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Tuesday, August 14, 2018

Latest bigotry reminds us that baseball is a white man’s game.

When Baltimore Orioles outfielder Adam Jones famously said two years ago that “baseball is a white man’s sport,” he was castigated in some corners, lauded in others, the bifurcated reaction a pretty reasonable foretelling of America today. Jones was right, of course. Major League Baseball is a white man’s sport. Its teams are owned, disproportionately, by white men. They are run, disproportionately, by white men. The league’s top executives are, disproportionately, white men. The power structure neither represents the labor pool nor the fan base – the latter of which is, in most places, overwhelmingly white, if not entirely male.

This article seems to be a bit overwrought in my opinion but I guess I am not “woke”.

spanx for the memories Posted: August 14, 2018 at 10:48 AM | 319 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: atlanta braves, washington nationals

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   201. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:48 PM (#5728115)
I think that OT:Pop was considered something of a spin off from the OT:Politics thread, and wasn't an effort to scrub the baseball threads of pop culture discussion. But if this is permission to keep steering regular baseball threads off topic, I'll pledge to do so.
   202. dejarouehg Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5728135)
While the site hasn't been the same, it was tremendous fun being part of omnichatter during the Cubs WS run.

As a non-sabermetrically oriented fan, I see that the broad overall enjoyment of the game has gone down in the same inverse proportion as sabermetrics have been embraced and implemented. (Also there are a lot of Mets fans on this site that it too has probably had some minor effect.)

And the vitriol that posters here have for those of us who aren't sabermetrically inclined is a turn-off.

So congratulations(!) you won the battle but lost the war.

The altered game, which I still love, is just less fun to watch. The downtime, pitching changes, abundance of strikeouts, shift-induced reduced offense, etc., etc., just makes the game less aesthetically enjoyable. I think most people sense it and that filters down to this site where there is just so much less to speak on. (I agree with the poster who wrote about the enjoyment of participating in the HoF debates.)

Couple this with the end of the Cubs drought, the Red Sox winning 3 titles this century and two of the major story lines no longer exist (not to mention the CWS and SFG droughts ending,) and I doubt there will be much gravitation towards the long hardships of the Padres and Indians.

It's a shame because there's so much freakin' young talent in the game right now.


   203. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5728141)
I'd argue that politics and religion should be kept off the board entirely at this point. Everyone knows where everyone stands and no one is actually arguing policy or principle. If someone only comes to BBTF for OT:P and leaves if it's closed, I don't see that as a loss to the community.
Indeed. What absolutely amazed and baffled me was realizing that certain people were posting in OT:P but not the game chatter threads during the World Series games.
   204. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5728156)
The altered game, which I still love, is just less fun to watch. The downtime, pitching changes, abundance of strikeouts, shift-induced reduced offense, etc., etc., just makes the game less aesthetically enjoyable. I think most people sense it and that filters down to this site where there is just so much less to speak on. (I agree with the poster who wrote about the enjoyment of participating in the HoF debates.)

As a sabremetrically inclined fan, I agree with this. My interest in baseball is down b/c the product is less appealing.
   205. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5728161)
I quit OT:P and am a better man for it!
   206. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5728180)
sexual scandals.


Again, there are scandals like sexual harrassment, adultery, squashing rape investigations and the like, and then there is the systematic coverup of open pedophile rings, priests re-assigned within ministry, and stonewalling criminal investigation.

Child sexual abuse of the most heinous nature, enabled at the highest echelons of ecclesiastical authority. Stuff that guts any pretense to following the gospels, ministering to laity, or simple human decency.

Seriously, man, you wouldn't want one of these guys within a mile of your kids.
   207. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5728186)
I quit OT:P and am a better man for it!


Good for you! I dunno, I guess I like to argue with people and feel like I'm sparing friends and family.

Lame.
   208. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5728196)
Again, there are scandals like sexual harrassment, adultery, squashing rape investigations and the like, and then there is the systematic coverup of open pedophile rings, priests re-assigned within ministry, and stonewalling criminal investigation.

Child sexual abuse of the most heinous nature, enabled at the highest echelons of ecclesiastical authority. Stuff that guts any pretense to following the gospels, ministering to laity, or simple human decency.

Seriously, man, you wouldn't want one of these guys within a mile of your kids.


There's plenty of pedophilia and abuse of teenagers among other denominations. The idea that married men aren't pedophiles, or don't sleep with teenage boys and girls is just dead wrong.

Also, the crux of the sexual crisis in the Catholic Church is not pedophilia, it's ephebophilia or pederasty. The vast majority of cases involve teenage boys.

What do you mean by "one of these guys"? All priests? Because that's scurrilous. 95% of priests are completely innocent in this.

If you'd trust a teacher or a coach alone with your kids, more than a priest, you've got the odds way wrong.
   209. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5728199)
I quit OT:P and am a better man for it!

I quit too, but I'm the same miserable SOB. ;-)
   210. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5728204)
I highly recommend Robin DiAngelo's new book White Fragility if you have an open mind on race discussion. Admittedly not easy sledding.
   211. Lassus Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5728209)
There's plenty of pedophilia and abuse of teenagers among other denominations.

Awesome thesis. Top-notch.
   212. BDC Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5728212)
I think I enjoy baseball games as much as I ever did. TTO, shifts and other tactics & strategy don't have much impact for me. Baseball on the level of the single inning played is far more continuously the same sport over the past 50 years than a series of downs in football or a few minutes of basketball.

I would like to see a brisker pace. And I miss 1970s pitching-staff management, but that's kind of like saying I miss one-platoon football. The anonymous guy on the mound, whoever he is, is still doing pretty much the same thing that Steve Carlton or Tug McGraw were doing 40 years ago, and that's the part I like.

   213. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5728221)
Awesome thesis. Top-notch.

There is. This is a human race problem, not a Catholic priest problem. The way the Church covered it up is shameful, and despicable.

But, don't kid yourself that other organizations from local school districts, to youth sports, to other denominations, to clubs, and charities, haven't done exactly the same thing. Did you not see the U.S. Gymnastics/Michigan State scandal? The Church's failing is being just as bad as everyone else when it's supposed to be much better.
   214. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5728231)

If you'd trust a teacher or a coach alone with your kids, more than a priest, you've got the odds way wrong.


Like with so many issues, you miss the social context. Yes, people abuse power everywhere, always. But those are largely individuals. What the priests did is horrifying. Look up the PA grand jury report. But it's what the Church did as an institution that is so damaging, it's cavalier acceptance, its continual shuffling of priests to new parishes to abuse more victims, it's playbook to obfuscate its own role... the terrible damage its done to people in what it claims to be of vital importance -- faith.

