's turrible. But if it forces announcers to STFU more, get off their soap-boxes, keep their opinions to themselves and focus on the game, the ends might justify the means.
   106. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 07:42 AM (#5727015)
I don't think I'm comfortable any longer participating on a board so overwhelmingly white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged


There’s always room for more trolls on 4chan. Half the posters there claim to be autistic too, so that should satisfy your need to stick it to those ableist forums.
   107. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: August 15, 2018 at 07:43 AM (#5727016)
Perros, this is not your responsibility, by any means, but:
Given that there are a great many perspectives that are underrepresented on this board, I hope that you stay to share yours (and post more often).
---
To everybody else:
This board suffers (and for a variety of reasons will continue to) from a lack of posters that publically identify here as women or POC or LGBTQ and so on (and this is more pronounced than it once was). If you care about that - and I do - it's worth thinking about why that is and doing something about it.

   108. RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:00 AM (#5727020)
Personally, I enjoy being overwhelmingly white, male, cisgendered, and (mostly) economically privileged.
   109. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:02 AM (#5727021)
Doing something about it? This board is dying a slow death, with no efforts to attract even new "white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged" members.
   110. RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:08 AM (#5727024)
This board is dying a slow death

Yeah, yeah, just like baseball and rock and roll and everything else that's good in life. Next!
   111. Lassus Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:14 AM (#5727025)
(and this is more pronounced than it once was)

I don't think that going from .2% female or queer to 0% is that much more pronounced.
   112. bunyon Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:40 AM (#5727033)
Doing something about it? This board is dying a slow death, with no efforts to attract even new "white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged" members.

There are good baseball stories posted but they don't get many comments. The board is too white, striaght and privileged. But, on that last, economically disadvantaged folks don't have the kind of time this takes.

I really enjoy the baseball talk here, still, but the politics is terrible. But it mirrors American politics in general. It isn't about ideas or policy, it's just people annoyed by people they annoy yelling at each other.
   113. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:48 AM (#5727036)
Doing something about: well, you can't add members, but you can act in a way that doesn't scare people off.

Politics: I used to, years ago, enjoy the politics threads. My complaint at the time was actually that it hued too closely to my own beliefs, I'd rather be challenged so that I might learn something. I now avoid them and spend less time here overall than I otherwise might.

(On the too white, cis, straight, middle aged, privileged bit: I'm those things. I get, or have, to hear myself all day, every day. It's nice to hear other voices!)

I will talk ideas and policy all day long. (Well, I once was willing to. The current political climate has weakened me a bit in that regard, sometimes you need respite.)

I don't think that going from .2% female or queer to 0% is that much more pronounced.
In percentage terms it is!

There are lots of decent reasons for this board to wither over time. "The people there are ######" shouldn't be one of them.
   114. winnipegwhip Posted: August 15, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5727074)
You go on the air 150 - 160 times a year for an average of 3 hours and try not to say something that will not offend a snowflake these days....good luck with that with the low thresholds of perceived offensiveness.

   115. SandyRiver Posted: August 15, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5727107)
I'd be interested to hear what some prominent Dominican players have to say about this age speculation. Like David Ortiz, Vlad Guerrero, Miguel Tejada, Rafael Furcal, Bartolo Colon, or Ervin Santana.

And speaking of Ortiz, imagine if one applied the DR age-fraud prejudice to his 2016 season, meaning that he led the league in SLG & OPS at age 42-43 rather than a mere 40. (Andy's personal example was better.)

Everybody's a racist, except of course for me and my friends. People like us just can't be racists, you see.

Or as Kipling wrote (and Ogden Nash augmented): "All are false save thee and me...and sometimes I have doubts of thee."
   116. perros Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5727121)

Perros, this is not your responsibility, by any means, but:
Given that there are a great many perspectives that are underrepresented on this board, I hope that you stay to share yours (and post more often).


I'm not trying to label this board's participants as terrible people, and I am very much a part of the demographic majority (maybe economically downscale by choice); not a small part is socially awkward, hyper-knowing, and temperamental, to put it nicely. And while I have friends, family, and loved ones outside the norms, there's something to the charge of virtue-signaling coming from someone not actually 'other'.

More virtue signalling -- I really want to listen and learn from other peoples, with other experiences. I'm positive I could learn a lot from many here as well, but everybody is in a crouch, locked and loaded, ready to fire when you see the whites of their eyes.... Me, too.

Only thing I'll add is try and listen to cultural voices that aren't merely echoing back your own. Is most of the media you consume look and speak like you? That last part is why I find myself feeling my time is best spent elsewhere.
   117. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5727127)
Nobody here has seen as many episodes of Soul Train as I have. Judging from the feedback I get on related comments, I doubt anyone has seen all 3 "Friday" movies or the first 4 "House Party" movies either. Put that in your pipe and woke it, honky,
   118. The Good Face Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:17 AM (#5727129)
Doing something about it? This board is dying a slow death, with no efforts to attract even new "white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged" members.


That's because BBTF's raison d'etre has essentially been fulfilled. The SABR revolution is over and analytics have won. Any interesting work still taking place is now being done by the teams and not shared with the public. So what's left to talk about in the world of baseball? A bunch of stuff everybody here already agrees on, or just fanboy crap.
   119. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5727130)
I don't think I'm comfortable any longer participating on a board so overwhelmingly white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged, where it's still okay to pretend that's the unquestionable universal norm, where we get to sit in uninformed judgment of those both different and apart from us.

As a consequence, these aren't honest discussions.


This doesn't make any sense.

