Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, February 06, 2014

Lauber: Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez among star-studded Red Sox 2014 Hall of Fame class

In an alternate universe, one that is free of performance-enhancing drugs and Congressional testimony, it’s easy to imagine Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez sharing a stage in Cooperstown, N.Y., on a July day in 2015, the former welcoming the latter into the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

Instead we must settle for a pregame ceremony at Fenway Park.

Unlike a vast majority of the more than 500 writers who cast Hall of Fame ballots every year, the 16 voters who elect new members to the Red Sox’ Hall of Fame were able to see beyond Clemens’ alleged transgressions, which include being injected with steroids late in his career by his trainer and lying under oath to Congress. But at least they delayed inducting “The Rocket” until he beat six felony counts in U.S. District Court in 2012.

And so, not guilty in the courtroom if not in the court of public opinion, Clemens will join Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra and longtime broadcaster Joe Castiglione this summer in a power-packed 2014 Red Sox Hall of Fame class. They will be feted before a game in August, then honored at a dinner to benefit the Fenway Park Living Museum Fund.

...Regardless, for fans of a certain age, the debate will forever rage about which pitcher—Clemens or Martinez—was the best at the height of his Red Sox powers. Martinez is expected to gain first-ballot entry to the Hall of Fame next year, likely with a vote total every bit as resounding as Maddux’ 97.2 percent this year. Surely, Clemens would be in the Hall by now, if not for his links to PEDs and the other post-career controversies that have trailed him.

Damn. I knew that appearance at Katch 22 would do him in.

 

Repoz Posted: February 06, 2014 at 06:40 AM | 42 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: February 06, 2014 at 09:42 AM (#4652519)
Chad Finn made the point that the class is almost too good. Each of these guys deserves their own stand alone day.
   2. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 06, 2014 at 10:07 AM (#4652525)
What's the deal with Wade Boggs' number not being retired by Boston? From their website:

The Red Sox policy on retiring uniform numbers is based on the following criteria:
*Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame
*At least 10 years played with the Red Sox

   3. Lyford Posted: February 06, 2014 at 10:21 AM (#4652531)
At one point (don't know if it still is) the criteria included finishing one's career with the Red Sox. They hired Fisk before they retired his, and called that good enough.
   4. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: February 06, 2014 at 10:23 AM (#4652533)
What's the deal with Wade Boggs' number not being retired by Boston?


Incredibly strange. The new owners have been fantastic about bringing back former players and honoring the history of the club. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a former Red Sox player around Fenway these days.

Except Boggs.

It makes no sense to me. It's not like they've had limited interaction with former players, they've been relentless with that stuff. But for whatever reason Boggs has never come back. Forget about retiring his number, he hasn't even thrown out a first pitch or anything like that. His absence is really conspicuous.
   5. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 06, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4652548)
As mentioned the last time the subject came up: Screw him - he got to ride the ####### horse.

The only reason he's in the Hall of Fame with a Red Sox cap rather than a Rays one is the Hall stepped in and said 'hell no.'

I'd rather see non-Hall of Famer Dewey get the honor (he and Manny can double-dip) than Boggs.
   6. Gamingboy Posted: February 06, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4652583)
Awkward...
   7. Tubbs & Minnie Miñoso don't fear Sid Monge Posted: February 06, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4652612)
I'd rather see non-Hall of Famer Dewey get the honor (he and Manny can double-dip) than Boggs.

Very much agreed. The Red Sox didn't exact follow their policy when they retired the numbers of Pesky and Fisk. Manny should've never been allowed to wear Evans' number. I'd like to see the Sox make a push to get Evans' overlooked HOF candidacy. I'm surprised teams don't retire numbers for players to help push their HOF candidacy--for example I'm also surprised the Angels' haven't retired Grich's number

