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Wednesday, October 11, 2006

Lidle dies as plane crashes into Manhattan high-rise

This is only baseball news because CNN and SI’s Tom Verducci are reporting that the plane is registered to former Yankee player Cory Lidle.

Regardless, this is not good news.

UPDATE: The link is now ESPN’s more sports-centric story… from that article

A small plane piloted by New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle crashed into a 50-story condominium tower Wednesday on Manhattan’s Upper East Side, killing at least four people, authorities said.

Lidle died in the crash.

The twin-engine plane came through a hazy, cloudy sky and hit the 20th floor of The Belaire—a red-brick tower overlooking the East River, about five miles from the World Trade Center—with a loud bang, touching off a raging fire that cast a pillar of black smoke over the city and sent flames shooting from four windows on two adjoining floors.


The plane left New Jersey’s Teterboro Airport, just across the Hudson River from the city, at 2:30 p.m., about 15 minutes before the crash, according to officials at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the airport. But they said they did not where the aircraft was headed.

Sean McNally Posted: October 11, 2006 at 08:46 PM | 409 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   101. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: October 11, 2006 at 09:54 PM (#2207350)
His Baseball-Reference page has already been updated.
   102. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 09:55 PM (#2207351)
No, I think John was making the point that life is far more important than political squabbles, and if we want to heap scorn on others, we would be wise not to take doing so lightly.

Huh? So we can never heap scorn on scabs because they may someday die in a plane crash? Is that the point?
   103. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: October 11, 2006 at 09:57 PM (#2207353)
Bloomberg said it was only an unamed person [Lidle] and a flight instructor on the plane.

This sucks. At least no one else was hurt outside of the plane.
   104. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 09:59 PM (#2207355)
This sucks. At least no one else was hurt outside of the plane.

Except that 4 people died. So that means 2 people not on the plane died, too.

It all sucks.
   105. Rob Base Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:00 PM (#2207358)
You're using his death to make a political point.

Why are so many people on this site so eager to scold other posters? Get over yourself.
   106. Fred Garvin is dead and Joe Biden is alive Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:00 PM (#2207359)
This may be a morbid question, but what happened to the plane? Is it still intact, embedded in the building?

I would think that it would have parts flying off and, unfortunately, coming down 20 floors onto the street below.
   107. Banta Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:01 PM (#2207360)
Man, I just realized it's the 11th.

There's nothing about this that isn't incredibly creepy.
   108. eerbeek Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:01 PM (#2207362)
I apologize to all for my opinions. I don't know the NYC set up as far as the rivers and buildings, etc. go.

My UNDERSTANDING, however, is that the building is painfully close to, if not right ON, the East River. Given that, wouldn't crashing into the river be a more logical choice to not injure/kill others and MAYBE save yourself as well? To deliberately turn into a building and/or population doesn't seem logical to me.

How much time might he have had to make a decision? Would a plane turn on its own without pilot manipulation if the engine went out?

While a family might not "need" the insurance money, a thoughtful suicide attemptee would probably go for that goal.

He was just a guy... not a career pilot (working the "pride" thing) coming down after a devastating loss in his career of playing a game. And reports are that he was berated heavily for the performance. People react in vastly different ways... we can't know if it was suicide or not, but I don't think it can be ruled out.

Also, the Yankees have the largest payroll in MLB. How could they have the NERVE to strike for $$? (I am NOT informed on this issue, so please just accept my opinion as just that).

I lived next door to Bill Freehan (Tiger Catcher through 1971) as a kid. He had the same exact lifestyle as my dad, a draftsman at GM. How did it (payroll) get so out of control? It's ridiculous what they make.

CONFIRMATION: Only 2 dead at this hour. Assuming the occupants of the plane. Hopefully, the homeowners were all at work or elsewhere when this happened.
   109. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:01 PM (#2207363)
This may be a morbid question, but what happened to the plane? Is it still intact, embedded in the building?

The metal parts are in the street, but most of the body burned up. The engine is in the apartment it crashed into.
   110. Guapo Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:02 PM (#2207364)
From the Houston Chronicle website:

First pitch is scheduled for three hours from now for Game 1 of the National League Championship Series, yet the St. Louis Cardinals supposedly still haven't arrived at Shea Stadium.

