Joe Girardi decided it was time to embark on what we have come to call “the constant search for the one guy who doesn’t have it”

This is really unfair. Girardi was quite efficient in finding several guys who didn't have it.

Breaking News : Joe Girardi over-manages.

This wasn't a particularly bad case. One pitcher got hurt, one was a loogy, one was Sergio Mitre. The key issue here is that pre-Texas injury Joba in not walking through that door any time soon.

Joba is horrible and has been since the texas injury. The wierd thing is he had one dominant appearance in detroit and his) velo seemed to be on its way up back into the high 90s. Now he's sitting 93 and rarely cracks 95.

Pre-Texas would the Yankees have traded Joba for Oswalt? A.E. Housman and all that...

Chamberlain has certainly lost velocity, but his average fastball in 2010 is 93.8, and he cracks 95 quite frequently. His average fastball yesterday was 94.8 with a 96.9 max.

His average fastball in 2007 was 97. That's right, 97. Average.

There's no need to exaggerate to make the point that pre-injury Joba isn't coming back.

I'm trying to stay rational and point to that Joba's component so far is actually quiet good , not 07-early 08 good, but even after yesterday's catastrofuck, his FIP is 2.32 and XFIP is 2.92


On the other hand, after all this crap we been through, watching his result suck makes me want to crucify him, and every damn journalist that ever wrote those damn JOBA TO TEH 8TH!!!!! columns

I hate hate hate the handedness obsession.

Velocity is not Chamberlain's problem. His problem is everything else. He falls behind in the count too often, relies too much on his slider, especially on three-ball counts, and seems incapable of making adjustments when things start going badly. To me, he looks like a classic example of a guy who just assumes he will always have a spot in the big leagues and doesn't need to work at the craft. Here's what he needs now: a demotion to Triple-A and the accompanying wake up call that would come with it.

Amen to # 8. Putting it not too politely, the boy just don't seem too bright. When he's got his best stuff he's the Joba of old, but when the slightest thing goes wrong, he's lost. I only can hope that it's all in his injury and his velocity, but unless you're Nolan Ryan or Rob Dibble, at some point you've got to learn how to use your brain, too. He wasn't helped by all the jerking around, but at some point that excuse wears pretty thin.

On the other hand, after all this crap we been through, watching his result suck makes me want to crucify him, and every damn journalist that ever wrote those damn JOBA TO TEH 8TH!!!!! columns

While those columns were wrong, they also aren't the problem. Whether the Yankees screwing around with his pitch counts caused, contributed to, or was incidental to his loss of velocity, it certainly has to be considered far more a factor than the media.

While trying to adhere to good young pitcher-treatment standards, they actually made the best case yes for 'old school' approach. Which is unfortunate.

No doubt, West’s umpire brethren, including C.B. Bucknor, who was behind the plate at the Stadium as Cleveland’s pitchers issued four walks and hit another batter during a 29-minute, 55-pitch bottom of the fourth inning, and crew chief Dana DeMuth, who at one point was seen waving his arms in impatience as the bases kept filling up with Yankees, will attest to the torture of presiding over the deadly combination of incompetent pitching and patient hitting.

Try reading this sentence out loud.

It's a single sentence that takes up 5 lines!

Velocity is not Chamberlain's problem.

Well, yes and no. His diminished velocity is still more than adequate to be a very good reliever. But it *is* indicative of the effects of whatever happened to his shoulder when he walked off that mound in Texas: diminished velocity, loss of "explosiveness", lessened slider, loss of control.

But yes, overall, I think that you're on point with the idea he isn't much of a "pitcher" at all, because frankly, he's still a "thrower" and A.T. (After Texas) he just doesn't have the stuff to get by on just being a "thrower" on a consistent basis ...

why is it that everybody here understands the Texas injury is the source of the missing velocity but nobody in the media EVER MENTIONS IT!?

is it because it doesn't fit their boring psychodramas about the crucial 8th inning?

or do they just mostly not know?

While those columns were wrong, they also aren't the problem. Whether the Yankees screwing around with his pitch counts caused, contributed to, or was incidental to his loss of velocity, it certainly has to be considered far more a factor than the media.

While trying to adhere to good young pitcher-treatment standards, they actually made the best case yes for 'old school' approach. Which is unfortunate.

Yes. From all indications, they were flying blind when they managed him down to the level of specificity that they did. They not only screwed with his pitch counts, but with his usage patterns as well. There's as much evidence that they did him harm as they did him any good.

I'd say there's more evidence they did him harm than that they did any good----we know both his velocity and performance are down. On the other side of the ledger he might still be healthy (or there might be a physical explanation for the first two things!)

Looks like a poor tradeoff to me.

