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Sunday, August 03, 2014

Livingston: Jim Thome is Cleveland Indians’ HR leader, but statue should have been Omar Vizquel

Updating the Lord Livingston calendar…

Thome played for six teams and spent nine seasons elsewhere, despite saying, before he left Cleveland the first time, “They’ll have to tear the uniform off my back,” although really all the Phillies had to do was dangle a massive contract while the players union squeezed, and off popped the uniform, neatly enough.

A lot of Indians from the 1990s, led by Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez, chased the last dollar without saying their laundry would have to be shredded before it would be shed. A few others -– George Brett in Kansas City, a smaller market than Cleveland, Cal Ripken in Baltimore, Derek Jeter, moving nimbly despite the Brinks truck strapped to his back in New York -– stayed with one team for their entire careers.

A nice man with a simple approach to life, Thome was in the shadow of either Belle or Ramirez much of the time he was here. He was never a great leader, except as a leader in bashing in an era –- although I firmly believe Thome was absolutely clean – of pharmaceutical-enhanced bashers.

While preaching self-sacrifice, he yet managed contractual self-indulgence, or at least indulgence of those close to him, and lacked the resolve to carve out his own path. He was offered his name on the left field home run porch, a lifetime job with the team and the chance to be a second franchise icon for life.  It was not enough.

The statue could have gone to another player who was one of the best, not only of his era, but of any era, at his position—shortstop—which did not come down to playing batter (designated hitter, Thome’s role eventually.)

This other player was told he and the final pair of his 11 Gold Gloves awards, which he was to win elsewhere, were expendable in the grand, mission statement-fueled rebuilding project that was to begin.

The statue should have been of Omar Vizquel.

Repoz Posted: August 03, 2014 at 09:39 AM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: indians

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   1. Jeltzandini Posted: August 03, 2014 at 09:55 AM (#4763330)
Hottest of takes.
   2. McCoy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4763331)
Cal Ripken signed a contract that at the time was the largest in baseball history and the negotiations over that contract were not a walk through the daisies.
   3. McCoy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4763332)
George Brett signed a 5 year + 2 option years extension in 1984 that would kick in in 1987. By 1990 he was demanding a renegotiation of the contract or else he wanted to be traded. The Royals did in fact rework the contract and gave him more money. And we of course all remember how the Yankees had to back up the money truck on Jeter's last contract negotiations.
   4. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:09 AM (#4763333)
Thome played for six teams and spent nine seasons elsewhere

And Vizquel played for five teams and spent thirteen seasons -- more than half his career -- elsewhere. What's your point?

Also, in what universe is Vizquel considered one of the greatest shortstops of all time?
   5. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:10 AM (#4763334)
Was Cleveland's offer to retain Thome anywhere near the 6/85 he got from Philly?
   6. McCoy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:16 AM (#4763335)
The Indians offered a 5 yr 60 million contract in which their final offer was the addition of a 6th year vesting option. The Phillies contract had a 7th year option and the could have given him as much as 100 million dollars.
   7. Swedish Chef Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:24 AM (#4763336)
And we of course all remember how the Yankees had to back up the money truck on Jeter's last contract negotiations.

You got that wrong, it was Jeter who unselfishly took the Yankee's shoddy offer instead of being hardnosed about the reasonable 10/250M deal he wanted.
   8. bobm Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4763337)
Most WAA as Indian, 1901-

