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Wednesday, December 25, 2013

Lucchino looks back on failed A-Rod trade

“The forces of good and evil battling eternally!”

“It was as vivid a reminder as one could have about the old cliche: The best trades are often the ones that never happen,” said Lucchino. “It was also a bit of a reminder of the power and influence of the Players Association. I can’t say how it would have influenced our operating practices going forward. It would be purely hypothetical. I’m not going to try. All I can say is we wanted to win, we were in it to win it, and we wanted to win it right then. We didn’t want a long period of time to pass. Having won three in 10 years, we feel a sense of satisfaction and pride in what has developed in place of an A-Rod-led Red Sox.”

The trade not only would have brought Rodriguez to Boston in exchange for outfielder Manny Ramirez and then-Single-A pitcher Jon Lester, but it also would have set in motion another move dealing Nomar Garciaparra to the White Sox for outfielder Magglio Ordonez (to replace Ramirez) and right-hander Brandon McCarthy. The implications for the Red Sox’ run of three championships in the past 10 seasons would have been considerable, encompassing not just those six principal players but also potentially such other notables as Edgar Renteria, Josh Beckett and Jacoby Ellsbury.

Repoz Posted: December 25, 2013 at 07:12 AM | 47 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, yankees

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. TerpNats Posted: December 25, 2013 at 09:01 AM (#4623792)
More smugness from the loathsome Lucchino.
   2. Publius Publicola Posted: December 25, 2013 at 10:32 AM (#4623800)

Yes, but smugness directed at the Yankees is always welcome.
   3. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 25, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4623811)
It's true, if you can't be smug towards your betters the terrorists win.
   4. KT's Pot Arb Posted: December 25, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4623815)
“It was as vivid a reminder as one could have about the old cliche: The best trades are often the ones that never happen,”


Yea, paying $79m for 14.1 WAR from that unhappy POS Manny was way better than paying A-Rod $76m for 30.8 WAR. Nice revisionism from the King of smug.

The article ignores defense and team chemistry, which made the trade would have been huge win for Sox, regardless of Lester vs. McCarthy.
   5. KT's Pot Arb Posted: December 25, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4623816)
And imagine how much more valuable A-Rod is if kept at shortstop, and how many HR and extra base hits he has in Fenway.
   6. Publius Publicola Posted: December 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM (#4623817)
It's true, if you can't be smug towards your betters the terrorists win.


You did take notice of the outcome of this year's playoffs, didn't you? Or do you content yourself with watching "Safe at Home! (1962) on Netflix, and pine for the good old days in your mom's basement?
   7. Publius Publicola Posted: December 25, 2013 at 11:49 AM (#4623818)
The article ignores defense and team chemistry, which made the trade would have been huge win for Sox, regardless of Lester vs. McCarthy.


??????????? I can't imaagine a player who provides less chemistry than A-Rod. In fact, A-Rod is like team chemistry anti-matter.
   8. KT's Pot Arb Posted: December 25, 2013 at 11:59 AM (#4623819)
??????????? I can't imaagine a player who provides less chemistry than A-Rod. In fact, A-Rod is like team chemistry anti-matter.


If he's antimatter, what is the guy who assaulted the team secretary, and quit on his team?

We are talking relative value, and the gap in good chemistry between A-Rod and Manny is not that far from the defensive value gap between a gold glove short-stop and a statuesque left fielder with the fumbles who made most plays like he just stumbled out of the Green Monster's portapotty.
   9. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 25, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4623825)
You did take notice of the outcome of this year's playoffs, didn't you?


Yes, Lucchino proved that you really can toady your way to the top. I bet Bud sends him a Christmas ham.
   10. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: December 25, 2013 at 12:46 PM (#4623826)
Jesus, guys, it's Christmas.
   11. dejarouehg Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4623829)
The article is just a reminder that a) it's nice to have a break from the endless posts about HoF voting justification and the inevitable, "well, at least he's not voting for Morris," or, "not a bad ballot, other than his vote for Morris" b) The Red Sox accomplishments so far this century are fairly impressive, c) Lucchino is about as likable as Randy Levine, and d) what a shmuck Hank Steinbrenner is.

