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1. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: September 16, 2011 at 12:17 AM (#3926392)Well, there elder statesmen just go cut for an incident with a flight attendant, so the grownups don't seem to be helping.
If ever a team could use Buck Showalter, I think it's the Marlins.
Billy Martin would be ideal, except for the death thing.
Kenny Williams to manager, Rick Hahn to GM. Problems solved ... (maybe).
I don't know, I think the Blue Jays have some relievers left. That's the destination though, yes?
I think Shock's comment has less to do with Morrison's skill set and more with the club's penchant for bargain shopping for ballplayers who wear out their welcome at their previous stops.
Oops! Didn't pick up on that one.
A 745 OPS for the last four months from a corner OFer isn't going to let you keep a starting job.
Yeah skipping the meeting with the season ticket holders was real courageous. I guess I'll never understand why being kind of a prick is such a heroic quality to a segment of the population.
And as #18 suggests, he doesn't hit enough to be such an #######.
Because your sarcasm meter is malfunctioning.
If the Marlins end up hiring Ozzie Guillen, I'm hoping for something Swisher-ific to the Yankees :-)
He'd be a great 4th OF/part-time DH in 2012, and then could replace one of Granderson or Swisher thereafter.
the quote suggests the opposite to me.
You obviously haven't been following the situation. Nobody thinks they sent him down because of his performance. Morrison is showing that he is the kind of person who will risk his career over principle. He has nothing to gain from this and a lot to lose. That makes him a man of character and courage. The Marlins tried to make him their prison ##### and he's not going to take it. Not only do I applaud him but I am baffled that anyone could think he is in the wrong here.
Right -- they sent him down because he was a jackass teammate. He threw his own under the bus, skipped required events, etc. The Marlins didn't trash his reputation by publicly saying "You are going down because you are an asshat." Now your Champion of Justice is banging on his bongos like a chimp is a Mark Knopfler song.
They sent him down because he didn't show up for a team event that was supposed to be "optional." I'd be pissed too.
Except no one thinks this either. There hasn't been a single criticism of this kind. They released Wes Helms on the same day for his role in their insubordination. They sent him down because he didn't go to the meet and greet and because they (management) don't like him. Which is to say they sent him down for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the team. Which is an abuse of power.
It is interesting that the people on this site, who like to defend freedom so much, don't recognize an abuse of power when they see one.
They sent him down because he didn't show up for a team event that was supposed to be "optional." I'd be pissed too.
Welcome to life. Lots of things in the workplace are technically optional, but if you want to do a good job and build a good reputation you do them anyway. Unless of course you are union, then doing a good job and building a good reputation rank pretty low on the priority list.
It doesn't mean that. Even if his performance was bad enough to warrant the demotion, that was almost certainly not the reason he was demoted. It was a strong pretext, but still a pretext. I agree with Gaelan, he is being very brave for fighting this.
This obfuscates the situation through the use of a false analogy. The question is whether it is deliberate or not.
I'm sorry, but that's horeshit. If my boss asks me if I want to come to a meeting but don't have to, and I choose not to, he has no right to then "punish" me. And if he tries to he can go fuck himself.
Morrison was sent down, clearly, as a wake-up call about his overall attitude, not just due ot bailing on the meet/greet.
To reallyhave a good handle on it, one would actually have to be around Morrison. How one feels about it depends largely on one's view of labor/management issues.
Gaelan says it's a brave fight for a principle. The counter to that is the right to act like an ####### is not one worth fighting.
Honestly, I don't know. From the outside, the Marlins strike me as a truly dysfunctional team. They've run through three managers in the last 14 months (the last one quit and the current one seems ready to), their best player is a chronic pain in the ass, and they seem to be woefully underachieving (though maybe that changes if they don't lose Johnson earlier in the year).
I think it's possible that Logan Morrison is one of the few Marlins who gives a damn, and his lashing out is his way of trying to fix things. Maybe not the most effective way, but his heart is in the right place.
I find it equally plausible that Morrison is very much one of the problems, that he's just a mouthy jackass who looks around for everyone else to blame but himself.
