Has there ever been a losing team that ever had an article written about them that says 'yeah, they're 39-41, but man, they have great chemistry going in the clubhouse'?

Not exactly those words of course, but it's not unheard of. Often it'll be about young teams that are 39-41 (usually surprisingly so, a year earlier than expected) and on their way up the success cycle, though. Sort of a "They like each other, the 39-41 this season is because of that, and when they get some experience then their tangibles will start to match their intangibles" thing. A trifecta of bloviated cliches.

I thought clubhouse chemistry was conquered by Alexander the Great Cora.

Has there ever been a losing team that ever had an article written about them that says 'yeah, they're 39-41, but man, they have great chemistry going in the clubhouse'?

In the articles defense, that wasn't as much about clubhouse chemistry as about political intrigues.

I just finally got around to looking up Bobby Parnell. This is the guy I keep hearing the Mets shouldn't give up? If you're not willing trade a guy like him, you're never getting back anyone of any consequence.

This is the guy I keep hearing the Mets shouldn't give up?

You waited a bit too long to check him up :-)

More than anything, Minaya’s biggest problem is he’s a victim of his own fallow farm system.

Well, it's not exactly "fallow". It's more a matter of which pieces of it Minaya is willing to move. For example:

didn’t have the major league ready power arm the Indians wanted for Mark DeRosa.

isn't exactly true, but the Mets weren't going to move Niese for DeRosa.

-- MWE

@6, I can't imagine his peripherals were sufficiently impressive before. And even if he was a really good reliever, that's not the type of guy you make untouchable.

Met fans, including myself, allowed ourselves to believe that Parnell was better than his minor league numbers indicated. He was throwing 97+ regularly, was hitting 100 MPH once or twice a week, and his slider was just good enough to keep hitters offbalance. He was quite successful when he wasn't struggling with his control and he was always good in the first innings of ballgames as a minor leaguer. He isn't throwing as many strikes anymore and he's getting pounded.

I don't think the Met system is THAT bad and it looks a lot better now than it did before the season started. This year is just cursed for them. That happens, even to teams that are generally locks for the playoffs, but it hurts more because the Mets have blown chances to make the playoffs the last two years.

isn't exactly true, but the Mets weren't going to move Niese for DeRosa

I heard that it was Parnell they didn't want to give up.

Met fans, including myself, allowed ourselves to believe that Parnell was better than his minor league numbers indicated. He was throwing 97+ regularly, was hitting 100 MPH once or twice a week, and his slider was just good enough to keep hitters offbalance.

That vast majority of Mets fans 1: had no clue what his minor league numbers were and 2: didn't care when told.

Maybe I missed the real good outings, but all I saw was a guy who could throw really hard, had nothing esle going for him, but was half decent in small doses...

other Mets fans were calling WFAN and wanting to know why he wasn't being used as a starter [truly bizarre, llke a reverse Joba fixation...]

yes he has a terrific arm, but he's no pitcher, yes IF he turns the corner and figures a few things out he has more upside than someone who doesn't throw as hard as he does. He's not there yet and likely never will be there.

Speaking of Niese, he threw a complete game shutout tonight. He's allowed 5 ER in his last six starts.

I think he's ready.

For whatever reason, Bernazard seems to have the Wilpons’ ears, even more so than Minaya, and in organization meetings he’s never reticent to suggest areas where the manager might be doing a better job.

Tony Bernazard: the Jim Bowden of Queens!

This is the guy I keep hearing the Mets shouldn't give up? If you're not willing trade a guy like him, you're never getting back anyone of any consequence.

Three weeks into the season Parnell had an ERA around 1.00 and was smacking 100 mph on the gun. He has no track record before that, but it was his first move to the bullpen. Tough to blame Mets fans for being bullish on him

Well, you've got to have bit of a sense of reality, though, don't you? And it's okay to enjoy his performance and hope it's for real, but you've got to be willing trade guys who have mediocre histories and a blip of goodness. Recent discussions treated him as untouchable, which seems ludicrous to me.

Recent discussions treated him as untouchable, which seems ludicrous to me.

Other than Rasky, I don't think anyone around here said he was untouchable even when we were really high on him.

Russlan, I would appreciate you not attributing things that aren't true to me, since it seemed to bother you when Levski misattributed you. It's very annoying.


I said that the Mets should be patient with Parnell, since that's necessary with any young pitcher and especially one who can throw 95+ consistently.

However, I've *never* said that Parnell should be untouchable. In fact, I've always said that Parnell should be one of the trading chips Omar should use to acquire a frontline pitcher. (I've also said that I wouldn't trade Parnell for NJohnson, but that's more due to Johnson being a FA at the end of the year while Parnell will be locked in for several years)

I'm tempted to be harsher, but since we've had civil exchanges in the past, I'll just say, please be more careful. Otherwise, please don't try to represent me.

Niese ain't ready unless it's to weaken his trade value. Though I guess if he's not awful, it's also a good way to use him in the big club while also preventing a bad trade.

Russlan, I would appreciate you not attributing things that aren't true to me, since it seemed to bother you when Levski misattributed you. It's very annoying.

Rasky, I honestly do that the "Rasky loves his Met prospects" meme as a joke and I know you don't think Parnell is untouchable. I'm sure you would have traded Parnell for Hanley if the Marlins offered that deal, for example. That said, the fact that you wouldn't have traded Johnson for Parnell is an indication that you were probably too high on him from before.

The Mets should be ashamed of themselves. If they were winning, the Met BTFers would never be in a situation where we are talking about this!

On a more serious note, I am sincerely sorry that I have offended you and will try to be more careful if/when I quote you in the future. I hope you accept the apology. I hope you know any mistakes I've made have been unintentional.