Regardless, you and me are at its edges. The fate of the US Church lies in its central populations. Undoubtedly it does good work with immigrants.
   215. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5728235)
But it's what the Church did as an institution that is so damaging, it's cavalier acceptance, its continual shuffling of priests to new parishes to abuse more victims, it's playbook to obfuscate its own role... the terrible damage its done to people in what it claims to be of vital importance --

Yes. Awful. Truly awful. All I'm saying is that other institutions do the same damn thing all the time.

For the record, I'm not saying that less outrage should be directed at the Catholic Church. There needs to be a thorough housecleaning. Half the bishops and 5-10% of the priests have to go. The sooner the better.

What I am saying is that the same outrage should be directed at all the other institutions that have done and are doing the same thing. Look up what Corey Feldman has gad to say about a pedophile ring in Hollywood, and the death of Corey Haim.
   216. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5728240)
George stated, “He [Zirwas] had told me that they, the priests, would give their boys, their altar boys or their favorite boys these crosses. So he gave me a big gold cross to wear.” The Grand Jury observed that these crosses served another purpose beyond the grooming of the victims: They were a visible designation that these children were victims of sexual abuse. They were a signal to other predators that the children had been desensitized to sexual abuse and were optimal targets for further victimization.

   217. TomH Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5728243)
Do the NYYs have a third C? Romine and his lifetime 625 OPS is not who you want in the key PA of the game, eh?
   218. dejarouehg Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5728251)
I highly recommend Robin DiAngelo's new book White Fragility if you have an open mind on race discussion. Admittedly not easy sledding.


If we're going to have that open conversation, that everyone says we have to have but steadfastly avoid, can we please place on the agenda the stunningly disproportionate amount of violent offenses committed by minorities, especially against other minorities.

I'm willing to let it be lower on the agenda after how the racist the police are (which I completely agree with) and how decent law-abiding black men get completely screwed over in this country (which I also agree with).

Or perhaps this should go on the politics thread...............



   219. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5728256)
And the vitriol that posters here have for those of us who aren't sabermetrically inclined is a turn-off. 

Vitriol is unnecessary, but I (and most others here, I presume) originally came here to discuss sabermetrics with like-minded individuals. This site was the only place I knew of where I could do so. If I wanted to debate the merits of sabermetrics, there was the rest of the internet and my friends/family happy to argue with me that the way I viewed the game was wrong. The fact that the sabermetrically uninclined tended to feel uncomfortable here was a positive for me, even if it'd have been nice if we were a bit less obnoxious about it.

I don't view this place that way anymore. All the original content which I loved is gone, and I find the baseball discussions here to be a lot more baseball-centrist than it used to be (partly because the "baseball center" has shifted much closer towards the stathead side and partly because this place brings in no youth). And there are now a bunch of other websites for someone like me to go to read about baseball in a way that interests me.

I don't post much anymore, particularly in the baseball threads. In part because of what I said above. Also, because all the baseball threads these days seem to either die after 4 posts or turn into lengthy discussions where the same half dozen people complain about how they don't like modern baseball. And because I like talking about the Mets, and what was once an army of Mets fans here has been beaten down to just a handful of mercenaries who come and go randomly.

I'm not sure what could be done to rejuvenate this place without drastically changing what is. I took a break of a few months from here, and life continued. I came back, because baseball season started, and there are a number of people here I both like and find interesting. I am constantly reconsidering that decision though, because while I do enjoy reading what many of you have to say, discussion is always dominated by a small number of people who I find, um, tedious at best.

TL/DR: just let me ban people at will, and this place will be a modern utopia :)
   220. Hysterical & Useless Posted: August 16, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5728263)
some people do not like digressions


Tristram Shandy is on my personal short list of greatest novels ever, not least because it is probably the single most digressive novel ever written. A good digression--not complete non sequitors, mind you, but a spot where a topic legitimately angles off in a new direction--is life and music to me.

I've been coming here for close to 2 decades now, never posted much, but there are still so many people here of whom I'm extremely fond, some of whom I've never met, some of whom I strongly disagree with but find to be interesting and pleasant people. I very much hope we'll all be here lamenting the decline of the site 20 years from now.
   221. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:02 PM (#5728266)
If you'd trust a teacher or a coach alone with your kids, more than a priest, you've got the odds way wrong.
But, don't kid yourself that other organizations from local school districts, to youth sports, to other denominations, to clubs, and charities, haven't done exactly the same thing. Did you not see the U.S. Gymnastics/Michigan State scandal? The Church's failing is being just as bad as everyone else when it's supposed to be much better.
Yes. Awful. Truly awful. All I'm saying is that other institutions do the same damn thing all the time.

snapper: please seek counseling

what you are saying here is horrific. you need to talk through your moral upheaval with a secular therapist, because this "oh, everyone else rapes children, too" bullshit is completely ####### rotten.
   222. bunyon Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:08 PM (#5728272)
I think I enjoy baseball games as much as I ever did. TTO, shifts and other tactics & strategy don't have much impact for me. Baseball on the level of the single inning played is far more continuously the same sport over the past 50 years than a series of downs in football or a few minutes of basketball.

I would like to see a brisker pace. And I miss 1970s pitching-staff management, but that's kind of like saying I miss one-platoon football. The anonymous guy on the mound, whoever he is, is still doing pretty much the same thing that Steve Carlton or Tug McGraw were doing 40 years ago, and that's the part I like.


This thread has me considering my continued attraction to baseball.

1) Nostalgia for my youth and time spent with dad watching and playing.
2) What BDC says above: the game, on the field, is still beautiful and close to what it's always been. No, I don't like TTO but I expect this will cycle as it always has. If you pay attention, you get moments like Bote's the other night. Those were always rare but we didn't always have the chance to watch four games a day, which, I think, may dilute the great moments most of us grew up seeing only in replay.

What has decreased my interest in the game is more the constant GMing that goes on. Every broadcast has discussion of contracts and value and where players may go and what the draft will be and, for the most part, I don't give a tinker's damn about that stuff. Oh, sure, it's a little fun in the off-season but, in season, I want to watch games and talk about games and remember games. Payrolls and luxury taxes and "is this a good contract" is just crap to wade through and there is ever more of it.

I most enjoy games with the TV on mute. I should probably go to more in person. The local nine are having a good year.
   223. Greg Pope Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5728275)
what you are saying here is horrific. you need to talk through your moral upheaval with a secular therapist, because this "oh, everyone else rapes children, too" bullshit is completely ####### rotten.

I don't think this is fair. Snapper has been very clear that the Catholic Church is wrong, needs to be held accountable, etc. He also has said, basically, "there are others, too, that are just as bad that should also be held accountable".

   224. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5728276)
Look up what Corey Feldman has got to say
But his appeals to authority definitely need work.
   225. Lassus Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5728279)
And the vitriol that posters here have for those of us who aren't sabermetrically inclined is a turn-off.

I feel that while I am SABR-sympathetic, I am one of the least sabermetrically inclined people on the site. I happily contribute in the baseball threads and have never felt treated poorly.
   226. dejarouehg Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5728283)
What has decreased my interest in the game is more the constant GMing that goes on. Every broadcast has discussion of contracts and value and where players may go and what the draft will be and, for the most part, I don't give a tinker's damn about that stuff.


