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Friday, October 12, 2012

Ley: Alex Rodriguez Doesn’t Suck Because He Stopped Using PEDs; He Sucks Because He’s Old

As my old bartendress Braunstein once said…“Jeremy Schaap is a dick…but he’s no Dick Schaap”

Alex Rodriguez will be sitting on the bench tonight when the Yankees take on the Orioles in Game 5 of the ALDS. This is because A-Rod is mired in the kind of slump that 37-year-old sluggers tend to get mired in, but there are some who want to extrapolate more meaning out of his predictable decline. One of those people is Jeremy Schaap:

  Jeremy Schaap

  ARod’s slugging pct. in 2 seasons before admitting steroid use: .645, .573. In 4 seasons since: .532, .506, .461, .430.
 

  Jeremy Schaap

  Great players do not typically decline this quickly, this stupendously, between ages of 32 and 36.

Schaap’s implication that A-Rod now sucks at baseball because he’s not on steroids anymore is stupendously idiotic for two reasons. First, it naively assumes that A-Rod is no longer using performance-enhancing drugs. Second, a dramatic dropoff in production between age 32 and age 36 is entirely typical.

Thanks to Anno.

Repoz Posted: October 12, 2012 at 08:33 PM | 26 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: steroids, yankees

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   1. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: October 12, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4267009)
Can it not be both?
   2. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: October 12, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4267013)
(I'm rooting for redemption in the ALCS and/or WS, by the way)
   3. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 12, 2012 at 09:55 PM (#4267082)
Albert Pujols' OPS in the season before ARod admitted steroid use: 1.114
In 4 seasons since: 1.101, 1.011, .906, .859.

And Pujols is only... 32! Clearly this is also somehow ARod's fault.
   4. Walt Davis Posted: October 12, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4267137)
What a horrible article. He made no real attempt to find players similar to AROD.

First, he seems to conflate "mid-30s" with the ages 32-36.

Second, he cites Willie Mays. In the same list he's got Garrett Anderson. This is surely the only time Mays and Anderson have ended up in the same comp list. Seriously, this list ranges from guys who averaged about a 120 OPS+ in their prime to Mickey Mantle who averaged about a 200.

Third, he cites Willie Mays. From 32-36, Mays put up a 162 OPS+. True he had a "bad" season at 36 but he bounced back at 37. He put up a 158 OPS+ at age 40. What's more, from ages 27-31, he put up a 161 OPS+. From an OPS+ perspective, he had the best season of his career at 34. You have to be seriously ignorant of baseball history to include Willie Mays in a list of players who declined in their "mid-30s".

Fourth, he cites Mickey Mantle. It is fair to say Mantle declined in his "mid-30s" but only in the sense that through age 31, he tended to have an OPS+ in the neighborhood of 200 and then he only averaged 156 from 32 to 36 ... but he only retired due to severe knee problems. Obviously physical decline is a part of aging but this was far beyond standard physical decline due to aging.

Fifth, he cites Joe DiMaggio. DiMaggio had a "bad" season at 36, then retired. But up until that season, he was Joe DiMaggio.

Schaap's claim is of course unsubstantiated. But you don't respond to it with idiocy. At best he's confused "had a bad season at 36" or "eventually got old" with "fell off a cliff from ages 32-36."

There are plenty of comps that were similar hitters to ARod and had similar offensive struggles as they aged. Vlad is a good comp. Belle, although that's more obviously injury-related; same with Griffey. Even guys like Delgado, Helton and McGriff aren't bad comps for him. Of course you also have some Gary Sheffield types who didn't really decline until age 37.

When I was investigating the age 32+ performance of elite hitters last offseason for the Pujols debate, there was a clear difference between how the true elite aged and how the excellent aged. As hitters (i.e. playing time aside), the true elites didn't really decline until sometime around 38-39 if then. Most of the exceptions had serious injuries or were drunks or went off to war and they still hit up until the end. The downside was pretty much Frank Thomas who still put up an OPS+ in the 130s.

But somewhere around an OPS+ of 150 through age 31 you started to see a number of guys who declined as we might have expected for an average player.

So, it's true, ARod's performance of the last few years isn't far out of line (if at all) from hitters of his type. Given his athleticism there were reasons to think he might age better than a McGriff or Delgado. 2011 ZiPS had him at a 132 OPS+ still; by 2012, ZiPS had him pegged. 2013 ZiPS are not likely to be encouraging.
   5. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4267156)
Is ARod gonna get run out of town?
   6. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: October 12, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4267173)
It makes a lot of sense for you to think this way, Preserved. And it could certainly work out that way in the end. But there's no history of the Yankee organization doing that. I tend to think that he'll be in the lineup tomorrow night, and from then on.
   7. PreservedFish Posted: October 12, 2012 at 10:57 PM (#4267206)
Sometimes it seems like media and fan outrage reaches a critical mass and ownership sees no choice but to respond. It happens with managers mostly, but sometimes also players. I have no idea if the hysteria over ARod's decline and chokingness has reached such a point - I get most of my baseball news from this site.
   8. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 12, 2012 at 11:21 PM (#4267267)
The other day on WFAN, before the Ibanez stuff happened, I listened to Mike Francesca spend a whole segment vigorously defending A-Rod and, amazingly enough, Carlos Beltran, who he brought into the discussion without prompting. I was dumbfounded. I thought a comet was about to hit the earth or something.
   9. Walt Davis Posted: October 12, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4267336)
But there's no history of the Yankee organization doing that.

I almost agree but, thinking back, it's a mix. They rode out the Bernie and Knoblauch contracts. But they moved Javier Vazquez quickly; they got Kenny Rogers out of town (granted, that was 15 years ago :-); they dumped Irabu. But then those guys all stunk for the Yankees while ARod doesn't stink.