Roger and Pedro should go in different years. Personally, I'd put Pedro in first due to all the PED issues
   8. Scott Ross Posted: February 06, 2014 at 01:16 PM (#4652650)
The Red Sox policy on retiring uniform numbers is whatever ownership decides it is at any given moment. If Henry wants to honor him, methinks he can find a way.
   9. gehrig97 Posted: February 06, 2014 at 04:31 PM (#4652781)
Huh. I wonder what the thinking was in "inducting" these guys on the same day? Actually, Nomar is a lesser light (though brilliant for the Sox), so let's limit it to just Roger and Pedro: You have arguably the two greatest pitchers in franchise history (if you're a peak guy, Pedro; career guy, Rocket), and two of the top 20 in baseball history. Inducting them together would be akin to the Yankees giving monuments to Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle on the same day. I wonder if this is a way of softening the controversy attendant to Clemens? Red Sox fans were ambivalent about him prior to the PEDs stuff (which is ridiculous, since it was Duquette who ran Clemens out of town), while Pedro is in the pantheon of beloved Boston icons. So I guess by inducting them together, Pedro puts Clemens over, so to speak.
   10. gehrig97 Posted: February 06, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4652790)
Huh. This surprised me. I figured Pedro's 7-year run with Boston was unassailable as the greatest extended run of dominance... well, ever.

But by one measure, the heart of Clemens' peak with Boston was even better (I'm assuming sheer volume gives Clemens the WAR edge; in ERA+, Pedro puts up a 190 to Roger's 160... that's 190 folks).)

Pedro WAR (97-2003): 53.8
Clemens WAR (86-92): 58.5
   11. villageidiom Posted: February 06, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4652874)
Huh. I wonder what the thinking was in "inducting" these guys on the same day?
They do one induction class per year, just like the BBHoF. It's a matter of inducting both of them in the same year.

Surely they were waiting on Clemens until after the perjury trial. I'm guessing election / appointment to the RSHoF in early 2013 for Clemens was "too soon" after the verdict (June 2012). And so he's inducted in 2014. Pedro, OTOH... No reason to wait.

The Red Sox policy on retiring uniform numbers is based on the following criteria:
*Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame
*At least 10 years played with the Red Sox
What Lyford and Scott Ross said. And the above isn't even their policy now, as non-Hall-of-Famer Johnny Pesky's number is retired.

The inclusion of "finish their career with Boston" was, interestingly enough, a way to enforce a very high standard for a long time. Before the rules were bent for Fisk, they had retired the numbers of only four Red Sox players: Doerr, Cronin, Williams, Yastrzemski. I liked the rarity. I also liked the symbolism: If you left the Red Sox for another team, then why should they treat your Red Sox uniform with more reverence than you did?

Those days are gone, and I have no doubt that they will eventually find a way to retire 21 (Clemens), 45 (Pedro), 25 (Conigliaro), 34 (Ortiz), and if he holds on long enough to his current job, 2 (Remy). There's a decent chance they will also retire 33 (Varitek), 15 (Pedroia), and 24 (Evans/Ramirez).

I can't explain why, but retiring 26 (Boggs) would surprise me.
   12. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 06, 2014 at 08:04 PM (#4652931)
What's the deal with Wade Boggs' number not being retired by Boston?


Boggs ate chicken every day. 2011 collapse had chicken involved. The link is obvious, c'mon....
   13. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 06, 2014 at 08:20 PM (#4652942)
If you left the Red Sox for another team, then why should they treat your Red Sox uniform with more reverence than you did?


I'm pretty sure babe Ruth didn't leave them. Nor any other player prior to 1976 or so.
   14. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 06, 2014 at 08:54 PM (#4652961)
I'm assuming sheer volume gives Clemens the WAR edge


Yep. Pedro averaged 198 IP per season during his Red Sox career. From 1986 to 1996, Clemens averaged 231 despite two of those seasons being shortened by the lockout. Pedro's other-worldly (ERA+ > 200) seasons were 213, 217, 199, and 186 innings. In 1994, Clemens threw 170 innings of 176 ERA+ in a 115-game season.
   15. God Posted: February 06, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4652969)
I don't know the reasons, but some combination of the following seems likely:

1) Boggs rode around on the stupid horse, which was both (a) obnoxious, and (b) kind of rubbing it in the nose of Red Sox fans.

2) Boggs went out of his way to make sure he didn't wear a Red Sox cap on his Hall of Fame plaque. He failed in this attempt, but he still attempted it.