This is dead-on. Greg Amsinger, who I generally enjoy on MLB, loves to ponder the great conundrum of our times.........."IS Bryce going to get $40 Million per year?" as if that somehow alters the baseball experience. Why would I give a rat's ass? (I really want to see the MiLB players taken care of.)

If you pay attention, you get moments like Bote's the other night.
Yes, but I'd argue that analytics has taken some of the fun out of those moments. The occasional walk-off will always exist but the events that I lived for as a kid watching Seaver and Fergie, the shut-outs and 12K complete games (the rarity of a 50 home run season) are now just slightly more common than the cycle. Part of this is that what you enjoyed as kid usually gets romanticized but I really miss the style and pace of the 1970's brand of baseball.

   227. bunyon Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5728296)
Yes, but I'd argue that analytics has taken some of the fun out of those moments. The occasional walk-off will always exist but the events that I lived for as a kid watching Seaver and Fergie, the shut-outs and 12K complete games (the rarity of a 50 home run season) are now just slightly more common than the cycle. Part of this is that what you enjoyed as kid usually gets romanticized but I really miss the style and pace of the 1970's brand of baseball.

Yeah, but that's just cycle of life. Style has always varied in MLB and always will. I suspect we're getting to a point where TTO goes "too far" and some young enterprising team makes a splash by putting out a bunch of fast, high OBP guys who are great defenders. Everyone will copy them and then someone will win with a bunch of softball players. Etc.
   228. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5728297)

If we're going to have that open conversation, that everyone says we have to have but steadfastly avoid, can we please place on the agenda the stunningly disproportionate amount of violent offenses committed by minorities, especially against other minorities.

I'm willing to let it be lower on the agenda after how the racist the police are (which I completely agree with) and how decent law-abiding black men get completely screwed over in this country (which I also agree with).


Listening to a podcast on the RFK assassination, the El Lay cops substituted 'democrat' for '######', so yeah, there's a long history of racism there.

What DiAngelo would point out is that racism isn't a matter of good actors (liberals) vs bad actors (cops), but an overall system of white supremacy that privieges white folks over browner folks, along a continuum. Under that system, people play roles rehardless of individual attitudes or even race, based upon power. Was the black cop who sparked the Charlotte riot a racist? The black police chief in Baton Rouge who said 'Don't resist'? Mayor Wilson Goode when he burned down a city block in Philly, killing some MOVE children?

As for black on black crime, you could look at correlation with lower socioeconomic status, how much more likely black men are placed in the penal system from a young age when whites aren,t, or you could see (backed by fact) that black lives matter less in our society than white ones, no matter who pulls the trigger.

The US has a long, long history of denying civil rights to black folks down tothis very day. DiAngelo began her career as diversity teacher due to court ordered amelioration of discriminatory hiring practices. Can you really deny the deck has been stacked for whites and against blacks since the Founding Fathers? Yes, there was progress made through the civil rights movement, but there was a rather immediate political backlash and a long, steady rollback beginning with Nixon and standardized in every GOP campaign since.

Regardless of any facts or arguments I might give, the biggest roadback is the re-segregation of American society, to the point whites rarely have to deal with race and racial issues at all if they so wish. A real integrated discussion could be helpful, and my suggestion to read and listen to cultural voices across the color line is consciousness raising. But can you treat people of other races and ethnicities as your equal? When you pass a Black stranger on the street, do you turn and look the other way? If you are in a position of authority, do you ensure a diverse workforce?

Do you even consider that you are white and carry all the cultural baggage that comes with it? All this is the stuff of larger social forces and the sciences that study it, but as an individual realize you are more than an individual and were born into a system you did not choose and were formed by long before you could comsciously consider it or critically think about it. Now as an adult look at your country, your city, your workplace, and your surroundings and tell me what you see.
   229. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5728298)
I think we're largely on topic. OTP is WWI style trench warfare.
   230. Howie Menckel Posted: August 16, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5728300)
I don't think this is fair. Snapper has been very clear that the Catholic Church is wrong

that's a quote from the Pope in 223
#justsayin
   231. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: August 16, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5728309)
The fact that a large majority of these priests seem to be homosexuals shows that allowing them to marry would solve nothing.


Ever heard of gay marriage?
   232. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5728319)
Ever heard of gay marriage?

Just as impossible as female priests, within Catholic theology.
   233. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: August 16, 2018 at 06:36 PM (#5728326)
I don't think this is fair. Snapper has been very clear that the Catholic Church is wrong, needs to be held accountable, etc. He also has said, basically, "there are others, too, that are just as bad that should also be held accountable".

even if that's the case, there's no harm for him in talking about his feelings with a therapist. this is a traumatic event in his life, and he may still benefit from seeking professional help even if nothing is wrong.


also: that's not the case.
   234. Greg Pope Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5728343)
Just as impossible as female priests, within Catholic theology.

But this is where you lose me. I'm Catholic, but have never made any serious study of history, etc. People are proposing that the Catholic church change to allow marriage, female priests, and gay marriage. Why is the change impossible?
   235. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:02 PM (#5728344)
I'd be interested to see the data on "priests don't do it more often than others." I mean this as respectfully as possible, but it does seem that the job and its vow of celibacy are likely to attract ... uh ... sexually non-normal people.
   236. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5728358)
You can’t expect to have an honest argument with someone who will claim with a straight face that there is verifiable scientific evidence of crackers turning into meat after being blessed by a wizard priest.
   237. PreservedFish Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5728359)
Why is the change impossible?


I'm curious about snapper's response - he knows 10,000x more about the topic than I do. But I found this New Yorker article interesting. Pope Francis included a seemingly benign comment in a footnote (yes, a footnote) about perhaps being more lenient about allowing divorcees to take communion. tl;dr: some fear that this footnote will tear Catholicism apart. Overturning millennia-old precedents is not easily done.
   238. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5728375)
I'd be interested to see the data on "priests don't do it more often than others." I mean this as respectfully as possible, but it does seem that the job and its vow of celibacy are likely to attract ... uh ... sexually non-normal people.

https://www.newsweek.com/priests-commit-no-more-abuse-other-males-70625

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-myths-about-clergy-sexual-abuse-in-the-catholic-church
   239. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5728377)
being more lenient about allowing divorcees to take communion


Honestly, there's no priest stopping anybody from taking communion in most dioceses, leniency perhaps dependent upon the bishops.

Some years back, I returned for a spell and the priest didn't care about anything besides welcoming me back, even signing me up as a lector... besides being pretty strict about liturgy protocol and doing a good job.
   240. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5728383)
But this is where you lose me. I'm Catholic, but have never made any serious study of history, etc. People are proposing that the Catholic church change to allow marriage, female priests, and gay marriage. Why is the change impossible?