Merry Christmas to all of you who celebrate.
   12. KronicFatigue Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4623831)
don't forget that A-Rod's steroid use gets dismissed as some eye drops and he continues to put up MVP type numbers for years and years.

/ChristmasTroll
   13. Dale Sams Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:30 PM (#4623835)
Jesus, guys, it's Christmas


Of course it is, and Yankee-Red Sox fan rumble at this point in history is the best present ever.

My two cents: Now throw in Manny's playoff stats vs ARod's.

Yanks traded Soriano, Sox would have traded a first ballot HOFer and a lefty with a 117 ERA+ and has made 30+ starts for the last six years?? Not to mention HIS 11 postseason starts with around a 2.00 ERA.

Yeah.
   14. TerpNats Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4623842)
Of course it is, and Yankee-Red Sox fan rumble at this point in history is the best present ever.
A better present for the rest of us would be knocking their heads together.
   15. haggard Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4623843)
Yea, paying $79m for 14.1 WAR from that unhappy POS Manny was way better than paying A-Rod $76m for 30.8 WAR. Nice revisionism from the King of smug.

What he says in the article is that they while they were unable to get Dor-A, as they very much wanted to do, things have worked out really well. What is smug about that? Just as a matter of chance, its unlikely that if they had been able to go through with the deal they would have won 3 World Series since.
   16. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 25, 2013 at 01:55 PM (#4623844)
More smugness from the loathsome Lucchino.


Maybe I'm just a big softie here, but this retrospective was clearly the reporter's idea (and a good one at that). What was Lucky supposed to say?
   17. Best Regards, President of Comfort Posted: December 25, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4623848)
Maybe I'm just a big softie here, but this retrospective was clearly the reporter's idea (and a good one at that). What was Lucky supposed to say?
"No, thanks."
   18. KT's Pot Arb Posted: December 25, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4623850)
What he says in the article is that they while they were unable to get Dor-A, as they very much wanted to do, things have worked out really well. What is smug about that? Just as a matter of chance, its unlikely that if they had been able to go through with the deal they would have won 3 World Series since


If you said that, I would say well said, sir.

But Luccino said that while slipping in the silly comment that the best trades are the ones not made. So I can ignore his general comments that contradict the silly comment and use it as a platform to remind the world that Larry Luccino is one third of the greatest evil baseball has ever been forced to endured, the Luccino-Selig-Levine triumvirate of smug incompetence.
   19. Hank G. Posted: December 25, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4623856)
Just as a matter of chance, its unlikely that if they had been able to go through with the deal they would have won 3 World Series since.


More like 4 or 5.
   20. puck Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4623859)
And imagine how much more valuable A-Rod is if kept at shortstop

That would have been interesting. I suppose he would have opted out again in this parallel universe after the 2007 season and signed with the Yankees. Then there'd be all the hit pieces in the Boston press. So, probably another 4 years at short.
   21. TerpNats Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4623860)
How about an alternate alternate universe where the Rangers say, "To hell with it, let's trade him to the National League."
   22. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:18 PM (#4623861)
In a weird hypothetical scenario, would I trade the 3 guaranteed WS wins for possibly getting more? Nah. But it's certainly possible that the Red Sox could have won more with ARod.
   23. booond Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4623869)
In a weird hypothetical scenario, would I trade the 3 guaranteed WS wins for possibly getting more? Nah. But it's certainly possible that the Red Sox could have won more with ARod.


There is a law of diminishing value with WS wins. I wouldn't trade the first one for getting A-Rod and a chance at 4 or 5.
   24. booond Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4623870)
Double
   25. KT's Pot Arb Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4623873)
That would have been interesting. I suppose he would have opted out again in this parallel universe after the 2007 season and signed with the Yankees. Then there'd be all the hit pieces in the Boston press. So, probably another 4 years at short.


Would have been a Boston fan's wet dream. Boston gets 4 years that are among the best all time for a short-stop for only $19M a year, plus a Yankees first rounder, and the Yankees get stuck with a $250M albatross contract.
   26. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: December 25, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4623874)
Merry Christmas!

