Owings does, and Smith and Ohlendorf look like middle-of-the-rotation guys. Steven Jackson, who missed some time with an injury, has taken a big step forward this year as well, and don't count out Eddie Baeza, who handled himself well at South Bend although he's finding the sledding a bit tougher at Lancaster.

Matt Torra has frontline starter stuff, and could make it up the ladder as fast as Owings if he comes back completely healthy. The 2006 draft produced a few interesting names but they are far far away...

Byrnes has downgraded the team's Hernandez brother and spent a bunch of money + prospects to do it with Julio being the consolation prize. Rizzo got a couple of arms with some hope and saved his team $7 million next season.

Come on, Owings doesn't project as a frontline starter. On what basis? Just based on stuff, his fastball drops into the 90-91 range as a starter and his secondary aren't considered plus-plus. If Owings is a frontline no.1-2 type, then someone like Cesar Carrillo is the next Jake Peavy. On performance, granted he's only had 10 starts at triple-a in his full pro season, to even be at triple-a is good but his numbers are pretty piss poor. 10.43 hits/9, 4.40 BB/9 and 5.22 K/9 from a neutral G/F pitcher is someone who is overmatched.

And I wouldn't put Matt Torra, he of the partially torn labrum, in the good prospect category just yet, as if pitchers in the first round are all successes. Levski, you have boundless optimism for nearly all d-backs prospects and yet you can't understand why other people might have the same for their teams'.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask questions about what's changed with the FO since the season started: How could they go from so good to "Well, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt" overnight? Why did they stop leveraging for the future? I haven't heard any explanation for this.

DFA Ortiz (presumably rather than Green)? Fine, but:

- Ortiz wasn't blocking anyone
- Ortiz could've filled a needed role: garbage innings
- Green's a .264 EQA with butcher defense blocking Quentin

Melvin's extended because he's Byrnes' Art Howe? Fine, but:

- Why is the bullpen still being fried?
- Why haven't they been skipping the fifth starter?
- Why hasn't Webb been going every fifth day a la Johnson?
- Why was Clark playing so much to start the year?
- Why is Green still playing?
- Why aren't players disciplined for dogging it?

Better platooning and a clubhouse full of happy Quitters isn't worth the above.

Keep playing Green:

- Too expensive to trade + NTC
- Can't hit enough to DH; can't field enough to carry his bat
- Team isn't going to get anything and it will cost them a fortune, anyway

Byrnes did not clear the decks for Quentin, who has been MLB-ready for some time. He did not bench Green when it was obvious that he had completely collapsed. He did not bench Green when the trade deadline passed despite claims that the team is going for it.

And then this trade, which makes no sense in light of an earlier trade. I think people are being way too lenient on Byrnes. This team could be leading the division with a more proactive FO at almost any point in the season. Remember, they didn't start playing any rookie full-time until injuries forced their hand. Even Jackson was getting pulled in late innings.

I see no reason to think Byrnes has some master plan at this point. I see a guy who is doing his best not to make waves. His in-season moves don't add up to anything: he isn't putting the best team on the field for the present, or the one for the future. The Marlins Way™ works; Placateball doesn't. It's killed the team in the past, and it looks to be here again. I'm not going to get excited because he didn't sell the farm - that's the bare ####### minimum one should expect of a GM: don't do monstrously stupid ####.

Come on, Owings doesn't project as a frontline starter. On what basis? Just based on stuff, his fastball drops into the 90-91 range as a starter and his secondary aren't considered plus-plus. If Owings is a frontline no.1-2 type, then someone like Cesar Carrillo is the next Jake Peavy. On performance, granted he's only had 10 starts at triple-a in his full pro season, to even be at triple-a is good but his numbers are pretty piss poor. 10.43 hits/9, 4.40 BB/9 and 5.22 K/9 from a neutral G/F pitcher is someone who is overmatched.

The person on this thread who suggested Owings could be a front line starter is Mike Emeigh, and I wager he knows a lot more about Owings than you do. From your comments, it doesn't even sound like you've seen Owings pitch before. True or false?