On certain issues the Church is bound by tradition. Dogma, doctrine, and consistent teachings can not be changed. It's part of the whole fabric of inspiration, revelation, and infallibility.

It has always been taught that women can not be priests. It was definitively stated by both St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI that the Church has no power to ordain women. No Pope or Council has the power to change doctrine.

The theology has to do with the role of the priest as action "In Persona Christi" in carrying out the Sacraments. The priest stands in the role of Christ, while the Church is the "Bride of Christ", men and women both. A female can't stand in the place of Christ.

Also, of particular note is that Christ ordained only men, and the Apostles who knew him followed in ordaining only men. Priestesses were common in many Mediterranean religions, but Christ choose not to make any.

Likewise it has always been taught, back to Jewish law, that homosexual acts are gravely sinful. As are all heterosexual acts outside of marriage. This also dogmatic, and can not be changed.

The Church can however, expand the ordination of married men. This is purely a matter of discipline. Eastern Catholics routinely ordain married men, and the Latin Rite has recently ordained married Protestant ministers who converted.

A priest however, can never marry after ordination. This is not allowed by Catholics or Orthodox, Eastern, Western, or Oriental.
   241. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5728390)
Implausible Defense]

So a study funded by the Catholic bishops found that there had been “plausible accusations” against 4 percent of priests active between 1950 and 1992. That end date is convenient: Wingert notes later, by way of trying to explain why priests seem to molest more kids than they actually do, that two-thirds of complaints against priests have been made since 1992. So a study that included all “plausible accusations” against priests since 1950 would likely produce a figure closer to 12 percent than 4 percent.



Wingert then compares this to estimates–including one by the person who did the bishop-funded study, though the reporter doesn’t note this–that 10 to 20 percent of all U.S. males have sexually abused children. Regardless of how credible these figures seem, they’re clearly not directly comparable to the John Jay number; there certainly have not been “plausible accusations” of pedophilia against 12 million to 24 million living American men. (Though Wingert seems to think that there might have been, writing that the 20 percent figure “may be low” because “only a third of abuse cases are ever reported.” So 60 percent of U.S. males may be secretly engaging in child sex abuse?)



For a more comparable figure, there were 60,749 perpetrators of child sexual abuse identified by the federal National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System in 2008; assuming these were all adult males, that works out to a rate of about 0.05 percent for that group. Now, that’s one year, not 42, but even if there were no recidivism at all, it’s still clear that the priests in the John Jay study were accused of molesting children at a considerably higher rate than that–and that’s a study that leaves out the bulk of such accusations.
   242. dejarouehg Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5728391)
Now as an adult look at your country, your city, your workplace, and your surroundings and tell me what you see.


If we're going to be completely honest, I see Asians who bust their asses in school to achieve to the point where many of the medical and financial professionals I now deal with are Asian. They are proliferating and prospering where I live and I think it's great. You add to the educational base of a community, then the benefits are endless, not to mention virtually no crime. And many of these folks had language barriers to overcome.

It's about education. Do blacks start off with a unique set of challenging/unfair circumstances? You bet but most of the money that Liberal/Progressive/Democratic policies have thrown at the issue has been wasted. (I'm not saying the GOP has any better plan or even give 1/3 of a S##t. I do think the Dems genuinely care for more than just political reasons although I'm not sure its much more than the political reasons.) But unless and until the AA community says we need to educate ourselves and fully take charge of that mandate, just like the Asians have, then they're doomed to permanent underclass status much like poor white Americans.

I mentor challenged (mostly minority) kids in several Long Island schools that are diverse and where the opportunity exists to get a very good education. The number of AA families where there are multiple children with different last names, no father, no money (according to the school,) but have cell phones, $150 sneakers, very pricey hair styles for the girls and other amenities that I know when I grew up poor I had no way to afford their equivalent, is the rule. This would be a virtually identical description of the hispanic students except most of them come from 2-parent homes. There is absolutely zero emphasis not only on education but why it's critical. And these kids are not stupid. They just get piss-poor guidance. Open school night/Parent-teacher conferences, they're no shows.

I asked one of the kids, who always has insightful topics to discuss and has a father who is clearly a very thoughtful black man who has suffered the indignities of racism and has very deep, meaningful discussions with his son, to give me the order of scholastic performance from best to worst by ethnicity. It was Asians, Jews, Caucasians, Hispanics, Blacks. When I asked why he thought Asians were at the top, he said because they're smarter and are more disciplined and then volunteered that Black students weren't disciplined when it came to education.

This is a kid with a high 70's average and mid-90's brain. I asked him if he thought it was unfair for AA students to have to sit through history where black are virtually ignored or certainly addressed in a non-contributory role. He agreed with me that this was absolutely the case.

As for working for me, if you want to represent my company, you need to speak clearly and (here comes the buzzword,) articulately. You want to hang sheetrock, you speak however you want as long as your pleasant and do your work. If you think that's a reflection of privilege, I could care less. There is a reality in the business world. You want to sound like Tupac, you'd better be a talented rapper because your not getting hired by a Wall Street bank.

When you pass a Black stranger on the street, do you turn and look the other way?
Let's be real honest here. Paraphrasing Jesse Jackson and Mark Cuban, if I see a group of black teenagers coming towards me I, depending upon how they're dressed, you bet I might be concerned. (Same if it's a group of Hells Angels.) That's the way it goes based on my life's experiences.

Here's the bottom line - being poor is not an excuse to commit acts of violence against any one and to say otherwise is horsesh**. Being poor may be an excuse to steal a bag of M&M's from the supermarket, but not to stab someone over them.
   243. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:47 PM (#5728395)
Here's the thing -- the RCC has covered up priests pedophilia, run a campaign to minimize its impact, moved priests from oarish to parish to re-offend, and done everything in its considerabe power to block release of reports like the PA one, and continue to deflect and deny even then.

Forget whether priests are more likely to prey on children -- the Church has enabled them to rack up an incredible victim count with no repercussions AT ALL.
   244. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 07:51 PM (#5728399)
Forget whether priests are more likely to prey on children -- the Church has enabled them to rack up an incredible victim count with no repercussions AT ALL.

Horrendous. We all agree. Heads need to role. No one is more upset with this all than faithful Catholics, especially faithful priests.

There is clearly a powerful faction within the Church hierarchy that explicitly condones and condoned sexual predation, and unchastity, especially homosexual unchastity. I would guess that most of those who shielded priests who were abusing altar boys had similar secrets of their own.
   245. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 08:00 PM (#5728416)
Read the full grand jury report

More coverage

Hundreds of priests named in grand jury report | Grand jury: A child porn ring in Pittsburgh diocese | Report says cover-up began at the top | Dozens of pages shielded from public | Maria Panaritis: Thank the law, not the Men of God | Victim: ‘It’s your word against God’s’ | Key findings from each diocese | How the Allentown diocese dealt with an abuser | John Baer: Questions in wake of the report


I'm not going to post the details, but you should read some of them. This wasn't isolated priests feeling up alter boys, but drugs, whipping, rape, recording it all, and marking the victims for abuse by othe priests in their sex ring. They weren't hiding, but sharing, intimidating victims, all with full knowledge of superiors, all with a sense of impunity, all with the attitude that priests are god's chosen, above the laity, and with the ability to absolve one another of these horrific crimes.

