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Sunday, April 08, 2012

Lupica: Alex Rodriguez hits fork in the road of his pinstriped career

Somehow, a sportswriter named Mike Lupica still is.

Now it is the season when he turns 37, and Rodriguez is coming off a season when he only played 99 games because of injuries, only hit 16 home runs. It is the season when Rodriguez will look like one of the most dangerous hitters in the game again, the kind of hitter who hit 54 home runs and knocked in 156 five years ago, or will just continue to look like the worst contract in the history of the Yankees, in all of baseball, at least until Albert Pujols starts to break down in Anaheim.

He has had amazing seasons here. He has made all kinds of news, good and bad and occasionally ridiculous. Once, Dave Winfield, another great player, though not one in A-Rod’s class, came here making huge money. He joined Reggie Jackson as a star Yankee the way Rodriguez joined Derek Jeter and the rest of them. Only Winfield never won here, and became the big poster child for the Yankees not winning it all in the 1980s, especially after he could produce just one base hit in his one World Series, in 1981 against the Dodgers.

...Somehow he is a Yankee for nearly a decade. Somehow he is about to turn 37, trying to look like a great Yankee again instead of just a bad contract that seems to go forever. The Yankees thought they were getting a young Mickey Mantle when they got him in 2004. They want him to be more than the old one in 2012.

They want to be talking about his numbers on the field when this season is over, not the nearly $300 million contract extension the Yankees gave him after the 2007 season. Yankee fans? They just want to be talking about at least one more ride through the Canyon of Heroes for A-Rod, not asking what idiot actually signed off on signing him through 2017.

Repoz Posted: April 08, 2012 at 08:55 AM | 87 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, yankees

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   1. Gonna break my Rusty Kuntz and run . . . Arbitol Posted: April 08, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4100260)
Is it 6 seasons left on the deal? I was going to say that it has a chance not to be the "worst in Yankees history" but I can't think of too many big Yankee blunders. Pavano obviously; maybe R. Johnson (especially instead of Beltran), but neither of those were exactly apocalyptic for the team. I don't think anyone would say the Winfield deal is a contender.
   2. MC Skat Kat, Weltmeister in Schach Und Boxen Posted: April 08, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4100268)
Paying Tony Womack a single red cent was a catastrophe.
   3. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4100275)
Paying Tony Womack a single red cent was a catastrophe.
Although it led to getting Cano up, so that wasn't all bad.
   4. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4100277)
Just remember what Yogi said. "If you come to a fork in the road, take it."
   5. Downtown Bookie Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4100279)
...or will just continue to look like the worst contract in the history of the Yankees, in all of baseball....


Brien Taylor gets my vote for worst contract in history of the Yankees.

In all of baseball? Gimmie a minute.

DB
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4100280)
In all of baseball? Gimmie a minute.


Mathews Jr. Doesn't take a minute. Worse contract in history at the time of it's signing and it turned out exactly like people thought it would.
   7. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4100281)
The Vernon Wells deal was putrid.

Baseball inflation waters the numbers down a bit, but the Mike Hampton/Rockies deal was a real loser.

Also, the Pavano deal was orders of magnitude worse than the Brien Taylor deal.
   8. Squash Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4100283)
Mathews Jr. Doesn't take a minute. Worse contract in history at the time of it's signing and it turned out exactly like people thought it would.

Yeah but he made a great catch!
   9. Downtown Bookie Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4100289)
Also, the Pavano deal was orders of magnitude worse than the Brien Taylor deal.


Could be. Kei Igawa's contract certainly deserves consideration as well.

The contract that I was trying to remember as worst all-time was Wayne Garland getting a ten-year deal from the Indians after the 1976 season. But I couldn't remember his name; so I turned to Google. Searching under "baseball free agent bust pitcher 1970s" did not give me Wayne Garland. It did, however, give me Tom Seaver.

Google can give some very strange results at times.

DB
   10. puck Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4100291)
Hard to beat that Hampton deal. Are there bonus points for the Denny Neagle deal being done at the same time?

