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Monday, October 15, 2012

Leitch: I know you’ll never love the Cardinals as much as I do.

I have spent so much time watching the Cardinals, reveling in their victories and agonizing in their defeats, that I had forgotten that the rest of the world was watching them, too. (I forget this sometimes, too. I love my sports teams so much that it almost seems strange that the other sports fans notice them at all. Sometimes I’ll see an Illini score on the ESPN crawl and it’s like Anderson Cooper doing a news item on how your cousin’s final exams at a college are going.) And the rest of the world, to my astoundment, hates the Cardinals. The rest of the world was cheering for the young, likable, fiery Washington Nationals, with their superstar youngsters and their facial hair and their natty natitude. The Cardinals weren’t the heroes to them; they were the brutish villains, the Cobra Kai, the Empire, stomping on the dreams of the upstart rebellion.

When did you start hating the Cardinals? Obviously everyone hates them now, but for me it was October 19, 2006. The Braves suddenly were no longer the team Phillies fans viewed with envy and hatred, for whom everything seemed to work out better than expected (in the regular season at least). The Cardinals easily slid into their place after destroying the hopes of the Mets and ruining what should have been an all-time classic moment (Endy Chavez Game 7 catch ... but his team lost). Since I know a lot of Mets fans and have never met a Cardinals fan, this was a formative moment.

Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 15, 2012 at 10:33 AM | 258 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals, evil, fandom, nationals

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   201. kcgard2 Posted: October 16, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4272306)
I used to not care about the Cardinals, but so much in recent years has made me hate them. As has been expounded upon, the 2006 WS is hateable. 2011 was lucky insofar as the Braves monumentally epic collapse was necessary luck for it to have happened. 2012 is shaping up the same way as 2006, but moreso perhaps because Cardinals hatred is already so ossified for me. It has also already been mentioned how #### turns to gold when the Cardinals touch it; witness Pete Kozma right now. But what has led me to loathe the Cardinals more than anything else has been the constant whining.

1) the cards and Chris Carpenter whining over a poor performance because the balls "had not been rubbed the right way."
2) whining that the electronic score ticker (or whatever it's called) was too bright during Cardinals ABs in a loss at Milwaukee.
3) Throwing hissy fits ANY time a pitch came within 4 inches of any part of Albert Pujols' body. It's also already been mentioned how the Cards mastered the art of retaliation by retaliating for non-events and then complaining when another team retaliates back and trying to play the part of victim in any and all altercations.
4) TLR - his constant jawing at umps I can forgive as gamesmanship. But there is truly no dearth of reasons to hate on TLR even dismissing that part of the whinyness.
5) Gerald Laird's jawing At Francisco Cordero in a totally moronic situation furthers the narrative of a culture of whiners.
6) The escalation of the Reds (non- to that point) brawl thanks to Chris Carpenter.
7) Skip Schumaker whining about his baseball card. I feel gratuitous.

And there were so many other instances I don't recall right now. They'd earned the reputation (obviously) before the brawl even happened. It's been better under Matheny, but I still hate them.
   202. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 16, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4272360)
I started out not hating the Cardinals because of Stan The Man, switched to hating them after they beat the Yanks in the World Series, started liking them a little in the 70's when I got to see Brock in person at Busch II, loathed them like no other team before or since during the Herzog/Coleman/Andujar/Clark/Toodah years, got to tolerating them again after all those creeps were gone and they ditched the plastic grass, started liking them a bit because of Pujols and in spite of LaRussa, and now I just respect them as a damn good team with one of the best uniforms in baseball, with no particular liking or disliking. Foolish consistency, hobgoblin, etc.
   203. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 16, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4272378)
This is the craziest thing I have read in this thread... Sports hate is fun.


In fact, sports hate is the entire friggin' point of sports. What the hell do you think you're doing out there if not embracing your inner tribalist fascist? Good lord.
   204. Spahn Insane Posted: October 16, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4272382)
2008: they were again cleverly a little above .500 and finished 4th in the weak-ass central division.

Um...that "weak-ass Central division" included both the team with the league's best record (Cubs) and the wild card (Brewers).
   205. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4272384)
Um...that "weak-ass Central division" included both the team with the league's best record (Cubs) and the wild card (Brewers).