Unless you're saying that there's something wrong with being white, male, cisgendered and economically privileged, what's the problem with the board being predominantly that? There are no barriers keeping anyone out. You sound like people who complain the NBA is too black.

If you can't make judgments about the behavior of people different from you, then there really are no honest discussions.

There's one truth, not a different truth for black, whites, and Asians. Likewise, there needs to be one set of standards for all people, otherwise pluralistic democracy just won't work.
   120. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5727133)
That's because BBTF's raison d'etre has essentially been fulfilled. The SABR revolution is over and analytics have won. Any interesting work still taking place is now being done by the teams and not shared with the public. So what's left to talk about in the world of baseball? A bunch of stuff everybody here already agrees on, or just fanboy crap.



Obviously the revolution has been won, but there's still lots of interesting stuff going on in baseball. Plenty of good writers finding interesting stories in the game, and plenty of interesting possibilities with the new data we have available. The fact is that this site hasn't engaged in any sort of outreach in over a decade, and that'll kill any community. Now the brains of the remaining members are slowly hardening. "Get off my lawn" threads about baseball's slow pace, or too many pitching changes, are by far the most popular.
   121. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5727149)
My complaint at the time was actually that it hued too closely to my own beliefs, I'd rather be challenged so that I might learn something.


Hewed.

Consider this an opportunity for dialogue and education.
   122. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5727153)
Nobody here has seen as many episodes of Soul Train as I have. Judging from the feedback I get on related comments, I doubt anyone has seen all 3 "Friday" movies or the first 4 "House Party" movies either. Put that in your pipe and woke it, honky,


I was the only white patron during lunch in a really good downhome soul food place in downtown Montgomery yesterday. (If dlf sees this, he'll probably know it -- Davis Cafe.) And I'll probably go back today. Take that, you walking bottle of Liquid Paper.
   123. McCoy Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5727156)
I'm not sure if this site ever did any outreach. The site is a link dump and has been for quite some time and has been pointed out people doing analytical research are either employed by teams or savvy enough to start their own site now. I mean the place could become a BPro of old or Baseball Savant or Fangraphs type place but that would radically change what this place is and has been for 15 odd years. BTF just happened to be lucky to be in the right place at the right time to have some analytical stuff posted but even back then it was never the bread and butter of this place.
   124. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5727157)
The fact is that this site hasn't engaged in any sort of outreach in over a decade, and that'll kill any community.


What was the outreach before that? Honestly curious -- I have no idea.
   125. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5727161)
I get, or have, to hear myself all day, every day. It's nice to hear other voices!

Sounds like an ad for dissociative identity disorder.
   126. perros Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5727162)
Unless you're saying that there's something wrong with being white, male, cisgendered and economically privileged, what's the problem with the board being predominantly that?


It's the unchallenged norm, the status quo. We're born on home plate and think we hit a home run.

There are no barriers keeping anyone out.


That you notice.

You sound like people who complain the NBA is too black.


It doesn't take talent to post here, nor is it competitive. If it were, there'd be a lot more value to the views expressed.


If you can't make judgments about the behavior of people different from you, then there really are no honest discussions.


Are you willing to be so judged, particularly participating as a small minority?


There's one truth, not a different truth for black, whites, and Asians. Likewise, there needs to be one set of standards for all people, otherwise pluralistic democracy just won't work.


The first step is to admit you have no corner on truth, that like-group consenses is a partial truth at best, and that pluralistic democracy doesn't exist without plural points of view, able to be both expressed and received.

Our current society is post-truth, led by a man who's exemplary in that regard, and utterly disdainful of pluralistic democracy. His rallies scare me more than 1,000 Charlottesvilles because they are One Voice of The Leader. Unbelievable to me that sane people are along for that ride.
   127. The Good Face Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5727163)
Obviously the revolution has been won, but there's still lots of interesting stuff going on in baseball. Plenty of good writers finding interesting stories in the game, and plenty of interesting possibilities with the new data we have available.


Then link to them, post about them. And if they've been showing up here to little reception, it's possible that other people don't agree with your assessment of their quality.

   128. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5727164)
What was the outreach before that? Honestly curious -- I have no idea.


I recall it being announced on Sean Forman's blog. Maybe it never did outreach, but at least for a while it was connected to the vital thinkers of the moment in some way.
   129. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5727167)
Are you willing to be so judged, particularly participating as a small minority?


All the time. As a Yankee fan who thinks the current economic system of Budshovism is an abomination and argues forcefully on this point, I am routinely insulted and my well-considered opinions misrepresented and marginalized by anti-Yankee Budshovik extremists.

Why do I persist? Because I'm not a sad-sack crybaby who needs constant validation from online strangers. I have 7 Twitter accounts for that.
   130. bunyon Posted: August 15, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5727169)
Yeah, I'm not sure there is a way to attract new folks at this point. It's mostly people who've known each other online for a long time chatting about baseball. About which we all agree on many things.

   131. McCoy Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5727173)
I recall it being announced on Sean Forman's blog. Maybe it never did outreach, but at least for a while it was connected to the vital thinkers of the moment in some way.

Back in the day Primer was linked to BRef with, um, a link at the top of the screen on BRef. People would be using BRef to do research and they would discover Primer and would occasionally put their stuff on this site. The powers that be back then would occasionally carve out a little space for their work. It wasn't often but Dial's stuff would get some space, Syzm would get some space and I think one or two more (Voros?)would as well every so often. But it wasn't large enough or regular enough to build anything with.
   132. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5727175)
Most people under a certain age seem to think that everyone over 50 (or even 40) is just one big mass of undifferentiated "old"


Playing online games with strangers and using voice chat is always an interesting experience. I joined one game where my three teammates combined ages did not equal mine.*
When I asked them how old they thought I was, they started guessing at 25 and kept going up. When they got to 35 and I said "older", they immediately jumped to "60?!".
I laughed and told them my age (47). "You're older than my dad!"