The Cardinals are staying at a hotel near where a small plane crashed this afternoon in Manhattan, and it's been difficult for traffic to come out of Manhattan toward Queens. It's raining quite a bit here at Shea Stadium, so that surely won't help.

Word has spread that Cory Lidle, the New York Yankees reliever, reportedly piloted the plane and died in the crash. Mets pitching coach Rick Peterson coached Lidle with the Mets. Peterson also noted that Mets third base coach Manny Acta, a former manager in the Astros' farm system, lives in the building where the plane crashed. Because media is not allowed in clubhouses before postseason games, it has been difficult to seek comment from some players who have ties to Lidle.

Peterson said Mets players are glued to the television in the clubhouse to get reports from the crash.


http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/archives/2006/10/sad_feeling_her.html
   111. Banta Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:02 PM (#2207365)
Except that 4 people died. So that means 2 people not on the plane died, too.

They're reporting that isn't true now. Only two dead.
   112. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:02 PM (#2207366)
f-16's are lawndarts engine goes out there screwed
   113. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:03 PM (#2207367)
You can never say a cruel word to or about anyone because they may someday die.

I don't think that's exactly the point. Of course, I didn't make the original post.

Lidle was scorned because he took the "wrong" side in a dispute over money. How important is that, really? I believe that was the point. If you're going to start scorning people, make it over something crucial.

John can obviously correct me if I'm misinterpreting.
   114. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:03 PM (#2207368)
You can never say a cruel word to or about anyone because they may someday die.

In the abstract, that's a lovely sentiment.
   115. Keith Law Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:03 PM (#2207369)
This may be a morbid question, but what happened to the plane? Is it still intact, embedded in the building?

I think the CNN story said that the debris from the plane mostly went down to the street. I'm wondering if anyone on the street was killed; the assumption is that the fatalities were people in the building, but they could have been passersby, too.

BTW, Lidle was married with at least one kid, a baby back in '03 when he was with TBJ. Just awful all around.
   116. Fountains of Wayne Gomes Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:04 PM (#2207370)
The A's are playing tonight too - I'd imagine they have more people who played with Lidle than another team still in contention.
   117. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:04 PM (#2207372)
I'm sorry. This makes no sense and has no place in the here and now.

You're using his death to make a political point


No I'm not. I'm saying it's a good time to reflect on what's truly important. Someone much wiser than me once said: "Treat everybody like it's their last day on earth because one day it will be."

People that treated Lidle poorly over a philosophical difference will never have the chance to make amends and that sucks.

If being reminded that treating people well at all times is what's truly important constitutes a political point then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

We have a great many philosophical disagreements on Primer and sometimes we make it personal. People, not philosophies are what counts. Philosophies change, life is constant, we should act accordingly because once life is gone--it's gone and how we parted, whether on good terms or bad, 'stands forver in the guide.'

If you knew that someone in front of you was going to die tomorrow how would you treat them?

We should treat people that way every day.

Rant finished.

Best Regards

John
   118. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:05 PM (#2207373)
Lidle was scorned because he took the "wrong" side in a dispute over money. How important is that, really? I believe that was the point. If you're going to start scorning people, make it over something crucial.

Management types all over America are nodding in agreement with that statement.
   119. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:05 PM (#2207374)
Keith, did you know Cory at all when he was with the Jays?
   120. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:05 PM (#2207375)
And reports are that he was berated heavily for the performance.

He wasn't berated for his performance -- he was berated for a bad quote in the paper that may or may not have been damning of Joe Torre.
   121. Benji Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:06 PM (#2207376)
This "just report anything we're handed" leads to so much nonsense and contradiction. He was an experienced pilot, but there was a flight instructor with him? Jesus, get the facts, then report!
   122. Fred Garvin is dead and Joe Biden is alive Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:07 PM (#2207377)
The metal parts are in the street, but most of the body burned up. The engine is in the apartment it crashed into.

Thanks, Chipper and Keith. I would also think that debris from the building itself would also drop below. I hope there weren't any pedestrians nearby.