                                                                                         
Rk                 Player WAA/pos From   To   Age    G   PA   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS       Pos
1              Nap Lajoie    53.9 1902 1914 27-39 1614 6695 .339 .389 .452 .840    *43/65
2            Tris Speaker    49.5 1916 1926 28-38 1521 6633 .354 .444 .520 .965      *8/H
3            Lou Boudreau    41.9 1938 1950 20-32 1560 6708 .296 .382 .416 .798  *6/5H342
4            Kenny Lofton    29.3 1992 2007 25-40 1276 5767 .300 .375 .426 .800    *8/7HD
5              Larry Doby    28.1 1947 1958 23-34 1235 5079 .286 .389 .500 .889 *8/9H7463
6               Jim Thome    27.7 1991 2011 20-40 1399 5805 .287 .414 .566 .980    *35D/H
7            Earl Averill    24.4 1929 1939 27-37 1510 6712 .322 .399 .542 .940     *8/H9
8    Shoeless Joe Jackson    23.8 1910 1915 22-27  674 2854 .375 .441 .542 .983    *98/37
9              Joe Sewell    21.1 1920 1930 21-31 1513 6580 .320 .398 .425 .823    *65/H4
10               Al Rosen    19.2 1947 1956 23-32 1044 4374 .285 .384 .495 .879  *5/3H647
11            Elmer Flick    16.2 1902 1910 26-34  935 4020 .299 .371 .422 .792    *98/47
12          Manny Ramirez    15.8 1993 2000 21-28  967 4095 .313 .407 .592 .998     *9/DH
13           Bill Bradley    15.5 1901 1910 23-32 1231 5193 .272 .317 .373 .690   *5/6431
14            Ken Keltner    14.6 1937 1949 20-32 1513 6280 .276 .337 .441 .778      *5/H
15         Grady Sizemore    14.1 2004 2011 21-28  892 4047 .269 .357 .473 .830     *8/DH
16           Albert Belle    13.9 1989 1996 22-29  913 3925 .295 .369 .580 .949    *7D/9H
[...]
19         Roberto Alomar    13.1 1999 2001 31-33  471 2068 .323 .405 .515 .920     *4/HD
[...]
35           Omar Vizquel     7.8 1994 2004 27-37 1478 6542 .283 .352 .379 .731     *6/H9


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 8/3/2014.
   9. TJ Posted: August 03, 2014 at 11:17 AM (#4763345)

Also, in what universe is Vizquel considered one of the greatest shortstops of all time?


I can think of two- this writer's mind and that of the BBWAA Hall of Fame voters, where Vizquel will surely do better than a truly great shortstop who played his entire career with one team and never made a big deal about his contract, one Alan Trammell...
   10. Spahn Insane Posted: August 03, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4763348)
The lionization of Omar Vizquel by certain media folk is one of the stranger phenomena I can remember seeing in my 34 years of baseball fandom.
   11. cardsfanboy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4763356)
The lionization of Omar Vizquel by certain media folk is one of the stranger phenomena I can remember seeing in my 34 years of baseball fandom.


I'm not sure what is strange about it, Vizquel represented the old school shortstop, the defense first player at the defensivy of all the defensive positions. He didn't try to do things shortstops weren't supposed to do, like hit or get on base or strike out, but instead he perfected the art of bare handing a routine bouncer, proving his greatness as the best defensive player in an era of two way players. He's a throw back, he's better than hofer Ozzie Smith defensively(as shown by his .985 fielding percentage vs Ozzies .978) and was a better hitter as you can see by his .272(and .283 as an Indian) career average over Ozzie's .262
   12. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 03, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4763364)
I wouldn't be surprised, if you did a deep archive dive, if you found similar reflexive lionization of guys who represented the baseball values of two decades previous to the publication date of many an article. The fetishization of one-team guys in the 80s and 90s was a manifestation of this, for instance. I am dead certain that sportswriters in the 60s were moaning about how there weren't any great sluggers like Williams and Musial anymore, just was sportswriters in the 90s (and still today) ##### about how there are no tough iron men like Gibson and Ryan to go out and throw one billion innings a start and swallow the sun with a pint of whiskey in the clubhouse afterwards.
   13. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: August 03, 2014 at 12:34 PM (#4763378)
re: the list in #8--if you restrict it from 1920 to now, Omar is 28th in WAA as an Indian. He's behind Shin-Soo Choo, Bobby Avila, Woodie Held, John Romano, and even Nettles, who only played 3 years for the tribe
   14. PreservedFish Posted: August 03, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4763397)
I wouldn't be surprised, if you did a deep archive dive, if you found similar reflexive lionization of guys who represented the baseball values of two decades previous to the publication date of many an article.


