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Wednesday, January 08, 2014

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas elected to Hall of Fame

Since the BBWAA site is down (natch).

Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine know plenty about shutouts, but the two former Atlanta Braves teammates didn’t allow another one in Hall of Fame balloting.

The 300-game winners led the Hall’s first class of three first-time electees since 1999 and slugger Frank Thomas joined them in earning induction one year after nobody was chosen in balloting by the Baseball Writers Association of America.

Maddox received 97.2% of the votes, followed by Glavine with 91.9% and Thomas with 83.7%.

Craig Biggio fell just short of the 75% threshold, garnering 74.8%, two votes shy, In his 15th and final year, Jack Morris fell of the ballot with 61.5%.

Repoz Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:12 PM | 441 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4633575)
Holy crap, they announced the voting today?
   2. sinicalypse Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4633576)
i'll be sure to pour some out for jack morris, which is undoubtedly the overriding sentiment here =D
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:16 PM (#4633579)
16 voters said "Greg Maddux? Not a HOFer."

16 voters should have their head examined and their voting privileges revoked. Maybe even their children taken away.
   4. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4633581)
From the Gizmo thread:

1779. Jick Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:12 PM (#4633565)
Name
Votes (Pct.)
Yrs on ballot
Greg Maddux 555 (97.2%) 1
Tom Glavine 525 (91.9) 1
Frank Thomas 478 (83.7) 1
Craig Biggio 427 (74.8) 2
Mike Piazza 355 (62.2) 2
Jack Morris 351 (61.5) 15
Jeff Bagwell 310 (54.3) 4
Tim Raines 263 (46.1) 7
Roger Clemens 202 (35.4) 2
Barry Bonds 198 (34.7) 2
Lee Smith 171 (29.9) 12
Curt Schilling 167 (29.2) 2
Edgar Martinez 144 (25.2) 5
Alan Trammell 119 (20.8) 13
Mike Mussina 116 (20.3) 1
Jeff Kent 87 (15.2) 1
Fred McGriff 67 (11.7) 8
Mark McGwire 63 (11.0) 8
Larry Walker 58 (10.2) 4
Don Mattingly 47 (8.2) 14
Sammy Sosa 41 (7.2) 2
Rafael Palmeiro 25 (4.4) 4
Moises Alou 6 (1.1) 1
Hideo Nomo 6 (1.1) 1
Luis Gonzalez 5 (0.9) 1
Eric Gagne 2 (0.4) 1
J.T. Snow 2 (0.4) 1
Armando Benitez 1 (0.2) 1
Jacque Jones 1 (0.2) 1
Kenny Rogers 1 (0.2) 1
Sean Casey 0 (0) 1
Ray Durham 0 (0) 1
Todd Jones 0 (0) 1
Paul LoDuca 0 (0) 1
Richie Sexson 0 (0) 1
Mike Timlin 0 (0) 1


8.38 players per ballot. So it was down quite a bit from the Gizmo this year.
   5. dlf Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4633583)
This long time Braves fan is now looking into a trip to the shores of Lake Glimmerglass this summer! Congrats to Maddog, Bobby, and Glavine as well as the rest of the well deserving electees.
   6. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4633584)
8.4 players per ballot compares how to prior years?
   7. Russ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4633585)
Poor Craig Biggio. Is that 1 or 2 ballots? Do they round up or down?

   8. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4633590)
8.38 players per ballot. So it was down quite a bit from the Gizmo this year.


Still a good total, but we should have been more pessimistic that the non-published voters weren't going to be following the trend of the published voters to the same degree. The non-published guys are going to be the oddballs.
   9. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4633595)
shame on me

congrats to maddux, Glavine and Thomas. well deserved
   10. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:19 PM (#4633598)
Looks like Thomas screaming about so many players being on steroids except for him worked. Good job, Frank. You're officially excused from being tarnished by the Steroid Era. You were a massive player who hit a lot of home runs without Needing Or Using Steroids since you had such a massive size advantage.