Darren Dreifort's deal must be up there as well.
   11. puck Posted: April 08, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4100292)
Baseball inflation waters the numbers down a bit


Yeah, I wonder how deals from the late 70's or the 80's compare. BB-ref has Ed Whitson making $800,000, which doesn't seem like much. But he was horrible.
   12. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: April 08, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4100301)
Another turning point, a fork stuck in the road
Time grabs you by the wrist, directs you where to go
So make the best of this test, and don't ask why
It's not a question, but a lesson learned in time
   13. TomH Posted: April 08, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4100352)
For those who have databases; what is Alex' WAR or win shares or TRAA with the Yankees (2004-2011), along with his total salary for those years? And what is Jeter's for the same period? Whose contract was better or worse by objective standards?
   14. yo la tengo Posted: April 08, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4100367)
Chan Ho Park's Ranger contract is comparable to the other pitcher busts. Of course, the fact that A-Rod's contract does nothing to slow down any other spending the Yankees want to do diminishes the awfulness of the deal. If most other teams issued such a putrid deal it would hamstring them for years
   15. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: April 08, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4100368)
For those who have databases; what is Alex' WAR or win shares or TRAA with the Yankees (2004-2011), along with his total salary for those years? And what is Jeter's for the same period? Whose contract was better or worse by objective standards?


Don't need database for that. BBREF has it.

A Rod - 43.6 WAR $218 Mil

Jeter - 32.8, $161 Mil
   16. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: April 08, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4100370)
For those who have databases; what is Alex' WAR or win shares or TRAA with the Yankees (2004-2011), along with his total salary for those years? And what is Jeter's for the same period? Whose contract was better or worse by objective standards?

Per BRed:

Jeter: 32.8 WAR; 161m; 4.91m/WAR
ARod: 43.6 WAR; 218m; 5m/WAR

Edit: coke, bla bla bla
   17. YR Misses Reggie Bars Posted: April 08, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4100382)
Also, the Pavano deal was orders of magnitude worse than the Brien Taylor deal.

Could be. Kei Igawa's contract certainly deserves consideration as well.


Igawa has to be the worst Yankee contract in history. All that money spent for a guy who just had zero upside.
   18. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4100383)
I think we're playing "what have you done for me lately" a bit too much.

It hasn't been pretty recently, but he won two MVPs for the Yankees. When healthy, he has hit in the extreme middle of the order (3rd or 4th) virtually every day. He is a World Series champion, and will be an inner-circle HoFer.

Yes, they've paid him a zillion dollars to do it and it will likely get worse before it gets better. But I just philosophically don't think that overpaying a great, great player could ever be the worst deal in history.
   19. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4100414)
The Vernon Wells deal was putrid.


No, it wasn't.

It turned out that way, but at the time he was basically the same player as Torii Hunter and got the same contract as Torii Hunter. Without hindsight, they are either both putrid or both fair. Torii's deal turned out OK, Vernon's didn't. That's baseball.
   20. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4100422)
I think it's completely irresponsible to sign a non-top-tier hitter to a 7-year deal.

Wells got 7 years at $126 million (according to Cot's) and one year later, Hunter got 5 years at $90. I don't think they're the same contract.
   21. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4100425)
Wells is two years younger. It was the same AAV to the same age. And a gold-glove center-fielder witha 125 OPS+ is a top-tier player.

Two things happened that made it a bad deal:

1) Wells followed it by having his worst season ever in 2007, and missing half of 2008.
2) The market went way down, making his contract look higher than it seemed at the time.

Neither of these things were foreseen by anyone. If Wells had continued to put up OPS+'s in the 110-130 range and the market continued to go up every year as it had been, nobody would question the deal, even now.

Vernon was signed after his age-27 season, having put up a 118 OPS+ in the past four years while winning a gold glove in CF every year. He was signed for an average of 18M/year, through his age 35 season.

Torii was signed after his age-31 season, having put up a 112 OPS+ in the past four years while winning a gold glove in CF every year. He was signed for an average of 18M/year, through his age 36 season.

Without knowledge of the future, which of these players would you rather have, the player with the higher OPS+ (and the same components, they are mirror-image hitter-types,) signed for his age 29-35 seasons, or the worse player, signed through his age 32-36 players for the same AAV? It's a no brainer!

As it turns out, Torii stayed consistent while Vernon fell into a snakepit. That #### happens; it will always happen, and no one will ever be able to see it coming. But it was nothing close to an indefensible contract at the time.
   22. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4100446)
Can you name any 7-year deal in the history of the game that worked for the team and for the player?
   23. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4100449)
Well, I think all 7 year deals work for the player.

Tulo's original 7 year contract will have a hard time not working out for the Rockies.
   24. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4100451)
And a gold-glove center-fielder witha 125 OPS+ is a top-tier player.