*Their reflexes were better than mine so their skill level carried me most of the match, but they did listen to me when it came to strategy because they really didn't have the attention span to properly plan stuff.

   133. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5727176)
*Their reflexes were better than mine so their skill level carried me most of the match, but they did listen to me when it came to strategy because they really didn't have the attention span to properly plan stuff.


What game?
   134. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5727179)
So what's left to talk about in the world of baseball? A bunch of stuff everybody here already agrees on, or just fanboy crap.


- I wish someone, somewhere, was tracking catchers blocking pitches in the dirt. Right now, they only indication is things like passed ball or wild pitch numbers, but we don't see how many pitches without men on base are blocked, or any recording of pitches that are blocked and don't allow a baserunner to advance. I think this is a part of catcher defense that is being unrecognized and could have a real effect on their defensive numbers.

- Similarly, how many times does a pitcher throw one that needs to be blocked by the catcher, and it isn't recorded as a separate stat? If you've got a staff of wild (but effective) pitchers, then maybe you strengthen your team more by getting a good pitch blocker instead of a pitch framer (or even a good thrower) at catcher.

- Failed bunts don't seem to be recorded as anything other than a strike, but after watching the Angels put down a great suicide squeeze a few days ago (and watching my Blue Jays fail miserably at attempting sac bunts) I would like to know which players really are better (success vs attempts).

   135. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5727183)
#133

Fortnite. I've been playing since September, and I'm not great (said reflexes) and I don't play enough to get MUCH better, but I have a couple of wins in solo and I'm a pretty good teammate in squads.

(Strategy in this case being "Wait for them to engage the other team before attacking" and "Let's go up that hill before taking a shot at that team over there". In most cases, they simply wanted to rush in and start building/firing.)
   136. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5727190)
#133

Fortnite. I've been playing since September, and I'm not great (said reflexes) and I don't play enough to get MUCH better, but I have a couple of wins in solo and I'm a pretty good teammate in squads.


I've never played because I'm not fond of 3rd-person shooters (same with Warframe, another free-to-play game) but my daughter (9) got a tutorial by a high-level Fortnite player at the eSports Arena at Luxor when we were in Las Vegas this summer and actually was doing pretty well once she understood the basics.

I don't understand why nobody has made an actual, or at least spiritual, successor to the 4v4 gameplay of L4D2, which is still very popular on Steam and retains a large community of players almost 10 years after the release. Vermintide got the 4-player co-op right but I want to play against 4 opponents all using small-squad tactics. Nuts.
   137. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5727195)
Are you willing to be so judged, particularly participating as a small minority?

As one of the few practicing Christians on here, I have been, over and over.
   138. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5727198)
Personally, I enjoy being overwhelmingly white, male, cisgendered, and (mostly) economically privileged.

#MeToo
   139. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5727201)
In most cases, they simply wanted to rush in and start building/firing.


Are they familiar with LeRoy Jenkins?
   140. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5727202)
Are you willing to be so judged, particularly participating as a small minority?

As one of the few practicing Christians on here, I have been, over and over.


You can tell he's sincere by the rapidity with which he climbs on the cross.
   141. The Good Face Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:00 PM (#5727208)
I don't understand why nobody has made an actual, or at least spiritual, successor to the 4v4 gameplay of L4D2, which is still very popular on Steam and retains a large community of players almost 10 years after the release. Vermintide got the 4-player co-op right but I want to play against 4 opponents all using small-squad tactics. Nuts.


MechWarrior Online offers 4v4, 8v8 (competitive play only) and 12v12 play. Based on/licensed from the old Battletech IP. Free to play, but not much grind by the standards of the industry. 1st person, but less twitchy than most shooters; relatively friendly for middle aged eyes/reflexes. Available on Steam.
   142. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5727211)
In most cases, they simply wanted to rush in and start building/firing.

Are they familiar with LeRoy Jenkins?


When I learned that video was fake it was the day my childhood died.
   143. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:11 PM (#5727215)
I don't believe it. It's too good.
   144. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5727217)
MechWarrior Online offers 4v4, 8v8 (competitive play only) and 12v12 play. Based on/licensed from the old Battletech IP. Free to play, but not much grind by the standards of the industry. 1st person, but less twitchy than most shooters; relatively friendly for middle aged eyes/reflexes. Available on Steam.


Never really got into the MechWarrior games, giant plodding robots just didn't tickle me. L4D2 is fast (not Unreal Tournament or Quake Champions fast, but still pretty fast) and I really like the dissimilarity between the two PvP teams and how it impacts strategy and gameplay. Thanks for the suggestion though, I'll check it out on Steam when I get a chance this weekend.
   145. The Good Face Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5727222)
Never really got into the MechWarrior games, giant plodding robots just didn't tickle me. L4D2 is fast (not Unreal Tournament or Quake Champions fast, but still pretty fast) and I really like the dissimilarity between the two PvP teams and how it impacts strategy and gameplay. Thanks for the suggestion though, I'll check it out on Steam when I get a chance this weekend.