Nice comment. I am sure this is correct. I can only guess how intense this was in the 20s and 30s, when the deadball game players clearly represented a totally different strategy and aesthetic.
   15. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: August 03, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4763401)
Fruits of random research: Adam Dunn will probably get there, but--amazingly given the game context of the past 20 years--if he doesn't then Reggie Jackson's career strikeouts record is going to remain safe for a long time. Jim Thome fell 50 strikeouts short.
   16. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 03, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4763402)
I am dead certain that sportswriters in the 60s were moaning about how there weren't any great sluggers like Williams and Musial anymore,


In the 1970s, sportswriters bemoaned the fact that today's supposed superstars couldn't even hit .300. Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt got this treatment a lot. Rod Carew was considered the best hitter in baseball.
   17. cardsfanboy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4763423)
Fruits of random research: Adam Dunn will probably get there, but--amazingly given the game context of the past 20 years--if he doesn't then Reggie Jackson's career strikeouts record is going to remain safe for a long time. Jim Thome fell 50 strikeouts short.


Mark Reynolds is only 30 years old and is 1200 behind (he managed to rack up 1300 in 8 seasons....although he's unlikely to be around for another 7 years.
   18. jdennis Posted: August 03, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4763429)
I don't believe in statues/retired numbers for people unless they were lifers or damn near like a Berra or Mays. Thome only played 60% of his career with the tribe. I wouldn't do the statue. Or one for Vizquel, obv. It's like the Tar Heels building a statue of Vince Carter. At the same time, I might retire a number or do a statue for a player less legendary that was a lifer. It's about creating a team identity that is its own.
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4763434)
I don't believe in statues/retired numbers for people unless they were lifers or damn near like a Berra or Mays.


I was going to say I agree, but then I thought of several exceptions that I would make. Such as Ozzie Smith for the Cardinals, Ken Griffey Jr for the Mariners, Gary Carter for the Mess(and even Keith Hernandez as his announcing has allowed him to be more identified with them) and if there were no roid rumors, I could see Sosa for the Cubs, McGwire for the Cardinals and Bonds for the Giants.
   20. mos def panel Posted: August 03, 2014 at 02:57 PM (#4763453)
Hi, I'm
   21. mos def panel Posted: August 03, 2014 at 02:58 PM (#4763455)
JI THOME
   22. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 03, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4763485)
I was going to say I agree, but then I thought of several exceptions that I would make. Such as Ozzie Smith for the Cardinals, Ken Griffey Jr for the Mariners, Gary Carter for the Mess(and even Keith Hernandez as his announcing has allowed him to be more identified with them) and if there were no roid rumors, I could see Sosa for the Cubs, McGwire for the Cardinals and Bonds for the Giants.
The Orioles certainly consider Frank Robinson to be their star, despite the fact that he played just six years for them.
   23. toratoratora Posted: August 03, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4763519)
In the 1970s, sportswriters bemoaned the fact that today's supposed superstars couldn't even hit .300. Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt got this treatment a lot. Rod Carew was considered the best hitter in baseball.

A decade later in the 80's they decried the death of the complete game, the lack of the 300 innings pitcher,high era's, the decline of the 20 game winner and the shrinking testicular fortitude of the modern pitcher as opposed to studs such as Gibson and Drysdale and, by mid to late decade, it was debated whether anyone would ever win 300 after the last of the 60's/70's guys retired.

The 90's though....I remember turning to a fellow stratomatic player circa 95 or so and saying, "We live in an era of giants."

Players like Lofton were all around talents like the 70's, Clemens and Maddux pitched like it was deadball, Gwynn hit like Cobb Lite, Bonds was the second coming of Mays, power hitters like McGwire and Griffey were going apeshit as if the 30's had returned, people were doing crazy crap like hitting .370 with power, Bags had just tossed out one of the great slugging season ever and Thomas was on a roll that hadn't been seen since Williams, hitting for high average, walking 120 times a year while still hitting for power.

Even then, we thought it was a golden era of talent and baseball.