Agreed. And if Vernon Wells had been a gold glove calibre center-fielder, with an OPS+ of 125 the contract would have been entirely reasonable. But he was a 108 OPS+ player, with crap defense.
   25. yo la tengo Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4100455)
Didn't the Mets give Piazza a 7 year deal? That worked out reasonably well for them.
   26. deputydrew Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4100460)
Can you name any 7-year deal in the history of the game that worked for the team and for the player?


As is the answer to most questions - Barry Bonds (1993 7 years/$42 million, IIRC). (or maybe it was 6/42?)
   27. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4100461)
Well, I think all 7 year deals work for the player


I think Evan Longoria might have some regret for dollars left on the table, but generally I completely agree.
   28. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4100462)
I believe Barry re-upped. I don't think he signed for seven years when he was a FA.

   29. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4100468)
Barry had a 6 year deal with the Giants in 1993 but I doubt a 7 year would have caused Barry to tank and the Giants to regret signing him.
   30. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4100470)
Agreed. And if Vernon Wells had been a gold glove calibre center-fielder, with an OPS+ of 125 the contract would have been entirely reasonable. But he was a 108 OPS+ player, with crap defense.


That's nonsense.

Total nonsense. He was 27 years old, had a OPS+ of 118 the prior four years, with 129 in his most recent season. His ZiPS for 2007 was .285/.344/.501, and a 125 OPS+ would not have been close to shocking. His defense may have been over-rated, but it was nothing close to "crap." One year (forget which) he had the best zone-rating in CF while leading in outfield assists and not making a single error. Advanced defensive metrics for outfielders are very, very spotty. None of them take into account positioning or hang-time. Vernon was making high-light reel catches every week.

Only with the gift of hind-sight is it easy to dismiss Vernon as a garbage player. After the 2006 season he looked every bit the star that Curtis Granderson does now.

This was Dan's comment on the signing:

This contract comes in at a hefty $126 million. Is Wells overpaid at this price? Certainly - in his off-years, he’s a really good player, not a great one. But this is the type of player you overpay, a player that you can’t easily develop on the farm.


Vernon Wells was a very good hitter, playing a premium position, and in his prime years. He was not a garbage player, and tt was not a grotesque abomination of a contract, no matter how much people want to revise history to make that so.
   31. puck Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4100473)
Haven't there been several? Winfield, A-Rod's original deal, Pedro, Manny, Pujols's Cardinals deal (does this not count since it's not all FA years), Jeter.
   32. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4100477)
Jeter's 10 year contract worked out fine.

Manny's 8 year contract worked out fine

Carlos Beltran's contract was just fine

Albert's 7 year contract worked out just fine

ARod's original 10 year deal.
   33. bookbook Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4100478)
The first ten year A-Rod deal was also good for the team (even if the Rangers didn't know it).
   34. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4100481)
If you're referring to the Winfield/Yankee 25-year deal, I don't think the Yankees would agree that it was worthy. The Rangers certainly wouldn't think the Rod deal was worthy. I don't remember Pedro signing a single 7-year deal with the Sox. There have been a few (two of which you've mentioned), but if you were to look at all of them, the vast majority of 5+ year deals don't make both parties happy.
   35. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4100484)
I agree about Manny. Jeter and Pujols weren't FA, so I don't consider the comparison perfect.

But the Rangers essentially dumped Rodriguez. And the Mets more or less dumped Beltran.
   36. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4100494)
I waded into this thread to defend the megayears/megabucks Rod contract and ended up arguing that all long contracts are bad. You never know what's going to happen.
   37. puck Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4100495)
I thought the Winfield deal was 10 years. And if it's what the team thinks, whether that's rational or not, then I wonder if we end up adding deals in, to make up for some of the good ones we take out. (Such as Helton's in the first case, A-Rod's and I'd say Winfield's in the 2nd. Maybe there's not as many examples of the first sort.)
   38. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4100499)
Jeter signed a 10 year contract after playing 5 full seasons for the Yanks. They only bought out one pre-FA year.
   39. Why Bloody Valdespin? Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4100500)
And the Mets more or less dumped Beltran.

With half a season left on the contract, in return for a top 50 prospect, and after he had given them 6.5 seasons and 30+ WAR. You don't think that qualifies as successful 7 year contract?
   40. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4100501)
The odds get a lot better for pre-FA players for various reasons - they're younger and buying out early years tends to be cheaper. No, my "long deals suck" precis isn't 100%. But I guess we can ask the Angels in 2022 how the Pujols thing worked for them.

A team and a player sign the contract. In the end, I think that both of them deserve a "vote" about whether it was a successful partnership.