Edit: Little cokes to Robin and Randy.
I don't know which one of those explanations is closer to being correct. I'm equally sure Gaelan (or anyone else here) doesn't either.
Based on what?
I'm not sure brave is the right word.
The Marlins have been pissed off at Morrison for a long tine because they tell him to shut up... and he doesn't.
Of course this is team opened/run by Loria/Sampson, so I'm routing for LoMo.
I assume he won't be a Marlin for much longer, I'd say there's a 50/50 chance his problems don't follow him- because he's not the real problem Marlins managment is- which means it's also 50/50 his problems follow him everywhere, because, well hes mouth running jackass
That was the culmination of a string of events of Morrison being a jackass. That being said, I didn't realize the union rep told him he could skip that meet and greet. The union rep, Helms, was released by the Marlins right after that. Plus, it isn't clear if this was optional --- Helms thought Morrison didn't have to go because an autograph signing earlier in the day ran late. Morrison was running his mouth about making a stand (he was also mad about a charity bowling tournament being canceled for lack of interest).
I am not sure about that --- I absolutely bleed union and think Morrison is a grandstanding jackass here.
Or you can have the ability to read context.
What he's doing isn't prudent. However, it's very lack of prudence is also indicative of its lack of selfishness. He is acting against his self-interest in a way that is clearly apparent to him. So the least that you can say about him is that he is being courageous.
The one legitimate question is to what principle is this courage serving? This is where the context comes in. From my reading of the facts the Marlins used their power to try and put him in his place and they did so in such a way as to single him out. So the principle being defended is that the capricious use of power is wrong. That seems to me like a principle worth defending.
The argument those who don't like Morrison are making is essentially that those with power get to use it however they like. Which is to say they get to define not only codes of behaviour but they also get to decide who fits into them and when/how they will be enforced. This seems to me like an evil principle. Perhaps you disagree.
So while there is a personal dimension to this (my personality is somewhat similar to Morrison's and I've gotten in trouble for it in the past) that doesn't mean the argument doesn't hold up. Abuses of power happen in the world. Most people accept them and carry on. Some people don't. Those who don't are courageous and deserve our praise.
Morrison will almost certainly be traded this offseason. I guess we will see whether his problems follow him.
Brave and stupid are not mutually exclusive.
Is it kind of like Jive?
A charity bowling tournament to raise money for cancer that his father had just died from that was cancelled for lack of interest because the Marlins didn't promote it. Look, sometimes players are selfish jackasses who think only about themselves. This obviously not the case. Morrison tries hard, cares about winning, and does things for other people. He's not Manny Ramirez, or Milton Bradley, or Elijah Dukes. He's the opposite of these guys. He just didn't do things on the Marlins terms and he was publicly punished for it.
I said at the time time that Morrison and the Marlins were done and that there was no way back from this. I was right then and I'm right now. The 50/50 proposition is whether the Marlins cut their losses and trade him or whether they try and reform/destroy him.
And that all hinges on your reading of things, a reading which undoubtedly does not include all of the pertinent information.
I think this is simplistic. The Marlins might very well see a guy who can become a good baseball player but at the moment is not (and no, he wasn't a very good baseball player for the two-plus months leading up to his demotion), and that his attitude and conduct are the primary impediments to him playing to his talent level. That a number of them have expressed this sentiment to him, in private, and it's clear that he has absolutely no intention of listening to them. And thus, having exhausted other options, they push him to the minors. That assessment and/or the resulting decision may be wrong, but I wouldn't call that evil.
Like I said, we really don't know because we simply don't have enough information about what's gone on in the Marlins clubhouse. Thus, picking one side of this out as the champion of all that is good and the other side as evil is off base.
I will grant that it does take couragte to fight the demotion.
Sure, there has. Plenty of his teammates told him he needed to tone it down, especially with the Twitter stuff. The dude was a dick all year, and it was wearing on more than just management. He never had a hard time turning down a chance to grandstand under the guise of championing for the wronged. This guy is not the defender of vitue you are making him out to be -- he is an immature, loud mouthed, selving serving kid.
