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Thursday, October 18, 2012

Madden: Joe Girardi originally had Alex Rodriguez in the lineup, but says that was a mistake

Now hold it, hold it. We’re about to accuse Girardi, who only happens to be the thirty-second most important man in the Yankee organization, of conducting a conspiracy from inside the club house. It would be nice if we were right.

Was Alex Rodriguez in the Yankees’ original lineup for Game 4 of the ALCS?

It depends on who you talk to.

According to Tigers manager Jim Leyland, he received two different Yankee lineups in the late afternoon, the first one listing A-Rod hitting sixth and playing third base. But then, a courier from the Yankee clubhouse brought a second lineup to Leyland’s office – the one that was officially released which omitted both A-Rod and Curtis Granderson and had Eric Chavez at third base, hitting sixth, Brett Gardner in center field and Nick Swisher back in right field after being benched the night before.

“Is something else going on over there with A-Rod?” Leyland asked the Daily News before the game was postponed by rain Wednesday. “I got two lineups from them, one with him in it and the second one with him out.”

Joe Girardi explained the two-lineup mystery as a mistake on his part and not a last-minute decision to bench A-Rod again.

“We talked about some different lineups during the day,” Girardi said, “and when I handed the lineup to (third base coach Robbie Thompson), I didn’t realize which one it was. It was actually a mistake on my part. We had people in different spots. So I called over there (to Leyland) and told them we gave them the wrong one.”

Repoz Posted: October 18, 2012 at 05:02 AM | 73 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 18, 2012 at 06:09 AM (#4275068)
I just wanna say that for someone who's usually come off as socially awkward, A-Rod was excellent in that pre-game interview. He was upfront about his displeasure with Girardi's decision without sounding petty or whiny. At this point, it's tough not to feel sorry for the guy.
   2. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: October 18, 2012 at 06:40 AM (#4275073)
I generally think Girardi is a good enough manager but this series has been a train wreck for him. Maybe tomorrow he can try to sneak a lineup through with Chavez playing third and DHing, it seems so important to him to get this hitless wonder more at bats.
   3. NJ in DC (Now with Wife!) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:16 AM (#4275078)
I'm now at the point with Girardi that I was with Torre after '03 WS G4. For the most part, I think he's been a good manager, but his handling of the lineup has been terrible this series and I don't see how he hasn't lost the clubhouse.

As an aside, why isn't this getting more play:
No. [Bunting against the shift is] not going to happen. I tried to have some fun with you guys in spring training and said I was going to lay some down. I’ve never bunted. I don’t think I’ve bunted since I was 11 years old. It’s the same thing if we needed a lefty to get someone out, I'm not going to go in the bullpen and stat throwing lefthanded. That's not what I do. I hit a couple of balls hard off Verlander, but me laying a bunt down is not going to happen. That would be desperate.
   4. AJMcCringleberry Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:17 AM (#4275079)
I like how ARod and Granderson were benched for two guys who are a combined 0-19 this postseason.
   5. bookbook Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:38 AM (#4275081)
How long has A-Rod been a Yankee? 8 years? Worst career move ever?
   6. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:41 AM (#4275082)
That would be desperate.


So what, being down 3-0 in a lowly LCS isn't a desperate enough situation for you to try to win at all costs, while staying completely within the rules, written and unwritten? How about down by 3 runs with 2 out and none on in Game 7 of the World Series? Would that still be desperate? Is your pride more valuable than a World Series ring?
   7. Howie Menckel Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:52 AM (#4275085)

Schilling was on TV last night talking about how the Yankees didn't bunt on him as expected in the Bloody Sock Game (TM) in 2004. He said he thinks he could have handled it, but seemed still surprised that they didn't at least test him.