Also, I was not able to find Frank Thomas' deal (deals?) with the White Sox. I do remember that he was unhappy about the terms just about every year.
   41. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4100503)
I doubt any of the teams that Thome played for had a real problem with his 7 year contract.
   42. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4100510)
Also, I was not able to find Frank Thomas' deal (deals?) with the White Sox. I do remember that he was unhappy about the terms just about every year.

Frank wasn't happy with some of the clauses that his own agent told him not to have in the contract but Frank ignored him and then I think the agent quit on Frank. Then I believe he died in the plane crash that took the professional golfer's life as well.

Frank signed a 6 year extension after the 1997 season. His contract at the time ran through 2000. After the 1993 season he signed an extension that was guaranteed for 4 years plus two options. The Sox picked up those two extensions.

He signed extensions that were generally among the best in the game at the time he signed. Like I said above what really ticked him off was the diminished clause that allowed the White Sox to defer a huge chunk of his salary.
   43. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4100511)
The only issue with the original A-Rod contract was the opt-out provision after the seventh season. Had it not been there the Yankees could have let him walk after 2010 instead of now being on the hook for all eternity.
   44. deputydrew Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4100516)

Frank wasn't happy with some of the clauses that his own agent told him not to have in the contract but Frank ignored him and then I think the agent quit on Frank. Then I believe he died in the plane crash that took the professional golfer's life as well.


I'd love to know more about this. A quick google search didn't bring up anything relevant.
   45. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4100517)
Braves originally signed Maddux to a 5 year deal and then signed him to a 5 year extension on top of that. I don't think they had any problem with that.
   46. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4100519)
That's nonsense.

Total nonsense. He was 27 years old, had a OPS+ of 118 the prior four years, with 129 in his most recent season. His ZiPS for 2007 was .285/.344/.501, and a 125 OPS+ would not have been close to shocking. His defense may have been over-rated, but it was nothing close to "crap." One year (forget which) he had the best zone-rating in CF while leading in outfield assists and not making a single error. Advanced defensive metrics for outfielders are very, very spotty. None of them take into account positioning or hang-time. Vernon was making high-light reel catches every week.


The selective endpointing is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. If you take his 3 prior years instead of 4, he is at a 112 OPS+, same as his career. He had only 2 legitimate good years, both came on the two years where his BABIP was over .300, having shown no reason up to then to believe that he can keep it there regularly.

His defense is pretty much below average every single year other than 06, which looks like a massive outlier. Nobody I knew who watched him play regularly thought he was better than average defensively at the time.

I am not saying they should have expected Wells to crater like he did, but that was a 50m overpay off the bat.
   47. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4100524)

I'd love to know more about this. A quick google search didn't bring up anything relevant.


Frank had a "diminished skills" clause in his contract that Reinsdorf could use if Frank didn't make the All-star, top 10 in MVP voting, or win a batting title. If he didn't do at least one of those things Reinsdorf could pay him $250,000 a season and defer around 10 million each year and Frank if he wanted to could elect to become a FA. The first year it came up was during the 2001 season when Frank was out with a torn bicep. Reinsdorf didn't elect to exercise the clause but he did end up doing it the next year.

As for his agents I got two groups mixed up. Fraley was his agent when he signed the extension and Fraley died in the plane crash that killed Payne Stewart. His new agents quit on him in spring of 2001 because Frank was boycotting spring training because of the "diminished skill" clause of his contract.
   48. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4100537)

The selective endpointing is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. If you take his 3 prior years instead of 4, he is at a 112 OPS+,


112, with the most recent season at 129. What matters is the projection. What was his projection for 2007 and beyond? As I said, ZiPS had him at .285/.344/.501. I don't know what that translates to, OPS+-wise, but I bet it's higher than 112. A 125 OPS+ was completely reasonable, if optimistic. Why "expect" him to go back to 106? are you expecting Granderson to go back to 108 this year? Or 102?

We know what happened. It's easy to find "red flags" after the fact.

Nobody I knew who watched him play regularly thought he was better than average defensively at the time.


This seems impossible to believe.

Vernon Wells has become a punchline. But at the time, he was a legit star in his prime years. The revisionist history is galling.
   49. Greg (U)K Posted: April 08, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4100550)
Re: Vernon Wells

I seem to recall opinion at the time being split between two parties

PARTY A
Those who saw it as a refreshing sign that the Jays were willing to spend money ot keep their talent. Sure it was probably a bit of an overpay, but not a terrible one.