Playing the Pirates 20 times a year has its advantages.
   206. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4272389)
In fact, sports hate is the entire friggin' point of sports. What the hell do you think you're doing out there if not embracing your inner tribalist fascist? Good lord.

Well, it is true that if someone dropped a giant bomb over a Turner Field sellout crowd of tomahawk chopping zombies, I'd pluck one withered dandelion in sympathy and tell them to split it up 50,096 ways.

But hate? No, I wouldn't go that far. That's too strong a word.
   207. Spahn Insane Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4272396)
Um...that "weak-ass Central division" included both the team with the league's best record (Cubs) and the wild card (Brewers).

Playing the Pirates 20 times a year has its advantages.


The '08 Pirates were better than the '08 Nationals.

The Central was clearly the strongest NL division that year.
   208. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4272401)
5) Gerald Laird's jawing At Francisco Cordero in a totally moronic situation furthers the narrative of a culture of whiners


I'm glad that someone else finally recognizes Gerald Laird as the true STL "face of the franchise". So many folks discount him, based on the fact that he only had 108 PA's with the Cardinals, but at least kcgard2 gets it. We only had a few moments together, but they were special moments.

BTW, I'm lobbying the front office to place a leaping laird statue out in front of Busch, next to Stan musial. Who's with me?
   209. GuyM Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4272417)
But what has led me to loathe the Cardinals more than anything else has been the constant whining.

I'm a Cards fan, but that's a fair criticism. I'm hopeful that with TLR's departure, it will cease being a characteristic of the team.
   210. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 16, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4272436)
The Laird statue could be modelled on Bob Stokoe.
   211. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 16, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4272450)
I'm a Cards fan, but that's a fair criticism. I'm hopeful that with TLR's departure, it will cease being a characteristic of the team.


It seems as if Matheny's picked up the torch, unfortunately.
   212. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 16, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4272474)
Well, it is true that if someone dropped a giant bomb over a Turner Field sellout crowd


Wait, what? You've entered a Twilight Zone level of fantasy there.
   213. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 16, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4272492)
Well, it is true that if someone dropped a giant bomb over a Turner Field sellout crowd

Wait, what? You've entered a Twilight Zone level of fantasy there.


Not at all. You just have to pick your date carefully.
   214. PreservedFish Posted: October 16, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4272502)
What, you're gonna go ahead and kill the Mets too? Come on! Ruben Tejada is like a gentle baby walrus, he deserves better!
   215. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 16, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4272574)
What, you're gonna go ahead and kill the Mets too? Come on! Ruben Tejada is like a gentle baby walrus, he deserves better!

Tell you what: I'll wait for the next time the Braves and the Red Sox match up in interleague play. Deal?
   216. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: October 16, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4272582)
started liking them a little in the 70's when I got to see Brock in person at Busch II


Hanke's a really nice guy, I take it.
   217. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: October 16, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4272587)
Tell you what: I'll wait for the next time the Braves and the Red Sox match up in interleague play.


Last MLB game I went to was Boston visiting Atlanta in June 2007. I guess I dodged a bullet.
   218. Tippecanoe Posted: October 16, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4272617)
Turner Field often sells out when the Redbirds visit Atlanta. Plenty of Cards fans in Tennessee, it appears.
   219. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: October 16, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4272660)
Turner Field often sells out when the Redbirds visit Atlanta. Plenty of Cards fans in Tennessee, it appears.


Makes sense, with farm teams in Memphis & Johnson City. And of course the Cards were the whole South's team until the Braves moved to ... well, never mind; that's probably not much of a factor at this late date. I guess 1966 was awhile ago.
   220. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: October 16, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4272764)
And I'm still confused about Oakland and Tampa -- the only non-mallpark, non-icon stadiums in baseball.

I'm still confused at your casual disqualifier of the large increases in Wrigley, Fenway, and Dodger Stadium attendance figures. Has Wrigley somehow become more iconic in 2012 than it was in 1984, when the Cubs drew far fewer fans for a vastly superior team?
   221. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4272783)
eric

wrigly field is now a tourist stop. non-baseball fans attend games for the experience of being at the equivalent of a living museum

if that makes sense

   222. BDC Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4272787)
Has Wrigley somehow become more iconic in 2012 than it was in 1984, when the Cubs drew far fewer fans for a vastly superior team?