   8. KronicFatigue Posted: October 18, 2012 at 07:54 AM (#4275088)
Yankee fan here. I'm pretty sure I'm going to root against them today. I know I want all the non-Arod struggling players to continue struggling. I want Chavez, Gardner, Swisher, Granderson and Cano to all fail, just to emphasize how unfairly Arod has been treated. But then I also want all of Girardi's crazy subs to fail too (I like Nunez but I was annoyed when he succeeded in an at bat he shouldn't have been in). That Tex quote above just really irked me. To the point that I may follow the team a lot less next year. These playoffs have made me feel that my journey with the Yankees is over. This isn't right.
   9. Hexx Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:05 AM (#4275089)
Kronic, I'm right with you. 30+ years of rooting for the Yankees and I think I'm done until Girardi is gone. He's gotten me to root against that list of players, all of whom I like. It's ridiculous.
   10. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:16 AM (#4275096)

How long has A-Rod been a Yankee? 8 years? Worst career move ever?


Disagree. He got to experience the highest highs the sport can offer (2x MVP in 05 and 07, an all-time kind of season in a major market in 07, wide acknowledgement for his role in "carrying" the Yankees in 09 to a WS, and a *new* biggest K in the history of the sport.) He's done everything he could possibly have come to do. He'll get his number retired, wear pinstripes on his HOF plaque, and probably be cheered wildly at some future Old Timers' Day.

A-Rod made the right move in going to NYC. It's just that the right move now is for him to leave NYC, preferably for a city that better suits his personality.

note: I think A-Rod had gone to the Mets in 2000, everything would have worked out better for him. Slightly less media pressure, same big city and bright lights, and a team that would have indisputably been his by 2003 or so. In the meantime, he's best off going somewhere where he can have fun at night and be an elder statesman in the clubhouse.
   11. Random Transaction Generator Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:23 AM (#4275099)
He'll get his number retired, wear pinstripes on his HOF plaque, and probably be cheered wildly at some future Old Timers' Day.


If this blows up like everyone thinks it will, and something happens in the off-season, I don't see how his number will be retired by the Yankees.
   12. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:26 AM (#4275103)
I can't wait to see how the narrative changes if the Yankees come back in this series.

I just wanna say that for someone who's usually come off as socially awkward, A-Rod was excellent in that pre-game interview. He was upfront about his displeasure with Girardi's decision without sounding petty or whiny. At this point, it's tough not to feel sorry for the guy.


I agree with this 100%. I don't know if someone is advising him or what but he is striking the right balance of "I want to be in there" with "the manager is in charge."
   13. zack Posted: October 18, 2012 at 08:50 AM (#4275119)
You know you've gone over to the sabrmetrics dark side when you start rooting for the overdogs, and rooting for your own tean to fail, because it goes against what you believe is the correctness of the sport.

No judgement here, I went over awhile ago.
   14. bunyon Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4275126)
I think the success of the first Ibanez pinch hit has gone to Girardi's head. He made the correct move there but I'm not sure he knows why it was the correct move. He got the platoon advantage and sat A-Rod who has been struggling against righties. He also "shook things up". It showed a willingness to do the unexpected (even if correct) thing.

However, when you shake things up, you give it a shake and set it back down. You don't keep shaking. Over time, A-Rod, even today, is probably a little better than the guys they're putting in in his place. And, certainly, there are many other examples of stink who aren't getting the same treatment (of course, you can't bench your entire team).

After days and days of this, it really does come off as if all of it is against A-Rod - whether to run him out of town or just at dislike/irritation of him and makes me think that first "smart" move of PHing Ibanez was a nut found by a blind, and annoyed, squirrel. Girardi seems to have learned the lesson "sitting A-Rod leads to victory" rather than, A-Rod is a good player but no longer a superstar and one I need to manage like the other players.
   15. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:22 AM (#4275135)
How long has A-Rod been a Yankee? 8 years? Worst career move ever?