Considering 9/11, what I don't get is how anyone could be allowed to fly that close to Manhattan in the first place (that wasn't a commercial pilot, that is).
   123. Fat Al Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:09 PM (#2207379)
Moments of silence planned for tonight's games.
   124. PreservedFish Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:10 PM (#2207380)
treating people well at all times is what's truly important

I don't think that's what's truly important in life.
   125. Sean McNally Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:10 PM (#2207381)
They were saying on the news that there is a legal flight corridor down the East River - where Lidle's plane was originally travelling.
   126. scotto Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:10 PM (#2207382)
RIP Cory, and condolences to his friends and family.
   127. Guapo Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:11 PM (#2207383)
People that treated Lidle poorly over a philosophical difference will never have the chance to make amends and that sucks.

We should set up a special thread so everyone here can make their amends with Albert Belle.
   128. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:11 PM (#2207384)
We have a great many philosophical disagreements on Primer and sometimes we make it personal. People, not philosophies are what counts. Philosophies change, life is constant, we should act accordingly because once life is gone--it's gone and how we parted, whether on good terms or bad, 'stands forver in the guide.'

Again, John, in the abstract that is a lovely sentiment, but in the real world it's useless... at least in this instance. Please remember that labor issues often boil down to situations where families are devastated over what you reduce to a philosophical difference, and people who are sympathetic to Labor are going to react to any "scab" in a way that you may not like. It sucks that Lidle died, but he was what he was, and maybe it also sucks for him in that he couldn't make amends with those he hurt when he made the decision to be a scab.
   129. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:12 PM (#2207386)
They were saying on the news that there is a legal flight corridor down the East River - where Lidle's plane was originally travelling.

It's not so awfully far from LaGuardia, so it would probably be impractical to ban air traffic.
   130. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:13 PM (#2207387)
Thanks, Chipper and Keith. I would also think that debris from the building itself would also drop below. I hope there weren't any pedestrians nearby.

Wow. First off, the sidewalk below where the crash happened isn't high traffic for pesestrians, so that's a lucky thing. It is on my jogging path, tho, and I'm a little weirded out about that. As an A's fan, I remember Lidle well and he had some good times there. All the best to his family and friends. And all the best to the ther victims.
   131. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:14 PM (#2207388)
I don't know if someone has mentioned this, but Bloomberg said that the engine block ended up in the apartment, while the rest of the plane fell to the street. I am no expert, but it seems that if the engine block stayed in the apartment then the plane must have hit the building pretty square.
   132. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:15 PM (#2207389)
Alan Schwartz saying some nice things about Lidle on espn right now.
   133. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:15 PM (#2207390)
But of course it's not that simple. I make fun of players who scabbed in '95, but most of them were too naive to have really thought about the implications of what they were doing. It's certainly possible that Lidle, and Rick Reed, and Kevin Millar and all the rest are perfectly fine people from a moral standpoint, just a little dim. So there's a difference between being a scab because you don't understand about unions and dignity and human rights and all, just because you want money now instead of later, or you're afraid to pass up an "opportunity," and being a scab after having considered and understood the implications. It's the same difference between killing someone who attacks you and killing someone who's at home in bed at the time.

So maybe Lidle was a jerk who spit in the face of dozens of millions of hard-working American families, or maybe he was a naive, silly kid. I have no idea which, so I certainly feel no concrete emotion but sadness about his untimely death. But I'd be lying to say that I feel as bad about it as I would if it was someone who I knew was a truly good person. People have differing value to history, which is a taboo thing to say, but absolutely true, and something that has to be faced.
   134. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:15 PM (#2207392)
We should set up a special thread so everyone here can make their amends with Albert Belle.

I'm so sick of all these ballplayers like Cory Lidle and Albert Belle with all their picket-line crossings and the crashing planes into buildings and everything.
   135. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:16 PM (#2207393)
It sucks that Lidle died, but he was what he was, and maybe it also sucks for him in that he couldn't make amends with those he hurt when he made the decision to be a scab.

Being an MLBPA scab is nothing like being a scab against almost every other union.
   136. Fountains of Wayne Gomes Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:16 PM (#2207394)
We should set up a special thread so everyone here can make their amends with Albert Belle.
I'm sick of all these players like Cory Lidle and Albert Belle flying planes into buildings.
   137. billyshears Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:17 PM (#2207395)
People that treated Lidle poorly over a philosophical difference will never have the chance to make amends and that sucks.