In general, the Yanks are more than big enough and popular enough to ride out ARod's unpopularity -- and not like they haven't been here before with ARod. They rarely dump useful players. And they have no options for 3B anyway and there's nothing on the FA market (Youk in NY sounds entertaining though). Even if he only gives them 400-500 PA, even if he slips further to a 100-105 OPS+, it's hard to see how the Yanks would be a better baseball team in 2013 without ARod barring a Vernon Wells like trade.
   10. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:41 AM (#4267633)
(I'm rooting for redemption in the ALCS and/or WS, by the way)


I would for ARod's sake, but the Yankees don't deserve it.
   11. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4267635)
It makes a lot of sense for you to think this way, Preserved. And it could certainly work out that way in the end. But there's no history of the Yankee organization doing that. I tend to think that he'll be in the lineup tomorrow night, and from then on.


There's certainly a history of the organization running players out of town once the fan/media/talk radio outrage reaches a critical mass. Burnett is a prime example.

You'd think good organizations wouldn't engage in this silliness, but the Yankees do.

EDIT: I see Walt named some others. And to a lesser extent Ian Kennedy was never going to stay in New York once he made the comment after a start that he pitched well but they simply found holes and got lucky on hits dropping in.
   12. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:52 AM (#4267650)
Ivan Nova had some post-start comments like that after his last start of the season, too. His trade value is pretty low right now, though.
   13. shoewizard Posted: October 13, 2012 at 04:39 AM (#4267779)
3 seasons, 98 starts, 624 IP, 116 ERA+ and 9.5 WAR later, may I once again say thank you to Yankee fans for running Ian Kennedy out of town ? yeah yeah...I know...nobody hits in the NL West, but he's still been pretty decent.
   14. BDC Posted: October 13, 2012 at 08:54 AM (#4267805)
They rarely dump useful players

Jason Giambi would seem to be the best analogy: MVP acquired to play his 30s in New York. (AROD was a bit younger and better, but same general ballpark.) It would have been very plausible for the Yankees to tie Giambi at some point into a burlap sack with a lot of money and dump him in Pittsburgh or somewhere, but they never did, and he kept clawing back to be intermittently, as you say, quite useful.
   15. bayside627 Posted: October 13, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4267821)
Eric Chavez 0-8 with 4 SO he did a great job of replacing Arod against Baltimore. It's about the money and Alex makes the most. The Yankees need him to win this thing.
   16. bobm Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4267941)
Mike Schmidt:

                                          
Year          Age   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS OPS+
1982           32 .280 .403 .547 .949  161
1983           33 .255 .399 .524 .923  156
1984           34 .277 .383 .536 .919  154
1985           35 .277 .375 .532 .907  149
1986           36 .290 .390 .547 .937  153
1987           37 .293 .388 .548 .936  142
1988           38 .249 .337 .405 .742  112
1989           39 .203 .297 .372 .668   91


Similar position, (EDIT: large difference in) cumulative PA and (EDIT: similar) career OPS+ to Rodriguez through age 32.
   17. bobm Posted: October 13, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4267960)
Rodriguez had a lot of mileage already through his age 32 season.

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, Younger than 32, (requiring HR>=300), sorted by greatest Plate Appearances