I can't add any more, nor read more excuses for the Church. Read the report, or the NYT coverage, not more cooked stories to the effect priests are just like everybody else.

Not what the priests believe, from the Pope down. Not what they believe at all.
   246. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 08:27 PM (#5728440)
his wasn't isolated priests feeling up alter boys, but drugs, whipping, rape, recording it all, and marking the victims for abuse by othe priests in their sex ring. They weren't hiding, but sharing, intimidating victims, all with full knowledge of superiors, all with a sense of impunity,

I agree. There were organized rings. Everyone involved needs to be purged from the Church.

all with the attitude that priests are god's chosen, above the laity, and with the ability to absolve one another of these horrific crimes.

No priests I know, and I know a lot, feel this way. Their vocation is one of service, not of power. You should go out of your way to meet some priests, most of them are really good.

The tragedy is the relatively small group of abusers insinuated themselves into positions of power, and other didn't expose them.
   247. perros Posted: August 16, 2018 at 08:33 PM (#5728446)
You should go out of your way to meet some priests, most of them are really good.


I've met a few, even had dinner with one. I appreciate intelligence and learning, and respect the commitment. I don't envy their voluntary separation from the laity, and am sure the majority are not only good folk, but done far more good than I ever will.

It's the institution, the hierarchy, the chosen by god thing. There but for the grace...
   248. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5728494)
It's the institution, the hierarchy, the chosen by god thing. There but for the grace...

Power corrupts, and the corrupt seek out power. It's no surprise that abusers seek out positions that give them access and protection.
   249. Greg Pope Posted: August 16, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5728532)

On certain issues the Church is bound by tradition. Dogma, doctrine, and consistent teachings can not be changed.


All of your points seem to boil down to this. Has no dogma, doctrine, etc. ever been changed? The church was pretty serious about the earth being the center of the universe back in the Renaissance.

Obviously Jesus changed doctrine, but by definition he's a special case. However, it was the apostles who allowed gentiles into the religion, and there was some debate over it. At least that's how I remember it.


I guess it just seems from the outside* like you're saying it's impossible to change, and when asked why, it's because it's just always been that way. Which doesn't hold water in any other endeavor. You say that they "can't be changed", but there's no actual reason why the ruling organization can't change.

*again, I'm a Catholic, but without any study since Confirmation 30 years ago
   250. Baldrick Posted: August 16, 2018 at 10:14 PM (#5728574)
199. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5728092)
I'd argue that politics and religion should be kept off the board entirely at this point.

I'd agree with that.

This was the high point of this thread.
   251. spanx for the memories Posted: August 16, 2018 at 11:49 PM (#5728633)
I started coming to this website around 2003 under a different alias and used to enjoy reading the some of the various topics for discussion such as "Moneyball" or roids or whatever the topic du jour was. I remember when some off these topics went on for days such as the Petco or the Mabry threads. There was events such as the one time a group of us met at a A's game vs Boston to talk about baseball which was great. I think my favorite thing on here was when a discussion would morph into something else like the Civil War or music or movies. Every once in a while I'll go over to the OTP thread to see if anything interested is being discussed but it seems like its always the same circle jerk of persons discussing old slights and arguments from months and years past. I always wondered what level of Dante's inferno the OTP thread would inhabit cause on some days it seems to be its own level of Hell. Anyway still enjoy coming on here and reading some of the stories and enjoy the chatters during playoff time.
   252. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2018 at 07:48 AM (#5728677)
I started coming to this website around 2003 under a different alias and used to enjoy reading the some of the various topics for discussion such as "Moneyball" or roids or whatever the topic du jour was.

For me, those steroids discussions were the closest thing to Hell I've experienced.

I do miss the digressions. It seems like the stakes in the OT:P thread are so high now that no one can relax and spend 8 hours talking about the history of flaxseed oil.
   253. Omineca Greg Posted: August 17, 2018 at 07:54 AM (#5728679)
It seems like the stakes in the OT:P thread are so high now that no one can relax and spend 8 hours talking about the history of flaxseed oil.

The floor in my kitchen and dining room is made from flaxseed oil. It's the best!

Sure, you have to wax it every once in awhile, but that's a small price to pay.
   254. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:22 AM (#5728681)
The floor in my kitchen and dining room is made from flaxseed oil. It's the best!

Sure, you have to wax it every once in awhile, but that's a small price to pay.

That seems handy. If your dinner gives you gastro-intestinal distress you can lick the floor for relief!
   255. BDC Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5728683)
The latest thing I read about flaxseed (linseed) oil is that Georgia O'Keeffe used so little of it in ratio to pigment in her paintings that they are presenting a challenge to conservators. The pigment in many of them is starting to flake away because there is so little medium binding it to the canvas. OTOH she would not have gotten her typical sheer, satiny effects without skimping on the oil.
   256. DavidFoss Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:49 AM (#5728695)
The latest thing I read about flaxseed (linseed) oil is that Georgia O'Keeffe

Huh. And just this morning, I was just reading that flax is one of the earliest known textiles. Wikipedia: "The earliest evidence of humans using wild flax as a textile comes from the present-day Republic of Georgia, where spun, dyed, and knotted wild flax fibers were found in Dzudzuana Cave and dated to the Upper Paleolithic, 30,000 years ago." They were domesticating and cultivating larger seed varieties as far back as 9000 years ago.

Georgia, Georgia O'Keefe? Coincidence? I think not! :-)

It's also a key part of two very early proto-indo-european roots: *līno- (flax) and *pleḱ- (fold). From those you get not only linen and flax, but also line, ply, plaid, -ply, -plex, ploy.
   257. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:55 AM (#5728698)
It's also a key part of two very early proto-indo-european roots: *līno- (flax) and *pleḱ- (fold). From those you get not only linen and flax, but also line, ply, plaid, -ply, -plex, ploy.

And, to keep the subject on kitchen floors, linoleum.
   258. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5728701)
I guess it just seems from the outside* like you're saying it's impossible to change, and when asked why, it's because it's just always been that way. Which doesn't hold water in any other endeavor. You say that they "can't be changed", but there's no actual reason why the ruling organization can't change.

*again, I'm a Catholic, but without any study since Confirmation 30 years ago


The reason that the Church can't change on core issues is that it presents, and has always presented, these issues as a matter of revelation, and logic. The core rules are either revealed by God (in various ways) or deduced through theological reasoning. No rule exists in and of itself, it exists as part of a body of thought, bound by logic. If you change a rule, the logic implodes.