On the other side of the ledger he might still be healthy

As pointed out above, he might be considered healthy, but he's not the same (as he was before the injury in Texas) ...

The "Joba got jerked around" crap is very nearly as mindless and wrong as the "Joba to teh ate" crap. The Yankees a) got a number of excellent high leverage innings out of him late in 2007, when another two or three starts (in either the majors or minors) would have been the end of his season, b) wisely started him in the bullpen to limit his innings in 2008, and c) SUCCESSFULLY transitioned him to a starting role during the 2008 season. Then he got hurt in Texas. None of the rest of the role changing and pitch limiting happens if not for the injury.

Oh, and for the record, his meltdown yesterday came in the seventh, so I'm sure the "Joba to teh ate" crowd will consider it just one more bit of jerking around.

That is simply not so. The Yankees had already, and stated they would continue to going forward, impose all of those things even before the injury.

You can defend the decisions, but not pretend they didn't occur or were based on something wholly different.

c) SUCCESSFULLY transitioned him to a starting role during the 2008 season. Then he got hurt in Texas. None of the rest of the role changing and pitch limiting happens if not for the injury.

Is this Texas injury supposed to be the one from August 4, 2008? Because everyone here seems totally convinced he hasn't been the same since, but he came back, pitching in relief, and was dominant in the pen that September (11.1 IP, 14 K, 3 BB, 0 HR) and was plenty effective as a starter the next year--that is, last year--through July (7-2, 3.58, 110 IP, 97 K, 50 BB) and then things broke down (7.52 ERA thereafter).

So I'm not buying this Texas injury theory, it seems unsupported by the numbers.

his loss of velo was most evident towards the second half last year , though even in the first half he was somewhat out performing his acutal periphals.

Let's put it this way. if Joba was pitching for say... a "insert random team outside of NY/BOS/ and maybe LA/CHI " and they do the same thing, I'm pretty sure that they either wouldn't ask, or they asked but would write much about it, and at the very least even if they do write about it, no one would give a damn and follow it up with all sorts of crap article.

I agree he's not the brightest guy out there. but again, his components so far have actually been that of a dominant reliever. though the results? not so much.

That is simply not so. The Yankees had already, and stated they would continue to going forward, impose all of those things even before the injury.

You can defend the decisions, but not pretend they didn't occur or were based on something wholly different.

Besides, even if it were true, if the usage patterns they felt they needed to institute in response to the injury were so radical as that, they should have simply sat him down instead.

They mishandled him.

The Yankees had already, and stated they would continue to going forward, impose all of those things even before the injury.

No, this is what is simply not so. Sure they would have continued to be careful with him, but if he doesn't get hurt in Texas he gets to 140-150 IP in 2008 and none of the late 2009 stuff would have been necessary. I don't know what "all those things" that they'd planned to impose are supposed to be. I do know that absent the 2008 injury and assuming continued reasonable effectiveness, he'd have throw about 140 innings in 2008 and about 170 in 2009 and would have been able to pitch without an innings limit this season.

EDIT:You can defend the decisions, but not pretend they didn't occur or were based on something wholly different.

You're missing my point. I don't defend the decisions, other than the initial decision to use him in relief in 2007 rather than shut him down, and the decision to use him in relief at the start of 2008 to limit his total IP that season. Beyond that, I'm saying that absent the 2008 injury, the subsequent strange usage decisions would not have been made because they would not have been necessary.

EDIT 2: RB, whether the injury he suffered in Texas compromised his effectiveness or not, it clearly compromised his development. He threw 11 more innings in relief over the rest of that season instead of making eight or nine more starts.

I disagreed with all those columns that said that Chamberlain should have been left as a set up man after his rookie season, but I can't say that events have proved them wrong.

Is this Texas injury supposed to be the one from August 4, 2008? Because everyone here seems totally convinced he hasn't been the same since, but he came back, pitching in relief, and was dominant in the pen that September (11.1 IP, 14 K, 3 BB, 0 HR) and was plenty effective as a starter the next year--that is, last year--through July (7-2, 3.58, 110 IP, 97 K, 50 BB) and then things broke down (7.52 ERA thereafter).

So I'm not buying this Texas injury theory, it seems unsupported by the numbers.

There was an immediate change in velocity.

I disagreed with all those columns that said that Chamberlain should have been left as a set up man after his rookie season, but I can't say that events have proved them wrong.

It was explained in the post right above yours.

So I'm not buying this Texas injury theory, it seems unsupported by the numbers.

Hmmm, let’s go to the videotape, as they used to say:

Joba as a starter –

2008: WHIP 1.301 K/9 10.2 K/BB 2.96
2009: WHIP 1.554 K/9 7.6 K/BB 1.74

And then there's the velocity issue, as NJ correctly stated ...