How do we know they would want to make amends? An unexpected death is a tragedy, but it is not cleansing. If you vehemently disagree with somebody's actions and express your distaste, I don't see why that person's death should cause you to regret your expression of very real emotions.
   138. Guapo Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:17 PM (#2207396)
Speaking of plane crashes, today is the 34th anniversary of Roberto Clemente's last game.
   139. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:18 PM (#2207397)
I don't know if someone has mentioned this, but Bloomberg said that the engine block ended up in the apartment, while the rest of the plane fell to the street. I am no expert, but it seems that if the engine block stayed in the apartment then the plane must have hit the building pretty square.

squarely, even.

And someone did mention this.

Is it confirmed that there was an instructor aboard? It doesn't make sense to me that an instructor would condone something so risky in a small airspace. Why not turn around toward Brooklyn instead? Plus, if there was a problem with the pilot, such as fuel tanks or lack of attention, the instructor can just take over from the other seat. Odd.
   140. If theres a bunt w'all remember twas back in ol 92 Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:18 PM (#2207399)
Since he's not in the Union how does that effect Lidle's family receiving some sort of pension for this?
   141. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:18 PM (#2207400)
If Albert Belle died this moment I would still stand by every unkind thing I ever said about him. I beleived my unkindness was in kind to his own to others even if not to me personally.

I believe in being cruel to be kind. In the right measure.
   142. Old Matt Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:19 PM (#2207401)
Terrible. A former replacement player and a Met I originally liked.

RIP Cory.
   143. Keith Law Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:19 PM (#2207402)
Keith, did you know Cory at all when he was with the Jays?

Knew him enough to say hi, and I remember one conversation I had with him after he had a great start against Anaheim when I was asking him about his curveball, but that's about it. I definitely got the impression that he thought I was about 18 years old, but that hardly makes him unique.
   144. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:21 PM (#2207403)
I'm sick of all these players like Cory Lidle and Albert Belle flying planes into buildings.

If you're going to make a tasteless joke about this, the least you could do would be to make it funny.
   145. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:21 PM (#2207404)
Why not turn around toward Brooklyn instead?

They were a good 6 miles from Brooklyn. They could have turned toward Long Island City, I suppose.
   146. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:22 PM (#2207406)
Being an MLBPA scab is nothing like being a scab against almost every other union.

No disrespect intended, but I doubt you're in a union. To me, when any union is in conflict with management, I support the union. It doesn't matter to me if the union I am supporting is comprised of gazzilionaires who would have no interest in supporting my union if we went out on strike. To me, the deal is that any union that is weakened weakens my union, and that ultimately will hurt me and my family.
   147. Guapo Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:23 PM (#2207407)
Since he's not in the Union how does that effect Lidle's family receiving some sort of pension for this?

It won't affect it at all- participation in the pension plan is not conditioned on union membership.

It would be my guess that someone who made as much as Lidle probably had a fairly sizable life insurance policy, if he was smart.
   148. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:23 PM (#2207408)
According to Mayor Bloomberg, one of the passengers was a flight instructor, the other a student. Presumably Lidle was the student.

Apparently they had circled the Statue of Liberty, flew up the East River, and they lost radar contact at the 59th St Bridge.
   149. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:25 PM (#2207409)
If you're going to make a tasteless joke about this, the least you could do would be to make it funny.

It's an inside joke, 6-4-3.

Do a google search for "Chris Truby" and "Albert Belle".
   150. eerbeek Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:25 PM (#2207410)
Detroit vs. A's tonite. What a match up, given the circumstances. We just beat the Yankees and are now playing against many who knew Lidle. I'm sure there will be many mixed feelings and Detroit will be as reverent of the situation as they possibly can be.

I just heard Lidle only had 95 hours under his belt. That's not all that much "experience" in flying, is it? I could be wrong about this kind of standard, but it doesn't seem like significant experience.

I also heard there was an instructor on board. Where was said instructor at the first sign of trouble to guide things correctly?
   151. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:28 PM (#2207413)
To me, the deal is that any union that is weakened weakens my union

Except that the MLBPA isn't a union.

But this whole conversation probably belongs in a different thread.
   152. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:28 PM (#2207414)
“The initial indication is that there is a terrible accident,” Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke said.