I heard this interview on the radio yesterday, and the one time Rodriguez was at his most animated was when they asked him if he wanted to stay with the Yankees. He said he loved the team and the organization and the city, and it was the most sincere-sounding part of the entire interview.
   16. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:30 AM (#4275141)
If the Yankees lose this series in 4 or 5 games, is there any way he's with the team next year? Or maybe I should ask if there's any way both ARod and Girardi are with the team next year. This seems like a disaster.
   17. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:32 AM (#4275143)
wide acknowledgement for his role in "carrying" the Yankees in 09 to a WS


I don't think many people acknowledge this.
   18. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:36 AM (#4275147)
How long has A-Rod been a Yankee? 8 years? Worst career move ever?


Of the ultra-megabuck contracts over the years how many do you think the player would have been happier staying with his existing team for a bit less money? We don't know how these guys think but I wonder about A-Rod as a Seattle lifer or Manny in Cleveland and wonder if they and a lot of others in similar circumstances would have been happier in the long run. I don't think A-Rod is necessarily unhappy in New York (or was in Texas for that matter) but you can't tell me he doesn't look fondly on being a 21 year old kid in Seattle and having the world by the tail and think "maybe I should've found a way to stay."
   19. BDC Posted: October 18, 2012 at 09:40 AM (#4275152)
Maybe the New Yorker profile went to Girardi's head? Though similar treatment didn't seem to ruin Sam Fuld …

I dunno, Girardi has had ample success relative to resources in both Florida and New York, but he may be the kind of manager who overstays his welcome pretty quickly. If he does exit, I predict he'll get a job somewhere else pretty fast and be back in a position to mismanage a playoff series again soon.
   20. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4275168)

How long has A-Rod been a Yankee? 8 years? Worst career move ever?


What world do you live in where a $275,000,000.00 contract is the worst career move ever? Happiness isn't all about money, but that much cash certainly goes a long way.
   21. ASmitty Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4275173)
but you can't tell me he doesn't look fondly on being a 21 year old kid in Seattle and having the world by the tail and think "maybe I should've found a way to stay."


I think A-Rod really, really likes being in NYC. Not sure I get WHY, but it sure seems like he does.
   22. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4275177)
I don't know why, but I've disliked Girardi for a long time, and not because of any affiliation of his with the Yankees. I don't know how anyone could claim he is a great manager. He ran into some luck in Florida, big deal. And like Melo said, I don't see how he hasn't lost the clubhouse with this #### show.
   23. escabeche Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4275178)
Happiness isn't all about money, but that much cash certainly goes a long way.


But so would the amount of cash he would have gotten had he never left Seattle. The fact that he was going to be a very rich dude for the rest of his life was already settled.

   24. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4275180)
I think A-Rod really, really likes being in NYC. Not sure I get WHY, but it sure seems like he does.


I'm not saying he should have taken less money, I just wonder if he would have been happier. That of course assumes he is not happy now which is not something I have any clue about. You may be right. All this ancillary BS may be just that. Maybe he's saying to himself "I sleep with famous and beautiful women and I have enough money to have anyone I dislike buried at sea." If I'm wrong it won't be the first time that's for damned sure.

I just don't know how you put a dollar value on being a Musial or a Gwynn or a Brooks Robinson but there has to be some value to be able to walk into a ballpark and just have people adore you.

I don't know how anyone could claim he is a great manager.


My opinion of Girardi has long been that he is a manager who makes a good situation better and a bad situation worse. I'm sure there are examples to the contrary but that is my perception of him as a manager.
   25. GregD Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4275183)
"All things end under heaven, and if temporality is held to be invalidating, then nothing real succeeds." John Updike introduction to Too Far to Go

Almost all contracts for older players end in grief not because the contracts were bad for the player or team but because players' careers (except Chipper's!) end in grief.
   26. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4275189)
I think A-Rod really, really likes being in NYC. Not sure I get WHY, but it sure seems like he does.


He is a crazy rich good looking male, why wouldn't he want to live in NYC? If I had that much money NYC and/or San Francisco are the two cities I would want to live in (with a house in Hawaii or other warm weather spot).