One of the nice things about the game is different mechs have different speed and agility attributes. Some are plodding and function more like turrets in their gameplay. Others are extremely fast and nimble, suitable for the Red Bull and Ritalin crowd.
   146. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5727227)
In most cases, they simply wanted to rush in and start building/firing.

Are they familiar with LeRoy Jenkins?


Would it surprise you to know that all of them were probably born AFTER that video first came out (13 years ago)?
   147. Rally Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:28 PM (#5727231)
And speaking of Ortiz, imagine if one applied the DR age-fraud prejudice to his 2016 season, meaning that he led the league in SLG & OPS at age 42-43 rather than a mere 40. (Andy's personal example was better.)


Nah, he was only 39 and pretending to be an old man. (Ortiz is one of the guys whose originally reported age was revised downwards).
   148. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5727232)
Doing something about it? This board is dying a slow death, with no efforts to attract even new "white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged" members.

That's because BBTF's raison d'etre has essentially been fulfilled. The SABR revolution is over and analytics have won. Any interesting work still taking place is now being done by the teams and not shared with the public. So what's left to talk about in the world of baseball? A bunch of stuff everybody here already agrees on, or just fanboy crap.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Another reason this site is losing steam is probably that it doesn't have much of a social media presence or a great app / mobile interface (which is fine with me -- I prefer using the "full site" versions of most websites even on my phone). To state the obvious, this is a pretty old crowd. I was one of the younger members when I first joined at 21 or 22. Now I'm in my late 30s and still probably one of the younger members.

A lot of the early posters on this site came here from Usenet or the Rob Neyer Message Board at ESPN. I'm not sure where the next influx is going to come from, given that sitting at a computer isn't the predominant way that people are using the Internet anymore.
   149. Lassus Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5727237)
As one of the few practicing Christians on here, I have been, over and over.

Matthew 7:####### verse 1
   150. TomH Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:43 PM (#5727246)
112: "There are good baseball stories posted but they don't get many comments. The board is too white, striaght and privileged"

Huh?? We would have more comments on 'good baseball stories' if more people were non-white, trans, and economically distressed? Please tell me that's not what you meant.

I trey to stay off of the poli/social stores and respond to the baseball ones, but sometimes the poli-social comments contain the oddest analyses.
   151. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5727248)
Matthew 7:####### verse 1

Don't judge people, in terms of them being good or evil, damned or saved, absolutely.

But you can't just cherry pick verses. The Bible is full of examples where believers are called to judge actions. e.g. Matthew 18:15-17.

Which ties very nicely back to the original topic. By all means say Simmons' comments were insensitive, dumb, and could be interpreted as bigoted. Don't call him a bigot.
   152. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5727255)
But you can't just cherry pick verses.


Worth noting that the Catholics literally re-wrote the Ten Commandments to remove the part about "no graven images".

   153. Lassus Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5727266)
But you can't just cherry pick verses.

This might work on someone who didn't grow up Catholic.
   154. SandyRiver Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5727300)
Nah, he was only 39 and pretending to be an old man. (Ortiz is one of the guys whose originally reported age was revised downwards).

Assume this is snark. (BBRef lists birth date as 11/18/75.) Anyway, by the time he retired, he had the feet of an 80-year-old.

#151: Very well stated.
   155. TomH Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5727308)
agree with snapper, that Matt 7:1 is one of the top 5 mis-applied verses in all of Scripture. To throw it at someone because they call an action "wrong" in an attempt to show them the Bible does not justify their naming wrong as wrong would get you laughed out of any serious theological discussion.

It (the misapplication) is very often used by those who simply wish away any diety from imposing on their lives. But to be fair, it is also used by those who have been horribly hurt by overbearing so-called Christians stuffing their personal interpretation of theology down someone else's esophagus. I claim no insight onto how/why it was used here, but people ought to realize how silly it is to use in this way.


   156. McCoy Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5727315)
There is some mobile app mecha type game that was/is pretty good. Of course it is setup to drain your bank account with upgrades and such but as an actual game it was pretty fun. From what I recall you could setup a clan and play together. Haven't played it in about a year so I'm sure they've upgraded it and added more stuff. There was also a WW2 tank game that is pretty similar that was pretty popular. Those were much more my speed than twitchy 2 legged creatures running around a quick like.

I played them a few times several years ago and then somehow I've got this reputation from my wife that I play video games and that it is okay. She's fine with me playing video games. Thanks so much.
   157. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5727317)
This might work on someone who didn't grow up Catholic.

Well, if you read the Catechism, it judges the crap out of lots and lots of actions.

TomH, thanks.
   158. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5727318)
Judging people is what sets us apart from the animals.
   159. McCoy Posted: August 15, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5727324)
Cats judge you all the time. . . and find you wanting.
   160. Lassus Posted: August 15, 2018 at 03:03 PM (#5727329)
Vague phrases in another language applied differently for thousands of years are only right in only one possible way. I should have learned my lesson from 15 - 18 years of histrionic sermons. I'd be better off with Dream and Delirium of the Endless.


Cats judge you all the time. . . and find you wanting.

Already covered by the above, in Dream of 1000 Cats.
   161. TomH Posted: August 15, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5727343)
159, nice.
   162. Ithaca2323 Posted: August 15, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5727423)
Just to add in my two cents about the board...

I'm a relatively new poster who basically came about because of the HOF threads, which is still my favorite thing to discuss. Ultimately, I'm probably odd in that I don't really care much about the day-to-day goings on in baseball, as much as I do debating the bigger/legacy questions. Since a lot of this site is geared towards the smaller picture stuff, and HOF season only lasts about six weeks, I sometimes don't have much to add to posts
   163. Rally Posted: August 15, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5727453)
Assume this is snark. (BBRef lists birth date as 11/18/75.) Anyway, by the time he retired, he had the feet of an 80-year-old.