                                                                         
Rk              Player   PA  HR From   To   Age  OBP  SLG   OPS       Pos
1              Mel Ott 9089 415 1926 1941 17-32 .417 .547  .964   *958/74
2       Alex Rodriguez 9076 553 1994 2008 18-32 .389 .578  .967     *65/D
3           Hank Aaron 8543 442 1954 1966 20-32 .375 .564  .939  *987/453
4          Jimmie Foxx 8476 500 1925 1940 17-32 .437 .635 1.073 *352/7961
5        Eddie Mathews 8389 445 1952 1964 20-32 .384 .526  .911     *5/73
6            Ron Santo 8375 317 1960 1972 20-32 .367 .474  .841    *5/674
7            Al Kaline 8342 304 1953 1967 18-32 .380 .498  .877    *98/75
8       Frank Robinson 8159 418 1956 1968 20-32 .392 .556  .948    9738/5
9        Albert Pujols 8103 475 2001 2012 21-32 .414 .608 1.022 *375/D964
10       Adrian Beltre 8043 310 1998 2011 19-32 .329 .469  .797    *5/D64
11       Mickey Mantle 7979 454 1951 1964 19-32 .429 .582 1.011  *89/7645
12         Ken Griffey 7968 468 1989 2002 19-32 .379 .562  .940   *8/D793
13        Andruw Jones 7845 388 1996 2009 19-32 .338 .488  .826   *89/D73
14        Eddie Murray 7790 333 1977 1988 21-32 .371 .500  .871    *3D/75
15        Johnny Bench 7705 356 1967 1980 19-32 .344 .482  .826  *2/39758
16      Orlando Cepeda 7603 340 1958 1970 20-32 .352 .508  .860    *37/95
17          Lou Gehrig 7522 378 1923 1935 20-32 .446 .638 1.084    *3/976
18         Barry Bonds 7403 374 1986 1997 21-32 .408 .551  .959     *78/9
19         Willie Mays 7337 406 1951 1963 20-32 .389 .588  .976      *8/6
20          Sammy Sosa 7224 450 1989 2001 20-32 .343 .542  .885    *98/7D
21           Adam Dunn 7210 406 2001 2012 21-32 .370 .499  .870     *73D9
22            Jim Rice 7136 331 1974 1985 21-32 .353 .521  .874    *7D/98
23         Dale Murphy 7054 334 1976 1988 20-32 .358 .492  .850   *893/72
24         Boog Powell 6911 303 1961 1974 19-32 .362 .465  .826    *37/D9
25      Rocky Colavito 6888 358 1955 1966 21-32 .364 .503  .866    *97/31
Rk              Player   PA  HR From   To   Age  OBP  SLG   OPS       Pos
26         Duke Snider 6886 354 1947 1959 20-32 .384 .555  .939     *8/97
27         Shawn Green 6884 303 1993 2005 20-32 .356 .505  .861   *93/87D
28   Vladimir Guerrero 6819 365 1996 2007 21-32 .391 .579  .970     *9D/8
29      Reggie Jackson 6803 340 1967 1978 21-32 .360 .505  .865    *98/D7
30        Frank Thomas 6799 344 1990 2000 22-32 .440 .579 1.018       *3D
31      Gary Sheffield 6778 315 1988 2001 19-32 .399 .521  .920    957/6D
32       Juan Gonzalez 6670 405 1989 2002 19-32 .344 .563  .907      97D8
33       Chipper Jones 6634 310 1993 2004 21-32 .401 .537  .937   *57/6D9
34       Manny Ramirez 6575 390 1993 2004 21-32 .411 .599 1.010      *97D
35       Mark Teixeira 6558 338 2003 2012 23-32 .369 .527  .896   *3/D957
36        Jeff Bagwell 6519 310 1991 2000 23-32 .417 .552  .970     *3/D9
37      Miguel Cabrera 6474 321 2003 2012 20-29 .395 .561  .956    3579/D
38        Ted Williams 6436 323 1939 1951 20-32 .484 .633 1.117     *79/1
39           Jim Thome 6421 381 1991 2003 20-32 .411 .568  .979      *35D
40         Ernie Banks 6346 353 1953 1963 22-32 .344 .535  .879    *63/57
41          Dick Allen 6295 319 1963 1974 21-32 .385 .554  .939  537/64D8
42           Babe Ruth 6282 416 1914 1927 19-32 .480 .709 1.189    791/83
43        Jose Canseco 6262 351 1985 1997 20-32 .353 .516  .869    9D7/81
44    Harmon Killebrew 6262 397 1954 1968 18-32 .374 .531  .905    357/49
45         Ralph Kiner 6256 369 1946 1955 23-32 .398 .548  .946     *7/83
46        Mike Schmidt 6223 349 1972 1982 22-32 .382 .536  .918    *5/643
47        Albert Belle 6054 358 1989 1999 22-32 .372 .573  .946      *7D9
48      Carlos Delgado 6018 336 1993 2004 21-32 .392 .556  .949    *3D/72
49        Fred McGriff 6009 317 1986 1996 22-32 .383 .530  .913      *3/D
50          Troy Glaus 5872 304 1998 2009 21-32 .359 .497  .856    *5/D63
Rk              Player   PA  HR From   To   Age  OBP  SLG   OPS       Pos
51      Willie McCovey 5858 352 1959 1970 21-32 .387 .557  .944     *37/9
52         Mike Piazza 5193 314 1992 2001 23-32 .391 .579  .970     *2/D3
53        Mark McGwire 4976 329 1986 1996 22-32 .380 .544  .924    *3/D59
54         Ryan Howard 4701 300 2004 2012 24-32 .364 .551  .915      *3/D

   18. bobm Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4267974)
Here are the age 33- totals for the above list:

                                                                             
Rk              Player   PA OPS+ From   To   Age  HR  OBP  SLG   OPS      Pos
1           Hank Aaron 5398  153 1967 1976 33-42 313 .373 .538  .911  93D7/84
2          Barry Bonds 5203  209 1998 2007 33-42 388 .496 .697 1.193     *7/D
3          Willie Mays 5159  148 1964 1973 33-42 254 .377 .513  .890 *8/39765
4         Eddie Murray 5027  111 1989 1997 33-41 171 .341 .440  .781    *3D/5
5       Reggie Jackson 4615  124 1979 1987 33-41 223 .350 .468  .818       9D
6            Babe Ruth 4338  196 1928 1935 33-40 298 .465 .662 1.127   *97/31
7       Gary Sheffield 4169  131 2002 2009 33-40 194 .384 .503  .887  *9D/735
8         Fred McGriff 4165  119 1997 2004 33-40 176 .368 .479  .847     *3/D
9          Ernie Banks 4048  106 1964 1971 33-40 159 .308 .444  .753     *3/5
10       Chipper Jones 3980  142 2005 2012 33-40 158 .402 .517  .919    *5/D6
11           Jim Thome 3892  137 2004 2012 33-41 231 .386 .532  .918    *D3/5
12        Mike Schmidt 3839  144 1983 1989 33-39 199 .377 .514  .891    *53/6
13      Willie McCovey 3834  126 1971 1980 33-42 169 .355 .451  .806     *3/D
14      Frank Robinson 3583  149 1969 1976 33-40 168 .382 .493  .875    9D/37
15    Harmon Killebrew 3571  136 1969 1975 33-39 176 .378 .468  .846      35D
16        Ted Williams 3352  192 1952 1960 33-41 198 .478 .635 1.113       *7
17         Ken Griffey 3336  114 2003 2010 33-40 162 .348 .481  .828    89D/7
18        Frank Thomas 3276  130 2001 2008 33-40 177 .376 .507  .884     *D/3
19           Al Kaline 3254  125 1968 1974 33-39  95 .366 .433  .798  *9D3/78
20       Manny Ramirez 3199  150 2005 2011 33-39 165 .410 .557  .966     *7/D
21        Jeff Bagwell 2912  129 2001 2005 33-37 139 .386 .514  .900     *3/D
22        Mark McGwire 2684  178 1997 2001 33-37 254 .420 .674 1.094   *3/467
23          Sammy Sosa 2672  121 2002 2007 33-38 159 .345 .512  .857      *9D
24      Carlos Delgado 2639  130 2005 2009 33-37 137 .363 .523  .886     *3/D
25         Mike Piazza 2552  117 2002 2007 33-38 113 .347 .476  .823    *2D/3
Rk              Player   PA OPS+ From   To   Age  HR  OBP  SLG   OPS      Pos
26             Mel Ott 2259  150 1942 1947 33-38  96 .402 .477  .879     *9/5
27   Vladimir Guerrero 2240  115 2008 2011 33-36  84 .341 .474  .815    *D9/7
28          Lou Gehrig 2141  164 1936 1939 33-36 115 .451 .613 1.064       *3
29      Alex Rodriguez 2087  123 2009 2012 33-36  94 .364 .483  .848     *5/D
30         Dale Murphy 1987   92 1989 1993 33-37  64 .304 .388  .692    *9/87
31       Mickey Mantle 1928  149 1965 1968 33-36  82 .386 .450  .836    *37/8
32            Jim Rice 1922  111 1986 1989 33-36  51 .350 .429  .779      *7D
33        Jose Canseco 1867  119 1998 2001 33-36 111 .352 .508  .860    *D/79
34       Eddie Mathews 1711  115 1965 1968 33-36  67 .336 .429  .765     *5/3
35         Duke Snider 1351  123 1960 1964 33-37  53 .360 .458  .818     9/87
36         Jimmie Foxx 1200  118 1941 1945 33-37  34 .365 .431  .796  *3/5129
37      Orlando Cepeda 1095  114 1971 1974 33-36  39 .337 .441  .777     *D/3
38         Shawn Green 1079   99 2006 2007 33-34  25 .347 .431  .779    *9/3D
39           Ron Santo 1022   95 1973 1974 33-34  25 .325 .382  .707  *5/D436
40          Dick Allen 1020  105 1975 1977 33-35  32 .334 .410  .744     *3/D
41        Johnny Bench  969  108 1981 1983 33-35  33 .326 .427  .753   *5/327
42         Boog Powell  898  127 1975 1977 33-35  36 .352 .438  .790     *3/D
43        Andruw Jones  819  111 2010 2012 33-35  46 .330 .462  .792    9/7D8
44      Rocky Colavito  671  100 1967 1968 33-34  16 .315 .347  .662    *9/71
45       Adrian Beltre  654  136 2012 2012 33-33  36 .359 .561  .921     *5/D
46        Albert Belle  622  109 2000 2000 33-33  23 .342 .474  .817     *9/D
47       Juan Gonzalez  485  115 2003 2005 33-35  29 .328 .534  .862     /*9D
48          Troy Glaus  483  102 2010 2010 33-33  16 .344 .400  .744    *3/D5


   19. bobm Posted: October 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4267978)
Here are the age 33-36 stats for the above group, sorted by PA:

                                                                             
Rk              Player   PA OPS+ From   To   Age  HR  OBP  SLG   OPS      Pos
1         Jeff Bagwell 2789  130 2001 2004 33-36 136 .387 .520  .907     *3/D
2       Gary Sheffield 2616  145 2002 2005 33-36 134 .399 .542  .940    *9/D5
3            Babe Ruth 2610  207 1928 1931 33-36 195 .472 .710 1.181   *97/13
4         Mike Schmidt 2603  153 1983 1986 33-36 146 .387 .535  .922    *53/6
5         Eddie Murray 2599  123 1989 1992 33-36  81 .353 .436  .789     *3/5
6           Hank Aaron 2582  162 1967 1970 33-36 150 .375 .561  .937   *9/384
7         Fred McGriff 2574  117 1997 2000 33-36 100 .376 .471  .847     *3/D
8     Harmon Killebrew 2530  154 1969 1972 33-36 144 .400 .516  .916     *3*5
9       Carlos Delgado 2527  130 2005 2008 33-36 133 .361 .523  .884     *3/D
10         Ernie Banks 2485  110 1964 1967 33-36  89 .315 .448  .763     *3/5
11         Willie Mays 2476  159 1964 1967 33-36 158 .372 .569  .942 *8/97635
12       Manny Ramirez 2431  153 2005 2008 33-36 137 .411 .578  .988     *7/D
13         Barry Bonds 2402  198 1998 2001 33-36 193 .451 .696 1.147     *7/D
14        Mark McGwire 2320  189 1997 2000 33-36 225 .437 .704 1.140   *3/467
15   Vladimir Guerrero 2240  115 2008 2011 33-36  84 .341 .474  .815    *D9/7
16          Sammy Sosa 2218  125 2002 2005 33-36 138 .352 .521  .873     *9/D
17             Mel Ott 2177  156 1942 1945 33-36  95 .410 .491  .902     *9/5
18      Frank Robinson 2146  151 1969 1972 33-36 104 .391 .509  .900    *9/37
19      Reggie Jackson 2141  150 1979 1982 33-36 124 .375 .534  .910     *9/D
20          Lou Gehrig 2141  164 1936 1939 33-36 115 .451 .613 1.064       *3
21      Alex Rodriguez 2087  123 2009 2012 33-36  94 .364 .483  .848     *5/D
22       Chipper Jones 2043  162 2005 2008 33-36  98 .430 .585 1.015    *5/D6
23           Jim Thome 2006  142 2004 2007 33-36 126 .402 .554  .956      *D3
24           Al Kaline 1963  132 1968 1971 33-36  62 .382 .448  .829   *9/378
25         Dale Murphy 1938   95 1989 1992 33-36  64 .307 .393  .700    *9/87
Rk              Player   PA OPS+ From   To   Age  HR  OBP  SLG   OPS      Pos
26       Mickey Mantle 1928  149 1965 1968 33-36  82 .386 .450  .836    *37/8
27            Jim Rice 1922  111 1986 1989 33-36  51 .350 .429  .779      *7D
28        Jose Canseco 1867  119 1998 2001 33-36 111 .352 .508  .860    *D/79
29         Mike Piazza 1784  119 2002 2005 33-36  83 .354 .482  .837    *2/3D
30       Eddie Mathews 1711  115 1965 1968 33-36  67 .336 .429  .765     *5/3
31        Frank Thomas 1680  135 2001 2004 33-36  92 .384 .522  .906     *D/3
32      Willie McCovey 1644  148 1971 1974 33-36  83 .394 .491  .884       *3
33         Ken Griffey 1576  125 2003 2006 33-36  95 .349 .534  .883    *8/D9
34         Duke Snider 1162  131 1960 1963 33-36  49 .369 .481  .850     9/87
35      Orlando Cepeda 1095  114 1971 1974 33-36  39 .337 .441  .777     *D/3
36         Shawn Green 1079   99 2006 2007 33-34  25 .347 .431  .779    *9/3D
37        Ted Williams 1064  213 1952 1955 33-36  71 .506 .695 1.201       *7
38           Ron Santo 1022   95 1973 1974 33-34  25 .325 .382  .707  *5/D436
39          Dick Allen 1020  105 1975 1977 33-35  32 .334 .410  .744     *3/D
40        Johnny Bench  969  108 1981 1983 33-35  33 .326 .427  .753   *5/327
41         Jimmie Foxx  952  119 1941 1944 33-36  27 .372 .435  .807   *3/529
42         Boog Powell  898  127 1975 1977 33-35  36 .352 .438  .790     *3/D
43        Andruw Jones  819  111 2010 2012 33-35  46 .330 .462  .792    9/7D8
44      Rocky Colavito  671  100 1967 1968 33-34  16 .315 .347  .662    *9/71
45       Adrian Beltre  654  136 2012 2012 33-33  36 .359 .561  .921     *5/D
46        Albert Belle  622  109 2000 2000 33-33  23 .342 .474  .817     *9/D
47       Juan Gonzalez  485  115 2003 2005 33-35  29 .328 .534  .862     /*9D
48          Troy Glaus  483  102 2010 2010 33-33  16 .344 .400  .744    *3/D5
   20. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4268014)
It is so obvious as to be idiotic to suggest otherwise. PED's keep him on the field. Between ages 25-31 (7 seasons) he averaged 159 games a season - remarkable. From 2008-2012 (5 seasons) he has averaged 124.
   21. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 13, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4268028)
It is so obvious as to be idiotic to suggest otherwise. PED's keep him on the field.

For years, we've been told amphetamines were merely like a restorative cup of coffee. So steroids must be almost the same: like a cup of coffee that shrinks your nuts.
   22. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: October 13, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4268121)
Does he actually "suck"? I kinda think he'd make the A's better.
   23. bobm Posted: October 13, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4268170)
[20]

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1961 to 2012, From Age 25 to 31, (requiring G>=1000), sorted by greatest Games Played