Dude has all the money he could want and hot and cold running women and gets to live in one of the centers of the world. And yes I am sure he could be very happy in other major metropolitan areas (or anywhere I guess - money makes it easy to live well anywhere), but NYC appeals to him.

Something about really large contracts make external observers loose it - something I have witnessed first hand here in MN with the Mauer contract. Unless he is an MVP caliber player every year he is EVIL (according to many), like he held the Twin Cities hostage with a nuclear device to force ownership to give him his contract.

EDIT: My rant is not aimed at ASmitty or anyone in particular in this thread, just a random rant sparked by the thread. Carry on.
   27. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4275191)

It may just be the press coverage, but it's like they're going out of their way to torment A-Rod.
   28. JL Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4275193)
Of the ultra-megabuck contracts over the years how many do you think the player would have been happier staying with his existing team for a bit less money? We don't know how these guys think but I wonder about A-Rod as a Seattle lifer or Manny in Cleveland and wonder if they and a lot of others in similar circumstances would have been happier in the long run. I don't think A-Rod is necessarily unhappy in New York (or was in Texas for that matter) but you can't tell me he doesn't look fondly on being a 21 year old kid in Seattle and having the world by the tail and think "maybe I should've found a way to stay."

If we are playing "what ifs", how about if the players union does not step in and he takes a bit less money to go the Red Sox? Does this end better for him there?
   29. ASmitty Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4275195)
He is a crazy rich good looking male, why wouldn't he want to live in NYC? If I had that much money NYC and/or San Francisco are the two cities I would want to live in (with a house in Hawaii or other warm weather spot).


Oh I get wanting to LIVE in NYC. I'm just not sure I get wanting to play there. Though I suppose with the length of the baseball season and the fact that he probably wants to be someplace else during the winter, the live/play option may be best.
   30. JJ1986 Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4275197)
If we are playing "what ifs", how about if the players union does not step in and he takes a bit less money to go the Red Sox? Does this end better for him there?


If they still win the 2004 series? I think he's a hero for life.
   31. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4275204)
He is a crazy rich good looking male, why wouldn't he want to live in NYC?


It seems strange to me, but nearly all the New York ballplayers don't live in the city. New York City is great in a lot of ways, but it's especially great if you're young and wealthy, so you'd think ballplayers would want to take advantage of that. When John Olerud was with the Mets, I read a story about how he lived in Manhattan - but he was the only Met who did so, and most of his teammates thought it was pretty weird that he'd live there.

If you're just going to live in the suburbs anyway, there's not a lot of difference between Islip and Overland Park and Plano and Whitefish Bay.
   32. TomH Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4275206)
...and if they win the very-close 08 ALCS against the Rays. Which would have been almost as epic a comeback as '04.
   33. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:18 AM (#4275211)
If we are playing "what ifs", how about if the players union does not step in and he takes a bit less money to go the Red Sox? Does this end better for him there?


I don't know. Nomar was not at the peak of his popularity when A-Rod would have arrived so I think he would have been embraced a bit more. His arrival would have punted Manny which would have been generally popular with the fan base (Manny was definitely in one of his ebbs with the public at that point). Part of his "problem" in New York has been that he was compared to Jeter right from the get-go and a large number of fans and media were never going to let him win that one.

I think if the Sox win in '04 and '07 as they did I think he's probably incredibly popular along the lines of Schilling pre-Rhode Island tax mess. I don't think it's a certainty though. Part of the reason for A-Rod's lack of popularity he arrived on the heels of an amazingly successful time for the Yankees and despite being the highest paid and arguably the best player in the game at the time that has translated to just one WS title. I don't think any of us thought the A-Rod Yankees would have one World Series title from 2004-2011.
   34. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4275216)
and if they win the very-close 08 ALCS against the Rays. Which would have been almost as epic a comeback as '04.