I'm not agreeing with the Bear overall here, but, yes. The flood of new parks after Camden Yards opened in '92 was unleashed by nostalgia for the old urban ballpark experience. People loved the retro parks, and they noticed that Wrigley and Fenway in particular were still the real thing, more or less. (So was Detroit, but there are other factors at work there that led to Tiger Stadium not hanging on as an icon, notably the status of surrounding neighborhoods and the overall metro economy.) Hence Harv's point, the place is far more a tourist destination now than back when it was more "itself" (ie before the lights).

It's kind of like how Tony Bennett is more iconic now than in 1964, when he was at his peak: the intersection of venerability and scarcity.
   223. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4272791)
Has Wrigley somehow become more iconic in 2012 than it was in 1984, when the Cubs drew far fewer fans for a vastly superior team?

Yes, and they play night games there now.

The Dodgers didn't draw any more fans to Dodger Stadium this year than they did in 1978 and drew fewer people than they did in a handful of 80s seasons. (Which likely reflects the fact that attendances are now based on tickets sold; every time I happen to see a Dodger game now, the place looks half full)
   224. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4272792)
wrigly field is now a tourist stop. non-baseball fans attend games for the experience of being at the equivalent of a living museum

if that makes sense


It makes perfect sense and I wish I'd written it.
   225. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4272808)
The Dodgers didn't draw any more fans to Dodger Stadium this year than they did in 1978 and drew fewer people than they did in a handful of 80s seasons.

And yet, Dodger Stadium has had a higher average attendance in the Wild Card era than it did in the LCS era. As does the Oakland Coliseum. Both of which have generally hosted less-successful teams in the more recent era.
   226. cardsfanboy Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4272815)
How is baseball in Tampa "popular" at all?


Tampa is the lowest(or one of the lowest) attended stadiums. Yet it still beats out 6 stadiums in attendance during the "peak" eras. That totally, and utterly destroys your point about it being more popular in your peak era. If you can't see that, that is your brains lack of functioning fault.
   227. cardsfanboy Posted: October 16, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4272817)
Never been there. It's been renovated a bunch, likely converted from ballpark to mallpark -- that's, you know, kind of the point of the renovations. The Angels drew 2.8M plus to it when it was a concrete circle, multi-purpose "monstrosity." Looks like they averaged 2.4-2.5 M in the 80s.
   199. mjs Posted: October 16, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4272288)


You have never defined a mallpark. WHAT is a mallpark? In your own words, not some misogynistic crap that you posted before, that said basically a mallpark is a place where people don't want to kill themselves and has women.
   228. GuyM Posted: October 16, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4272847)
You have never defined a mallpark. WHAT is a mallpark?

It's the stadium of any team whose attendance is high and/or has grown significantly over the past two decades.

Haven't you been paying attention?
   229. base ball chick Posted: October 16, 2012 at 10:20 PM (#4273265)
the astros do not have anything like a "mallpark" unless you are insisting that the club level/luxurybox is something it is not.

the only restaurant is the one near the RF bullpen that anyone can go to. the team store is on the ground floor and is no big deal. there is a much smaller team store in the upper level. people didn't go to the Box to go to the crappy restaurant or even larry dierker's crappy small bar. we went to watch baseball.

the attendance is minimal because the fans - i mean FORMER fans, have rebelled against the new owner and are refusing to have anything to do with a DH team. and yes fans of the opposing teams will come to the park to watch the opposing teams.
   230. cardsfanboy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 12:09 AM (#4273643)
the astros do not have anything like a "mallpark" unless you are insisting that the club level/luxurybox is something it is not.

the only restaurant is the one near the RF bullpen that anyone can go to. the team store is on the ground floor and is no big deal. there is a much smaller team store in the upper level. people didn't go to the Box to go to the crappy restaurant or even larry dierker's crappy small bar. we went to watch baseball.

the attendance is minimal because the fans - i mean FORMER fans, have rebelled against the new owner and are refusing to have anything to do with a DH team. and yes fans of the opposing teams will come to the park to watch the opposing teams.