Man, that turned ugly fast.
   24. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: August 03, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4763560)
The statue should have been of....


wow, this has Jeter jokes written all over it. Please, please, please let someone suggest a jeter statue somewhere in Yankee stadium; the rest would just write itself.
   25. tolbuck Posted: August 03, 2014 at 07:33 PM (#4763574)
I don't understand why the Tribe needed another statue. Isn't Feller enough? If you need a position player's statue out in Heritage Park I think Doby or Lajoie are better choices than Thome.

As for Vizquel, it is funny how soon people in Cleveland forgot his behavior on his way out the door. Boy did he whine and complain his last season in Cleveland, and a lot of fans thought he was loafing on the field. His fielding numbers were quite a bit worse in '04 than they were in '03. A large segment of the fan base wanted to turn to Peralta by the end of the season.

   26. Walt Davis Posted: August 03, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4763591)
Also, in what universe is Vizquel considered one of the greatest shortstops of all time?

Things are changing and it was never universal, but when folks of my generation or earlier (and maybe later) refer to somebody as a "great SS", we generally mean a "great defensive SS". Somebody like Jim Fregosi was "a good hitter ... for a SS."

One can of course still make the case that Vizquel was not actually one of the greatest defensive SS of all time but you'd have a hard time saying a guy with 11 GG wasn't _considered_ one of the greatest defensive SS of all time.

And as I point out every time this comes up, the BBWAA has done very well by defensive SS -- Maranville, Aparicio and Ozzie all voted in, Concepcion on the ballot all 15 years. Belanger is the only "recognized" great defensive SS who got no HoF love but he was a really, really bad hitter with very few PA (by HoF standards) and only a few seasons as a full-timer.

If you don't dig very deep, Omar looks a lot like Ozzie (OV vs. OS)

GG 11 13
H 2877 2460
BA 272 262
OBP 336 337
R 1446 1257
OPS+ 82 87

The most distinguishing characteristic is that Ozzie made it to 15 AS games while Vizquel only 3. Vizquel was hurt being in the AL with ARod, Jeter, Nomar and Tejada -- put him in the NL in those years and I suspect he'd be pushing 10 AS games (sub when Larkin was healthy, starting when he wasn't). But obviously that's also reflective of his true overall SS ranking within his generation.

Vizquel didn't do himself any favors hanging on. .5 WAR over his last 1800 PA. If you take him through age 39, he's got an 86 OPS+, 276/342/360 line, 2472 hits, 1283 runs -- he's Ozzie's doppleganger.

The WAR differences are interesting -- about 14 wins of fielding, 2 of positional adjustment, 3-4 of batting ... and 9 of baserunning/DP (!) ... and about 4 wins of RAR/WAR conversion. But if you're a somewhat old school voter, the nearly equal GG mean the defense was about equal ... the offensive era conversion might weirdly work in Vizquel's favor (he had a long career despite being surrounded by sluggers) and while Ozzie's baserunning edge would be recognized, I doubt anybody would consider it dramatic. The old school voter won't consider Omar to be Ozzie's equal but I think they'd put them close enough to give Omar a good shot with them. But he stands essentially no shot with the new school voter so I can't imagine he makes it until the VC.
   27. cardsfanboy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 08:38 PM (#4763601)
Excellent post Walt.

And as I point out every time this comes up, the BBWAA has done very well by defensive SS -- Maranville, Aparicio and Ozzie all voted in, Concepcion on the ballot all 15 years. Belanger is the only "recognized" great defensive SS who got no HoF love but he was a really, really bad hitter with very few PA (by HoF standards) and only a few seasons as a full-timer.


Have to agree here, they might suck at catcher and third base and all around players(like Trammel) but they have pretty much nailed the defense first shortstops. Even before they needed advanced stats to help them out.
   28. Buzzards Bay Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4763626)
Boudreau 1% BBWAA --1956
77.3% --1970 and HOF Induction
1948 --9 SO and 98 BB with power and ave--love that batting line that year--per bbref
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: August 03, 2014 at 10:31 PM (#4763632)
Boudreau 1% BBWAA --1956
77.3% --1970 and HOF Induction
1948 --9 SO and 98 BB with power and ave--love that batting line that year--per bbref


I think it's arguable that the writers didn't fully realize that Boudreau was eligible(per his 24% vote total the next year)

Of course is that evidence that they need the 15 years of voting.
   30. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 03, 2014 at 11:28 PM (#4763649)
It's like the Tar Heels building a statue of Vince Carter.