>>>Which is to say they sent him down for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the team. Which is an abuse of power.<<<
Being a grandstanding dick offers reasons that affect the team.
I could be wrong about this, but weren't most of those things sort of on the side of being a good teammate? Defending a teammate who was being threatened by a GM, calling out the FO (maybe saying some of the stuff teammates were thinking, although not getting on the good side of the FO), and criticizing the team's best player for his very obvious lack of hustle. I guess there's a school of thought that says players shouldn't say anything to the press, but unless you think talking to the press about stuff is bad, it does seem like Morrison's heart is in the right place. I do wonder how much good he thinks being outspoken to the press is doing him, though.
He also criticized the team's best player for not being in the lineup. That guy just had shoulder surgery a couple of days ago. I can't imagine those comments had any positive effects on the team.
This is the crux of our disagreement (we are in agreement about standing up) -- I say he thinks the martyr routine is hip, but doesn't fully understand the cost, nor does have have any idea when to wisely pick and choose his battles. Guys who recklessly spill their blood on the beaches aren't remembered; they just end up dead, and their causes forgotten.
Just because one has rationalized the injustice one is committing as something that is in the best interest of the person receiving the injustice, doesn't make one less evil.
This is the same guy who while all of us were criticizing Sabean for being a bully towards Cousins was the only player on the Marlins to speak the truth. Sabean is a bully. We knew it, everyone knew it, but only Morrison had the courage to talk about it. Speaking the truth to power isn't being a loud mouth and it isn't self-serving. When he criticized the firing of the hitting coach he spoke up because he owed it to him. That isn't self-serving that is loyalty. Your read on him is insane. If Morrison is a bad guy for speaking his mind then no one should ever speak, ever. It sounds like you think baseball players should be automatons without culture or history.
Self-serving. Acting out against the meet and greet because you are mad about your self interests is the behavior of a child.
>>>Morrison tries hard, cares about winning, and does things for other people. He's not Manny Ramirez, or Milton Bradley, or Elijah Dukes.<<<
That is sort of unfair lumping of descriptors as Ramirez and Bradley certainly tried hard, cared about winning, and did things for other people. Those are also three different varieties of dicks. If you are saying that Morrison isn't a dick, then I disagree. If you are saying he isn't as big of dick as those guys turned out to be, I say A) give it time or B) Morrison will eventually mature.
Whatever his future, he has't earned the Man From La Mancha adoration you seem to think he deserves.
>>>I said at the time time that Morrison and the Marlins were done and that there was no way back from this.<<<
That wan't exactly going out on a limb, Nostradamus.
And just because you call something an injustice doesn't make it so. That's the crux of the dispute, it seems to me.
If the Marlins present their case intelligently, they will win.
-- MWE
Uh, didn't the Marlins call him back up and hasn't he been starting everyday since then (except for a few days when injured) and batting the middle of the lineup? He and the Marlins aren't "done" quite yet.
I know if I was an ML baseball player who gave a damn about winning and losing, I would probably be trying to run my way out of town if I had to play in front of <10,000 fans every home game.
That's unfathomable to me - and insulting to my team's fans and my teammates.
This is what I was thinking. Besides all of the off the field stuff, the day before they sent him to the minors he committed two costly errors in LF that allowed the Giants to win a close game. They don't even have to mention his hitting, all the Marlins really have to say is "he doesn't have much experience in LF and we wanted him to get some experience in without it costing us any more wins." Case closed.
The first time he says something that could stem from idiocy or a nobler motivation I can see the argument.
The second time it gets harder. The tenth time though and I'm struggling to see it. He never seems to cause a fuss when you can't say "yeah he could be doing that for the right reasons."
After this big a sample size, I just have trouble thinking that he just happens to coincidentally become a raving loud mouth only at times of some kind of injustice.