SBB's definition of a mallpark fits that.
His definition is
1. Do women want to be there, if so it's a mallpark, because we know how much women like the mall.
2. If after leaving the place, you don't feel like you need a shower because of how filthy it is, it is a mallpark.

   231. base ball chick Posted: October 17, 2012 at 01:27 AM (#4273698)
CFB

well then i guess that the Box is a mallpark because at LEAST 40% of the fans are/were female. and i would bet that this was true in 99, the last year of the Dome, too. i remember seeing families, couples, and groups of grrls. of course, the team was great back then...

but the Dome was nice and clean and i didn't never feel filthy sitting in the seats or using the ladies room. and i am your usual woman who can't stand dirty bathrooms and sticky beery seats. so i gues the Dome was a mallpark too. even though i disremember any restaurants there at all. let alone anything else that was non-baseball
   232. Ben V-L Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:44 AM (#4273728)
#204: "weak-ass central division" was irony. Well, that and I was curious what the nanny would do. I thought I had my tongue pretty firmly in cheek on that post.

And since explaining irony in detail, while destroying the original effect, can nevertheless lead to a kind of amusing absurdity, let me clarify: another common criticism often leveled against the Cards is that they play in the weak central division. And saying they're above .500, fourth place, and in a weak division is nicely self-contradictory all within a short sentence, which made me kind of proud. And now, like Icarus, I fall.
   233. Portia Stanke Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:00 AM (#4273729)
And now, like Icarus, I fall.


Hey, another cardinalboard alumnus is here. Nice to see you, Ben. Was it you who played hoops with Steve Kline back in the day?


Hanke's a really nice guy, I take it.


He's the best, and the other Brock ain't bad, either. I hear he's willing to sign your van at card shows...
   234. Ben V-L Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:38 AM (#4273733)
Yes, that's me. Steve's settled back in town, though I don't see him much since I quit playing hoops (knee).
   235. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: October 17, 2012 at 08:03 AM (#4273751)
loathed them like no other team before or since during the Herzog/Coleman/Andujar/Clark/Toodah years


Et tu, Andy? Now I have a sadz.

In fact, sports hate is the entire friggin' point of sports. What the hell do you think you're doing out there if not embracing your inner tribalist fascist?


The whole point of sports hate (which is half -- not the entire -- point of sports) is to oppose the objective wickedness and depravity of _other_ sports teams and fanbases. It's certainly tribalism but it's not fascism. In fact and for instance, by hating the Yankees and their fans one is being as explicitly _anti-fascist_ as a sports fan can be, because the Yankees are historically the biggest bullies in sports and fascism, at root, is institutionalized bullying. IMO, a real fan of the sport supports their tribe/team if it is morally supportable (some obviously aren't) while concomitantly reserving sympathy for the objectively and historically underdog yet not horribly douchey (Giants, Mets) or psychopathic (Cubs) "Other." I, as a Cardinals fan, didn't mind the result of the 2004 World Series and wouldn't mind it if the Pirates won two or three straight pennants in the near future. The trick is to balance the positive half of sports fandom, which is supporting the home team, with the other, sometimes even more fun and definitely always more noble half, which is supporting, as best as one can, parity in the sport, IOW rooting against the bullies. Especially the fake-underdog bullies! Speaking of which, if I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and a Cubs fan, I'd shoot the Cubs fan twice.



   236. Dan Evensen Posted: October 17, 2012 at 08:35 AM (#4273755)
When did you start hating the Cardinals?

I could never stand Jesse Burkett and those blasted 1901 Cardinals.

;-)
   237. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 17, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4273756)
You have never defined a mallpark. WHAT is a mallpark?