I can't read that w/o thinking that the spokesman's name is kinda sorta like Knute Rockne, who also died in a plan crash, IIRC.
   153. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:29 PM (#2207415)
Detroit vs. A's tonite.

If they play. The NLCS game is almost certain to be cancelled, for the weather if nothing else.
   154. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:29 PM (#2207417)
Where was said instructor at the first sign of trouble to guide things correctly?


Who is to say he did not try? Planes crash with seasoned veteran pilots at the helm, too.
   155. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:31 PM (#2207418)
No postponements for either game because of the crash just announced.
   156. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:32 PM (#2207419)
If they play.

They'll probably play. There'll be a moment of silence, but they'll play.
   157. Biscuit_pants Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:32 PM (#2207420)
No disrespect intended, but I doubt you're in a union. To me, when any union is in conflict with management, I support the union. It doesn't matter to me if the union I am supporting is comprised of gazzilionaires who would have no interest in supporting my union if we went out on strike. To me, the deal is that any union that is weakened weakens my union, and that ultimately will hurt me and my family.


I have been in different unions in my life and would never blindly favor a union over management. Sometimes it is the union that will ultimately hurt you and your family. The Baseball union is one that I have traditionally sided with the players until the '94 strike.
   158. Zagg Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:33 PM (#2207421)
No I'm not. I'm saying it's a good time to reflect on what's truly important. Someone much wiser than me once said: "Treat everybody like it's their last day on earth because one day it will be."

But isn't that always true?

Were the players that called Lidle a scab the only people ever in his life to give him a hard time? You singled them out. That choice was political. You could have just as easily criticized sports columnists or talking heads that may have been rude to Lidle after poor pitching performances.

Regardless, I should have left your original statement alone because now it's caused further comments on this issue, which is not what I wanted to spark.

In my mind the focus should be on the tragedy and on Lidle. There are plenty of other days and threads for discussing the strike.
   159. Greg Franklin Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:33 PM (#2207422)
Yankees.com has its report up. Link.
   160. Padgett Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:33 PM (#2207424)
This is pretty terrible.

Lidle was an awesome force to watch for much of 2001, and was positively unhittable in August, 2002: 45+ IP, 1 ER, 8 BB, 3 XBH, 0.20 ERA. And this game at Cleveland was one of the most dominant outings I've ever seen. The Indians could barely make contact. Even though he never regained such form after leaving Oakland, he was for a short time, amazingly, among the best.
   161. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:35 PM (#2207425)
Except that the MLBPA isn't a union.

But this whole conversation probably belongs in a different thread.


Does that mean you don't want me to respond? Anyway, guild, union, whatever you want to call it, it represents labor vs management. And to the public at large, they're perceived as a union, rightly or wrongly. Union members, like myself, are going to back labor 100% of the time in these situations.

When the Writer's Guild went on strike several years ago, I was compelled to support them, as well. I rooted for them to prevail. Same with baseball's situation.
   162. Rear Admiral Piazza Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:35 PM (#2207426)
What. The. ####.
   163. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:37 PM (#2207428)
Were the players that called Lidle a scab the only people ever in his life to give him a hard time? You singled them out. That choice was political. You could have just as easily criticized sports columnists or talking heads that may have been rude to Lidle after poor pitching performances.

There's a difference between saying "X is a bad ballplayer" and saying "X is a bad man", as some people do say of "scabs".
   164. eerbeek Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:41 PM (#2207429)
NBC NEWS: 16 injured, 11 of which are firefighters. Still, just 2 confirmed dead.

They report a "student and instructor" were on the plane. Then, I thought perhaps Lidle rented the plane out when he wasn't using it or something.

That's preposterous, of course, becuase I am quite positive Lidle would have contacted authorities by now with the news that "reports of my death have been exaggerated".
   165. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:42 PM (#2207431)
Who knows, but he may have been intending to fly up the river for a look at Yankee Stadium before leaving for California this week. He might have considered it meaningful since his position with the club next year would be subject to change, whether by trade or release. Some might scoff, but it is special to wear the Yankee pinstripes and play at that stadium. In fact, any MLB uniform and field is special. Like every other major leaguer, Corey Lidle was one of the best baseball players in the world.

Very sad.
   166. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:44 PM (#2207433)
Again, John, in the abstract that is a lovely sentiment, but in the real world it's useless... at least in this instance.

