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Sunday, April 15, 2012

Loverro: No way to rationalize voting steroid users in Hall of Fame

I believe it was Bruce Chen Shui-bian that said…“BBWAA members shake fists before reconciliation and rational talks.”

It’s awfully big of Major League Baseball union boss Michael Weiner to declare that steroid users should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, considering the organization he runs, the Players Association, was the biggest culprit in the scandal that damaged the game.

“It’s a museum,” Weiner told the crowd last week at the National Press Club. “If you want to have some notation on their plaque that indicates that they were either judged to have used performance-enhancing substances or accused of having done that, so be it.”

OK, here’s a notation: “We would have stuck syringes in our eyes before we would have let baseball have tough drug testing of our members, and it was only when we were dragged before Congress and humiliated, and our members fearing prosecution, did we finally relent and go along with a worthy testing program. Otherwise, A-Rod would have about 700 career home runs by now.”

How’s that for a notation?

...Michael Weiner, like Andy Pettitte, “misremembers” the role his union played in the steroid scandal. We’ll all get a reminder this week in a Washington courtroom.

Repoz Posted: April 15, 2012 at 01:28 AM | 111 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, steroids

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   101. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4108784)

I think team-sanctioned performance enhancement (or enabling) is a fair line to draw.


I think that's fair. I just don't think there's a lot of anti-steroids people who would draw the line in the same place. With McGwire and Bonds, there wasn't a lot of "OMG, they're taking something surreptitiously!" It was, "OMG, they're making a mockery of the game!"
   102. Fanshawe Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4108826)
It's horrible that amps were put out for players to use, but because they were, it required less affirmative action on behalf of the player to acquire amps than steroids.


Where does getting a great new supplement from your personal trainer fall on that scale?
   103. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4108838)


I think that's fair. I just don't think there's a lot of anti-steroids people who would draw the line in the same place. With McGwire and Bonds, there wasn't a lot of "OMG, they're taking something surreptitiously!" It was, "OMG, they're making a mockery of the game!"


Totally fair. I do think that at least some of the outrage was because of the surreptitious use of illegal substances thought to be superdrugs (the average fan sometimes forgets that you have to put the work in to get the most out of steroids.) Frankly, I think there was also a racial component to the outrage, and that has to be accounted for. I remember people being much quicker to accept McGwire's andro explanation than Barry's creatine explanation, though that could be shaded by McGwire's pre-Caminiti retirement. WRT the chase for the all-time record, Bonds' public image is a bit like a modern Jack Johnson, whereas Hank Aaron's image is something like baseball's Joe Louis. I don't mean to say there was outright racism, per se, but I think we'd be foolish to ignore that component.

@ Fanshawe:

Where does getting a great new supplement from your personal trainer fall on that scale?


Is it MLB approved? At least nowadays, there is sufficient awareness amongst players that they should check and see. Pre-03 (or whenever it was that MLB began publishing approved supplements), it's a gray zone and I'd be more willing to buy the explanation for record keeping purposes, even if I'm very skeptical.
   104. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4108858)
It was, "OMG, they're making a mockery of the game!"

I don't know about the "game," but Bonds did make a mockery of the record books. His homerun total is, really, a joke that no one but the most literal-minded should take seriously.

That isn't a "moral" wrong, but I'm not sure when that became the relevant measuring stick. It is, in the context of the sport's history and the attention paid by analysts and fans to the numbers it churns out, an ethical wrong.
   105. Chip Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4108866)
Sorry, I missed your point then. The biggest difference between amps and steroids, from the perspective of a clean player not wanting to use an illegal substance that is potentially harmful*, is that your team was explicitly promoting use of amphetamine and making it available to you. Teams did not have jars full of deca and d-bol in the clubhouse. A player could have likely thought he was taking on greater risk by seeking steroids (ex. from a clubbie) than he was by seeking amps (by pouring a cup of coffee.)


Seizing on the difference in drug delivery methods as indicative of a fundamental difference between one type of PED and another is a mistake constantly made by amps apologists.By this rationale the cream and the clear, since they're as easily administered as a greenie, must not carry the same risk, physical or ethical, as a syringe full of deca.
   106. Fanshawe Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4108878)
I don't know about the "game," but Bonds did make a mockery of the record books. His homerun total is, really, a joke that no one but the most literal-minded should take seriously.