3) Boggs was, and probably still is, kind of an a-hole. He drank 64 beers on one team flight. He wasn't close to any of his teammates. He had the reputation for caring more about himself than the team. I'm not saying it's true, but it is his reputation.

4) Most mainstream fans, though they realize he was a good player, probably aren't quite aware of how stunningly great Boggs was.
   16. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 06, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4652970)
Inducting them together would be akin to the Yankees giving monuments to Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle on the same day.

Actually, that's how the Yankees did it with the plaques honoring Mantle & DiMaggio. You don't get considered for a "monument upgrade" until you move on to the Big Ballpark In The Sky.
   17. God Posted: February 06, 2014 at 09:16 PM (#4652973)
The Dodgers retired the numbers of Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, and Roy Campanella all on the same day.
   18. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 06, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4652980)
He had the reputation for caring more about himself than the team. I'm not saying it's true, but it is his reputation.


That reputation was earned when he successfully lobbied to have a defensive error changed to a hit, despite the fact that it would change two unearned runs to earned runs while Clemens was in the hunt for the ERA title and a contender for his fourth Cy Young. It didn't sit well with ol' Roger, and I had to agree with him.

I wasn't a big fan of either guy, but I'd have no problem with Roger's 21 getting the retirement treatment, but I really don't want it to happen for Boggs.
   19. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: February 06, 2014 at 11:17 PM (#4653000)
The Dodgers retired the numbers of Jackie Robinson, Sandy Koufax, and Roy Campanella all on the same day.


See now that's awesome. You've got the black guy, the Jewish guy and the Italian guy. Is there a better way to celebrate the melting pot of America better then this? Yeah, I am serious, I think it's really cool.

Not sure that was their intention, but still cool.
   20. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 06, 2014 at 11:31 PM (#4653008)
#19 deserves a Coke commercial.
   21. villageidiom Posted: February 06, 2014 at 11:45 PM (#4653015)
I'm pretty sure babe Ruth didn't leave them. Nor any other player prior to 1976 or so.
The list of players who played at least 10 years, are in the HoF, and retired with the team, who played prior to 1976 or so, is quite short.
   22. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:56 AM (#4653034)
According to this, Boggs and Evans are in the Red Sox HOF. Manny is not, nor is Ernie Pantusso. Is this the right list?
   23. Jeltzandini Posted: February 07, 2014 at 06:49 AM (#4653051)
You've got the black guy, the Jewish guy and the Italian guy.


And all three, in one sense, were kids from Brooklyn. It's a WWII movie!

(Yes, the troops were not integrated until 1948.)

   24. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: February 07, 2014 at 07:46 AM (#4653053)
According to this, Boggs and Evans are in the Red Sox HOF. Manny is not, nor is Ernie Pantusso. Is this the right list?
It is, but I think there's some confusion between the team's HOF and its retired numbers which is a bit more exclusive.
   25. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 07, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4653085)

Those days are gone, and I have no doubt that they will eventually find a way to retire 21 (Clemens), 45 (Pedro), 25 (Conigliaro), 34 (Ortiz), and if he holds on long enough to his current job, 2 (Remy). There's a decent chance they will also retire 33 (Varitek), 15 (Pedroia), and 24 (Evans/Ramirez).


Why would the Sox retire Conigliaro, Varitek, Evans/Ramirez but not Boggs? ####, why Clemens but not Boggs? Last I heard Clemens left the Sox and ended up winning a few WS with the Yankees same as Boggs. People are really still pissed at Boggs because he wanted to wear a Rays cap in the HoF (and get paid)? Boggs is top 5 at his position, he is a no doubt about it HoF player, much better than Evans or Rice.
   26. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4653107)
Boggs is top 5 at his position, he is a no doubt about it HoF player, much better than Evans or Rice.


He is.* But retiring a player's number isn't just about how good he was. There's a reason Johnny Pesky's number is retired that has nothing to do with how good he was in Boston. I feel more strongly that no one should ever wear 6 ever again than I do about any Sox number other than 9 (OK, maybe 8 too).