I think Baseball Prospectus actually calculated the odds and as of the 6th inning of Game Five in 2008 the odds were actually longer for the Sox than they were in the 9th inning of Game Four in 2004.
   35. Accent Shallow Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4275226)
Whitefish Bay

What does this have to do with the Edmund Fitzgerald?
   36. Scott Ross Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4275234)
Considering what a s****y neighbor Olerud is, it is kinda weird that he wanted to live in Manhattan. Though maybe it was the lack of trees that appealed to him.
   37. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4275239)
I'm now at the point with Girardi that I was with Torre after '03 WS G4. For the most part, I think he's been a good manager, but his handling of the lineup has been terrible this series and I don't see how he hasn't lost the clubhouse.


I don't get why people think/thought Girardi is a good manager, but "good manager" is such a vague and hard-to-measure concept that perhaps I'm wrong. He sucks tactically, and whenever I make that general argument about a manager, people tell me that much of a manager's job is to manage the clubhouse, etc.

Well, if that's the case I don't see how Girardi hasn't failed in a major way here. It took him a span of just 8 games and 25 PA to banish and humiliate an important player. Of those 8 games, ARod played in just 6, and of those 6, he was left alone, unmolested, in just 2. By the third game Girardi was pinch hitting for him, and by the 5th game Girardi was benching him. In a span of 8 team games, Girardi benched ARod twice, pinch hit for him three times, and batted him sixth two times. It took Girardi not two weeks to marginalize ARod to the point where people are legitimately wondering whether ARod's future Yankees career has been destroyed.

This has been some of the worst managing I've ever witnessed. The 9th inning of Game 3 of the ALCS was, in my view, worse than the game in which Grady Little left Pedro in too long, which has basically served as the textbook for bad managing over this past decade. At least that was just one decision by Little in the abstract, basically to stick with Pedro come hell or high water. Girardi had a series of discrete decisions to make in the 9th re his pinch hitters, but he failed at every opportunity.

Banishing ARod, even against lefties, even as a pinch hitter, based on 6 games and 25 PAs in the postseason. Leading off with a batter (Gardner) who hasn't hit since April and couldn't get the ball out of the infield, three times not getting it past the pitcher. Going down in flames in the 9th with Ichiro and Ibanez against the lefty Phil Coke, without bringing in Swisher or ARod to pinch hit. Letting Gardner hit in the 9th, letting Eduardo Nunez hit in the 9th against Justin Verlander instead of pinch hitting for him - and I know he hit a homer, but this was a player who they thought so little of that he wasn't even on the roster to start the ALCS.

And at that, Girardi may have lost the clubhouse with his treatment of ARod and Swisher, and his willingness to flip the starters for their backups based on 20 or 25 bad PAs. (I note that ARod has been robbed at least a couple times, so his performance has been a little better than his record.) I'd perhaps conclude that Girardi just lost his mind over the issue of ARod trying to get girls' numbers in the stands, but Girardi started this nonsense - including the benching - before that incident happened.

If this isn't a bad performance by a bad manager, then basically nothing is. He is letting his ship go down with backups instead of regulars. And now Granderson will be benched.
   38. GregD Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4275242)
Jeter and A-Rod both live in Manhattan at least part of the time. Several of the Knicks live in those awful buildings by the river in the far west 60s. I don't know about others. But it is interesting how many famous actors are out and about the in the city all the time and how few athletes.
   39. Bob Tufts Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4275243)
I'd play Alex. Supposedly he put himself in scoring position even while sitting on the bench in Game Three.
   40. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4275246)
Jeter and A-Rod both live in Manhattan at least part of the time. Several of the Knicks live in those awful buildings by the river in the far west 60s.


These are great buildings. I live there!

Seriously, it's wonderful. Kind of secluded by the water, a new street/area, away from the subway and Broadway... it's great.
   41. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4275250)
I'd perhaps conclude that Girardi just lost his mind over the issue of ARod trying to get girls' numbers in the stands, but Girardi started this nonsense - including the benching - before that incident happened.