From minorleagueball.com

"In the spring of `97, David started going by Ortiz rather than Arias, after he brought the error with his name to Minnesota's attention. He was also nine months younger than listed in his official records."

Soto's a different case because times have changed. The U.S. Government has gotten a lot more serious about identity documentation and MLB has been forced to do so as well. I'd say there is less of a chance that Soto is a different age than his bbref page than the guy who previously had the best teenage batting season, Mel Ott.

It's a documented fact that if you look at the top Dominican players of the last 20 years or so, about half of them have had age revisions at some point. And with Ortiz and Beltre, it does not always happen to be a player claiming to be younger than he is.


   164. RMc Has Bizarre Ideas to Fix Baseball Posted: August 15, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5727478)
pluralistic democracy just won't work.

Obligatory.
   165. dejarouehg Posted: August 15, 2018 at 10:44 PM (#5727604)
It's a documented fact that if you look at the top Dominican players of the last 20 years or so, about half of them have had age revisions at some point.


Please do not resort to infusing objective data. It's been banned from campus safe rooms.
   166. greenback slays lewks Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:21 AM (#5727640)
Wasn't Steve Reed, of all people, also found to have fudged his age by a year? Google isn't helping me find such an old news story.
   167. spanx for the memories Posted: August 16, 2018 at 01:07 AM (#5727646)
Please do not resort to infusing objective data. It's been banned from campus safe rooms.


When in doubt use the Cartman defense " Screw you guys...I'm going home."
   168. SandyRiver Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:54 AM (#5727660)
From minorleagueball.com

"In the spring of `97, David started going by Ortiz rather than Arias, after he brought the error with his name to Minnesota's attention. He was also nine months younger than listed in his official records."

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, the article did not include the revised birth date (nor the erroneous one.) My guess is that, 21 years after the revision, BBRef has it right. But that's only a guess.
   169. Lassus Posted: August 16, 2018 at 08:15 AM (#5727667)
Please do not resort to infusing objective data.

While it could be true, saying something is a documented fact ("about half") without citing the documents is not in the same zip code as 'objective data'.
   170. Esoteric Posted: August 16, 2018 at 08:48 AM (#5727687)
As someone who used to post here all the time, and barely ever does anymore (but still checks in frequently to read articles and comments), three things killed this site: 1) politics (the political chatter is appalling and even when 'confined' to OT threads ends up infecting the entire site, and drove me away; 2) the glut of off-topic threads on things like basketball or soccer that always end up hogging the "most recent" slots on the sidebar instead of baseball stuff; 3) social media. I have Twitter now (@EsotericCD) if I want to complain about the Nationals or talk about baseball, and I get my fix that way. It doesn't completely replace the value of BBTF (the quality of the commentary here is far superior to anything you'd find on Twitter, and it helps that I basically 'know' almost everyone writing as a personality I've been reading for a decade), but it does replace it as a place I spend my time.

Finally, I've always felt like the site never recovered from that disastrous server crash that took the site down for a month before the start of, what was it, the 2013 season? Before that the place was hopping, and afterwards, it has always felt much more like a ghosttown. It never seemed to get back to where it was.
   171. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 16, 2018 at 09:06 AM (#5727702)
a board so overwhelmingly white, male, cisgendered, and economically privileged


Actual components of privilege:
Race 2%
Sex 2%
Orientation 1%
Economic 95%

Components as seen by the economically privileged:
Race 33%
Sex 33%
Orientation 33%
Economic 1%

   172. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: August 16, 2018 at 09:08 AM (#5727704)
the glut of off-topic threads on things like basketball or soccer that always end up hogging the "most recent" slots on the sidebar instead of baseball stuff


I'm curious about this (I regularly start the soccer thread so I'm biased) but why do off-topic threads that you aren't going into bother you? Your viewpoint is not at all unique on this one so I'm not being critical, just curious. Every day there are many articles posted here that I have little to no interest in, I just bypass those.

I think you're right about #1 and #3 is a really good point I hadn't considered. I basically don't read any sports media, I just come here and see what's going on. With Twitter now I get roughly the same experience and can customize it.
   173. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5727752)
Many use the sidebar as their primary means of navigation. I do. A few OT threads don't bother me, but when I see OT: Wrestling, OT: Video Games, OT: College Football etc in addition to Soccer, Politics etc it's bothersome because (a) I can't find baseball content and (b) it's clear that nobody else even wants to talk about baseball. Of the 15 I see at this moment, 5 are official OT threads and at least one (this one) is an off-the-rails discussion. There are 5 threads on recent baseball happenings, and they average about 8 comments per thread.

Actually the thread about the great throw by that Oakland rookie took off to 100+ posts, partly in a good way, partly via an extremely familiar argument with one of the site's incorrigible humbugs. So that's a grand total of one vibrant discussion of contemporary baseball, with a caveat.
   174. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: August 16, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5727777)
In the end, we never were able to find a workable revenue model and once we lost the original group of contributors over the first couple of years, we tended to have a net loss of talent from then on out. Our vision for the site eventually became what SBNation did, but I don't think we were the right people to get BTF to that point. Things escalated as politics permeated the site, we became known in the wider community as the baseball site that mostly has everyone screaming at each other over politics and a few of our contributors left because they were worried about being associated with the site.

