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Thursday, May 17, 2012

LATimes: Is this the dawning of the end of the Age of Mike Scioscia?

The firing of Mickey Hatcher, the voicing of criticism by Torii Hunter and Albert Pujols, the chill between Scioscia and GM Jerry Dipoto, the Angels’ poor record may all point to a new era ahead.

Tripon Posted: May 17, 2012 at 12:59 PM | 46 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, rumors

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   1. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: May 17, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4134005)
Can't see it. Doesn't his contract run though 2017 or so?
   2. phredbird Posted: May 17, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4134006)
i don't think its any big deal if the team's superstar can get the manager fired, since managers have a minimal impact on how good a team is, but if its albert and his fat contract that are pushing mike into the abyss, that's a shame. because albert is not producing, and isn't showing much of a sign that he's going to produce.

man, the cardinals are looking like geniuses right now.
   3. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: May 17, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4134016)
Really it might be time. They have a lot of good players and he's not getting much out of them. It's a lot easier to switch out the manager than turn over the roster. Nothing lasts forever.
   4. base ball chick Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4134041)
I wouldn't be totally surprised - I would guess that the beginning of the end was the getting rid of mike napoli/jeff mathis luuuuvvv and the ending up with vernon wells - all that looks BAD and the guys on the team would know if that came from scioscia telling the GM what to do. And mathis got traded away at the end of the year for some AAA pitcher - well, that sure looks like Dipoto telling scioscia a lil something.

It sure seemed that for years scoscia had complete control over who was or was not on the ML roster and arte moreno liked it that way.

But is is certainly more than possible that the expensive new guys, as well as the expensive old ones, are NOT happy with the manager. not everyone is bobby cox, who has only had a few guys he couldn't get along with. interesting about bobby cox - i have now had a few chats with former ballplayers who had him as a manager and when i asked a generic question like - how did you like him, i got real enthusiasm, not some expected bull durham answer like - well, he's a professional, knows his stuff, blahblahblah...
   5. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4134049)
This may be the least graceful headline I've ever read, Mr. President.
   6. Tripon Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4134058)
Here's the main thing between Scioscia and Dipoto.

When Scioscia met with the media before Wednesday's game, he held a red fungo bat so tightly he almost squeezed it into sawdust. He spoke tersely, letting everyone know that firing Hatcher was not his idea.

"We respect the job the general manager has to do," Scioscia said.

He scoffed at the idea that a change in the identity of the hitting coach would solve the Angels' offensive woes.

"We were not in an offensive funk because of Mickey," Scioscia said.

After four questions about the coaching change, he had heard enough.

"Anything about the game?" Scioscia said.

Dipoto did not claim that the Angels were in an offensive funk because of Hatcher.

"I think the world of Mickey Hatcher. I really do," Dipoto said. "Sometimes I do believe you need a different voice. This might be that time."

Scioscia's voice has been heard here as long as Hatcher's. Might it be time for a different voice in the manager's office?

"Mike has done a fabulous job," Dipoto said. "This is a reflection of where we are offensively. I'll leave it at that."
   7. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4134059)
If they do fire Scioscia, I hope the Angels are bold and hire a no-name as coach.

This is the dawning of the Age of Al Arias?
   8. base ball chick Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4134071)
Best i can tell, when the GM/owner start firing the manager's best buddies - bench/hitting/pitching coach, the manager must know that this is 3 envelopes time.

And also, i would say that any manager who is given zero to say about any of his coaches has little to nothing to say about anything else...
   9. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4134073)
Can't see it. Doesn't his contract run though 2017 or so?


Cots says 2018.
   10. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4134079)
If I were DiPoto I would absolutely give Scioscia the axe as he has too much influence on the franchise. Eventually it's going to be one or the other and if I'm DiPoto, I'd obviously prefer it be Scioscia.
   11. TerpNats Posted: May 17, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4134083)
You should have followed the lead of "Little Caesar" and wrote, "Mother of mercy, is this the end of Mike Scioscia?"