#23, bird in the hand and all that...

Fun to hypothesise, but 3 titles in 10 years will do me just fine. If that sounds a little smug, well 86 years is a long effing time to wait for success(or in my case about 40 years of fandom).

   27. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 25, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4623883)
But it's certainly possible that the Red Sox could have won more with ARod.


It's possible, but not likely. Taking the big prize in the crapshoot is quite difficult, and two in the four years between the potential deal and the opt-out date (or five years between the potential deal and the Manny trade) are more than one would expect, regardless whether a team has a better overall collection of talent at its disposal.



   28. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 25, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4623884)
In a weird hypothetical scenario, would I trade the 3 guaranteed WS wins for possibly getting more? Nah. But it's certainly possible that the Red Sox could have won more with ARod.


...or that they win none. Who's to say ARod doesn't lay a big fat egg in the postseason? It's not like he hasn't had some really lame ones. Manny B Manny went
.349/.463/.566 in the 2004/2007 PS. Lester has been an absolute stud in the 2007/2013 PS. Winning 3 WS in a ten year span is about as good it gets for any franchise, especially in today's multi-faceted postseason setup. So many things have to align just right and who's to say that the lynchpin for Bostons success was NOT making that trade?
Although in his defense, he did carry the Yankees in the 2009 PS.
   29. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 25, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4623885)
In a weird hypothetical scenario, would I trade the 3 guaranteed WS wins for possibly getting more? Nah. But it's certainly possible that the Red Sox could have won more with ARod.


Regardless of how good the Red Sox might have been with ARod/Magglio instead of Manny/Nomar, the reality is that virtually nobody has done better than three titles in a decade since the Yankee Dynasty of 1921-1964 collapsed. The Yankees won four in five years between 1996 and 2000. The A's won three in a row in the 1970s. Several teams had very good runs - Dodgers from 1974-1981 got to the World Series four times, but only once. The Yankees of 1976-1981 got to four WS, but won only two. The Canseco/McGwire A's got to three in a row, but only won one. The current Cardinals run have been to four in the last ten years, but only won two. And, of course, the Braves of the 1990s went to the playoffs every year, and five WS between 1991 and 1999...but only won once.

As a Red Sox fan - I'll take three in a decade (with two other Game 7 ALCS nail-biting losses in 2003 and 2008), and appreciate how wonderful it has been.
   30. tfbg9 Posted: December 25, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4623886)
Being on the good end of the infamous Slappy McBluelips play has a lot of sentimental value as well.

Merry Christmas everybody.
   31. PreservedFish Posted: December 25, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4623887)
There is something fundamentally uninteresting about this type of analysis. The Red Sox were lucky to win as much as they did, so you don't want to change anything. I can't argue with that. But the same thing is true even if in the alternate universe The Sox had the chance to sign ARod for $0 per year, or if they could trade some scrubs for Roy Halladay & Albert Pujols.
   32. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 25, 2013 at 04:47 PM (#4623888)
There is something fundamentally uninteresting about this type of analysis.


There's something fundamentally uninteresting, and fundamentally impossible, about any type of "What if" analysis.

   33. Publius Publicola Posted: December 25, 2013 at 06:58 PM (#4623919)
In another "what goes around, comes around" belated revenge, what could have been better than Pedro throwing zip head Zimmerman to the ground while wearing a Yankee uniform, as vindication for his throwing up all over 1978?
   34. John Northey Posted: December 25, 2013 at 07:09 PM (#4623922)
Still, it would've been funny to see A-Rod play in Boston until he opt'ed out, then goes to NY for $275 million and they have the mess that his final deal has been.
   35. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: December 25, 2013 at 07:12 PM (#4623923)
what could have been better than Pedro throwing zip head Zimmerman


You forgot the comma again, hippie.
   36. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 25, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4623924)
Still, it would've been funny to see A-Rod play in Boston until he opt'ed out, then goes to NY for $275 million and they have the mess that his final deal has been.