PARTY B
Saw it as a mistake, though not a mind-blowingly awful one. Since I was in this party I can say that my feeling was that the Jays had passed up a good opportunity to build through trade as they already had a strong CF in-house in Rios (HA!) and there were rumours of a deal with the Angels centred around Brandon Wood (ha-HA!)

Speaking of which, remember the Rios - Lincecum/Cain trade rumour? Good times.
   50. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4100552)
Hadn't they just opened the wallets for Green and Delgado?

I remember thinking that they were paying a lot for a guy who would likely never be the best hitter on the team.
   51. Greg (U)K Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:05 PM (#4100560)
Hadn't they just opened the wallets for Green and Delgado?

Delgado had left 4 seasons previous (and the Jays were so cheap they didn't even offer arbitration for fear of him accepting)
Green had left 8 years previously (and had been shipped out just as soon as he started making money in arbitration)

The Delgado/Green experience is why Jays fans were happy they were finally spending money on someone.

EDIT: Vernon Wells had the highest OPS+ on the Jays the year the deal was signed. You can argue whether a team with Vernon Wells as their best hitter is a legit contender...but at the time it was signed he was the best hitter on the team.
   52. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:06 PM (#4100561)
Maybe people didn't say the Vernon Wells contract was the worst of the decade until three months or so into it, and we need to make sure not to lump it in with the Alexis Rios contract a year later, but people were still really surprised. This was not Troy Tulowitzki, this was a guy who had just turned 28, had played five complete seasons, his second and fifth seasons were excellent and the other three were mediocre. Positive comments on the signing at the time (I just googled for "Vernon Wells contract 2006" and related phrases) emphasized how he was the face of the franchise, and he never got hurt, and it was a good sign that they were keeping their players around instead of letting them leave with no attempt to retain them like Carlos Delgado. And just about everyone said the contract was too long, much like the most recent Tulowitzki one.

Complicating factors:
- the bizarre back-loaded nature of the contract (08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M) combined with the hilarious detail that he was allowed to opt out after 2011.
- sixth biggest contract of all time. For Vernon Wells? Two good seasons and 28 years old. Well, okay, hope it works out.
- the previous year they had signed the less-than-reliable AJ Burnett and BJ Ryan to massive free-agent contracts.
- they had just finished second in the division and were therefore in a frantic "IS THIS SEASON OUR ONE AND ONLY CHANCE TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS" phase exemplified by signing the aforementioned Frank Thomas. Hopefully this works out, you guys!
   53. Greg (U)K Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4100570)
Hopefully this works out, you guys!

Hey! Stop being mean or we'll activate our "return Roy Halladay" clause.
   54. Into the Void Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4100572)
53 posts and not one mention of Zito?
   55. Greg (U)K Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4100577)
I should say Crispix is right, the Jays had just spent money on Burnett and Ryan (and picked up a bunch of salary in the Troy Glaus trade too I believe). So it wasn't all about them finally spending money. More like...finally having a home-grown "star" stick around for a while.

Of course Vernon Wells as a "star" is open for debate. I think he had two seasons as a star and a handful of lesser years. In my mind that left him slightly below star level, but I'm not sure how official any of these star rankings are.
   56. FancyPantsHandle glistening with foreign substance Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4100586)
- the bizarre back-loaded nature of the contract (08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M) combined with the hilarious detail that he was allowed to opt out after 2011.

25m signing bonus, so it wasn't backloaded as much as those numbers make it seem...
   57. Good cripple hitter Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4100589)
Green had left 8 years previously (and had been shipped out just as soon as he started making money in arbitration)

The Delgado/Green experience is why Jays fans were happy they were finally spending money on someone.


IIRC, Green's account of this (from his book) is that the Jays offered him enough money, but he didn't think that they could compete so he didn't want to sign an extension. Once he said that, the Jays traded him. I don't have the book with me so I could be wrong about the details (and it's also entirely plausible that he's not being honest in that part of the book), but I'm pretty sure that's what he wrote.
   58. Sweatpants Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4100593)
IIRC, Green's account of this (from his book) is that the Jays offered him enough money, but he didn't think that they could compete so he didn't want to sign an extension. Once he said that, the Jays traded him. I don't have the book with me so I could be wrong about the details (and it's also entirely plausible that he's not being honest in that part of the book), but I'm pretty sure that's what he wrote.
And it's not like he was traded for nothing. The Jays got Raul Mondesi, a pretty good hitter coming off a 30-30 season. Of course, a couple of years later, the Jays did end up trading Mondesi for nothing.
   59. PreservedFish Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4100595)
I'm reading through the Wells Transaction Oracle thread. Amusing comment:

7. APNY Posted: December 16, 2006 at 08:47 PM (#2263281)

By winter 2011 defensive analysis will be way more advanced and accepted, and by then i'd bet Wells is either a bad CF or a LF.
   60. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4100596)
The Jays got the better end of the Mondesi 2.0 deal.