A mallpark is any park with more features designed to sell you #### than designed to enhance or encourage the watching of a baseball game. Virtually every park built since 1992 is a mallpark.
   238. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 17, 2012 at 08:45 AM (#4273757)
The whole point of sports hate (which is half -- not the entire -- point of sports) is to oppose the objective wickedness and depravity of _other_ sports teams and fanbases. It's certainly tribalism but it's not fascism. In fact and for instance, by hating the Yankees and their fans one is being as explicitly _anti-fascist_ as a sports fan can be, because the Yankees are historically the biggest bullies in sports and fascism, at root, is institutionalized bullying. IMO, a real fan of the sport supports their tribe/team if it is morally supportable (some obviously aren't) while concomitantly reserving sympathy for the objectively and historically underdog yet not horribly douchey (Giants, Mets) or psychopathic (Cubs) "Other." I, as a Cardinals fan, didn't mind the result of the 2004 World Series and wouldn't mind it if the Pirates won two or three straight pennants in the near future. The trick is to balance the positive half of sports fandom, which is supporting the home team, with the other, sometimes even more fun and definitely always more noble half, which is supporting, as best as one can, parity in the sport, IOW rooting against the bullies. Especially the fake-underdog bullies! Speaking of which, if I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and a Cubs fan, I'd shoot the Cubs fan twice.


'TARDO's back!

I take your point re: fascism and the Yankees, but think you oversell the "positive half." Proper sports fandom involves never going outside of your tribe. If they're wearing the wrong laundry, stab them in the neck.
   239. ASmitty Posted: October 17, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4273802)
Proper sports fandom involves never going outside of your tribe. If they're wearing the wrong laundry, stab them in the neck.


I understand this is hyperbole, but I seriously do not understand this type of fandom. Is it really more fun than other kinds? Or is just that it's a safe(er) way to express one's more base human instincts?

I just can't embrace the tribal aspect of something I have zero control over. My team of choice can lose 100 games for ten years or win ten straight championships and it will have absolutely nothing at all to do with me. Pulling for a team is fun, but I honestly don't get the extreme, tribalist fervor.
   240. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4273819)
the attendance is minimal because the fans - i mean FORMER fans, have rebelled against the new owner and are refusing to have anything to do with a DH team. and yes fans of the opposing teams will come to the park to watch the opposing teams.

I certainly don't think the Astros moving to the AL is a good development, but it seems a lot more likely that fans are refusing to have anything to do with the team because they have no recognizable players and are making no effort to win and have lost 213 games over the last two seasons.
   241. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4273851)
I understand this is hyperbole, but I seriously do not understand this type of fandom. Is it really more fun than other kinds? Or is just that it's a safe(er) way to express one's more base human instincts?


Dude. I'm a Braves fan. Who said anything about "fun?"
   242. ASmitty Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4273857)
Dude. I'm a Braves fan. Who said anything about "fun?"


Point taken! I lived in the periphery of Braves fandom for about five years. Anecdotally, they really didn't seem to be having much fun. There was just something sort of off about it all.
   243. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4273865)
That's because at heart the Braves fan is a football fan. The idea of an important game followed one day later by another important game, and then another one the next day, frightens and confuses them. The narrative changes too often. They may be enthusiastic at first but they get overwhelmed and hide behind a shell of indifference.
   244. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:49 AM (#4273876)
loathed them like no other team before or since during the Herzog/Coleman/Andujar/Clark/Toodah years

Et tu, Andy? Now I have a sadz.


I can understand a lifelong Cardinals fan loving that team because they won a lot of games, but even if you go for that bounce the ball off the Astroturf ####, how could you possibly stand those five abovementioned bungholes as human beings? Go on, take them one by one and do your best spin.
   245. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4273878)
That's because at heart the Braves fan is a football fans. The idea of an important game followed one day later by another important game, and then another one the next day, frightens and confuses them. The narrative changes too often. They may be enthusiastic at first but they get overwhelmed and hide behind a shell of indifference.

Which may explain their otherwise inexplicable addiction to that zombie tomahawk chant. They're in a permanent coma.
   246. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: October 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4273921)
If they're wearing the wrong laundry, stab them in the neck.