But I could see where Albert plays Pete Rose to Scioscia's Danny Ozark...however, is there a Dallas Green hanging around Anaheim?
   12. Srul Itza Posted: May 17, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4134102)
the manager must know that this is 3 envelopes time


I thought the joke was 2 envelopes.
   13. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 17, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4134105)
Pujols should be a player/hitting coach. Might as well get the most for your money.
   14. Zach Posted: May 17, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4134108)
Is the Age of Mike Scioscia before or after the Age of Aquarius?

Either way, I hope they don't all get naked at the end.
   15. Perry Posted: May 17, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4134120)

I thought the joke was 2 envelopes.


Nope.
1. Blame your predecessor.
2. Blame your staff.
3. Prepare 3 envelopes.
   16. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: May 17, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4134162)
Coming into today, Scioscia has a better career winning percentage than Sparky Anderson, Joe Torre, and Tony LaRussa, to name just a few guys.

I don't believe for a second he's in any danger right now, but if the Angels were stupid enough to fire him real soon, I believe about half the league would immediately start thinking about snapping him up as fast as they possibly could.
   17. Srul Itza Posted: May 17, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4134166)
The original joke only had 1 and 3.
   18. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 17, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4134177)
There's a zero percent chance Scioscia's job is in danger. Hatcher, on the other hand, has been the subject of criticism for years, so it wasn't exactly something new and shocking when he was getting criticized again this season. Also, let's face it, when your team is projected as a pennant contender and gets shut out in 20% of your games, changing the dynamic can't hurt.
   19. The Good Face Posted: May 17, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4134205)
I'm with 16 and 18. It's not Scioscia's fault Pujols forgot how to hit, and despite it all, they're not all that far back. It's early and there's way too much talent there for that team not to put together a hot streak that gets them in contention for a playoff spot.
   20. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 17, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4134206)
Greg Amsinger declaring the firing of Mickey Hatcher a resounding success after Pujols homered last night was some of the finest sarcasm I've heard on a studio baseball program. I'm not sure there's a member of the baseball media community who has taken greater pleasure in the slow start Pujols is off to than Amsinger.
   21. Perry Posted: May 17, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4134225)
I'm not sure there's a member of the baseball media community who has taken greater pleasure in the slow start Pujols is off to than Amsinger.


Isn't Amsinger from St. Louis? I think that came up during the WS last year.

EDIT: Answering my own question, yes he is.
   22. base ball chick Posted: May 17, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4134236)
My mama has told the 3 envelope joke for years - one of her favorites...

As for pujols being the cause of hatcher's firing - it's possible, see hanley ramirez and his manager - was it fredi gonzalez - and the player with the most money gets what he wants.

But if i was a betting woman, i would bet that it has a LOT more to do with jerry dipoto "telling" scioscia who Da Man around there.

The new hitting coach is an Organization guy too - and the angels seem to have forgotten how to hit today too.

And i see that CJ wilson isn't having a good time in his new home neither and can't nobody say somethin bout him not knowing the hitters
   23. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 17, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4134240)
Greg Amsinger declaring the firing of Mickey Hatcher a resounding success after Pujols homered last night was some of the finest sarcasm I've heard on a studio baseball program.
Pujols has just gone deep again ~430 feet. Big guy may be back on track.
   24. TDF, situational idiot Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4134258)
Coming into today, Scioscia has a better career winning percentage than Sparky Anderson, Joe Torre, and Tony LaRussa, to name just a few guys.
1. On the other hand, his winning % is lower than Davey Johnson, who's been fired by 4 different teams.

2. Anderson was fired by the Reds after 9 seasons, 4 pennants and 2 WS championships; his teams had a .596 mark while there (50 points higher than Scoscia's career %). Significantly, from Wiki:
When the aging Reds finished second to the Dodgers in each of the next two seasons, Anderson was fired on November 27, 1978[9] by general manager Dick Wagner, who had taken over for Howsam a year earlier. Wagner had wanted to "shake up" the Reds' coaching staff, to which Anderson objected, leading to his dismissal as well. (emphasis added)

   25. TDF, situational idiot Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4134262)
What's the "3 envelopes" joke?
   26. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4134269)
Isn't Amsinger from St. Louis? I think that came up during the WS last year.