                                                 
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
1        Billy Williams 1137 1963 1969      *79/8
2            Cal Ripken 1132 1986 1992         *6
3         Miguel Tejada 1129 1999 2005       *6/D
4          Steve Garvey 1127 1974 1980         *3
5        Alex Rodriguez 1114 2001 2007      *56/D
6             Ron Santo 1110 1965 1971      *5/67
7           Shawn Green 1109 1998 2004     *93/8D
8         Michael Young 1108 2002 2008     *64/D5
9       Brooks Robinson 1107 1962 1968      *5/64
10          Bobby Abreu 1104 1999 2005      *9/8D
11      Garret Anderson 1104 1997 2003     *789/D
12        Chipper Jones 1100 1997 2003    *57/69D
13           Joe Carter 1097 1985 1991   8793/D45
14            Lou Brock 1096 1964 1970      *79/8
15        Graig Nettles 1095 1970 1976     *5/76D
16        Kirby Puckett 1094 1985 1991  *8/9D7645
17          Todd Helton 1092 1999 2005         *3
18            Sal Bando 1090 1969 1975      *5/D4
19        Don Kessinger 1089 1968 1974         *6
20           Carlos Lee 1086 2001 2007       *7/D
21        Mark Teixeira 1083 2005 2011       *3/D
22           Johnny Ray 1083 1982 1988      *4/7D
23            Pete Rose 1082 1966 1972   *974/853
24     Carl Yastrzemski 1082 1965 1971     *73/89
25            Steve Sax 1081 1985 1991     *4/5D7
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
26          Pete OBrien 1081 1983 1989     *3/97D
27           Wade Boggs 1079 1983 1989      *5/D3
28           Tony Perez 1079 1967 1973      *53/4
29        Albert Pujols 1076 2005 2011     *3/5D4
30              Ron Cey 1076 1973 1979         *5
31       Carlos Delgado 1075 1997 2003       *3/D
32          Juan Pierre 1074 2003 2009      *87/D
33        Willie Upshaw 1074 1982 1988       *3/D
34          Toby Harrah 1074 1974 1980     *56/4D
35           Curt Flood 1073 1963 1969         *8
36          George Bell 1072 1985 1991     *7/D54
37          Cesar Tovar 1072 1966 1972 87549/6321
38          Tim Wallach 1071 1983 1989     *5/164
39          Dale Murphy 1071 1981 1987     *89/73
40    Curtis Granderson 1070 2006 2012      *8/7D
41            Adam Dunn 1069 2005 2011     *73/D9
42      Alfonso Soriano 1065 2001 2007     *47/8D
43        Lance Berkman 1064 2001 2007     7398/D
44        Ryne Sandberg 1064 1985 1991       *4/6
45         Bobby Murcer 1063 1971 1977     *98/64
46        Ken Singleton 1062 1972 1978      *97/D
47       Bill Mazeroski 1061 1962 1968         *4
48         Paul Konerko 1060 2001 2007       *3/D
49      Chris Chambliss 1059 1974 1980       *3/D
50         Nick Swisher 1058 2006 2012   *9387/D1
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
51       Carlos Beltran 1058 2002 2008       *8/D
52      Harold Reynolds 1058 1986 1992      *4/D7
53      Orlando Cabrera 1057 2000 2006       *6/4
54         Johnny Damon 1056 1999 2005     *87/D9
55         Julio Franco 1056 1984 1990      *64/D
56        Tom Brunansky 1055 1986 1992    *9/7D38
57         Jason Giambi 1054 1996 2002    *3D7/59
58     Brandon Phillips 1053 2006 2012       *4/6
59           Tony Oliva 1053 1964 1970      *9/87
60           Joe Morgan 1052 1969 1975      *4/78
61              Lee May 1052 1968 1974      *3/97
62         George Scott 1051 1969 1975      *35/D
63       Frank Robinson 1051 1961 1967    *97/385
64         Brook Jacoby 1050 1985 1991     *53/D4
65          Gary Gaetti 1050 1984 1990   *5/7D634
66      Willie Montanez 1050 1973 1979      *3/9D
67      Rafael Palmeiro 1048 1990 1996       *3/D
68     Kevin McReynolds 1046 1985 1991      *78/9
69        Ivan de Jesus 1046 1978 1984       *6/5
70          Derek Jeter 1045 1999 2005       *6/D
71         Jeff Cirillo 1045 1995 2001    *5/43D6
72         Craig Biggio 1045 1991 1997    *42/78D
73      Keith Hernandez 1045 1979 1985      *3/79
74            Rod Carew 1045 1971 1977     *43/D5
75         Sandy Alomar 1044 1969 1975    *4/65D9
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
76         Leo Cardenas 1044 1964 1970         *6
77         Albert Belle 1043 1992 1998        *7D
78       Tony Fernandez 1043 1987 1993         *6
79       Thurman Munson 1043 1972 1978   *2/D9735
80     Harmon Killebrew 1043 1961 1967      735/9
81            Alex Rios 1042 2006 2012     *98/D7
82        Darrell Evans 1041 1972 1978      *53/7