I appreciate the fervor but I must stick to my typically sober & moderate :) position: live and let live.....unless they are Cubs, Yankees, Giants, A's, or Mets or have become like those teams, which is to say, respectively, they are Nazi child molesters who think masochistic self-pity is the highest virtue; horrible venal disgusting bullies who think it right proper to steal the best flyover country players the way Stuyvesant stole Manhattan from the Indians; cheater-worshiping douchehoses who would trip over themselves to give a blumpkin to a convicted animal rapist as long as he had a 1.3000 OPS; robotarded, face-polluting geeks whose nerdish, zero-dividing social ineptitude is so extreme they'd literally play with poop if someone told them it had a graphing function; and a god-awful shrill clone army of Jersey Shore cast members whose panicky and obvious sense of inferiority to others in their own territory as well as generally the greatest crisis of masculinity since George Thorogood's makes them sneer that much more vociferously at everyone else in the country, the overall effect being an ostentatiously proud sort of doofitude -- ooh, they are so punk rock they might throw a beer on ya, nevermind that lameness in comparison to, say, Philly people who've thrown ice-covered batteries at _children and Santa Claus_. So, yeah, if they are like that, then by all means stab them in the neck and shove them into ovens, too, for good measure. Otherwise, hey, I hope everyone has a share of success cuz I'm nice like that.
   247. base ball chick Posted: October 17, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4273937)
Rickey is oversampling the Poles Posted: October 17, 2012 at 08:43 AM (#4273756)
You have never defined a mallpark. WHAT is a mallpark?


A mallpark is any park with more features designed to sell you #### than designed to enhance or encourage the watching of a baseball game. Virtually every park built since 1992 is a mallpark.


- then the Box is most DEFINITELY not a mallpark
unless you object to concession stands and why you'd want only 1 or 2 so either a fan has to stand in line the entire game or go hungry i don't get. we had plenty of concession stands in the Dome too


Crispix Attacks Posted: October 17, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4273819)

the attendance is minimal because the fans - i mean FORMER fans, have rebelled against the new owner and are refusing to have anything to do with a DH team. and yes fans of the opposing teams will come to the park to watch the opposing teams.


I certainly don't think the Astros moving to the AL is a good development, but it seems a lot more likely that fans are refusing to have anything to do with the team because they have no recognizable players and are making no effort to win and have lost 213 games over the last two seasons.


the making no effort to win stuff started in 2011 when the team was gonna be sold to a guy who has no assets/money and it was rumored that he would sell out to the AL immediately. and we most positively had recognizeable players at that time. and THAT is when the fans said effyew and quit coming.

IF this new team, which needs to change its name but won't, does, in fact win, it won't be the old fans who come back. IF they come back. not that the owner/selig cares real too much seeing as how there is absolutely no reason to try to win. SOME team gotta be the doormat. and they'll make PLENTY of $$$ anyway.
   248. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: October 17, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4273947)
but even if you go for that bounce the ball off the Astroturf ####


The style was a big part of it, which Whitey was responsible for.. so I had to like him then, when I was a kid. Now that I know more, have read Herzog's book, have hindsight, and am so disgusted by the fanatical aspects of sabermetric ideology, the man's an even bigger hero to me. But never mind me; I think _you_ would like him. Your home team was the Senators, whose park you'd go to in order to root for the Yankees. Illinois boy Herzog's home team was the Browns, whose stadium he'd go to in order to... root for the Yankees. He was so enthralled by Mickey Mantle that for the rest of his career his only real blind spot in talent evaluation was with white, toolsy outfielders who could never be good enough. He has some great Satchel Page stories. He did pretty good for the time and age with substance abusers when he was manager. Finally, try to read his Charley Finley / "Pussyface" Sutton story and _not_ laugh.
   249. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 17, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4274006)
I appreciate the fervor but I must stick to my typically sober & moderate :) position: live and let live.....unless they are Cubs, Yankees, Giants, A's, or Mets or have become like those teams, which is to say, respectively, they are Nazi child molesters who think masochistic self-pity is the highest virtue; horrible venal disgusting bullies who think it right proper to steal the best flyover country players the way Stuyvesant stole Manhattan from the Indians; cheater-worshiping douchehoses who would trip over themselves to give a blumpkin to a convicted animal rapist as long as he had a 1.3000 OPS; robotarded, face-polluting geeks whose nerdish, zero-dividing social ineptitude is so extreme they'd literally play with poop if someone told them it had a graphing function; and a god-awful shrill clone army of Jersey Shore cast members whose panicky and obvious sense of inferiority to others in their own territory as well as generally the greatest crisis of masculinity since George Thorogood's makes them sneer that much more vociferously at everyone else in the country, the overall effect being an ostentatiously proud sort of doofitude -- ooh, they are so punk rock they might throw a beer on ya, nevermind that lameness in comparison to, say, Philly people who've thrown ice-covered batteries at _children and Santa Claus_. So, yeah, if they are like that, then by all means stab them in the neck and shove them into ovens, too, for good measure. Otherwise, hey, I hope everyone has a share of success cuz I'm nice like that.