More simply, the Church claims to be a divine institution, created by Christ. A divine institution can not have said "A" for 2000 years, and then all of a sudden say "not-A", and then the next Pope decides to go back to "A". Either the teaching on core matters is consistent or all the claims of the Church fall apart.

If the leadership Church changes a dogma or doctrine, either the current Church has lost the divine charter, i.e. they are heretics and not leaders of the real Church, or the Church never had a divine origin.
   259. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5728708)
I've been spending more time in the hardware store lately and I'm fascinated by a lot of the substances that are in common use. You can finish nice hardwood furniture with boiled linseed oil, or tung oil, molten beeswax - how long have these substances been in use? The tung is a Chinese tree - how did its oil find its way to Western civilization generally, and to my local True Value specifically? You've heard of shellac, but did you realize that shellac "is a resin secreted by the female lac bug, on trees in the forests of India and Thailand?" Carnauba wax, from a tree, and beeswax, from a bug, can be mixed with good results. Is there a family in Brazil that dominates the Carnauba market? Are there great Carnauba plantations with monumental Chateaux looking out over the endless rows of waving palms? Potential book topic here, folks.
   260. DavidFoss Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:36 AM (#5728716)
If the leadership Church changes a dogma or doctrine, either the current Church has lost the divine charter, i.e. they are heretics and not leaders of the real Church, or the Church never had a divine origin.

I understand that being a bit orthodox and steeped in tradition is part of Catholicism's brand, it is part of what separates it from other Christians. But it has changed in the past. Vatican II happened. Mass isn't said with the priest speaking only in Latin with his back to the audience anymore.

Catholics are also less linked to the Bible than most other Christians as well. Most of Catholicism's rules and teachings come from councils of bishops which occurred hundreds of years after the days of the New Testament.

They'll certainly want to be slow and deliberate about it, but they could certainly have a Vatican III and make significant changes.

   261. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5728722)
If the leadership Church changes a dogma or doctrine, either the current Church has lost the divine charter, i.e. they are heretics and not leaders of the real Church, or the Church never had a divine origin.


Surely dogmas and doctrines have been changed in the past.
   262. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5728724)
I've been spending more time in the hardware store lately and I'm fascinated by a lot of the substances that are in common use. You can finish nice hardwood furniture with boiled linseed oil, or tung oil, molten beeswax - how long have these substances been in use? The tung is a Chinese tree - how did its oil find its way to Western civilization generally, and to my local True Value specifically? You've heard of shellac, but did you realize that shellac "is a resin secreted by the female lac bug, on trees in the forests of India and Thailand?" Carnauba wax, from a tree, and beeswax, from a bug, can be mixed with good results. Is there a family in Brazil that dominates the Carnauba market? Are there great Carnauba plantations with monumental Chateaux looking out over the endless rows of waving palms? Potential book topic here, folks.

This has always been the most exciting thing about the European age of discovery. It must have been thrilling to keep bumping into totally new natural resources, products and production techniques.

I'm kind of bummed that I won't be alive for the great inter-planetary natural resource bonanza.
   263. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5728731)
If the leadership Church changes a dogma or doctrine, either the current Church has lost the divine charter, i.e. they are heretics and not leaders of the real Church, or the Church never had a divine origin.

Surely dogmas and doctrines have been changed in the past.


They finally ruled that the Jews didn't kill Jesus. Took the Holocaust to spur that bit of divine revelation though.
   264. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2018 at 09:58 AM (#5728733)
I've read a lot about the secret of the silkworm, and the spices of the Moluccas - but never about the Tung tree!
   265. DavidFoss Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5728734)
The cool thing about linseed oil is that you can eat it. Most monomers of plastics aren't edible. It is still used as a dietary supplement. It was a floorwax *and* a dessert topping -- centuries before that combination was cool!

Lineoleum was an invention by Frederick Walton in 1860. People knew linseed oil was a 'drying oil' that would polymerize, but he found a way greatly speed up the process. The neighborhood of Travis on Staten Island was originally called Linoleumville. Walton's company used 'lineoleum' as a trade name but they never formally trademarked it. Decades later, it became one of the first proprietary terms to be genericized (figured the lawyers around here might get a kick out of that).
   266. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:01 AM (#5728736)
And, to keep the subject on kitchen floors, linoleum.


Great first album -- one of the best of the '90s. Took me years to find the follow-up (import only); definitely an example of sophomore slump.
   267. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5728744)
Catholics are also less linked to the Bible than most other Christians as well.


A Methodist of my acquaintance who's devout enough to teach Sunday school seems to have about as much knowledge of the Bible as one of my cats, at least as compared to my atheistic self. Doesn't make her a bad Christian or anything else, but does make me wonder whether that denomination is markedly less Bible-centric than the Southern Baptist Church in which I was raised.
   268. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5728746)
Great first album -- one of the best of the '90s. Took me years to find the follow-up (import only); definitely an example of sophomore slump.

I was always partial to Weeping Tile, Sarah Harmer's pre-solo band.
   269. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5728751)
Yes, but I'd argue that analytics has taken some of the fun out of those moments.

If analytics has somehow taken some of the fun out of great moments like the Bote walkoff, that says more about you than it does about analytics.

   270. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:41 AM (#5728763)
Catholics are also less linked to the Bible than most other Christians as well.


To us Jews you're all a bunch of pagan fanfaction weirdos.
   271. bunyon Posted: August 17, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5728775)
To tie it all up, most American Christians know more about floor varnishes than the Bible. And take it more seriously.

And, at the risk of killing it via meta analysis, this has been great throwback BBTF.
   272. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5728778)
It has always been taught that women can not be priests. It was definitively stated by both St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI that the Church has no power to ordain women. No Pope or Council has the power to change doctrine.

Likewise it has always been taught, back to Jewish law, that homosexual acts are gravely sinful. As are all heterosexual acts outside of marriage. This also dogmatic, and can not be changed.

But these things have been taught by people who we now know aided and abetted decades (at least) of sexual abuse. They were either guilty of crimes themselves or were such terrible judges of human character that they failed to see the abuse happening around them. Why people should view their judgment as infallible or immutable when it comes to other subjects is beyond me.
   273. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5728779)
If we're going to be completely honest


First, I appreciate your response. I don't object to the facts you note, but suggest it was a pretty stereotypical response from a white racial perspective, and from your own experience. All I'm really suggesting is that you have one limited perspective and that many are needed from people of diverse backgrounds, as none of us was pulled from the head of Zeus and plopped down in 2018.

That my single black stranger turned into a group of black teenagers really brought me back to what I think is the most influential fact of human experience -- fear. Fear of death, fear of the stranger, fear of the unknown, accounting for crossing the street, police shootings (and exoneration), and violence in every area of human life, moreso when there is a scaricity of resources, including r-e-s-p-e-c-t. People walk around in a bubble of fear as a result, to trickle down effect.