I don't know that I'd say I'm still pissed at Boggs. What I do know is that I didn't like the ###### in Boston, I didn't like the ###### in New York, I didn't like the ###### in Tampa and I don't like the ###### now. I don't want to see him honored by the club with such a significant and permanent distinction, and I suspect there are enough Red Sox fans who have a similar feeling that the club recognizes there's not a lot of value in hanging 26 from the facade. Getting one's number retired is not a right, an honor you earn the moment you cross some performance threshold.

That being said, I sure as hell hope they don't follow the pattern of the fools from a few hours to the southwest and just start retiring the number of every jackoff who gave the fans a few warm memories, such as Varitek, though I suspect vi's post is probably close to the truth.

* He had a higher peak than Evans during his time in Boston. But anything he did elsewhere doesn't count toward his better player status as far as the Sox are concerned.
   27. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 07, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4653166)
There's a reason Johnny Pesky's number is retired that has nothing to do with how good he was in Boston.


Yeah. He invented the foul pole.

I sure as hell hope they don't follow the pattern of the fools from a few hours to the southwest and just start retiring the number of every jackoff who gave the fans a few warm memories


The Yankees have retired 16 numbers (one of them for two players), but the way some people here talk, you'd think it was 60. How many of these plaques do you really think should come off the wall? And before you answer, remember that there are reasons that 1, 10, 15, and 32 are retired that go well beyond anything to do with how good those players were in New York. You could possibly say the same thing for 23 and 49. Frankly, to me, the only real mistake is 44.

Torre's #6 is next, of course. And Jeter's #2 probably on the day he hangs 'em up. Do you disagree with those?

EDIT: Forgot to mention #9 -- largely a result of Big George feeling guilty, but it's also a fact that this player has been lionized throughout baseball in recent years to a degree that far outstrips what his accomplishments on the field would merit.
   28. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: February 07, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4653174)
The Yankees have retired 16 numbers (one of them for two players), but the way some people here talk, you'd think it was 60. How many of these plaques do you really think should come off the wall? And before you answer, remember that there are reasons that 1, 10, 15, and 32 are retired that go well beyond anything to do with how good those players were in New York. You could possibly say the same thing for 23 and 49. Frankly, to me, the only real mistake is 44.

Torre's #6 is next, of course. And Jeter's #2 probably on the day he hangs 'em up. Do you disagree with those?

I also think 1 and 23 are mistakes (Martin, Mattingly). I'm not sure what Elston Howard (15) did to merit a retired number but you seem to think there's something so I'll take your word for it. 3-4 mistakes out of 16 is a pretty high number.
   29. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4653180)
How many of these plaques do you really think should come off the wall?


1, 9, 23, 44 and 49 are mistakes. 1 wasn't a good player, and while an excellent, if limited, manager, he won only one title with NY and was also an embarrassment. 9 wasn't good enough or a Yankee long enough. 23 and 49 had the length of service, but not the excellence* (though they're the most defensible of this bunch). 44 wasn't there long enough (for instance, if 44, why not 31?).

10 is like 6 for Boston, and should absolutely have his number retired. I'm fine with the early death exception for 15, though the player has to be good enough (Munson was, Lidle wasn't).

* This is relative. 23 and 49 would be perfectly good choices if they played for the Padres. But when you're the Yankees, and a dozen or so of the all-time greatest players have worn your uniform for long stretches, you can be more selective. And that's my biggest beef. The Yankees once were that selective, so much so that greats like Lazzeri and Ruffing didn't get the same distinction as Ruth, Gehrig, Berra/Dickey, DiMaggio and Mantle. Then they got soft, and started handing it out to decidedly lesser Yanks (and it appears they may get even worse, as names like O'Neill and Piniella get bandied about).

And this softening is exactly what I fear will happen in Boston.


   30. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 07, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4653189)
Howard was 32. Integrated the Yankees. Pretty good career for a late-starting catcher. But like I said, it's not just about what he did on the field.