You have been missed.
   250. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: October 17, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4274150)
Why thank you kind sir!
   251. BDC Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4274221)
A mallpark is any park with more features designed to sell you #### than designed to enhance or encourage the watching of a baseball game. Virtually every park built since 1992 is a mallpark

I agree with this definition to some extent, though one caveat would be that many features of previous parks detracted from the watching of baseball, and discouraged you from watching it. The Ballpark in Arlington is an infinitely better place to watch baseball than Arlington Stadium, even if it also has infinitely more features designed to sell you ####.

There are a lot of concession stands and souvenir stands at contemporary "mallparks," but heck, hot dogs and pennants and crap were part of the experience BITGOD too. They've just expanded, not really taken over.

The newer and odder thing I notice more and more is the creation of spaces where you can't see the field. Ashburn Alley in Philly has elements of that. The Rangers, this season, put a new sports bar in center field, at an impossible distance from the game and no real view of it, and also enclosed the CF concourse with a structure (the "Budweiser Bowtie") so that you can sit outdoors with food/drink and watch the game on a big-screen TV (that sits directly behind a statue of Nolan Ryan), but you have no view at all of the field. At this point, one asks why you don't go to a sports bar for free instead, but management will tell you, they're competing with sports bars, so they have to rival that experience.
   252. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4274372)
I agree with this definition to some extent, though one caveat would be that many features of previous parks detracted from the watching of baseball, and discouraged you from watching it. The Ballpark in Arlington is an infinitely better place to watch baseball than Arlington Stadium, even if it also has infinitely more features designed to sell you ####.


Agreed. Turner Field is a mallpark. Turner Field is better by factors than Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium.

The newer and odder thing I notice more and more is the creation of spaces where you can't see the field. Ashburn Alley in Philly has elements of that.


The Ted has this in droves. There's an entire run under the stadium, where walkways and concessions used to be in older stadiums, that's nothing but pitching machines, and "see how hard you can throw the ball" and various other "things for kids to do if kids don't want to watch baseball." There's also the (very good) Braves museum down there. But that's what makes a mallpark a mallpark. If you have an entire section of things to do *other than watch a baseball game...*
   253. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4274378)
douchehoses


This is my first encounter with this term. It's actually pretty descriptive.
   254. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4274381)
And f### the Cardinals, by the way.
   255. cardsfanboy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4274681)
A mallpark is any park with more features designed to sell you #### than designed to enhance or encourage the watching of a baseball game. Virtually every park built since 1992 is a mallpark.


Absolutely the stupidest definition in the world of anything. For example Busch stadium is more or less the same features as the previous Busch stadium, it just looks nicer. It's more open so that large crowds can move around, it has concessions just like the other park, it has a store, just like the other park, but unlike the other park, it's larger, not new, just better designed.
   256. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: October 17, 2012 at 06:40 PM (#4274775)
This is my first encounter with this term. It's actually pretty descriptive.


I prefer douche nozzles, personally, but you know, aesthetics. They're like STDs. You only share them with the ones you really love.
   257. BDC Posted: October 17, 2012 at 06:52 PM (#4274790)
There's an entire run under the stadium, where walkways and concessions used to be in older stadiums, that's nothing but pitching machines, and "see how hard you can throw the ball"

Interesting. The Ballpark had several of those items till this past winter. They had "hit the Wiffle Ball out of the Wiffle Park" contests and such. But for 2012 they eliminated all the kiddie activities in favor of more sports bars. I guess if your kids complain there are ample opportunities to drink more heavily.
   258. phredbird Posted: October 17, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4274794)
Dude. I'm a Braves fan. Who said anything about "fun?"


Point taken! I lived in the periphery of Braves fandom for about five years. Anecdotally, they really didn't seem to be having much fun. There was just something sort of off about it all.


my brother is a braves fan. if you knew my brother, if you knew anything about my family, you'd understand the above quotes.
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