Reducing fear, particularly through the open acknowledgement of its influence, would go a long way towards creating a more perfect society. A pretty big mountain to climb at the moment.
   274. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 11:41 AM (#5728783)
To tie it all up, most American Christians know more about floor varnishes than the Bible. And take it more seriously.


Nodding towards our ex-Baptist friend, mileage varies widely there. Hardly anybody reads beyond 280 characters these days. At best.
   275. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 17, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5728791)
Mad props for getting #274 inside the 280 character count.
   276. Greg Pope Posted: August 17, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5728845)
Snapper, I appreciate your response, and the discussion. I understand your position.

I don't really get how certain things fall into "impossible to change" while others don't, but it's not my place to decide that. I mean, I'm a Catholic, so I guess in theory I'd have a voice. And my beliefs wouldn't fall apart if the church ordained women or married gays.
   277. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: August 17, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5728862)
Finally! An answer to the question that has been bugging me all these years: "Is the Pope Catholic?"
   278. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5728866)
I don't buy his defense, but I appreciate snapper sticking to his guns all these years. In mostly reasonable fashion.
   279. Greg Pope Posted: August 17, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5728890)
Finally! An answer to the question that has been bugging me all these years: "Is the Pope Catholic?"


I knew it was a mistake to wade into this...
   280. Blastin Posted: August 17, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5728891)
I see it's time for me to represent all of the black people on here again. Let's see...

It's about education. Do blacks start off with a unique set of challenging/unfair circumstances? You bet but most of the money that Liberal/Progressive/Democratic policies have thrown at the issue has been wasted. (I'm not saying the GOP has any better plan or even give 1/3 of a S##t. I do think the Dems genuinely care for more than just political reasons although I'm not sure its much more than the political reasons.) But unless and until the AA community says we need to educate ourselves and fully take charge of that mandate, just like the Asians have, then they're doomed to permanent underclass status much like poor white Americans.

I mentor challenged (mostly minority) kids in several Long Island schools that are diverse and where the opportunity exists to get a very good education. The number of AA families where there are multiple children with different last names, no father, no money (according to the school,) but have cell phones, $150 sneakers, very pricey hair styles for the girls and other amenities that I know when I grew up poor I had no way to afford their equivalent, is the rule. This would be a virtually identical description of the hispanic students except most of them come from 2-parent homes. There is absolutely zero emphasis not only on education but why it's critical. And these kids are not stupid. They just get piss-poor guidance. Open school night/Parent-teacher conferences, they're no shows.


Dude.

Let's be real honest here. Paraphrasing Jesse Jackson and Mark Cuban, if I see a group of black teenagers coming towards me I, depending upon how they're dressed, you bet I might be concerned. (Same if it's a group of Hells Angels.) That's the way it goes based on my life's experiences.


My dude.






You guys have taken care of most of this. I'm not going into links to debunk your anecdata, and your "what about black on black crime" and your "it's just natural to be scared of several black men together" and your other stuff.

Just, well.

I shall match your anecdata with my own.

-black guy with never-married parents, who were usually too busy working to visit school, with a different last name from my sister, with relatives who've been in and out of prison, and lots of other things, from the county right next to Long Island, about to start my doctorate.

I sure hope you're scared of me. Intelligence is powerful and I have considerably more than you. I wish you'd stop tutoring black kids for as long as you have this mindset - why the hell did you ASK the kid which races were the smartest? No wonder the kid doesn't try very hard. And there are a lot of educators who think this way, and it sure doesn't help us have confidence at school. (Even though I AM a black teacher, I've still never had one, aside from a massive lecture with Cornel West.)

But for everyone else reading, black people KNOW all of these statistics. We know. "The blacks need to care about school." Most of us do care. Some don't. Poverty itself is no excuse, but the confluence of food insecurity, untreated mental illness and the effects of discrimination/redlining/many other things are a big reason for How We Are. We know. Thank you for your input!

That's my attempt to say something. I'm not going back and forth on our level of competence as a race.



As for the church. My wife's family is Catholic, so I get snapper's adherence to doctrine. I think it's all nonsense, but they just need to root out the rot and truly punish every guilty party. If people want to believe in all of that and it helps them, whatever.


   281. SandyRiver Posted: August 17, 2018 at 03:21 PM (#5728907)
I don't really get how certain things fall into "impossible to change" while others don't, but it's not my place to decide that. I mean, I'm a Catholic, so I guess in theory I'd have a voice. And my beliefs wouldn't fall apart if the church ordained women or married gays.

Most Christian fundamentalists take the Bible at its word, modified by the old timey rule for interpreting it: "When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense." Of course, there are passages which clearly are figurative (e.g. creatures with many heads and many horns), but they are in the minority.

That said, when the Bible is plain and clear on something, fundies (like me) consider those doctrines to be inviolate. Some relevant examples include the requirements than church leadership be "husband of one wife" (in 1st Timothy) and that God's plan for marriage is that it be one man and one woman (Genesis 2 quoted by Jesus in Matthew 19.) Scripture labels as sin any sexual intimacy outside of that plan. (And that's equally true for hetero and homosexual intimacy - the latter is named and/or described in a handful of passages. The former is named or implied in dozens; a good concordance will show scads of references to adultery and fornication, and when gender is noted in these passages, it's nearly always heterosexual relations.)

Unfortunately, many Christian groups, including some fundamentalists, have added layers of human tradition atop clear Bible teaching. Some have become convention, like the date of Christmas, but others merely confuse the issues.
   282. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5728918)
see it's time for me to represent all of the black people on here again.


How do you deal with people who refuse to see you as their fellow man? I'm kinda wrecked by the fact I can wash my hands and walk away if I like.
   283. Jay Z Posted: August 17, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5728944)
I am a Lutheran and have attended church for most all of my life. Grade school as well.

One of the pastors was a pedo. He was indeed the only confirmed bachelor of the lot. Which confirms the stereotype in the sample size of one. He was later encouraged to leave the ministry. As was the other one who cheated on his wife.

All other ministers were married with children. Including the women when I switched to ELCA. I guess I am not sure about one older woman minister. She retired early because she wanted to be more of a SHE than Lutherans want. One other left the ministry for faith issues. Everyone else came and left normally.

One teacher would have been a sexual harasser today. He was married and picked on girls. 5th grade. Couple of bachelor teachers but they both married later. One old maid teacher.
   284. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 17, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5728948)
I am a Lutheran and have attended church for most all of my life. Grade school as well.
You really should be out of grade school by now.
   285. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 06:06 PM (#5728957)
That said, when the Bible is plain and clear on something, fundies (like me) consider those doctrines to be inviolate.


Do Jews go to heaven?
   286. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 17, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5728958)
Do Jews go to heaven?
Yes, but there's revenue sharing in heaven. Terrible irony.
   287. . Posted: August 17, 2018 at 06:21 PM (#5728961)
But for everyone else reading, black people KNOW all of these statistics. We know.