And Steven Jackson, he looks good at preventing homeruns but he allowed 11.63 hits/9 in low-A ball after spending four years at Clemson. I can't imagine anyone with that on his minor league resume being a mid-rotation starter, who are just a little less rare than no.1-2 types. He's not one someone I would use to say that the farm system has good up and coming arms on the way.

- Ortiz could've filled a needed role: garbage innings


No, Ortiz could not even do that. You are just looking for bullet points here. You need to take this one out

- Why haven't they been skipping the fifth starter?
- Why hasn't Webb been going every fifth day a la Johnson?


I think Webb pitched on 5 days rest instead of 4 days rest 4 times all year. And he is on the verge of a DL stint with a sore elbow/forearm. But you are upset because of those 4 times he was given the extra day of rest? I don't understand?

Again....it seems like you are searching for bullet points here.

I have been pretty vocal today about not believing in Livan. If I am wrong, and he can give them over 200 innings this year and next year(pro-rated for this season of course) at 100 ERA+ or better from now till the end of 2007, then it won't be that bad. I just don't think he profiles as a guy who will do that in our ballpark. Hopefully, I am wrong, and Josh Byrnes is a better judge than I am.

Yes, you got me. No, I haven't actually seen him pitch live, only on video. I'm sorry I chimed in I guess and you would be rich if you made that wager. If Emeigh thinks he projects to be a frontline starter, which would put him in with the likes of Homer Bailey and Phillip Hughes and Nick Adenhart right now, well, I guess he is one, even though BA's draft report on him concluded with: "He doesn't have a dominant out pitch and projects more as a set-up man with a bulldog attitude."

This team could be leading the division with a more proactive FO at almost any point in the season.

Or if they just hadn't signed Grimsley. The team's winning percentage is pretty spectacular if you take out the 3-20 surrounding the Grimsley incident.

I don't think Owings is necessarily going to be an ace or even a good starter at the big league level, I just wanted to point out that there are those "in the know" who think he's good. simply cut-pasting his AAA numbers while ignoring his (very good) AA numbers and glossing over his scouting report is just lazy analysis, even if you're right in the end.

Thanks for pointing out whatever you pointed out in the most a88hole way possible Kyle S.

Thanks for pointing out whatever you pointed out in the most a88hole way possible Kyle S.

It couldn't have happened to a nicer, kinder, more thoughtful poster on primer...

***

Robert, you are scaring me, man. Just relax. Breathe in, breathe out. It'll help.

It couldn't have happened to a nicer, kinder, more thoughtful poster on primer...

A dig without Dustin Pedroia in it? You're slipping Levski, you really are...

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5853890

RoboThal: D-Backs made right move in getting Hernandez

Hernandez, under contract for $7 million in 2007, also is the equivalent of an off-season acquisition, giving the D-Backs an edge in what promises to be a very thin pitching market.

"I'm not sure what's going to be out there," D-Backs general manager Josh Byrnes said. "To get a good pitcher, know his price and know his length (of contract), that's a good outcome for us."

...

A month ago, Byrnes scoffed at predictions that Hernandez would clear waivers, knowing full well that at least one team — his team — would claim the pitcher.

The D-Backs offered the Nationals a less significant return for Hernandez before the July 31 non-waiver deadline, but their urgency increased when Webb missed his most recent start with a sore elbow.

even if you're right in the end

gross

First off: I hope Livan is good. I like Livan. I don't buy him in this park with this outfield, though. Not for a second. A healthy and productive Livan next year is a good thing. Don't think it's going to happen. Not for a second. I hope I'm wrong.

No, Ortiz could not even do that. You are just looking for bullet points here. You need to take this one out

Sure, he could. Byrnes and Melvin don't have the balls to make him, though. Russ wouldn't give you a chance to get back in games, but he can throw innings if the management would make him. Losing longshot games is a small price to pay to protect Pena and Medders.

I think Webb pitched on 5 days rest instead of 4 days rest 4 times all year. And he is on the verge of a DL stint with a sore elbow/forearm. But you are upset because of those 4 times he was given the extra day of rest? I don't understand?

I said this to start the season: I want the team to pitch Webb every fifth day, and everyone else to be scheduled around him. There is no excuse for not skipping a fifth starter on off-days. None. I don't think anyone knows why Webb's elbow is sore, but I'd guess that an every fifth day routine would be better than what they've done the past two seasons.