Yeah, but he's surprisingly tolerable about it, even though it's often mentioned on the show.
   27. base ball chick Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4134280)
TDF

joke is - new manager walks in and the old manager, when walking out, hands 3 sealed envelopes to the new one. Old manager says - when you get in trouble, open these envelopes in order and follow the instructions.

first time new manager has trouble, #1 envelope is opened and the advice is - now that you are in trouble, put the blame on me. so the new manager does that and things get better for a while, but then there is trouble again.

So #2 envelope says - blame the staff. So that's what happens and things are fine for a while and then there's trouble again.

So the manager opens the #3 envelope and the advice says - prepare 3 envelopes (my mama tells it better, but she tells jokes great)
   28. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4134284)
I don't think you can have the "dawning" of the end of something.

This is either the dusking of the Age of Mike Scioscia, or the dawning of the post-scioscian era.
   29. Ebessan Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4134286)
The third envelope has a gun in it.
   30. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: May 17, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4134292)
On the other hand, his winning % is lower than Davey Johnson, who's been fired by 4 different teams.

Well, there are always dumb owners in baseball, and Davey Johnson has certainly worked for some of the dumbest. He is also well-known to be extremely independent minded and outspoken and not always the easiest guy to get along with. It has been common knowledge for many years that his reputation is why he has gone such long stretches out of a major league dugout despite being one of the game's all-time great managers.

I don't know what Scioscia's personality is really like, but I don't think I've ever heard a negative story about the guy, and he seems to me like a fairly easygoing guy. Pretty much every manager gets fired eventually, and he no doubt will as well, but I stand by my belief that if he got fired this season, he and his agent would be fielding multiple phone calls from other teams within a matter of hours.
   31. shoewizard Posted: May 17, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4134351)
Well, I guess Valuearb's concerns about Dipoto not being able to assert himself and just being Scioscia's lackey were not well founded. ;)

   32. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: May 17, 2012 at 09:12 PM (#4134446)
I don't think you can have the "dawning" of the end of something.


No beginning of the end for you, huh?

Also, isn't Scioscia's Lackey spending the year on Boston's 60-day DL?
   33. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: May 17, 2012 at 10:43 PM (#4134543)
What's the "3 envelopes" joke?

Fairly sure it's used as dialogue in the movie "Traffic" as well. Though not used as a joke.
   34. Jim Wisinski Posted: May 17, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4134569)
It seems likely to me that DiPoto just doesn't think Hatcher is the kind of guy he wants setting the tone for hitters in the organization and used this as an excuse to get him out as soon as possible. It's tough to get rid of a long-time coach that the manager fully supports but the lousy hitting by the team in general and Pujols and particular makes it easier. I agree with those that have said that Scioscia isn't on his way out (with the caveat that if he really starts to make a stink about the decisions that DiPoto is making that he disagrees with then he'll end up on the firing line). As long as Scioscia is willing to accept that the GM is the one with the real power in the organization now then he should be fine.

I agree with Joey that Scioscia would be able to get a new managerial job no later than the next offseason after getting fired if he wanted it. Considering that thoroughly underwhelming guys like Jim Tracy, Ned Yost, Clint Hurdle, Bob Melvin, and Eric Wedge all are currently on at least their second chance as managers there should be a lot of interest in someone like Scioscia.
   35. silhouetted by the sea Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:03 AM (#4134597)
You can't count Davey Johnson getting fired as the Reds manager as a a baseball decision. Marge Schott fired him because he was living with his girlfriend.
   36. BWV 1129 Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:58 AM (#4134607)
Scioscia is safe, and he should be safe. He's one of the top managers in the game, if not at the top. If everything stays #### this year and is #### next year, then we can start talking about a change. But there's no reason to doubt him or even consider dismissing him at this point.
   37. valuearbitrageur Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:45 AM (#4134626)
Well, I guess Valuearb's concerns about Dipoto not being able to assert himself and just being Scioscia's lackey were not well founded. ;)