83           Larry Bowa 1041 1971 1977         *6
84          Pat Burrell 1040 2002 2008       *7/D
85            Roy White 1040 1969 1975     *7/D39
86    Vladimir Guerrero 1039 2000 2006       *9/D
87          Vada Pinson 1039 1964 1970     *89/73
88         Mike Cameron 1037 1998 2004      *8/9D
89           Tony Gwynn 1037 1985 1991        *98
90          Bobby Knoop 1037 1964 1970         *4
91        John Mayberry 1034 1974 1980       *3/D
92           Wes Parker 1034 1965 1971     *3/879
93        Dave Winfield 1033 1977 1983    *978/D3
94         Willie Davis 1031 1965 1971       *8/9
95         Jacque Jones 1030 2000 2006      79/8D
96           Bill Doran 1030 1983 1989       *4/6
97           Ray Durham 1029 1997 2003       *4/D
98         Mike Schmidt 1029 1975 1981      *5/64
99            Jim Thome 1028 1996 2002       *35D
100           Joe Torre 1028 1966 1972        253
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
101     Johnny Callison 1028 1964 1970      *9/87
102        Fred McGriff 1027 1989 1995       *3/D
103            Jim Wynn 1027 1967 1973       *897
104       Adrian Beltre 1025 2004 2010     *5/D64
105     Terry Pendleton 1024 1986 1992       *5/9
106          Bob Watson 1024 1971 1977    *3*7/29
107      Willie McCovey 1024 1963 1969      *37/9
108       Harold Baines 1023 1984 1990       D9/8
109        Felix Millan 1023 1969 1975         *4
110       Brian Roberts 1022 2003 2009      *4/D6
111         Aubrey Huff 1022 2002 2008     D593/7
112      Edgar Renteria 1022 2002 2008       *6/D
113            Jay Bell 1022 1991 1997       *6/5
114     Bert Campaneris 1022 1967 1973      *6/7D
115          Mark Grace 1021 1989 1995         *3
116        Eddie Murray 1021 1981 1987       *3/D
117      Reggie Jackson 1021 1971 1977      *98/D
118       Jose Cardenal 1021 1969 1975      987/5
119         Eric Karros 1020 1993 1999       *3/D
120         Bobby Bonds 1020 1971 1977     *98/D7
121     Shane Victorino 1019 2006 2012      *89/7
122       Mark Belanger 1019 1969 1975         *6
123         Barry Bonds 1017 1990 1996       *7/8
124          Greg Gagne 1017 1987 1993    *6/8D49
125          Doug Rader 1017 1970 1976      *5/63
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
126        Vernon Wells 1016 2004 2010       *8/D
127       Don Mattingly 1016 1986 1992    *3/D579
128         Chili Davis 1016 1985 1991       9D78
129        Lou Whitaker 1016 1982 1988       *4/D
130       Matt Holliday 1015 2005 2011       *7/D
131        Raul Mondesi 1014 1996 2002      *98/D
132       Bobby Bonilla 1014 1988 1994      *59/3
133       Jimmy Rollins 1012 2004 2010         *6
134          Sammy Sosa 1012 1994 2000       *9/8
135            Jim Rice 1012 1978 1984     *7D/98
136            Don Wert 1012 1964 1970      *5/64
137         Richie Zisk 1011 1974 1980        97D
138         Denis Menke 1011 1966 1972   *6543/97
139        Andruw Jones 1009 2002 2008       *8/D
140     Marquis Grissom 1009 1992 1998         *8
141         Dusty Baker 1009 1974 1980       *798
142         Ryan Howard 1008 2005 2011       *3/D
143         Neifi Perez 1008 1998 2004     *64/52
144           Al Oliver 1008 1972 1978     *873/D
145         Brian McRae 1007 1993 1999       *8/D
146           Von Hayes 1007 1984 1990     3897/5
147       Gary Matthews 1007 1976 1982        *79
148      Andy Van Slyke 1006 1986 1992     *89/37
149        Brett Butler 1006 1982 1988     *87/9D
150           Amos Otis 1005 1972 1978       *8/D
Rk               Player    G From   To        Pos
151       Luis Gonzalez 1004 1993 1999     *7/D83
152      Scott Fletcher 1004 1984 1990     *64/5D
153         Rusty Staub 1004 1969 1975         *9
154         John Olerud 1003 1994 2000       *3/D
155          Don Baylor 1003 1974 1980     7D93/8
156          Paul Blair 1003 1969 1975      *8/D5
157         Ozzie Smith 1002 1980 1986         *6
158         Omar Moreno 1002 1978 1984       *8/D
159     Alfredo Griffin 1001 1983 1989      *6/4D
160         Gary Carter 1001 1979 1985      *2/39
161       Mike Hargrove 1001 1975 1981      *37/D
162          Ralph Garr 1000 1971 1977     *79/8D
163        Frank Howard 1000 1962 1968      *79/3
   24. BDC Posted: October 13, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4268179)
he'd make the A's better