Robert, you are scaring me, man. Just relax. Breathe in, breathe out. It'll help.

I'm really not all that upset about this move, honest. I just think less and less of Byrnes as this season progresses. The ceiling of this is that the team will make a net overpay for a league-averageish starter next year. Be still, my heart.

The substance of my point stands: the team's half-assed approach blows. They have failed to leverage themselves in any positive way I can see. It's reached the point where I think, barring new information, that there is plenty of reason to believe there is no meaningful plan in place. If anything, the in-season moves look like Bowden's work: good on their own with little larger purpose.

I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

Just heard on the D-backs broadcast that Livan is another ex-Moorad client. Should've guessed. Green's not going anywhere. Hell, I'd be surprised if Gonzo's gone next year.

Anyone have a list of Moorad's clients? I'd like to see who else I have to look forward to these next few years.

#### this.

Anyone have a list of Moorad's clients? I'd like to see who else I have to look forward to these next few years.

Manny? <anti-levski>Steven Drew and Justin Upton for Manny Ramirez</levski>

If Emeigh thinks he projects to be a frontline starter, which would put him in with the likes of Homer Bailey and Phillip Hughes and Nick Adenhart right now, well, I guess he is one, even though BA's draft report on him concluded with: "He doesn't have a dominant out pitch and projects more as a set-up man with a bulldog attitude."

Owings isn't *that* far behind those other three. He's added some velocity since that BA draft report and has sharpened his breaking stuff, although it still jumps out of the zone on him occasionally.

I spoke to one of my scouting acquaintances today. He likes Mock (he was kind of surprised the D'backs let him go), and thinks Chico is a "dime-a-dozen" lefty (he compared him to West Tenn's Chris Shaver and Carolina's Paul Mildren).

-- MWE

And somehow Bowden wasn't able to get Milledge for him.

This deal is not so bad for Arizona. After a lousy start, Livan is back to pitching the way he usually does. And neither of the prospects is a star. Sickels had Mock as a B and Chico as a C coming into the year. Maybe you'd bump Chico up a bit now, but they're still both very touchable, as it were.

I do see a purpose. Playing Green and Gonzalez isn't really costing games, since the difference between either one and Quuentin for a whole year is within the pythagorean give-or-take, I'm sure. Hell, the difference between Alex Rodriguez and Shea Hillenbrand is probably no more than five games. In the meantime, there's no damage to the development of Quentin, who I'm sure has been told that he's a starter next year, so there's no chance of him getting discouraged. Jackson is already playing a lot more than Clark, I think (I haven't gravitated to that part of their boxscores recently, but I have that impression from what I have seen)), so he's not being hurt either. Now, those aren't reasons to play Green, but Green is a respected player, and well-liked by the rank-and-file fan of the Diamondbacks. If he were benched, the teams's other veterans, the ones they actually need to continue the contending that they seem to be doing, might just quit. The number of teams expected to be good but who turned out not to be over the past two years has started to convince me that there's something to that, however little. Just as important, and much more demonstrable, is the effect that jettisoning Green, and to an even greater extend Gonzalez, would have at the box office. A baseball team is in business to make money. Now, when one acts like the Pirates do, and makes money at the expense of having a good, or even resppectable team, that's one thing; it's unndignified and frankly unnsportsmanlike. But when a team does what the Diamondbacks are doing, which is to win essentially the same number of games with popular players as they would with less popular ones, when the money is already spent, the popular players can't be traded for anything of value, and the team's not doing stupid things like signing them for subsequent seasons or trading the young players, thenm that's just intellegent business. You want them to play the younger players in order to save money, and (I presume) spend it in the free-agent market for players that you'd like to see them sign. Well, that's not quite the equation for the rest of 2006; they can't pay any less, Green isn't significantly worse, his presence might conceivably make the team play better, and it definitely causes them to sell more tickets, commercials, hats, and jackets.

Green is not popular in Arizona.

Well...I just hope Livan doesn't suck. But even if he goes 9 innings every start from here on in, it's too late to save the D Backs bullpen. Those arms are completely gassed. And the Cintron for Bajenaru trade is looking like a swing and a miss. OH well. Can't win em all.