I'm sympathetic to the idea that steroids could be banned because of significant health risks. I'm less sympathetic to the idea that the enhancement a player receives from steroids is "too much" relative to other legal (or in the case of amps, illegal but who cares I guess) forms of chemical or medical enhancement. It certainly could be true that steroids "work better" than coritzone, for example, but it's hard for me to see why I should care. Aside from the potential heath risks of course, but the it-makes-a-mockery-of-the-record-book arguments rarely concern themselves with heath risks.

*Edit* I'm talking about in the pre-testing phase. If a player uses now and gets caught, he broke a rule and he can deal with the punshiment. I think MLB's steroid punishments are rather arbitrary, but lots of companies have silly disciplinary policies.
   107. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 17, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4108883)
For the clean players, was not using steroids an issue of not wanting to cheat? Or just not wanting to use something that was illegal/harmful?
   108. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: April 17, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4108993)


Seizing on the difference in drug delivery methods as indicative of a fundamental difference between one type of PED and another is a mistake constantly made by amps apologists.By this rationale the cream and the clear, since they're as easily administered as a greenie, must not carry the same risk, physical or ethical, as a syringe full of deca.


Again. I guess I'm just not clear enough: I'm not just discussing how the drug is ingested. I'm discussing the institutional (i.e. MLB club) promotion of one form of PEDs (amps prominently displayed & furnished by team in clubhouse) vs. another (steroids, not prominently displayed nor furnished by the team.) That's a really big, important difference. A player will likely, at minimum, feel like he is incurring less legal risk if the drug is furnished by his employer.

Also, yes, I bet at least some players figured greenies were less harmful because they'd a) been around since WWII, b) were furnished by their employers, and c) do not have the same stigma as steroids.


For the clean players, was not using steroids an issue of not wanting to cheat? Or just not wanting to use something that was illegal/harmful?


Probably a little of hand A, a little of hand B. It's hard to generalize, no? We do know in the environment of the Steroid Era, none of these things proved to be enough of a disincentive for the majority of players.
   109. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 17, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4109021)
That's very, very different than Mitchell-approved, widely reported depiction of steroid use as widespread, but still not institutionally promoted (with the exception of Rocker's depiction of the 2000ish Braves.) There is the difference in moral culpability: both are PEDs, but one is being institutionally promoted and is used virtually universally, whereas the other is simply left untouched to fester and grow.

There is no steroid equivalent in terms of explicit, team-sanctioned promotion. None.

A distinction without difference. Reds trainer Larry Starr was among the medical team that personally told commissioner Bud Selig, top union officlals and MLB brass all about rampant steroid use in 1988. The Dodgers front office overtly made a roster decision in 2003 based on Paul LoDuca going off steroids. In 2001, the Yankees explicitly agreed to strike penalty language that would have allowed them to void Jason Giambi's contract for steroid use. The Red Sox and Rangers were reported to have conducted "how to properly use steroids" spring training seminars for their players in 2002.

Teams were advising, protecting, negotiating, ignoring, and strategizing based on their internal steroid data. The premise that they somehow stood at a moral remove from a culture they did not promote or influence is ludicrous.

However, the phrase "Mitchell-approved depiction" is apt. Neither Larry Starr's documented history of warnings, which directly implicated Selig & Co., nor his four separate meetings with Mitchell's investigators made the Report's final draft. That would have required a 410th page.
   110. zenbitz Posted: April 17, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4109031)
SBB trolls...
I don't know about the "game," but <strike>Bonds</strike>Ruth did make a mockery of the record books. His homerun total is, really, a joke that no one but the most literal-minded should take seriously.


Roger Connor is the the TRUE all-time HR champ!
   111. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 18, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4109946)
Just noticed this from the rules history section of the Hall of Fame website:

Character, Integrity and Sportsmanship: Implemented in 1945. Rule applies to how the game was played on the field, more so than character off the field.


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