*EDIT*

Before posting this snark, I looked at bb-ref to make sure that I wasn't misremembering. Gak!
   61. PreservedFish Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:47 PM (#4100600)
15. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 16, 2006 at 09:35 PM (#2263310)
I think this will be a very good deal from 2007-2010, and then an albatross afterwards, but hey, JP probably won't be around for that, so let someone else clean it up!
   62. Jim Wisinski Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4100601)
The Rangers certainly wouldn't think the Rod deal was worthy.


Only because they were looking for a scapegoat to cover up their own incompetence. Their non-Rodriguez payrolls (rank in the AL without his salary) in his years there:

$66m (7th)
$83m (3rd)
$81m (4th)

They couldn't compete with that payroll + an 8 WAR player? Nonsense. A fantastic bullpen and adequacy everywhere else got them a surprising 89 wins in 2004 but that was their only sign of life in the first five years of being "relieved" of most of A-Rod's contract. The contract would have been plenty worthy for them if they didn't suck at building a good team.
   63. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4100603)
I'm not arguing that, Jim. But as a contract is entered into by two parties and we have a really good idea what the second party thought of it, the Rangers' actions lead to the inescapable conclusion that it just didn't work out.

You can assign blame to whomever you want (and I largely agree with your assignment), but the Rangers/Alex Rodriguez marriage ended in divorce.
   64. AROM Posted: April 08, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4100614)
The Torii Hunter deal could have turned out much worse than it did. They signed a 32 year old with a 104 career OPS+, 123 in his last year as a Twin. After he puts up a 110 in 2008, nobody should have been shocked if he followed that with 105-100-95 and looked like dead weight coming into 2012. Instead he hits 128-126-115. Any time you make it to the final year of a long term contract and the team doesn't already regret it, that's a win in a relative sense.

There was no statistical reason to expect the deal to turn out any better than Garret Anderson's last deal, GA was 32 heading into 2004 with a 107 career and 131 most recent season OPS+. While Hunter had the advantage of being a center fielder, he did get paid a premium for it and Anderson in 2003 was a very good left fielder.
   65. Walt Davis Posted: April 08, 2012 at 08:44 PM (#4100641)
You can assign blame to whomever you want (and I largely agree with your assignment), but the Rangers/Alex Rodriguez marriage ended in divorce.

Well, kinda. If it's a marriage where you've got about 5 wives, all expensive, but you can get somebody to take one of them off your hands and give you a pretty hot chick in return.

The Rangers traded ARod for (a) PR purposes and (b) because he was the only one of their expensive players anybody wanted. I'm sure that if they could have traded the Park and Greer contracts instead, they would have gladly.

$83m (3rd)
$81m (4th)


And I believe those were #1 in the AL West.
   66. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4100652)
Knowing what we know now about Ranger finances, do we look at this period differently?

I know that in the dark days of a few years ago, I did the math to figure out how long I could afford to stay in my house (it ended well; I'm still there). But if I could have stopped paying a big bill (what, 1/5 of the payroll), it would have changed the math significantly, allowing me to hold onto my house a bit longer.

Is it possible that Hicks knew what his balance sheet and projections were, and in saving the $18 million or so by trading Rod, he was able to hold onto the team a bit longer?
   67. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4100655)
Well, you can argue that Hicks was pretty stupid to throw all that money on some pretty bad players if he couldn't afford to pay them.
   68. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4100662)
You could similiarly argue that I shouldn't have bought a house that I'd have trouble paying for if my wife lost her job. Yet I did.

I don't even think it was a terrible decision on my part. Sometimes decent decisions look really stupid if something changes.
   69. McCoy Wilfong for Money Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4100663)
You could similiarly argue that I shouldn't have bought a house that I'd have trouble paying for if my wife lost her job. Yet I did.