The man played his whole college career there and has a degree from the institution. The team was great while he was there. That strikes me as perfect qualification, whether or not he decided to stick around to milk another year out of his eligibility.
   31. silhouetted by the sea Posted: August 04, 2014 at 04:27 AM (#4763695)
wow, this has Jeter jokes written all over it. Please, please, please let someone suggest a jeter statue somewhere in Yankee stadium; the rest would just write itself.


I watched the Red Sox-Yankees game Sunday night and I thought they had already put up a Jeter statue. Although it seemed kind of strange to put it in Fenway Park where the shortstop usually plays.
   32. vivaelpujols Posted: August 04, 2014 at 07:30 AM (#4763704)
which did not come down to playing batter


Ah yeah what a trivial roles "batter" plays in baseball.

Moronic article. As #4 points out Vizquel was even less of an Indian than Thome
   33. tribefan Posted: August 04, 2014 at 07:53 AM (#4763708)
Livingston is the worst.
   34. Jeff R., P***y Mainlander Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:10 AM (#4763736)
For what it's worth, Jim Thome was hugely popular during his time in Minnesota. I still see Thome jerseys on a regular basis, no mean feat for a part-time DH who was here for a year and half over three years ago.
   35. TJ Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:47 AM (#4763759)
If the Indians wants to put up a statue in honor of a memorable member of the Tribe, I suggest one of that guy who beats the drum up in the stands every night. It could be made by the Disney animatronics people, and fans could use the movable arms to crack open their peanuts on his drum...

That makes at least as much sense as it does to put a statue of Jim Thome or Omar Vizquel out there instead of one for Earl Averill or Lou Boudreau. Personally, I would prefer one of Leon "Daddy Wags" Wagner, and it could feature some of his colorful outfits from the 1960's...
   36. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 04, 2014 at 09:53 AM (#4763763)
Boudreau 1% BBWAA --1956
77.3% --1970 and HOF Induction
1948 --9 SO and 98 BB with power and ave--love that batting line that year--per bbref


Lou Boudreau in 1948 may have had the greatest combination of individual statistical and team achievement in the history of baseball.

.355 BA
18 home runs
106 RBI
165 OPS+
98 walks
9 strikeouts
3.5 DWaR

American League MVP
Sporting News Major League Player of the Year

And Manager of the World Champions

   37. Ziggy Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4763845)
Yeah, I'll play the Jeter game:

I thought they decided to take down his statue after this year?
   38. DanG Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4763846)
I think it's arguable that the writers didn't fully realize that Boudreau was eligible(per his 24% vote total the next year)

Of course is that evidence that they need the 15 years of voting.
Not even arguable. Boudreau was not eligible in 1956, having last played in 1952. There was no "official" list of eligible players, the 5-year-wait rule had only been introduced a couple years before, one voter didn't know or didn't care, and the HOF decided to count the vote anyway.

And yes, they needed the 15 years - actually, at that time it was 25 years. Today, it's much easier to assess players; ten years is fine.
   39. DanG Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4763850)
Omar is one of the top 5 shortstops in Indians' history! Maybe...
500+ G at SS:

Rk             Player WAR/pos WAA/pos OPSRfield   PA From   To  SB   BA  OBP  SLG
1        Lou Boudreau    61.6    41.9  122  115.0 6708 1938 1950  50 .296 .382 .416
2          Joe Sewell    45.6    21.1  111   
-6.0 6580 1920 1930  71 .320 .398 .425
3        Terry Turner    38.9    13.4   91  103.0 6511 1904 1918 254 .254 .310 .320
4        Omar Vizquel    30.0     7.8   90   30.8 6542 1994 2004 279 .283 .352 .379
5         Ray Chapman    29.1    11.7  111  
-26.0 4597 1912 1920 238 .278 .358 .377
6    Asdrubal Cabrera    20.8     7.3  105  
-10.0 3871 2007 2014  69 .270 .331 .410
7         Woodie Held    18.8     9.0  113   21.1 3227 1958 1964  10 .249 .339 .438
8        Julio Franco    17.2     2.4  103  
-49.3 4718 1983 1997 147 .297 .352 .400
9      Jhonny Peralta    15.4     1.8   99  
-20.0 3829 2003 2010   9 .264 .329 .422
10        Frank Duffy    11.4     1.7   70   53.3 2746 1972 1977  47 .233 .280 .313 
   40. flournoy Posted: August 04, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4763860)
Generally speaking, I wouldn't put up a statue of anyone who isn't either dead or really old.
   41. Booey Posted: August 04, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4763874)
Even then, we thought it was a golden era of talent and baseball.

Man, that turned ugly fast.


Yep. It blows my mind that so many people nowadays refer to one of the most exciting (and profitable) era's in baseball history as a black mark on the sport and something the league should try to wash its hands of and distance itself from as quickly and thoroughly as possible. Yes, all the current .240 hitters with 180 strikeouts and the 6 inning starters followed by an endless parade of interchangeable relievers is SO much better. We should all feel lucky that the memorable performances from the previous two decades are behind us and we can get back to enjoying mediocrity, the way baseball was meant to be played. It's just a matter of time before we start seeing the "Chicks dig the strikeout" commercials.

And yes, get off my lawn (though the above is sincere)
   42. The District Attorney Posted: August 04, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4763923)
A lot of Indians from the 1990s, led by Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez, chased the last dollar without saying their laundry would have to be shredded before it would be shed.
I'm tired of players like Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez being honest about the motivations behind their career decisions!

[Thome] was offered his name on the left field home run porch
I assume Thome responded by pointing out that that's not where he hit home runs.

The statue should have been of Omar Vizquel.
Oh Lord, this guy again.

All that said, nah, I would not give Thome a statue either. If you told me some team was building a Jim Thome statue, I would have to ask "which?"... that's a big strike against it, IMO. Cleveland would have been my first guess, but a close second would have been the White Sox, for whom he did after all both play for a few years, and join the front office immediately after retirement.

It's not crazy or anything, though. Guys don't always stay with one team, and Thome did put up the plurality of his value for Cleveland. If either Cincinnati or Baltimore had a Frank Robinson statue, I wouldn't really complain. I just don't think Thome is quite in the "someone oughta have a statue of this guy" class. But, y'know, he was really good of course, and it's a thing they can do to draw some fans and play up their own history. So, great!
   43. mex4173 Posted: August 04, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4763993)
Lou Boudreau in 1948 may have had the greatest combination of individual statistical and team achievement in the history of baseball.


Frank Chance led the '06 Cubs with 7.3 WaR. If the Cubs had won the WS, would their extra 19 regular season wins make up for Boudreau's 3.1 WaR lead?
   44. Ron J2 Posted: August 04, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4764044)
#43 You can make the case that Chances's handling of the pitching staff (radically gentle by the standards of the day) played a really big part in their record.

What's interesting is that he went to a conventional (by the day's standards) handling of Brown in the World Series and started Brown in Game 6 on 1 day's rest. But then he had used Pfeister for 3 innings and Overall for 4 in game 5.

In any case, on very short rest (1 day after a complete game shutout), Brown was terrible.

You can see the logic of going to Pfeister in relief in game 5. Series tied. Had struggled in the first (faced 7 batters, only given up 1 run) and then gave up back to back doubles to start the 3rd.

But Pfeister (also pitching on less rest than he normally got) was terrible. He didn't have any true relief pitchers of course, but in the regular season he'd have gone to the best available *fully rested* pitcher. IOW Overall rather than Pfeister.

No way of knowing how it would have played out with Overall coming in directly, and Pfeister starting game 6 on normal rest. But I find it interesting that Chance chose to abandon the strategy that produced such excellent results during the season.

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