He's clearly just going to extensive lengths to hide it.
   38. GregD Posted: May 18, 2012 at 03:20 AM (#4134629)
You can't count Davey Johnson getting fired as the Reds manager as a a baseball decision. Marge Schott fired him because he was living with his girlfriend.
Is this true?
   39. Dr. Vaux Posted: May 18, 2012 at 03:23 AM (#4134630)
It can't very well have been for baseball reasons, since he'd just won the division title in '95 and been in first place at the strike in '94.
   40. God Posted: May 18, 2012 at 05:15 AM (#4134648)
Scioscia had a good run for a long time, but if you've been paying close attention, you've probably noticed that he's not as laid back as he once was; he's a lot more prickly and defensive and perhaps even paranoid. You no longer hear his players raving about him. Like a lot of long-tenured managers do, he's become too set in his ways for his own good. I think one of the Bill James studies found that managers simply don't do as well after they've been in the league x number of years, because they become less open-minded, more reluctant to embrace changes in the game, and just in general start believing their own BS. it seems that unfortunately, Scioscia may be reaching this point.
   41. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 18, 2012 at 07:38 AM (#4134674)
I don't believe for a second he's in any danger right now, but if the Angels were stupid enough to fire him real soon, I believe about half the league would immediately start thinking about snapping him up as fast as they possibly could.


If the Angels were stupid enough to fire Eddie Bane as a scapegoat for Reagins, they're definitely stupid enough to fire Scioscia.
   42. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 18, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4135040)
Scioscia had a good run for a long time, but if you've been paying close attention, you've probably noticed that he's not as laid back as he once was; he's a lot more prickly and defensive and perhaps even paranoid.
I think part of it is that he's been there for a long time, they haven't gone to the playoffs two years in a row with a very high payroll after going six of the previous eight seasons, and the owner's getting antsy. Plus, they added Pujols and Wilson at great expense this past season. The expectation this season was to not just be competitive but dominant. When you fall that far short of expectations, you start having to answer a questions that are some variation of "Why do you stink?" It's easy to sound defensive when you are, heh, defending your guys.

That said, they've been playing better of late. Pujols has hit the ball hard the last few games. Mike Trout started off a little slow, then put up a 1.230 OPS in the ten games before last night's 0-4. Texas is probably already out of reach, but the playoffs are still a reasonable possibility.
   43. TDF, situational idiot Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4135093)
You can't count Davey Johnson getting fired as the Reds manager as a a baseball decision. Marge Schott fired him because he was living with his girlfriend.

Is this true?
That's the generally accepted story.
   44. Jim Wisinski Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4135096)
Like a lot of long-tenured managers do, he's become too set in his ways for his own good. I think one of the Bill James studies found that managers simply don't do as well after they've been in the league x number of years, because they become less open-minded, more reluctant to embrace changes in the game, and just in general start believing their own BS. it seems that unfortunately, Scioscia may be reaching this point.


Which is why I think that, as long as Scioscia can swallow his pride and accept that he's not in control any longer, DiPoto's takeover is likely to be the best thing for his future career with the Angels.
   45. BWV 1129 Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4135104)
And i see that CJ wilson isn't having a good time in his new home neither and can't nobody say somethin bout him not knowing the hitters

Wilson is pitching quite well. His ERA+ sits at 112, he's striking out nearly a man per inning, and his K:BB ratio only dipped below 2:1 after a bad start yesterday. 6 out of his 9 starts have been quality starts (and one of those starts was cut short in the first by rain, and the bullpen let in every inherited runner). He's actually been a bit better than I had expected.
   46. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 18, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4135131)
With respect to that washout in Texas, granted, that first start was short, but he still prepared for that game like a regular start, and that was a pretty difficult inning. Then he turns around and throws 93 pitches in less than six full innings the next day. I expect Wilson to be just fine next outing.

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