Cashman is entirely on-board with A-Rod's benching and says so in today's papers. He also indicates meeting and discussing the matter with Girardi.

As noted in the thread yesterday, managers tend not to free-lance on big decisions like this and not to make them in the face of material blow-back.

And at that, Girardi may have lost the clubhouse with his treatment of ARod and Swisher,

There's no indication this is the case, as there was no such indication in 2006 with Torre. I'm also hard-pressed to understand the invocation of "losing the clubhouse," when you've railed against "silly" psychological things like that for years. What actual on-field impact would "losing the clubhouse" have? None, right?

There's also the very real likelihood that the clubhouse supports the benching of A-Rod and Swisher -- in fact, that's far more likely than them not.
   42. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4275256)
I don't get why people think/thought Girardi is a good manager

He has had an incredible run of building great bullpens.

His offensive tactics are lacking, but he handles the pitching staff very, very well, which I have always thought is the most important managerial skill. Way more important than "managing egos".
   43. Dale Sams Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4275262)
If they still win the 2004 series? I think he's a hero for life.


Pssh. RSN pisses on Schilling's name, Beckett and Youk (relating to 2007) are afterthoughts now... they were ready to run Papi out of town over steroids and when they thought he was done a couple of years back. It's only Papi's comeback that has solidified him forever as an icon. If he really had been done a couple of years back, he'd be 'that surly guy that tainted our rings with steroids'.
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4275263)
There's no indication this is the case, as there was no such indication in 2006 with Torre. I'm also hard-pressed to understand the invocation of "losing the clubhouse," when you've railed against "silly" psychological things like that for years. What actual on-field impact would "losing the clubhouse" have? None, right?


None, but its relevance is - as I said at the start of my comment - that people have told me that intangibles are a huge part of managing. If that is the case, then Girardi has sucked at that aspect as well. That's my point.
   45. Fat Al Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4275274)
If we are playing "what ifs", how about if the players union does not step in and he takes a bit less money to go the Red Sox? Does this end better for him there?


That's a joke, right? Let's list all the great players whose tenure in Boston has ended well over the last few decades...
   46. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4275282)
That's a joke, right? Let's list all the great players whose tenure in Boston has ended well over the last few decades...

1. Yastrzemski
2. ???????
   47. Joey B. Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4275284)
At this point, it's tough not to feel sorry for the guy.

Tough for you maybe, not tough at all for me or most baseball fans that I know.
   48. Fat Al Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4275290)
These are great buildings. I live there!

Seriously, it's wonderful. Kind of secluded by the water, a new street/area, away from the subway and Broadway... it's great.


Ray, you mean "NOT FAR away," right? Or are you saying you like being far from the subway?
   49. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4275293)

If this isn't a bad performance by a bad manager, then basically nothing is.quote]

You're very quick to claim "small sample size" on behalf of players, so why do you think that managers embody one monolithic set of skills? I think Girardi has done a poor job in this series - which doesn't make him a bad manager over the long haul anymore than Alex Rodriguez is now a bad player over the long haul.
   50. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4275296)
1. Yastrzemski
2. ???????


The tenures of Evans and Rice didn't end badly, so much as the Red Sox simply weren't interested in continuing with them. Same, really, for Boggs. And Schilling. And Pedro too, no?

On the other hand, there's:
Manny
Clemens
Nomar

Beckett and Gonzalez are lesser players, but that didn't end well.



   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4275297)
At this point, it's tough not to feel sorry for the guy.

Tough for you maybe, not tough at all for me or most baseball fans that I know.


Yeah, I don't hate ARod, but I don't feel sorry for him.

I'm pretty mad at ARod, Cano, Swisher and Granderson for their choke-tastic performances. At least ARod's old and hurt, the other don't have that excuse.
   52. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4275303)
Ray, you mean "NOT FAR away," right? Or are you saying you like being far from the subway?