I'll always have warm feelings for the site - like some others, it launched me into a real career I did not expect. But it's definitely in legacy mode these days, slowly burning down the years like a white dwarf star. This happened to a lot of Web 1.0 sites.

I still lurk in the Lounge, which is almost a completely different orbit from the main site these days. A lot of the people around I still see on Twitter and some of the old names pop up in FanGraphs comments.
   175. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5727786)
It would be terrific if we could attract Fangraphers over here - young fresh statheads. I love the content on the site but the commenting structure does nothing for me.
   176. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:07 AM (#5727819)
...the baseball site that mostly has everyone screaming at each other over politics...

But it's definitely in legacy mode these days, slowly burning down the years like a white dwarf star. This happened to a lot of Web 1.0 sites.


Yeah, this place is obsolete in relevance. There was an interesting picture comparison of the PGA gallery for Tiger Woods in 2002 and now where every single person was recording the shot on their phone.
   177. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5727850)
As one of the few practicing Christians on here, I have been, over and over.


But me and you kid can walk away, or still live in a mainstream where we aren't confronted by things we'd rather not deal with. There are guys like Rod Dreher proposing more drastic self-segregation, but again, it's not something he was forced into, but rather chose as a lucrative career move.

But yeah, there are storms in the offing that will require a choice of accepting one's place in a multiracial society where white Anglos are no longer the majority, or burying yorself in the backyard and stew in the mental illness of white supremacy like Michael Shannon in Take Shelter.

I know your stock answer to the horrfic Catholic coverup of child rape, but wouldn't it have been better to not only let criminal priests face justice, but the RCC to recognize a male-only celibate elite is a root problem? A NYT reporter made an excellent point that the pedophiles kept their practice going because the hierarchy all the way up ignored the celibacy rule themselves, with the superior option of gratifying their needs with adults of both sexes.

I don't expect privileged Americans to deal with any of these festering problems until they have no other choice to do so. The scariest thing is the same resisters are armed to the teeth, at the highest levels with thermonuclear weapons, and with the attitude that God will sort it all out in a Final Judgement.

At the very least, we have The Great Pumpkin as POTUS, thanks to all the fellow travellers.
   178. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5727855)
Actual components of privilege:
Race 2%
Sex 2%
Orientation 1%
Economic 95%

Components as seen by the economically privileged:
Race 33%
Sex 33%
Orientation 33%
Economic 1%


Yep, BBTF is now all about pulling stats out of one's ass in the name of politics.
   179. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5727871)
I just wanted to say that thanks to this thread I've had "White Man's World" by Jason Isbell stuck in my head for three full days. And I can still stand the song, which speaks to Isbell's strength as a songwriter.
   180. Greg Pope Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5727872)
three things killed this site: 1) politics (the political chatter is appalling and even when 'confined' to OT threads ends up infecting the entire site, and drove me away; 2) the glut of off-topic threads on things like basketball or soccer that always end up hogging the "most recent" slots on the sidebar instead of baseball stuff; 3) social media.

I'm curious about this (I regularly start the soccer thread so I'm biased) but why do off-topic threads that you aren't going into bother you?

Many use the sidebar as their primary means of navigation. I do. A few OT threads don't bother me, but when I see OT: Wrestling, OT: Video Games, OT: College Football etc in addition to Soccer, Politics etc it's bothersome because (a) I can't find baseball content and (b) it's clear that nobody else even wants to talk about baseball.

Second this. Actual baseball topics fall off the sidebar very quickly these days. The OT threads get a lot of posts, so they don't fall off. But they push the baseball ones down. Add in the Primer Dugout and the Omnichatter threads, and there's not much chance for a baseball thread to get traction.

Yes, I can ignore them, but they effectively make the sidebar about 5 articles long and so threads get lost.

I would love for an option to control which threads appear in the sidebar. Automatic would be great, but I would be willing to click on a "don't show me this thread in the sidebar" option for the OTP thread once a week.
   181. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5727875)
I would love for an option to control which threads appear in the sidebar. Automatic would be great, but I would be willing to click on a "don't show me this thread in the sidebar" option for the OTP thread once a week.
Or just another section elsewhere on the page for the various OT threads.
   182. bunyon Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:04 PM (#5727895)
I do think the sidebar is a problem but it isn't the fundamental problem. Baseball threads get a dozen comments or so while the OT threads get endless comments. That's where the interest is. When the lounge was exiled, a lot of people went with it and never came back here. Others, like myself, simply stopped going to the lounge at all. If the OT threads get segregated (which would be a logical move), the result will likely be the same.

There probably ISN'T a solution and, as Dan says, this isn't a money making operation for anyone. I do with the chatters and "true" baseball threads were more active but, they're not. It's impossible to impose any kind of rule that would force people to post in threads they don't want to post in.

As it is, every now and then, we still have a good baseball thread and the postseason chatters are fun. Good enough for me.
   183. jmurph Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5727915)
Baseball threads get a dozen comments or so while the OT threads get endless comments.

Yeah I suspect if the OT threads were eliminated or banned, there would be many fewer regular posters left. I post much more in the soccer and NBA threads because I am now more interested, broadly speaking, in those sports than I am in baseball.* But I like to discuss those sports with the many smart people who first came together here years ago to discuss baseball.

*Still interested in the Red Sox, but follow the league less than I used to. I'm sure I'm not alone in that category of people.
   184. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5727923)
I know your stock answer to the horrfic Catholic coverup of child rape, but wouldn't it have been better to not only let criminal priests face justice, but the RCC to recognize a male-only celibate elite is a root problem? A NYT reporter made an excellent point that the pedophiles kept their practice going because the hierarchy all the way up ignored the celibacy rule themselves, with the superior option of gratifying their needs with adults of both sexes.