Shouldn't the post facto justification be consistent with what they do and say. They didn't say that at the time, he didn't work on his defense while he was there, and they called him up 10 days later. An arbitrator would have have to be completely stupid to believe that kind of explanation. Basically the Marlins ###### up. They didn't even pretend that he was sent down based on performance. They didn't tell Morrison why he was sent down. They didn't give him any instruction while he was there. And then they called him up after the minimum amount of time. In parenting language they gave him a timeout. Except, they aren't his parents and they don't have a right to treat him that way. Moreover, they are bad parents because they didn't explain why it was happening.
On the merits of the case in which an arbitrator is allowed to use his brain an assess the justification against the circumstances the Marlins have no chance of winning. Now it does sound like the burden of evidence for the MLB team is so low that any reason at all is accepted as a matter of course and so the Marlins will likely win. But that says more about the catch-22 nature of the process than it does about the intrinsic merits of the case.
But since they won't be honest and have a plausible baseball related reason for sending him out, Morrison rates to lose the grievance.
In the past arbitrators have been extremely reluctant to second-guess the operational side of the game. I can't think of a single successful grievance of this nature and I've been following the disciplinary side of the game since the 80s.
As Mike says upthread, if the Marlins present their case without being overtly stupid about it they're extremely likely to win. Particularly as the arbitrator must consider past rulings in making his decision.
Yes, how dare they option a player who's not hitting, struggling in the field and being a prick off it to AAA for 10 days. You're hilarious, no accountability from the individual just the man keeping him down. Somehow this has become America's standard operating practice.
I'm sorry, but that's horeshit. If my boss asks me if I want to come to a meeting but don't have to, and I choose not to, he has no right to then "punish" me. And if he tries to he can go #### himself.
Heh. The old low-side compliant mentality, sadly common these days, can't flush a guy like this out of my organization fast enough. Good luck with that.
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and Bads85's LoMO over here
I suspect in real life LoMo in somewhere in between, perhaps somewhat closer to Gaelen's version... but not enough to make Gaelen "right"
but it is interesting how Bads and Gaelen take the exact same incidents- and put 180degree opposite spin on them, it's like a political thread in miniature
What if they make "that" case, the case you would make, and the arbitrator says, "ok, that's reasonable Marlins, but I don't believe that is why you did this in this case"
The Marlins problem is this- there is one thing Judges and Arbitrators (well most of them) hate more than anything- if they think you are lying to THEM.
But there are comments on the record to the effect of -- I'm somewhat skeptical, but what they said is in fact plausible and I don't intend to second guess the operational side.
Think of the guys who were sent out to game service time. The arbitrators have to know what's up but have allowed it to stand.
Now since this is a disciplinary matter as opposed to a (commonly gamed) financial matter and arbitrators have been pretty clear that MLB (and teams) have to negotiate every aspect of player discipline ... well it's possible that the hearing could go against the Marlins.
But I'd be really surprised.
The Beinfest quote above, among other things.
Good point. Let me clarify what I meant: I agree with you to an extent that one's view of unions will in many cases play into one's hit on the LoMo saga. But in non-union contexts, you have bad bosses and good bosses, and company cultures, etc. People who see management as being the movers/shakers/winners/problem solvers and labor as replaceable cogs will tend to always take the "STFU, kiss management's ass, do your job and be glad you have it" road unless management is behaving in a blatantly illegal manner. But there are also many people who oppose unions in principle who also are willing to put some weight on management behavior in general.
Also, ML ballplayers, although they are labor, are, of course, very well-paid and are a very small, elite workforce. So this is not like a dispute involving a more typical union, and I am sure there are many unionized and blue-collar baseball fans who think Morrison should STFU.
But, as SoSH says, there is really no way to know about this unless one is actually around Morrison and FLA management a lot. Even media people with inside dope on the team are at the mercy of their (biased) sources.
What the hell are you talking about?
Employment is a partnership. Nothing more, nothing less.
All workers.
I'm not seeing how there was any conceivable injustice here, under the letter of the CBA. There may or may not be an ethical argument, but that's irrelevant.
This would actually mean something if they did the same thing to Hanley Ramirez, instead of letting him do what he wants, and firing the manager who tried to call him out on it.
It's really not a union at all in the traditional sense. The MLBPA is much closer to an old-school artisans guild than it is to organized labor.
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