Agreed but then again, the real world kinda sucks so that's hardly a ringing endorsement.

Please remember that labor issues often boil down to situations where families are devastated over what you reduce to a philosophical difference, and people who are sympathetic to Labor are going to react to any "scab" in a way that you may not like.

Of course the failure to treat labour correctly (greed) in the first place is what created the difference in the first place. I've never grasped how being treated poorly justifies passing that treatment along. If you don't like being kicked in the teeth because of money/philosophy then why do it to somebody else?

It sucks that Lidle died, but he was what he was, and maybe it also sucks for him in that he couldn't make amends with those he hurt when he made the decision to be a scab.

Who did he hurt? It was the owners that were causing the pain, not the scabs.

What about those that would be hurt if he didn't scab? Back in the 1930's a man might have had the choice--let the kids starve or scab. What's more important--a CBA or feeding the kids?

The MLBPA and the strike are world apart from this scenario but reacting badly toward people you feel acted badly doesn't end suffering--it perpetuates it.

If Albert Belle died this moment I would still stand by every unkind thing I ever said about him.

Fair enough, but if you saw him in a ditch after a car accident would you administer first aid or walk away? Saying something unkind about someone is different from doing something unkind *to* someone.

Look, I'm the first to admit that I'm a pie-in-the-sky idealist. But I've seen up close and real personal that realism and the current mindset of striking back at those who you feel 'done you wrong' may yield some short term visceral satisfaction but over the long haul doesn't erase the bad feelings, it prolongs it and often adds more.

One day you wake up and realize that others--often innocent people who never did you any harm--ended up suffering because you had to have your pound of flesh. They in turn want satisfaction and it becomes a vicious, nasty, circle.

All it leaves is a bunch of bad memories and regrets--oftentimes those regrets are permanent because the opportunity to make amends is gone.

Multiply that several fold and you've got a lot of collective misery to go around.

Treat people right, even if they've done you wrong may yield you the odd kick in the teeth but I'll tell you this much--that kick doesn't hurt for nearly as long and leaves fewer scars.

Best Regards

John
   167. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:45 PM (#2207434)
It's an inside joke, 6-4-3.

Do a google search for "Chris Truby" and "Albert Belle".


I know what the "joke" is (I was on rsbb when it originated). Its just not that funny anymore and hasn't been since the Clinton administration.
   168. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:45 PM (#2207435)
f-16's are lawndarts engine goes out there screwed


Fine, but this was not an F-16.
   169. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:45 PM (#2207436)
Joe, if I were you, I'd reexamine your position by considering how ridiculous the converse would be; someone who always supported management in any context and thought all strikers were crap that hurt the economy and my pocketbook.

Or just swap out "union" for "my religion" in your posts. Then you're a fundamentalist.
   170. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:45 PM (#2207437)
####, this sucks.
   171. Dewey, Soupuss Not Doomed to Succeed Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:46 PM (#2207438)
Does that mean you don't want me to respond?

It just means that I feel uncomfortable discussing this in this thread. Yes, Brattain brought it up, and that, I felt, was inappropriate too.
   172. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:46 PM (#2207439)
Wow. Sad, and so bizarre. This has probably been said, but even though Lidle's death is no more tragic for his having been a ballplayer (although obviously still very, very sad) it somehow feels so much like that, because there he was, alive and pitching on Saturday. Wow.
   173. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:47 PM (#2207441)
I know what the "joke" is (I was on rsbb when it originated). Its just not that funny anymore and hasn't been since the Clinton administration.

YOU don't find it funny. That doesn't mean it's not funny.
   174. Padgett Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:50 PM (#2207443)
YOU don't find it funny. That doesn't mean it's not funny.

It wasn't funny.
   175. JH (in DC) Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:50 PM (#2207444)
SportsCenter replaying Lidle's Sunday interview -- I don't know where they're going with this, but I don't think it can be good.
   176. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:50 PM (#2207445)
Fair enough, but if you saw him in a ditch after a car accident would you administer first aid or walk away?


I'm no good Samaritan. My instinct (I kid you not) would be to call 911 before trying to anything that I am not trained to do. I'm careful that way.
   177. eerbeek Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:51 PM (#2207447)
Our local sports guy is in Oakland right now. Weather doesn't appear to be an issue, the game doesn't appear to be headed for cancelation in any way, shape or form.