And if you spent a million dollars on Tyrannosaurus eggs so you can make your favorite omelete is it your house's fault that you can't pay your bills?
   70. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4100666)
Complicating factors:


I think we also have to factor in the economy, which collapsed shortly after the Wells deal; the fact that the Free Agent price-tag went down, or stopped increasing at the same rate, is noteworthy too. 20M seemed like a lot of money at the time, but it also seemed reasonable that by the time 2012 came around, 20M wouldn't be a big deal anymore. That was the direction we were heading in. And then, the economy tanked and as it turns out, in 2012 20M is still a big deal.
   71. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4100675)
The Torii Hunter deal could have turned out much worse than it did. They signed a 32 year old with a 104 career OPS+, 123 in his last year as a Twin. After he puts up a 110 in 2008, nobody should have been shocked if he followed that with 105-100-95 and looked like dead weight coming into 2012. Instead he hits 128-126-115. Any time you make it to the final year of a long term contract and the team doesn't already regret it, that's a win in a relative sense.


That was exactly the point I was making. Both Hunter and Wells were signed to risky deals that had the potential to look horrible. Hunter's did not, Wells's did. That's the way it goes. But anyone who wants to say that Wellls's deal was bad at the time has to admit that a lot of other contracts from that time period were also very bad, even if they turned out.

The fact that nobody brings up Hunter in these discussions is evidence that we are only evaluating these moves based on the results.
   72. Doris from Rego Park Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4100676)
Shawn Green wrote a book?
   73. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4100678)
The fact that nobody brings up Hunter in these discussions is evidence that we are only evaluating these moves based on the results.


Or that we (well, primarily it was just me) were talking about whether 7-year contracts ever work out, and Hunter did not sign a 7-year contract.
   74. Shock Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4100679)
Or that we (well, primarily it was just me) were talking about whether 7-year contracts ever work out, and Hunter did not sign a 7-year contract.


You brought that up after I brought up Hunter.
   75. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4100680)
Hey! Stop being mean or we'll activate our "return Roy Halladay" clause.

At the time of the Vernon Wells signing, Phillies and Blue Jays fans were in similar spaces. I remember posting repeatedly about how every team that had a winning record over the past 8 years (or something) had made the playoffs in that time (and most of them made it more than once), except the Blue Jays and Phillies.

Fortunately for us, the Braves-Mets juggernaut didn't last as long as some other juggernauts of the world.

We matched your big-money signings by trading Bobby Abreu for absolutely nothing and assembling an imposing starting rotation by adding Adam Eaton, Jamie Moyer, and an injured Freddy Garcia. This of course led to a long-awaited division crown.
   76. TVerik Posted: April 08, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4100682)
Shawn Green wrote a book?


Even crazier, somebody in this thread has not only read it, but bought a copy at some point.
   77. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines Posted: April 08, 2012 at 10:09 PM (#4100691)
I stole my copy from the Tustin Kabbalah Zen Center.
   78. Downtown Bookie Posted: April 08, 2012 at 10:11 PM (#4100692)
Shawn Green wrote a book?


We kid you not.

DB
   79. Squash Posted: April 08, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4100702)
The Torii Hunter contract, in my mind, completely counterbalances the Gary Matthews Jr. one. Both were silly. One completely tanked, the other has worked out far better than should have been expected. That they were both signed to play the same position, for the same team, in consecutive years, only compounds the weirdness.

My recollection from the Vernon Wells deal is that pretty much everyone that it was a somewhat massive overpay, but that at least he was a pretty good player.
   80. Walt Davis Posted: April 09, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4100762)
Is it possible that Hicks knew what his balance sheet and projections were, and in saving the $18 million or so by trading Rod, he was able to hold onto the team a bit longer?

Not sure where you're going with this ...

a) Maybe Hicks couldn't afford a $100+ M payroll no matter what. If so, maybe he shouldn't have signed ARod to begin with but he certainly shouldn't have signed Park and Gonzalez (Greer was bad but relative chump change).

b) Maybe Hicks overestimated ARod's impact on attendance ... in which case he must have really, really, really overestimated the attendance impact of Park, Gonzalez and Greer.

c) Maybe (most likely) Hicks and whoever was GM at the time (Hart?) overestimated the quality of the team -- which is to say they overestimated the quality of Park, Gonzalez and Greer and wasted a lot of money on them.

d) Quite possibly by the end of 2003, Hicks needed (or desparately wanted) to chop payroll. He certainly succeeded as they cut it by about $45 M. But again this leads to the conclusion that the mistake was all the wasted money on other contracts such that the only player he could trade to make big savings was ARod.

It seems to me that no matter what path you go down, the conclusion you reach is that the Rangers wasted tons of money on bad players and the ARod contract was good. That they backed themselves into a corner such that the only "solution" was to trade ARod (and save themselves only about $10-15 M a year) is not a sign that the ARod contract was a bad one for the Rangers.