In a land of unknowable counterfactuals, here's another one: If Rod doesn't have a long history with the Yankees, do they sign him?
   37. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 25, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4623926)
Also, I believe he accused Don Zimmer of the murder of Trayvon Martin.
   38. ptodd Posted: December 25, 2013 at 08:06 PM (#4623936)
Red Sox have had a lot of luck really. Arod thanks to the MLBPA, Jose Contreras and Tex thanks to the Yankees, and of course Magic Johnsons Dodgers bailing them out on Agon, Crawford and Beckett.

Been a Jekyll & Hyde decade for the Red Sox. 3 World Series appearances all ending up with a ring. But then you had years like 2006, 2010-2012 and a stretch of almost 5 years without a playoff win (Oct 2008-Oct 2013).
   39. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 25, 2013 at 08:24 PM (#4623942)
a stretch of almost 5 years without a playoff win (Oct 2008-Oct 2013).


That's kind of like saying the 1998-99 Yankees went almost a full year without winning a World Series.
   40. tfbg9 Posted: December 25, 2013 at 09:01 PM (#4623948)
I will take the 3 we already have. Especially 2004, with its Greatest Comeback in Sports History® at the expense of the NYY's, thank you very much.
   41. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 25, 2013 at 09:05 PM (#4623949)
I've never figured out why this is, but some ludicrous number of NHL teams win 7-game series after being down 0-3. Why is such a lead less safe in that sport?
   42. tfbg9 Posted: December 25, 2013 at 09:28 PM (#4623954)
3 times in 172 chances in hockey. Because hockey is a meathead sport.
   43. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 25, 2013 at 09:55 PM (#4623956)
Been a Jekyll & Hyde decade for the Red Sox. 3 World Series appearances all ending up with a ring. But then you had years like 2006, 2010-2012 and a stretch of almost 5 years without a playoff win (Oct 2008-Oct 2013).


2006 - 86 wins
2010 - 89 wins
2011 - 90 wins

2012 was a shitshow but 2006, 2010 and 2011 are pretty good "bad years."

I've never figured out why this is, but some ludicrous number of NHL teams win 7-game series after being down 0-3. Why is such a lead less safe in that sport?


As noted it is not something that has happened that much. The reason I think it feels more feasible is the goalie issue. Basically an NHL team starts their Ace starting pitcher every game so even if you get a 3-0 lead on a Greg Maddux or Randy Johnson the potential to see that turned around just "feels" more possible.
   44. PreservedFish Posted: December 25, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4623960)
Been a Jekyll & Hyde decade for the Red Sox. 3 World Series appearances all ending up with a ring. But then you had years like 2006, 2010-2012 and a stretch of almost 5 years without a playoff win (Oct 2008-Oct 2013).


Yeah, this comment is hilarious. Jekyll & Hyde? It's a dynasty with one roadbump (2012).
   45. Nasty Nate Posted: December 26, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4624170)
If the Sox had the time machine option to go back and make the A-Rod trade, there is absolute zero chance they would take the option, given how the past decade has unfolded in this reality. Absolute zero. It is a fact, no debate. Post #4 looks like the one of the strawmen created by anti-stats writers in their columns.

   46. OCD SS Posted: December 27, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4624652)
Looking at the "what if" scenarios, does it make sense to consider that for ARod to wind up on the Sox, the Player's Union would've had to allow the contract modification of the opt-out clause, which would have left him playing for the Sox with no opt-out, and then hitting FA a few years later...

Interesting that at the time the rationale for that was that there was no way he would opt out as no one would pay him more for those years; the union bucked conventional wisdom at the time, and that decision at least looks good for getting the player more money...
   47. tfbg9 Posted: December 27, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4624748)
If the Sox had the time machine option to go back and make the A-Rod trade, there is absolute zero chance they would take the option, given how the past decade has unfolded in this reality. Absolute zero. It is a fact, no debate. Post #4 looks like the one of the strawmen created by anti-stats writers in their columns.


Amen, brother. And again, I wouldn't trade multiple, multiple rings, as a Red Sox fan, for 2004's. Its, its, *slober-slobber, drool-drool*...its...

"My Precious."

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