The ongoing Church scandals are horrific. Full stop. Many many bishops and priest belong in jail. But, there is zero evidence that a celibate male priesthood is a root cause.

Other denominations with married clergy, and other professions with access to children and teenagers, have similar to much higher rates of abuse. Pedophiles are most often married men. Married men cheat with young women all the time. Male school teachers abuse at a much higher rate than clergy of any religion.

The current outbreak seems to be centered around the fact that priests who systematically violated their vows of chastity were allowed to continue in ministry, and rise up the hierarchy, abetting and covering up for each other. The fact that a large majority of these priests seem to be homosexuals shows that allowing them to marry would solve nothing.
   185. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5727929)
Other denominations with married clergy, and other professions with access to children and teenagers, have similar to much higher rates of abuse.


(statistics withheld)

The fact that a large majority of these priests seem to be homosexuals


Of course. Why are you so focused on the priests when you should be warning people about the homos?
   186. Baldrick Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5727963)
I didn't click on this thread for a while because it looked like an unlabeled OT:nightmare. Eventually gave it a look.

I've been here since well before the John F. Mabry thread, though never one of the more prolific commenters. The site was driven for a while by saber fights and steroid fights, but probably reached its peak in the late aughts when those things settled down a bit and there was just a nice big community of people talking about baseball, which could easily spin off into all kinds of fun little tangents. It's still got that feeling at times (particularly during the playoffs), but the room is a lot emptier than it once was.

As someone who enjoys a couple of the OT threads, I am certainly on board with a minor tweak to make them a bit less prominent. Allowing people to opt out from having them in the sidebar seems like an easy fix. Alternatively, the OT threads could all go in their own sidebar below the main one.

But the real problem is simply that once some people leave, the community is less exciting. Which makes it easier for others to step away. Once that sort of feedback loop kicks in, it's hard to arrest. Unfortunately.
   187. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5727972)
The current outbreak seems to be centered around the fact that priests who systematically violated their vows of chastity were allowed to continue in ministry, and rise up the hierarchy, abetting and covering up for each other. The fact that a large majority of these priests seem to be homosexuals shows that allowing them to marry would solve nothing.


That first part is what I suggested. Allowing clergy to marry would bring more socially and sexually stable individuals into the ranks. Letting women in would lead to even greater reform.

Central to all my arguments is admitting a demographically diverse group into broader power structures which are transparent to those led. Authoritarianism runs counter to that goal.
   188. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5727977)
That first part is what I suggested. Allowing clergy to marry would bring more socially and sexually stable individuals into the ranks.

But, that hasn't seemed to help other groups with married clergy avoid their own sexual scandals.

Letting women in would lead to even greater reform.

Impossible. It has long been decided that only men can be priests. The Church has no authority to ordain women.

It also wouldn't help. The Episcopalians have women clergy, and still have sexual scandal, and their denomination is in a death spiral.
   189. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5727979)

I would love for an option to control which threads appear in the sidebar. Automatic would be great, but I would be willing to click on a "don't show me this thread in the sidebar" option for the OTP thread once a week.

I would like that as well -- basically have two separate sidebar sections, so that you guarantee that a
certain number of non-OT Newsblog threads remain on the sidebar at all times.

I suppose you can Bookmark the baseball threads you're interested in so they show up on top of the OT threads on the sidebar. It doesn't necessarily tell you which ones are active, though.

Yeah I suspect if the OT threads were eliminated or banned, there would be many fewer regular posters left.

Maybe. I suspect if there were fewer OT threads, a number of people would post more on the baseball ones. But I'm not sure that we should care at this point -- if people like coming here for a basketball or soccer discussion why try to stop that? I still lurk in the Politics thread and the NBA thread from time to time, and even though I rarely post it's still an interesting discussion.
   190. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 16, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5727996)
It's impossible to impose any kind of rule that would force people to post in threads they don't want to post in.
Oh, vee haff vays.
   191. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5728017)
Started on this site as a teenager and I post a lot less often now for a few reasons...

1. Baseball, as a whole, isn't as interesting to me. I still follow the Yankees fairly closely (and my interest there dipped after we let Cano go, but has come back with the arrival of Judge/Sanchez/Bird/etc.) but oftentimes don't know what's going on leaguewide.

2. My interest is basketball has increased despite the Knicks' continued ineptitude, which is why I almost exclusively post in the NBA thread.

3. Related to 2, in the NBA thread we stick almost exclusively to discussing basketball, which helps because whenever I venture outside of the NBA thread I find myself really turned off by the politics/social views of (what seems/feels like) most of the people who post here.

4. A lot of the reaction to games/debating sports topics things I used to do here I can now do more easily on Twitter or group texts with friends.
   192. BDC Posted: August 16, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5728029)
I love baseball games, baseball history, baseball statistics, and also the way that baseball mirrors America and the presence of American culture around the globe. I don't draw lines around topics well. The one book that I wrote about baseball (mostly baseball fiction, of course) is also about sexuality, American exceptionalism, immigration, meritocracy, and the English language … I think a lot of y'all would hate it :)

As a result, BBTF has long been my favorite website because I can talk about all those things here, proceeding outwards from baseball. I don't talk about soccer or basketball or gaming (among other stuff) here because I don't know as much, or just lack the interest, but I can see why discussions of baseball lead toward all those things, as they do toward politics, history, or popular culture.