For the Rangers, AROD would be a big upgrade at the position "Right-Handed Designated Hitter Who Can't Play the Infield Very Well."
   25. bobm Posted: October 13, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4268187)
Same list, for ages 32-36, sorted by games played:

                                           
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
1             Pete Rose 809 1973 1977 32-36
2       Rafael Palmeiro 796 1997 2001 32-36
3          Brett Butler 788 1989 1993 32-36
4          Eddie Murray 785 1988 1992 32-36
5       Brooks Robinson 778 1969 1973 32-36
6           Bobby Abreu 776 2006 2010 32-36
7          Mike Schmidt 771 1982 1986 32-36
8           Derek Jeter 770 2006 2010 32-36
9         Miguel Tejada 767 2006 2010 32-36
10         Fred McGriff 764 1996 2000 32-36
11          Ozzie Smith 759 1987 1991 32-36
12            Lou Brock 759 1971 1975 32-36
13           Mark Grace 755 1996 2000 32-36
14        Dave Winfield 755 1984 1988 32-36
15           Cal Ripken 743 1993 1997 32-36
16       Billy Williams 741 1970 1974 32-36
17           Tony Perez 736 1974 1978 32-36
18         Willie Davis 735 1972 1976 32-36
19           Carlos Lee 734 2008 2012 32-36
20        Luis Gonzalez 733 2000 2004 32-36
21      Orlando Cabrera 729 2007 2011 32-36
22     Carl Yastrzemski 729 1972 1976 32-36
23        Ken Singleton 725 1979 1983 32-36
24         Johnny Damon 721 2006 2010 32-36
25         Craig Biggio 721 1998 2002 32-36
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
26           Joe Carter 720 1992 1996 32-36
27            Al Oliver 718 1979 1983 32-36
28         Paul Konerko 716 2008 2012 32-36
29              Lee May 716 1975 1979 32-36
30       Carlos Delgado 714 2004 2008 32-36
31          Barry Bonds 713 1997 2001 32-36
32          Tim Wallach 708 1990 1994 32-36
33     Harmon Killebrew 705 1968 1972 32-36
34        Darrell Evans 699 1979 1983 32-36
35              Ron Cey 697 1980 1984 32-36
36          Rusty Staub 696 1976 1980 32-36
37      Marquis Grissom 695 1999 2003 32-36
38         Steve Garvey 695 1981 1985 32-36
39           Larry Bowa 695 1978 1982 32-36
40           Joe Morgan 694 1976 1980 32-36
41    Vladimir Guerrero 690 2007 2011 32-36
42           Wade Boggs 682 1990 1994 32-36
43           Don Baylor 680 1981 1985 32-36
44          John Olerud 679 2001 2005 32-36
45            Sal Bando 677 1976 1980 32-36
46           Sammy Sosa 675 2001 2005 32-36
47         Frank Howard 669 1969 1973 32-36
48      Bert Campaneris 668 1974 1978 32-36
49         Lou Whitaker 667 1989 1993 32-36
50           Ray Durham 665 2004 2008 32-36
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
51          Chili Davis 663 1992 1996 32-36
52      Alfonso Soriano 661 2008 2012 32-36
53       Reggie Jackson 660 1978 1982 32-36
54        Graig Nettles 654 1977 1981 32-36
55          Todd Helton 651 2006 2010 32-36
56      Garret Anderson 648 2004 2008 32-36
57        Mark Belanger 646 1976 1980 32-36
58       Frank Robinson 646 1968 1972 32-36
59         Mike Cameron 637 2005 2009 32-36
60            Rod Carew 637 1978 1982 32-36
61          Dale Murphy 635 1988 1992 32-36
62            Jim Thome 634 2003 2007 32-36
63      Chris Chambliss 631 1981 1985 32-36
64          Vada Pinson 625 1971 1975 32-36
65       Alex Rodriguez 620 2008 2012 32-36
66        Harold Baines 620 1991 1995 32-36
67        Chipper Jones 618 2004 2008 32-36
68          Toby Harrah 617 1981 1985 32-36
69             Jay Bell 616 1998 2002 32-36
70        Bobby Bonilla 613 1995 1999 32-36
71           Tony Gwynn 611 1992 1996 32-36
72          Gary Gaetti 611 1991 1995 32-36
73          Dusty Baker 610 1981 1985 32-36
74        Michael Young 607 2009 2012 32-35
75         Jason Giambi 597 2003 2007 32-36
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
76             Jim Rice 596 1985 1989 32-36
77       Willie McCovey 596 1970 1974 32-36
78        Lance Berkman 594 2008 2012 32-36
79        Gary Matthews 588 1983 1987 32-36
80        Don Kessinger 584 1975 1979 32-36
81            Amos Otis 580 1979 1983 32-36
82      Terry Pendleton 574 1993 1997 32-36
83          Eric Karros 572 2000 2004 32-36
84        Kirby Puckett 561 1992 1995 32-35
85          Gary Carter 543 1986 1990 32-36
86            Joe Torre 542 1973 1977 32-36
87           Tony Oliva 540 1971 1975 32-36
88         George Scott 538 1976 1979 32-35
89        Mike Hargrove 534 1982 1985 32-35
90           Bob Watson 525 1978 1982 32-36
91      Keith Hernandez 516 1986 1990 32-36
92          Aubrey Huff 509 2009 2012 32-35
93           Greg Gagne 499 1994 1997 32-35
94             Jim Wynn 494 1974 1977 32-35
95         Bobby Murcer 493 1978 1982 32-36
96            Roy White 483 1976 1979 32-35
97        Ryne Sandberg 482 1992 1996 32-36
98       Tony Fernandez 470 1994 1998 32-36
99          Pete OBrien 466 1990 1993 32-35
100      Scott Fletcher 464 1991 1995 32-36
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
101        Leo Cardenas 464 1971 1975 32-36
102        Jeff Cirillo 455 2002 2006 32-36
103         Juan Pierre 448 2010 2012 32-34
104      Carlos Beltran 438 2009 2012 32-35
105         Shawn Green 437 2005 2007 32-34
106        Julio Franco 437 1991 1994 32-35
107         Bobby Bonds 433 1978 1981 32-35
108       Jose Cardenal 414 1976 1980 32-36
109           Ron Santo 399 1972 1974 32-34
110         Cesar Tovar 398 1973 1976 32-35
111          Bill Doran 397 1990 1993 32-35
112          Paul Blair 392 1976 1980 32-36
113        Andruw Jones 360 2009 2012 32-35
114       Don Mattingly 359 1993 1995 32-34
115     Alfredo Griffin 359 1990 1993 32-35
116         Pat Burrell 334 2009 2011 32-34
117         Richie Zisk 315 1981 1983 32-34
118        Albert Belle 302 1999 2000 32-33
119       Jimmy Rollins 298 2011 2012 32-33
120         Neifi Perez 295 2005 2007 32-34
121      Edgar Renteria 292 2009 2011 32-34
122      Bill Mazeroski 283 1969 1972 32-35
123       Adrian Beltre 280 2011 2012 32-33
124    Kevin McReynolds 270 1992 1994 32-34
125      Andy Van Slyke 268 1993 1995 32-34
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
126         George Bell 257 1992 1993 32-33
127     Willie Montanez 251 1980 1982 32-34
128          Ralph Garr 247 1978 1980 32-34
129     Johnny Callison 240 1971 1973 32-34
130          Johnny Ray 239 1989 1990 32-33
131        Felix Millan 230 1976 1977 32-33
132     Harold Reynolds 219 1993 1994 32-33
133        Raul Mondesi 218 2003 2005 32-34
134        Vernon Wells 208 2011 2012 32-33
135           Steve Sax 207 1992 1994 32-34
136       John Mayberry 180 1981 1982 32-33
137        Jacque Jones 177 2007 2008 32-33
138         Omar Moreno 176 1985 1986 32-33
139           Von Hayes 171 1991 1992 32-33
140         Denis Menke 169 1973 1974 32-33
141        Sandy Alomar 160 1976 1978 32-34
142       Matt Holliday 157 2012 2012 32-32
143       Albert Pujols 154 2012 2012 32-32
144           Adam Dunn 151 2012 2012 32-32
145          Doug Rader 148 1977 1977 32-32
146       Tom Brunansky 144 1993 1994 32-33
147          Wes Parker 130 1972 1972 32-32
148       Mark Teixeira 123 2012 2012 32-32
149        Brook Jacoby 120 1992 1992 32-32
150         Bobby Knoop 116 1971 1972 32-33
Rk               Player   G From   To   Age
151       Brian Roberts 115 2010 2012 32-34
152      Thurman Munson  97 1979 1979 32-32
153       Ivan de Jesus  82 1985 1988 32-35
154         Ryan Howard  71 2012 2012 32-32
155            Don Wert  20 1971 1971 32-32
156          Curt Flood  13 1971 1971 33-33

   26. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: October 13, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4268428)
The other day on WFAN, before the Ibanez stuff happened, I listened to Mike Francesca spend a whole segment vigorously defending A-Rod and, amazingly enough, Carlos Beltran, who he brought into the discussion without prompting.


Funny, once in the course of bashing Beltran as unclutch and not an MVP-caliber player, he decided to go look at Beltran's Ahr-Bee-Eyes, which he thought would prove his point, but discovered that Carlos had had ovah 110 Ahr-Bee-Eyes each uh the last three yeahs, and said "oh, ok."

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