Getting rid of Cintron was an end unto itself.

Sorry, Robert, I assumed he was. Gonzalez must be, though, right? But even if he's not so popular, trading him would make the morons think they're giving up, unless the morons know about Quentin. Has the fanbase been educated about Quentin?

Gonzo could be the Baseline Killer and people wouldn't care.

Fans like Quentin; fans LOVE Drew; Jackson's got a ways to go.

It sounds like things are better than they could be from that perspective, then. IIt's slightly discouraging that Drew is the one of those players who didn't displace a superficially productive veteran. Choosing Quentin over Green speaks well of the fans, though.

I wouldn't give the "fans" TOO much credit. Nobody knew who Quentin was when he was called up. My friend who sells programs on the corner outside the stadium put him on the cover of his program, and most of the people walking by had no clue who he was. Q hit 4 homers in his first 16 at bats, (including one in his first game, and later a game winner in Houston) and had a couple of other big "clutch" hits. Had he started off slow, he would not be getting such a warm welcome.

The AVERAGE fan in the stands, (from listening to conversations) have not bought into Jackson yet. They never do with this type of player unless they hit .330 early in their career.

Drew of course everyone loves, because he has made plenty of highlight reel plays and has hit right out of the box.

Green has his loyalists, and those that like him really think that he is much better than he is.
I was talking to a father of one of the other kids on my sons little league team. I was trying to explain to him why Greens' BA is not really indicative of his offensive value. He got really upset, and said I was just a Shawn Green hater and I was UNREASONABLE. This guy is the lead Thoracic Surgeon at a large local hospital, not some internet fanboy. We had been on very friendly terms. And he got completely flipped out....and trust me, I was being gentle, choosing my words very carefully so as not to offend, not like we would in here.

Not exactly the most PC point that I've ever made, but Green had very strong support from Jewish fans in Toronto and LA. He was also treated well (for a road player) in New York, presumably for the same reason. Especially in the years when he was hitting 40 homers, but even after he lost his power stroke in LA he got a lot of support. It wouldn't surprise me if a good chunk of his Arizona fanbase root for him on account of his religion.

Damn you, shoe. . . I was going to write essentially the same thing, albeit less well. But then I got distracted by WORK. I'll resign myself to seconding what you wrote. Quentin and Drew are popular NOT because the fans are exercising any particular level of discretion but because these guys have done some VERY obvious things: flashy plays (Drew) and run-scoring hits (Q).

Whether someone actually helps the team win games remains a bit beyond the plurality of Dback fans' reach.

6-4-3. . . There is indeed *some* ethnic-ness to some of the support for Green, but I would hesitate to describe it as "strong". OTOH, I thought I recalled the Dodger faithful booing him rather vocally on the occasional visit I made to the park or their broadcasts. Before I ramble my way completely off topic, the point I intended to make is that Green has his fans, as shoe noted.

One further point, since I'm typing. I love reading Robert's comments because he usually makes me THINK. But Robert is (in my view) ignoring the human aspect of this business. These are people, not baseball cards. DFAing a guy changes lives - those of the person DFA'd and his family/friends. It also impacts how others view the organization. Like many of you, I run a business. The staffing changes we have had to make (we had to 'DFA' someone not too long ago) have been unbelievably and excruciatingly difficult for that very reason.

Byrnes inherited a near-disaster of a roster when he signed on. I would have liked to have seen a few things handled differently than he has handled them, but not appreciably and there is no way to know that he did not TRY to resolve things in the manner I desired. The bottom line is that he continues to make progress toward the resolution of those inherited problems and I continue to have confidence in his plan.

Keep 'em coming, Robert. You are spot on. . . if a bit extreme for me. (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

regards,
Stephen

Robert is our Toby Zigler.

Man, I wish I could come to be a named part of the DBacks community. Of course I'd have to start following baseball and venture outside the Lounge for more than five minutes at a time.

ouch
Garrett Mock didn't even get out of the first inning today in his Eastern League debut for the Senators. A HBP and a walk along with six hits plated five runs. A number of the balls hit by the Sea Dogs appeared to be well-struck.

A tough start with the new org.