Can the Mets add salary? Has anyone asked this question yet? I am highly skeptical that more than 5 MLB teams can add salary before the trade deadline, in fact I fully expect an unusual trade market where many teams are willing to "give away" talent for less in order to dump salary. Waiting will pay off this year.

Yeah, I've reversed my position on the Parnell-Johnson trade, which rumors have it, was rejected on the Mets side. The situation is pretty dire for the Mets right now, and they should trade Parnell for immediate offensive help if they can. I've also changed my stance because it's pretty clear that neither Murphy nor Evans are going to be the answer in the short run, and Tatis is not helpful either. (This wasn't clear to me in May or even early June).

I would see what Washington would be willing to give back for Parnell. In my order of preference, it would be: Dukes (yes, even though I despise his past) > Guzman > NJohnson. But any of those 3 would be a boost.

The other thing I would do is to call Moises Alou. We need a bat, and Alou can hit. He can hit better than anyone not named Wright or Sheffield in the current lineup.

I would also sign Pedro.

I would move Niese if it's in a package for the right player - (Holliday, VMartinez, etc.)

Yeah, Russlan, we're cool. The Mets have brutalized me over this past month. I'm emotionally battered.

Yikes, I didn't realize how well Niese has been pitching recently. Niese has a 1.04 ERA in his last 6 starts (5 er in 43 IP). I know Perez has to start because of the contract and his recent track record of being an averagish starting pitcher but Niese should probably be starting in place of Nieve or Livan ASAP.

Rasky, we're cool right?

Edit: Even if Niese isn't better than Nieve or Livan in the short run, the experience for the future would be pretty valuable.

I think it would help if you Mets chatter didn't make fun of Wright so much, the donkey thing is pretty mean. I'm not sure who exactly is perpetuating it, apologizes for whoever ain't.

Can the Mets add salary?

They probably can add a few million but not much more than that.

Speaking of Met minor leaguers, Ike Davis homered for the 2nd straight day and seems to be adjusting nicely to AA so far. He has a pretty .273/.418/.477 batting line so far in 55 PA, not bad considering some of us wanted to ccnvert him to a pitcher a few months ago. He is striking out more than you'd like but he's walking a ton and the power looks like it is developing.

I think it would help if you Mets chatter didn't make fun of Wright so much, the donkey thing is pretty mean. I'm not sure who exactly is perpetuating it, apologizes for whoever ain't.

I started that and think it's pretty funny. We've been struggling for years to give him a nickname that would stick and Donkeyface seems like the only one that has stuck for any length of time.

I had a dream last night that the Mets traded the Fernanchise for Victor Martinez. And I died a little bit inside.

I think it would help if you Mets chatter didn't make fun of Wright so much, the donkey thing is pretty mean.

Hey, it's nicer than my nickname for Beltran!

I started that and think it's pretty funny. We've been struggling for years to give him a nickname that would stick and Donkeyface seems like the only one that has stuck for any length of time.

I understand if it was an opposing player (Yankee fans with Pedroia), baseball related (Run fairy), a difficult to like player (Randy Johnson), or an easy to despise player (like B Myers), but that's a pretty personal dig on a bland but cool dude who is pretty good, tries hard, and on the team you root for. Bad karma, I think.

I understand if it was an opposing player (Yankee fans with Pedroia), baseball related (Run fairy), a difficult to like player (Randy Johnson), or an easy to despise player (like B Myers), but that's a pretty personal dig on a bland but cool dude who is pretty good, tries hard, and on the team you root for. Bad karma, I think.

Really? I don't think there's any question that Mets fans like David Wright. It's a nickname - they're supposed to poke fun. Poking fun at one's friends is always more enjoyable that poking fun at those you dislike, the latter can build up a nasty quality. Sox fans calling Pedroia "Petunia" occasionally seemed like a nice version of that. I thought Matt Taibbi's evaluation of Youkilis probably contained six or seven good potential nicknames.

but that's a pretty personal dig on a bland but cool dude who is pretty good, tries hard, and on the team you root for.

I'm pretty sure that David doesn't care. I don't think he even posts in the chatter anymore!

As for the karma thing, I don't think we could possibly add any worse karma to the team in the chatter than the average fan does elsewhere. When they insult Wright, they aren't doing it tongue in donkey cheek.

Can the Mets add salary? Has anyone asked this question yet?

I remember reading an article a few days back featuring a quote from Omar to the effect that they could. But it is a minorly popular theory among NYers that the Wilpons took a bath on the Madoff thing and are maxed out for the 2009. It wouldn't shock me, but I make no claims of the veracity.

But it is a minorly popular theory among NYers that the Wilpons took a bath on the Madoff thing

That's not really a theory. Wilpon and his company (Stirling) were Madoff investors. Multiple Mets and Sterling related accounts appear in the Bankruptcy Court filing.

The only question is how much, speculation has been in the $300-500M range, and how much that affects the Mets.

But it is a minorly popular theory among NYers that the Wilpons took a bath on the Madoff thing and are maxed out for the 2009.

see #29,

My gut feeling is that the Wilpons, even if not "technically" maxed out, are outside their comfort zone.

If they don't think this team can win, if they think they need more than 1-2 impact players just to stay in the race if and until Reyes/Beltran/Delgado/Maine return, that's it. Unlike 2004, when they deluded themselves into thinking that 2-3 additions would make them competitive, this year I think they'll go the other way.

IOW, no added salary, in fact they may try to shed some if at all possible

Really? I don't think there's any question that Mets fans like David Wright. It's a nickname - they're supposed to poke fun.

So all those kids calling me Fatso when I was a kid were my friends?