It's a 6 minute walk to the subway from where I am, which in Manhattan terms is basically like Chevy Chase going through the dessert.

I like being that far away from the subway, yes.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4275304)
The tenures of Evans and Rice didn't end badly, so much as the Red Sox simply weren't interested in continuing with them. Same, really, for Boggs.

I don't recall the Evans departure, but there was plenty of bad blood with Boggs.
   54. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4275312)
You're very quick to claim "small sample size" on behalf of players, so why do you think that managers embody one monolithic set of skills?


Because one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. In a fair world Girardi would be fired for the incompetence he displayed in the 9th inning of Game 3 alone, to say nothing of his performance over this postseason. He has over-reacted to a small subset of PAs, and is now going to war with his practice squad. That is utterly absurd.

I think Girardi has done a poor job in this series - which doesn't make him a bad manager over the long haul anymore than Alex Rodriguez is now a bad player over the long haul.


Yes, it does. The comparison is ludicrous. If Girardi announced that his starting rotation for the rest of the series would be Eppley, Rapada, Garcia, and Nova, would he not deserve to be fired before game time tonight? That is essentially what he's done with his lineup. He is fielding a B Team lineup of the type that you see in spring training. And why? Because he doesn't understand how the game of baseball works, despite spending his entire life in it.

He is the on-field head of a billion dollar business. Tens of millions of dollars are riding on the decisions he makes, and he is utterly in over his head.

It seems you are unwilling to call any manager a bad one, Tom. You're unwilling to say that any manager deserves to be fired. At least, I've never seen you do anything but provide cover for any manager. That is odd.
   55. JJ1986 Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4275313)
I think the fans relationship with A-Rod would have been similar to the one with Ortiz. Maybe they dislike him or want him gone when he's nor performing, but fans are always ready to love David again when he does well. Schilling (and Damon and Manny) are disliked for things that they did off the field. And while Beckett was hated just for sucking, I think the 2004 title buys more goodwill than the 2007 one.
   56. GregD Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4275319)
Ray, I'm just teasing; narcissism of small differences on my part as I live 15 blocks north. I hope you have a view! That's the one thing I would like there, I think, a big river view.
   57. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4275330)
No view, Greg. At least not one of the river. And not on a high floor. Would cost an extra $200K for that.

I face east.
   58. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4275352)

It's a 6 minute walk to the subway from where I am, which in Manhattan terms is basically like Chevy Chase going through the dessert.


He's put on a few pounds as he's gotten older, but I didn't think he was that big an eater.
   59. Downtown Bookie Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4275355)
In a fair world Girardi would be fired for the incompetence he displayed in the 9th inning of Game 3 alone, to say nothing of his performance over this postseason.


If Big George was still alive and running the ship, you could guarantee that Giradi and Cashman would be gone before Halloween.

DB
   60. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4275356)
To elaborate: The "small sample size" argument doesn't work for managers, because with managers we are dealing with broad concepts, and we need only one "sample" to see whether a manager understands a broad concept. No other sample is needed than that 9th inning to realize that Girardi doesn't understand what he's looking at. Such as the fact that Ibanez sucks against lefties, and no amount of magic pixie dust will change that.
   61. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4275375)
To elaborate: The "small sample size" argument doesn't work for managers, because with managers we are dealing with broad concepts, and we need only one "sample" to see whether a manager understands a broad concept.


Exactly. Luck and the other team have little bearing on whether or not Girardi's decisions are reasonable. The approach is just wrong. If a batter went up and swung and missed at the first three pitches he saw in 25 consecutive ABs, I don't think Ray would be claiming his .000 average was an illusion of small sample szie.
   62. JL Posted: October 18, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4275381)
I don't recall the Evans departure, but there was plenty of bad blood with Boggs.


Was that with the fans, or just the front office.