I look forward to your Hall of Fame speech where you accuse Jeter and others who finished ahead of you in MVP races as being steroids users.
   11. Zach Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4633603)
At least the Ballot Apocalypse isn't creating too much deadlock to elect anybody.
   12. Guapo Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4633607)
OK EVERYBODY, LISTEN UP: IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO KEEP CRAIG BIGGIO ALIVE FOR THE NEXT 12 MONTHS.
   13. Charlie Gibbs Fracture Zone Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4633608)
There's an outside chance that Biggio (74.8%) and Bagwell (54.3%) might go in together next year, so there's that.
   14. LargeBill Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4633609)
Watching the interviews on MLB Network and Glavine seems to have aged a lot since I last saw him.
   15. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4633611)
good for mike piazza. cannot imagine a scenario where mikey doesn't make it now

hopefully murray's power of spite sustains him so he be present for when mike is inducted into the hof
   16. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4633612)
Biggio just short. Morris fails to gain entrance via the front door. Piazza a bit lower than expected. McGwire and Sosa hanging on, Palmeiro now off.
   17. MikeTorrez Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4633614)
Biggio's gotta get in next year right?
   18. zonk Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4633615)
I'd say the 16 who didn't vote for Maddux PLUS the voters who found room for these guys:

Moises Alou 6 (1.1) 1
Hideo Nomo 6 (1.1) 1
Luis Gonzalez 5 (0.9) 1
Eric Gagne 2 (0.4) 1
J.T. Snow 2 (0.4) 1
Armando Benitez 1 (0.2) 1
Jacque Jones 1 (0.2) 1
Kenny Rogers 1 (0.2) 1


I suppose maybe there's some twisted logic where one might find room for Nomo (say, an awful lot of NBL credit plus some vague pioneer but not a real pioneer but a pioneer as a pitcher plus he threw a no hitter in Coors plus that windup was really cool).... However, Benitez? Jones?

Come on... that's a joke ballot. It's like writing in Mickey Mouse for President.
   19. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4633616)
Can we stop bashing Jack Morris now? He was an excellent pitcher who had an excellent career and gave us some great moments. It's weird that his candidacy got tangled up in this weird narrative/old school vs new school/a generation of pitchers haven't been honored so we better honor the one guy we haven't let drop off the ballot juju. But there you go and thank god it's over and we can appreciate the guy again.
   20. Monty Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4633617)
News from Deadspin: the writer who sold his vote was Dan Le Batard.
   21. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4633618)
16 voters should have their head examined and their voting privileges revoked. Maybe even their children taken away.


I'm OK with the non-unanimous votes. It's baseball's highest honor and nobody's perfect.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4633619)
Looks like Thomas screaming about so many players being on steroids except for him worked. Good job, Frank. You're officially excused from being tarnished by the Steroid Era. You were a massive player who hit a lot of home runs without Needing Or Using Steroids since you had such a massive size advantage.

I look forward to your Hall of Fame speech where you accuse Jeter and others who finished ahead of you in MVP races as being steroids users.


Unfortunately your "To avoid being illogical, anyone who played during the PED era, which goes back to the mid-1960s, should be ineligible if McGwire and Sosa are ineligible, you morons" position continues to be unpopular.
   23. zonk Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4633623)
hopefully murray's power of spite sustains him so he be present for when mike is inducted into the hof


This.

And then I hope Piazza specifically thanks Murray in his induction speech... I doubt anyone would be that vindictive, but I'm all in favor of giving Piazza a pass and letting him waste a throwaway line on Murray.
   24. President of the David Eckstein Fan Club Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4633624)
Kind of bummed seeing Raines under 50% again.
   25. JRVJ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4633626)
19, agreed. I have nothing against the man, and I think a lot of the vitriol against Jack Morris baseball abstraction crossed over the line to vitriol against Jack Morris the person.
   26. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:25 PM (#4633628)
Looks like Thomas screaming about so many players being on steroids except for him worked. Good job, Frank. You're officially excused from being tarnished by the Steroid Era. You were a massive player who hit a lot of home runs without Needing Or Using Steroids since you had such a massive size advantage.

I look forward to your Hall of Fame speech where you accuse Jeter and others who finished ahead of you in MVP races as being steroids users.