And they just had bad timing as this was after the market "correction" put a dent in FA salaries. Had they waited a couple of years (which might not have been possible) they'd probably have gotten a better deal, at least financially.

It is sort of amazing but ...

from 2001-2010 (the original contract), ARod put up 65 WAR for $252 M or $3.9 M per WAR. That ain't bad.
   81. TVerik Posted: April 09, 2012 at 01:06 AM (#4100784)
Did Hicks and the ownership group around him suffer other financial issues distinct from the Rangers about that time? I could swear that I had heard this. Like my personal example above, maybe he was more able to afford the contracts when they were signed, and then unexpectedly (to him) was not able to afford them as time went on.
   82. Walt Davis Posted: April 09, 2012 at 02:23 AM (#4100798)
But so what? Sure, maybe he was "forced" to get rid of ARod because of financial mishap but that's simply because ARod was the asset he had that other people wanted.

Cot's puts the Rangers opening day 2004 payroll at just over $55. I'm guessing that does not include the $9 M a year (or whatever it was) that they were paying the Yanks but maybe it does. (I know Cots includes such payments but I don't think Cots existed back then so I don't if their historical payroll data does.) B-r only lists $43 M worth of payroll but does not include Greer who was still on the books for over $7 M and might be missing others. They were also paying Park $14 M and they were paying Soriano over $5 M (which is who they got for ARod). $14 M to Park, $7 M to Greer, $9 M to the Yanks and $5 M to Soriano -- that's enough to pay ARod and have $10 M left over. The problem wasn't ARod even if trading him was the solution.

   83. Greg (U)K Posted: April 09, 2012 at 03:26 AM (#4100806)
I stole my copy from the Tustin Kabbalah Zen Center.

So it was you that threw a monkey-wrench in Jacob/fate's plans. Just think how differently things would have worked out if John Locke's world view had been influenced by Shawn Green.
   84. Good cripple hitter Posted: April 09, 2012 at 05:47 AM (#4100815)
Even crazier, somebody in this thread has not only read it, but bought a copy at some point.


I got it as a Christmas present and the person who bought it for me got it for $3 or something like that. It's a good book, there's interesting stuff in there on Tony Fernandez, Carlos Delgado, and hitting.

It's been discussed here before, the reviews here were generally positive.
   85. Don't want the truth; just wanna see some dingers Posted: April 09, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4100940)
Park/Zito/Hampton are all bad contracts, but at least those guys had a track record of success.

Big contracts given to guys with little-to-no history like Dreifort and Gary Mathews are worse in my mind.
   86. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 09, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4101211)
Sure, maybe he was "forced" to get rid of ARod because of financial mishap but that's simply because ARod was the asset he had that other people wanted.

Which actually points to it being a good contract for the Rangers. They overextended themselves (for the sake of argument) and they were able to get out from some of their problems by trading Rodriguez.
   87. Walt Davis Posted: April 10, 2012 at 12:28 AM (#4102402)
Big contracts given to guys with little-to-no history like Dreifort and Gary Mathews are worse in my mind.

It's a lonely job being a GMj "defender" ...

In the 3 years prior to that contract, in 1533 PA, he had put up 7 WAR. Go back another year and it's over 2000 PA with 7.8 WAR. GMj was a slightly above-average CF from ages 28-31.

Now the years were too many but the money was about right. Hunter, Wells, Andruw and Ichiro (a CF playing RF) had or were about to sign for $18 M per year -- that's what an "elite" CF cost. Pierre signed for $9 per (5 years), Rowand for about $12 per (5 yhears). Alex Rios (another CF in RF) signed an arb buyout for 7/$70 (roughly $13 M in his FA years) and Granderson signed a 5/$30 buyout ($10 M in his 1 FA year).

Now, no argument that if the answer to your question was Juan Pierre at 5/$45 then you should check your math (correct answer: Mike Cameron) but an average CF in those days was gonna cost you $10 M give or take (unless his name was Mike Cameron) and GMj was an established average CF whether we like it or not. And his first year in LA, that's pretty much what he was (1.6 WAR, 2.1 oWAR).* Things didn't go so well after that.

* By the way, GMj is one of the guys where there's a pretty big difference between fangraphs and Chone. Fangraphs has him as +20 on defense across those 3 years, + 26 over 4. They give him 8.5/10.2 WAR over those 3/4 years. I checked because I recall MGL being the only other guy who "defended" the contract at the time.

** Wait a second, how does fangraphs have access to my facebook pic? I don't recall ever loading a fangraphs plug-in or anything.

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