Ultimately, I think a common thread in a lot of comments here has been that some people do not like digressions. You open up a thread on infield shifts and it turns out to be about cholesterol. I think that's great but I can see why it annoys people. It may turn on whether baseball is inextricable from everything else in your life (such as cholesterol), or whether you enjoy baseball as a refuge from everything else in life. I belong to the former group but I can see the attitude of the latter.
   193. bunyon Posted: August 16, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5728042)
As usual, BDC makes an excellent post. I don't really get the antipathy to digression. Everything is connected so a discussion can go any number of ways from a certain starting point. I'm on another antiquated discussion board (that also thinks it's in decline) and the moderators there are brutally strict. Any digression, at all, even if still firmly in the same area as the OP, is quashed.

I will say that, as weird as I think that is, they keep any discussion of politics or religion out and it makes for a much friendlier environment. They have many, many more moderators than BBTF does.

Finally, BDC, you can't just drop that bit about your having written a baseball book with deviant sex and split infinitives and not give us an amazon link.
   194. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 16, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5728044)
I do think the sidebar is a problem but it isn't the fundamental problem. Baseball threads get a dozen comments or so while the OT threads get endless comments. That's where the interest is. When the lounge was exiled, a lot of people went with it and never came back here. Others, like myself, simply stopped going to the lounge at all. If the OT threads get segregated (which would be a logical move), the result will likely be the same.

From what I remember, the original idea was that the OT threads (all of them, not just the Lounge) were supposed to move to the forum area, but the politicos threw up such a stink about being exiled that they were allowed to remain on the main site. If you look at the forums, there are lots of subforum areas set up for different kinds of discussion, but only the Lounge was ever really used.

I've been around since Primer days, but don't post much anymore. I guess just life, or maybe I grew out of the need to express myself on every little thing. I still come to BBTF every day for baseball news (as a news aggregator, it does a pretty good job). I do miss the flourishing days of the game chatters, when there might be 300-400 comments for a lot of regular season games and >1000 comments for playoff games. It was like watching the game from a worldwide sports bar, with everyone able to weigh in and comment on what was happening. It made watching the game live seem more important, because you wanted to be a part of the discussion. Now, I don't go out of my way to see games, even as MLB.com/MLB.tv has made it easier than ever to do so.

Plus, honestly the place got so toxic for about 4-5 years that it became no fun to be here. The whole steroid thing that dragged on forever in multiple threads every day, and all the political stuff that created life-long hatreds that spilled into every other thread, it got very old very fast but was allowed to fester here far too long. Posters running rampant over the site, insulting everyone in their paths, and complaints to TPTB never seemed to result in any action. It practically took an act of Congress to get rid of kevin, who was openly threatening people. I'm not surprised that people within baseball (or people associated) who used to come here decided they no longer wanted to be associated with BBTF. I knew how they felt.
   195. Greg Pope Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5728055)
As usual, BDC makes an excellent post. I don't really get the antipathy to digression. Everything is connected so a discussion can go any number of ways from a certain starting point.


I don't have a problem with digression. In fact, I think that it's better than having the OT threads. If a baseball thread occasionally morphs into a basketball thread, that's fine. It's better than segregating it into OT:basketball because with a separate thread, you have people staying out of the baseball threads. OTP is a different animal, of course, and it is better off as its own thread.


A big example is the OT:Pop Culture thread. I think that's a huge mistake. Now any mention of pop culture gets shunted off to that, and the baseball threads are suffering (IMO).
   196. bunyon Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5728071)
I haven't ventured into OT:Pop Culture but I agree. If baseball leads to a music discussion, cool.

I'd argue that politics and religion should be kept off the board entirely at this point. Everyone knows where everyone stands and no one is actually arguing policy or principle. If someone only comes to BBTF for OT:P and leaves if it's closed, I don't see that as a loss to the community.

I actually like the NBA and soccer threads because, while I enjoy those sports, I don't know them well. So, when the World Cup or Champions League or NBA finals happens, it's nice to go there and find good discussion with people I have a history with.
   197. BDC Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5728072)
Thanks very much, bunyon! Yes, the book is called Making the Team: The Cultural Work of Baseball Fiction and is about 20 years old now. I guess it is still in print, but if you are interested, get it from a library or buy it used; it costs $53.85 new. This explains why I never get royalties, they never sell any new copies. Last year my royalty statement was for -$1.15.

   198. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5728077)
I never minded the digressions, either. I used to get some great music recommendations from this place, but that basically stopped when the Pop Culture thread was created.

A few people seem to have confirmed my earlier suspicions, which is that (1) We are getting older, and many of us post less than we used to as our other interests and responsibilities have changed. And there aren't many young people joining the site. (2) People are increasingly using social media and other forums to discuss baseball (or politics / pop culture / whatever they used to come here for). I like BTF in part because it affords a level of anonymity that those other forums don't, but it seems like that's less of a concern to many other people here, and certainly less of a concern to young people in general these days.
   199. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5728092)
I'd argue that politics and religion should be kept off the board entirely at this point.

I'd agree with that.
   200. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:39 PM (#5728102)
I do miss the flourishing days of the game chatters, when there might be 300-400 comments for a lot of regular season games and >1000 comments for playoff games. It was like watching the game from a worldwide sports bar, with everyone able to weigh in and comment on what was happening. It made watching the game live seem more important, because you wanted to be a part of the discussion.

I agree with you, but IIRC part of the problem was that many of those game chatters attracted virtually no attention, and having multiple chatters tended to clog up the Hot Topics sidebar. I may be remembering this wrong.
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