In fact, to hear our local guy reporting from the field, and Inge's wife reporting with her home movies, I have to wonder if they have even HEARD the news yet. The local sports guy didn't even MENTION the crash.

And, local news is still playing the "Bless You Boys" theme from '84 as though the game will go on as scheduled.

If you think about it, to reschedule the game because a player (who is NOT from either team participating) has tragically died would probably not be reason "enough" to go through the rescheduling gymnastics. If an A or Tiger were the victim, I could see cancelation. But Lidle's season was over.
   178. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:52 PM (#2207449)
You know what would be kind and charitable, to stop talking about ourselves in this thread. I'll take the pledge.
   179. Greg Franklin Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:53 PM (#2207450)
Yankees.com article just got updated with quotes from David Montgomery (Phillies president) and Derek Jeter. Link
   180. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:55 PM (#2207454)
I'm no good Samaritan. My instinct (I kid you not) would be to call 911 before trying to anything that I am not trained to do. I'm careful that way


But you would do something to help--in this case dial 911.

Best Regards

John
   181. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:56 PM (#2207455)
I'm hoping nobody uses "He died doing what he loved..." with regards to Lidle.
   182. Rear Admiral Piazza Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:56 PM (#2207456)
"But I'd be lying to say that I feel as bad about it as I would if it was someone who I knew was a truly good person. People have differing value to history, which is a taboo thing to say, but absolutely true, and something that has to be faced."

It's one thing to say you can't feel the greatest of sympathy for someone you didn't personally know. But it's pretty scummy to make a comment like that above, as if Lidle were this horrible man for his actions in 1995. Sorry, he wasn't. Lidle's actions were so hopelessly remote from impacting any average American anywhere that, if you are going to condemn him, you might as well condemn yourself, also - I suspect at some point in your life you've made use of the internal combustion engine, after all.
   183. The Non-Catching Molina (sjs1959) Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:56 PM (#2207457)
WNBC-TV was streaming, and they said that this make and model of plane (Cirrus SR-20) had been in 20 fatal crashes over the last five years; however, in almost all of them, the NTSB found that PILOT ERROR was the cause of the crash.

The Yankees.com report also indicated that Lidle called ATC almost immediately after takeoff to report fuel problems. I will wait for the NTSB report on this one.

This is a tragedy, and I agree with the poster who wished athletes would stop flying their own planes.
   184. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:57 PM (#2207460)
John, we'll agree to disagree, ok?

Dzop...as usual...whatever.
   185. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:59 PM (#2207466)

RIP the three poor nameless souls killed in their homes.


i realize that at this point it's been recanted that people were killed in the building, but how about paying some attention to the person other than Lidle that was killed, eh guys? i see a lot of people saying "RIP Cory" and such, but this other guy's relations might have it tougher.
   186. eerbeek Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:00 PM (#2207467)
Geeze, I just read my last sentence. It seems very thoughtless of me.

PLEASE do not think that was a sarcastic or irreverent remark. My point was just that he was no longer a participating player of MLB this season. To reschedule given that fact would be a little over the top, in my very humble opinion.
   187. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:01 PM (#2207471)
The Yankees.com report also indicated that Lidle called ATC almost immediately after takeoff to report fuel problems.


This is strange. If a problem is serious enough to report to ATC, you turn around and land. If is not serious enough to warrant landing immediately, you don't bother them.
   188. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:01 PM (#2207472)
You know what would be kind and charitable, to stop talking about ourselves in this thread. I'll take the pledge.


Hey, if somebody's death causes us to take a look at ourselves then that's a good thing.

Too many deaths go by without us ever giving it a second thought; if we reflected on it a little more maybe we'd appreciate those still alive a little more.

That's a good thing :-)

Best Regards

John
   189. Zac Schmitt Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:02 PM (#2207473)
the last thing i read about lidle before today was on peter abraham's yankee blog about him claiming he was misquoted in regards to his comments on torre, with peter afterwards saying he could personally confirm the veracity of the quote, and concluding by wishing lidle good luck with whatever team he ended up with next year (in what i took to be a sarcastic tone, but i dunno). at the time, i remember thinking how putzy a move it is to claim you were "misquoted" rather than just own up to it.

and wow, how things like that don't matter at all in the face of something like what happened today. i'm glad no one else was injured (as far as we know at the moment) and i'm honestly grieving for cory and the instructor's families.

i'm going to try and remember him for the couple of really nice games he threw for the yanks this year and none of the other silliness.
   190. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:03 PM (#2207476)
The Baseball union is one that I have traditionally sided with the players until the '94 strike.