If Martin is a mistake, then Rizutto and Pesky are as well. Not a personal favorite, but for some reason, he means something to a large segment of the fanbase that is damned near transcendent. I dunno, maybe it belongs in the McCann though guy thread.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Yankees do not have a separate team hall of fame. It's pretty much retired number or nothing. At any rate, I was responding to "every jackoff who gave the fans a few warm memories." Contrary to popular belief, the Yankees have yet to retire 20, 21, or 51. And I don't think anybody would have a problem with those three if we were talking about a team HOF.
   31. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 07, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4653194)
Then they got soft


You mean George got soft. It remains to be seen if that will be a new normal. It was ten years between Guidry and Rivera. Ten years during which names like O'Neill and Piniella got bandied about, but not acted on.
   32. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 12:42 PM (#4653201)
If Martin is a mistake, then Rizutto and Pesky are as well. Not a personal favorite, but for some reason, he means something to a large segment of the fanbase that is damned near transcendent.


I disagree. Rizzuto and Pesky are beloved by the entire fanbase of each franchise. I"m sure Martin has strong supporters, but there are plenty of Yankee fans who recognize him for the violent alcoholic he was.


Another thing to keep in mind is that the Yankees do not have a separate team hall of fame. It's pretty much retired number or nothing. At any rate, I was responding to "every jackoff who gave the fans a few warm memories." Contrary to popular belief, the Yankees have yet to retire 20, 21, or 51. And I don't think anybody would have a problem with those three if we were talking about a team HOF.


Not having a team HoF (or something similar) is pretty silly. That's the perfect place to honor such lesser luminaries. But retiring a number is something different (largely because of the finite nature for such distinctions). And the honor shouldn't be tossed around so lightly.

Keep in mind, plenty of your Yankeen fan brethren around here are absolutely convinced the franchise will be retiring the numbers 20, 21 and 51 in the coming years. We'll have to see if the Yankees do in fact start to rein themselves in, or keep up their recently slutty ways on this front.

Edit: From 31, I don't think we're as far apart as we initially thought.

   33. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4653225)
I never did think we were that far apart. Like I said, I just thought that "every jackoff who gave the fans a few warm memories" was a bit too hyperbolic. Unless you think they're going to retire Tino Martinez' number, or for that matter, Johnny Damon's. And I absolutely agree that the Yankees have made a mistake by not having a two-tiered system for honoring players. There's no reason that monument park couldn't have plaques for Posadas and O'Neills, while only retiring numbers for those in the inner sanctum, but that ship has sailed.
   34. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4653231)
If Martin is a mistake, then Rizutto and Pesky are as well. Not a personal favorite, but for some reason, he means something to a large segment of the fanbase that is damned near transcendent. I dunno, maybe it belongs in the McCann though guy thread.

I'm not sure about Pesky, but Rizzuto is a HOF player and longtime broadcaster. That's a surefire recipe for team HOF status. I've no idea why I mixed up Munson's and Howard's numbers. Just integrating the Yankees isn't that big a deal. Other teams don't induct fairly decent players who integrated their teams.
   35. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4653235)

I'm not sure about Pesky, but Rizzuto is a HOF player and longtime broadcaster.


Pesky was associated with the team, in one way or another, for about 60 years.
   36. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4653240)

* He had a higher peak than Evans during his time in Boston. But anything he did elsewhere doesn't count toward his better player status as far as the Sox are concerned.


Boggs = 1625 games, 2098 hits, 1004 walks, 470 k's - .388/.428/.462 142 OPS+ 71.4 WAR
Evans = 2505 games, 2372 hits, 1337 walks, 1643 k's - .272/.369/.473 127 OPS+ 66 WAR

Boggs was the better player. He did more to help the team win. I love me some Dewey, but Boggs was amazing.
   37. tfbg9 Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4653264)
You mean .338...
   38. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4653265)
Boggs was the better player. He did more to help the team win. I love me some Dewey, but Boggs was amazing.


Yeah, it was close, but Boggs was probably better.* Still don't want to see his number retired.

*I'm a little too skeptical about both of their defensive numbers to be certain.

   39. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 07, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4653276)
Yeah, it was close, but Boggs was probably better.* Still don't want to see his number retired.

*I'm a little too skeptical about both of their defensive numbers to be certain.


I am skeptical of Dwight's defensive numbers, they look low, but if I do something in 11 years that takes you 18 years, I am more valuable. There is no 'close' to it.
   40. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 02:22 PM (#4653288)
I am skeptical of Dwight's defensive numbers, they look low, but if I do something in 11 years that takes you 18 years, I am more valuable. There is no 'close' to it.