How do you know the degree to which other black people know those statistics? I mean, there are a lot of really stupid white people out there who barely know what a statistic is, and I have no idea the degree to which other white people know this or that statistic.

Point being: I'm a pretty smart white guy and I really don't know that much about what other white people know. Why would you be any different? This isn't a challenge; I'm genuinely curious.
   288. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5728962)
ElRoy going back to back and belly to belly ...
   289. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5728964)
Terrific.
   290. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5728965)
And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.



Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.



And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.


Perhaps pedophilia is biblically sanctioned.
   291. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5728975)
Rod Dreher is a bit of the crusader and self-promoter, but believe he gets to the crux of the RCC scandal:

By no means do I believe that all priests are deceivers. I don’t believe that for a second. Some of the finest men I know are priests. My point here is simply that having to live at that level of suspicion about priests in general, and having to raise kids in a church environment in which I taught them, for their own good, to distrust the clergy in general before they learned to trust the clergy — well, it was more than my wife and I could manage.

To continue on as Catholics would have meant accepting that the bishops were going to get away with their lies, and were not going to be held accountable for what they had done. Cardinal McCarrick was the chief example for me. I had known about him since 2002, but couldn’t report what I knew to be true because none of my sources would go on the record. I knew him to be an outrageous liar. He had sicced an elite conservative friend of his to intercede with my editor at the time to get me off the story of his molesting seminarians. My editor refused, but in the end, without documents or people willing to go on the record, I had no story. Yet there was McCarrick, always in the media presenting himself as a good guy, one who could be trusted to clean up the scandal.

It was all a lie. Every bit of it.


Dante has traitors encased in a lake of ice in the ninth circle of Hell. He does this to represent the severing of all human bonds effected by their treason. Theirs was not a crime of passion, but one of cold deliberation. This is why the deeds of the bishops and their abettors, including prominent priests and laymen, were more damaging to my own faith than the vile sins of the sex-abusing clergy: because bishops were not driven by demonic passions. They could have stopped these evil priests, and thrown them out of the priesthood forever. They didn’t do so. Their hearts were cold towards victims and the laity, and they made their decisions to protect evildoers with stone-cold rationality. For them, it was just business.
   292. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:15 PM (#5729003)
Bad link for me in #291, perros.
   293. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5729008)
For me that was perhaps the most striking thing about reading Dante. The emphasis on community. The worst crimes are those that break the bonds between humans, and the greatest instrument of salvation is community (mostly through a community in prayer being greater than the sum of its parts - your prayers help both you and the other person).
   294. perros Posted: August 17, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5729012)
Dreher to be found at American Conservative.

The worst crimes are those that break the bonds between humans, and the greatest instrument of salvation is community (mostly through a community in prayer being greater than the sum of its parts - your prayers help both you and the other person).


The older I get the more I get it. The more I feel it, particularly that last sentence. Like it or not, we humans are all in this together.

The Life You Save May Be Your Own
   295. Jay Z Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:32 PM (#5729076)
The NT and Catholic elevation of celibacy/virginity is one of the more interesting religious developments.

The Levites, from my dim knowledge of Judaic law, had some restrictions on their behavior. But of course they married and continued the line. Judaism is at heart a tribal religion, not a creedal one, and breeding the new followers can't be overlooked. So the shift from that to the implication that celibacy is a desired state is interesting. It's not clear how Jesus would have been sinning by having a wife and children. Maybe take away from playing the end times card? Of course, it has been a while now...

Panreligionists that the Catholics are, of course they had to have it both ways. The informal tradition that one of your presumptively many children, produced by sex for procreative purposes only, would be on the priest or nun track. The rest, presumptively... less so. Having more procreative only sex instead.
   296. base ball chick Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5729079)
hello boys

long time no chat - don't guess i have been here since harvey passed - still miss the old coot

why? because, basically, no one really wants to talk about baseball any more. we won the battle of the stats, then, well, there hasn't been real too much to talk about, i guess

as has previously been said - just look at the sidebar - almost everything is (swear words) politics or some other sport. most of the posters i know have long since left

as for the Race Question - well, well, well

trouble is that people who are not Black somehow think they know it all and the Problem is that we are Shiftless and Lazy and Not Too Smart (i got that a LOT when i was first on this board)

i am tired of the mister schoolteachers complaining about girls with well groomed hair (which by the way, we can do our own selves) and how brothers and sisters have different last names - how about stopping the insistence that Black men, in general, belong in prison for stuff like BBQing While Black and Crossing The Street Wrong - so that our men can be home with their own kids. this is 2018 - cell phones are dirt cheap and NOT a luxury. you don't have a phone, you might as well be homeschooled and not let out the door

truth is, all yall KNOW this and some of yall like to comfort yourselves with the idea of - well, THose People are violent and shoot each other up so they are no good and besides, they don't act like asians so - now you see

as for the religion thingy
well
i consider myself a very religious Christian - certainly not a fundy

the ministers we have had have been decent men - far as i know, no raping children, no adultery with parishioners

as far as the catholics
well
seems to me that every Organization does everything it can to blame victims and coverup instead of dealing harshly with the evil doer/felon

i know about a person who stole a great deal of money from their church but the cops were not told because the church didn't want the scandal - so the thief got off (and you KNOW this person wasn't Black)

there are endless stories of pastors who tell abused women and raped children and females to - think of the men whose lives they would ruin if they told the authorities

all the same blame the victim for causing the perp to commit a crime

seems to me that



   297. base ball chick Posted: August 17, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5729080)
oh yeah

i LOVED how some threads would go way off topic and folks would discuss stuff like the civil war and WW2 planes and plants and linseed oil and stuff like that. even kevin talking about making furniture was interesting (crazy as that boy was)
   298. Howie Menckel Posted: August 17, 2018 at 11:53 PM (#5729128)
base ball chick - returns right when we need her most, which is exactly what a superhero does!

seriously, I think you can see that this site needs a reboot and well, bbc - I believe - is universally missed here. so help us out.

btw, "where is bbc, anyway?" has never gone out of style here. the Astros WS title didn't hurt, but it wasn't just that

and we all miss Harveys. too. no bullshit from him, either
   299. bookbook Posted: August 18, 2018 at 01:01 AM (#5729145)
Psychology Today’s article is a mess (making the apples to oranges comparison of the percentage of priests who abused vs the percentage of people who have been victims of abuse, among other flaws.)

Given that we know about a massive not-yet-resolved, institutionally-enabled epidemic of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, it’s hard to point to vague guesses for the “everybody does it” defense.
   300. perros Posted: August 18, 2018 at 01:12 AM (#5729147)
how about stopping the insistence that Black men, in general, belong in prison for stuff like BBQing While Black and Crossing The Street Wrong - so that our men can be home with their own kids.


Amen!
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