Considering the owners were found to have negotiated in bad faith, '94 seems like a strange time to have stopped.
   191. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:04 PM (#2207477)
WNBC-TV was streaming, and they said that this make and model of plane (Cirrus SR-20) had been in 20 fatal crashes over the last five years; however, in almost all of them, the NTSB found that PILOT ERROR was the cause of the crash.


The plane is $187,000 and has a Lexus-like interior, says the Detroit NBC weatherman on MSNBC. Add the parachute, which at least gives the appearance of more safety, and I bet it becomes a favorite of rich, inexperienced pilots.
   192. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:04 PM (#2207478)
John, we'll agree to disagree, ok?


Fair enough. Always an acceptable resolution to any debate. :-)

Best Regards

John
   193. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:07 PM (#2207480)
i realize that at this point it's been recanted that people were killed in the building, but how about paying some attention to the person other than Lidle that was killed, eh guys? i see a lot of people saying "RIP Cory" and such, but this other guy's relations might have it tougher.


As the other person hasn't been identified, I guess it is a little harder to direct our sympathies.

But you are right Scott. Point taken.
   194. spycake Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:09 PM (#2207481)
He might have considered it meaningful since his position with the club next year would be subject to change, whether by trade or release.

Pardon my lack of knowledge about Yankees contracts, but:

Wasn't Lidle going to be a free agent? I don't recall any option years or anything either.
   195. Who Swished In Your Cornflakes? Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:10 PM (#2207483)
I'd like to hear Larry Bowa and Bobby Abreu's thoughts. Been following this story from early this afternoon at the newsroom. It's a sad, sad thing to have happened. At this point it may sound like an echo, but my condolences to the Lidle family.
   196. Banta Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:11 PM (#2207485)
Ah, jeez, they're saying on ESPN that Lidle's family hasn't even been informed yet, because they're on a commercial flight and can't be contacted.
   197. Dixiechick Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:11 PM (#2207486)
I found Rob's stab at humour much less offensive than the sanctimonious criticism of it.

As a Blue Jay fan, I'm hoping that there's no truth to the rumour that Cashman's gonna offer Cory Lidle to Ricciardi in a deal.
   198. eerbeek Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:12 PM (#2207488)
Mets game cancelled for weather.

Inge (Detroit) just actually had those dreaded words tumble out of his mouth... "He died doing what he loved most".

Reports: Yeah, he called right away. But why would he continue with the flight instead of aborting? They say it was within a minute of take off.

Eyewitness Pilots: He was weaving in and out of buildings in Manhattan, against rules established... he was allowed to "skirt" the island by flying up and down the rivers, but was NOT allowed within the city.

Something is terribly wrong here. An instructor on board who doesn't demand aborting the flight right away and a pilot who doesn't abort at the first sign of trouble and is oh-so-close to adequate facilities and help to do so? Instead, they radio that there is a problem and then fly from NJ all the way to Manhanttan?
   199. Guapo Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:13 PM (#2207489)
More on baseball's reaction, from the Miami Herald's website:

Barry Zito and Eric Chavez were among Lidle's teammates in Oakland in 2002, his last season with the A's. And Macha said he expected some in the clubhouse to have trouble dealing with news of the accident.

''`I imagine our chapel guy will be around,'' Macha said. ``I'm sure people are going to have their feelings about it, just maybe put the game in perspective. It's tragic. Tough to describe.''



http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/15734611.htm
   200. vern_fuller_brushback Posted: October 11, 2006 at 11:15 PM (#2207490)
The CBC (Canada) was totally bush. They exploited the terrorism possibility for many minutes during their supper-hour newscast, including in their headlines and lead-ins. They then aired what they knew all along: that the pilot had been Lidle. Just the smell of terrorism seemed so much more appealing than telling what they knew right off the bat. Very sad, as the story itself.
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