And Wade's look high, considering the reputation he arrived in the big leagues with and how out of whack that is with his early dWAR numbers.

So, yeah, I'll stick with close. Wade at his best was obviously better, but their overall contributions to the Sox aren't that far apart.

   41. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: February 07, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4653342)
So, yeah, I'll stick with close. Wade at his best was obviously better, but their overall contributions to the Sox aren't that far apart.


Wade at his AVERAGE was as good as Dwight's BEST. You agree that Boggs has a better peak, ok, that means that to be close Evans should have better career #'s, but he really doesn't. He has about 1 to 1 1/2 seasons-worth of counting numbers on Boggs, that does not even out the huge peak gap between the two.

ETA:

I guess it doesn't matter, you don't like Boggs, so you don't want his # retired, I can understand that, it does have a lot to do about liking the player. Sort of unfair to criticize the Yankees if they retire numbers from well-liked players though if that is your main criteria.
   42. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 07, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4653352)
Wade at his AVERAGE was as good as Dwight's BEST. You agree that Boggs has a better peak, ok, that means that to be close Evans should have better career #'s, but he really doesn't. He has about 1 to 1 1/2 seasons-worth of counting numbers on Boggs, that does not even out the huge peak gap between the two.


That's one way of looking at it. I look at it that Wade put up more value in fewer seasons, meaning he was better at his best. But Evans closed that gap (and if the defensive numbers are off, surpassed it in total) considerably by playing more seasons. Thus, in my eyes they're close.

Sort of unfair to criticize the Yankees if they retire numbers from well-liked players though if that is your main criteria.


Not in the least, because I didn't say anything like that. I don't want to see the Sox retire Boggs' number for the reasons I outlined. But that's just me. If the Sox decide to retire 26, I won't like it, but it will be a defensible decision. I don't confuse what I want to happen with what should happen.

I like Tek. I love Wakefield. And I don't think I'm alone in those sentiments among Sox fans. But just being liked or loved shouldn't be enough to warrant the distinction.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Politics, September, 2014: ESPN honors Daily Worker sports editor Lester Rodney
(3215 - 5:45am, Sep 19)
Last: RollingWave

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - September 2014
(275 - 5:28am, Sep 19)
Last: Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa

NewsblogKeri: How Washington Built a World Series Favorite
(18 - 4:40am, Sep 19)
Last: Sunday silence

NewsblogIt’s quite the turnaround for Angels and General Manager Jerry Dipoto
(2 - 4:07am, Sep 19)
Last: JAHV

NewsblogRon Washington Acknowledges Infidelity, Doesn’t Explain Why He Resigned
(5 - 3:55am, Sep 19)
Last: JAHV

NewsblogUmpire ejects Braves fan for heckling Bryce Harper
(65 - 3:12am, Sep 19)
Last: Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof

NewsblogBowman: A year’s worth of struggles leads reason to wonder what changes are in store for the Braves
(55 - 2:14am, Sep 19)
Last: Robert in Manhattan Beach

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 9-18-2014
(148 - 1:47am, Sep 19)
Last: boteman is not here 'til October

NewsblogRASMUS OPENS UP ABOUT JAYS TENURE, FUTURE, PAST
(12 - 1:27am, Sep 19)
Last: DFA

NewsblogMcCarthy’s immaculate inning highlights Yankees win
(57 - 12:22am, Sep 19)
Last: pthomas

NewsblogJoe Girardi put Derek Jeter’s farewell tour ahead of the team
(116 - 12:17am, Sep 19)
Last: Srul Itza

NewsblogDave Kreiger: New Baseball Hall of Fame voting rules
(68 - 11:18pm, Sep 18)
Last: Booey

NewsblogOT: September 2014 College Football thread
(276 - 11:11pm, Sep 18)
Last: spike

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(270 - 10:00pm, Sep 18)
Last: Darkness and the howling fantods

NewsblogThe Jake Peavy-Dee Gordon rivalry seems to be, um, heating up
(8 - 9:47pm, Sep 18)
Last: DCA

Page rendered in 0.4549 seconds
52 querie(s) executed