I think there are two ways to look at it: how the fans perceive him and how the front office perceives him. Currently, it looks (to me as an outsider) like both can't stand ARod. Assuming in our time machine that the Red Sox still win in 04 and 07 (and add 09 because ARod killed it that year), do the fans turn on him if he is declining like he has the last couple of years?My guess is that they might have given him a bit more time, but who knows. The FO would be upset over the rest of the contract regardless.
   63. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 18, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4275393)

It seems you are unwilling to call any manager a bad one, Tom. You're unwilling to say that any manager deserves to be fired. At least, I've never seen you do anything but provide cover for any manager. That is odd.


I try very hard never to say that a manager is good, either (although I may have done so somewhere). I prefer to see managers as a collection of different skills, which may be variable over time. We were talking about Jim Leyland the other day, and someone called him "dumb" because of a single move he made, and MCoA responded that everyone, even the smartest people, does dumb stuff sometimes. I subscribe to that view. It doesn't make Jim Leyland a bad manager, or even a dumb one.

And I would never, ever fire a manager over one mistake, or even a series of mistakes. The time to fire a manager is when the team has a reasonable expectation that they could bring in someone else to do a better job, and not a moment before.

In the specific case of Girardi, he's done a poor job in this series (although I think his handling of the pitching staff has been fine). At the same time, I thought he did a very good job in the 20009 postseason. Does that not still count? Or do you think his skills have changed over time? Could he possibly go back to being that manager again, especially if he is chastened by his poor performance this year? I don't know the answers to all those questions, but I think they're worth asking.
   64. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4275433)
I don't recall the Evans departure, but there was plenty of bad blood with Boggs.

Was that with the fans, or just the front office.


Boggs hit free agency off of his first sub-.300 year, and fans were, by and large, indifferent about seeing him go. There was a perception that Scott Cooper was as good. One of the local talk radio shows did a daily comparison of Cooper's and Boggs's batting average during 1993, called "Wade Watch." Boggs of course won the contest.
   65. thetailor Posted: October 18, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4275439)
Ray, I'm just teasing; narcissism of small differences on my part as I live 15 blocks north.

So when is the next Primate meet up?!
   66. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4275445)
So when is the next Primate meet up?!


It is tonight at 8pm at Flashdancers.
   67. PepTech Posted: October 18, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4275509)
At this point, it's tough not to feel sorry for the guy.

I vehemently disagree. It's quite easy not to feel sorry for him. Watch me.
   68. Dale Sams Posted: October 18, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4275566)
Schilling (and Damon and Manny) are disliked for things that they did off the field


Just nitpicking, but at the end, Schilling was "That guy who just ripped off the Sox for 8 million". Now this may have something to do with his mouth.*

*Of which, I feel the animus is right up there with the insane hate Youk gets from non-Sox fans.
   69. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: October 18, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4275628)
Just nitpicking, but at the end, Schilling was "That guy who just ripped off the Sox for 8 million".

They got off cheap compared to Rhode Island.
   70. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 18, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4275716)
Primey to Voros.
   71.     Hey Gurl Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4276261)
I feel sorry for A-Rod. I don't care how much money he makes, this whole circus is beyond ridiculous.
   72. Darren Posted: October 18, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4276278)
I felt bad for Arod before he reupped with NY. By that time, he had been through getting scapegoated and called a choker and decided to stay for more of the same, so I figured he was fine with it.
   73. Loren F. Posted: October 19, 2012 at 12:38 AM (#4276350)
I live in the West 60s (not in one of the Trump buildings), so I may be neighbors with you, Ray. I like it a lot, and I'm not even on the Knicks. I think a lot of athletes did not grow up in a big city, and so even if they play for a NY team they prefer to live in the suburbs (where in many ways things are easier) and have the city nearby for Broadway shows, nightclubs, etc.

I'm a lifelong Yankees fan, have rooted for A-Rod from day one, and I don't feel sorry for him. I am perplexed by the way he's been singled out when Chavez hit .000 and the heart of the order was punchless. But no, I don't feel sorry for him.

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