I suggest yoga or, failing that, smoking. Something to calm your nerves.
   27. jdennis Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4633630)

Moises Alou 6 (1.1) 1
Hideo Nomo 6 (1.1) 1
Luis Gonzalez 5 (0.9) 1
Eric Gagne 2 (0.4) 1
J.T. Snow 2 (0.4) 1
Armando Benitez 1 (0.2) 1
Jacque Jones 1 (0.2) 1
Kenny Rogers 1 (0.2) 1


There is probably a guy who sees his role as "courtesy vote guy" and/or wants to mock the process and voted for all of these players and no one else.
   28. JE (Jason) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4633631)
Are the Braves at home while the induction ceremonies are taking place? If so, will anyone make it to the ballpark?
   29. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4633634)
Congrats to the lucky three, well deserved.

Looks like Thomas screaming about so many players being on steroids except for him worked. Good job, Frank. You're officially excused from being tarnished by the Steroid Era. You were a massive player who hit a lot of home runs without Needing Or Using Steroids since you had such a massive size advantage.

Tactless. Tasteless. Pathetic.
   30. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4633635)
8.4 players per ballot compares how to prior years?


It was 6.6 last year. But that's up less than 2 with 3 new HOFers debuting on the ballot - hence, (almost) everybody else went down.
   31. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4633636)
From SB Nation:

Looking further down the list of this year's results, you find that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and others with PED connections continue to make little progress. Bonds went from 36.3% last year to 34.7% this time, Clemens went from 37.6% to 35.4%. They'll get in eventually, but not for a while, and perhaps not ever through the BBWAA.


That's weird reasoning. Both Bonds and Clemens got fewer votes this year than last but the author thinks they'll both get in?
   32. LargeBill Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4633637)
Moises Alou 6 (1.1) 1
Hideo Nomo 6 (1.1) 1
Luis Gonzalez 5 (0.9) 1
Eric Gagne 2 (0.4) 1
J.T. Snow 2 (0.4) 1
Armando Benitez 1 (0.2) 1
Jacque Jones 1 (0.2) 1
Kenny Rogers 1 (0.2) 1


So, despite the crowded ballot people found room to give shout out throw away votes to eight players with almost no case. Silly. Wonder how many of those voters skipped Biggio or Palmeiro?
   33. zonk Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4633639)

There is probably a guy who sees his role as "courtesy vote guy" and/or wants to mock the process and voted for all of these players and no one else.


OK... but how are there TWO votes for JT Snow? TWO!
   34. JE (Jason) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4633642)
19, agreed. I have nothing against the man, and I think a lot of the vitriol against Jack Morris baseball abstraction crossed over the line to vitriol against Jack Morris the person.

Let's not go overboard. Morris is no Buckner. It's not as though anyone sent the man a death threat.
   35. Jeltzandini Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4633643)
I'm OK with the non-unanimous votes. It's baseball's highest honor and nobody's perfect.


But it's not a vote on whether Greg Maddux was perfect. Or a score on how he compares to the greatest player ever. If it were, 97.2 would a fine enough score. It's 571 separate yes-or-no votes, and the only sane answer is yes.
   36. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4633648)
Tactless. Tasteless. Pathetic.


But that's our Ray.
   37. JRVJ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:29 PM (#4633650)
This result carries the ballotgeddon scenario forward for a couple of extra years, since at least 4 non-Morris inductees were needed to clear up at least one slot (assuming Maddux, Glavine, Thomas and Mussina at least are HoF worthy).

However, I am not entirely sure of what the solutions are, without at least seeing the results of the public ballots.

Very preliminarily, I think the 10 player maximum kept out Biggio, PLUS any blank ballots (I saw a tweet by Jonah Keri to the effect that there was only one blank ballot, but we'll see), PLUS anti-PED one player ballots.

I suspect that if the first two problems can be solved (no 10 player maximum and no blank ballots counted), Biggio would have been in this year, and some other candidates would have gotten some more momentum going forward.
   38. fra paolo Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4633652)
How low can a percentage go, and yet still see one elected by the BBWAA?

I suppose it is possible that last year's vote might have been the high-water mark of the so-called steroid-tainted candidates. I can imagine Bonds and Clemens gradually losing support over the next few years as people conclude they are unelectable, and try to find candidates for whom PED-prejudice isn't quite so extreme.

I personally am pessimistic about the chances for anyone who fell below 50 per cent support in this election.
   39. Dale Sams Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4633653)
No one is going to say anything about a guy with 3000+ hits and 569 HRs falling off the ballot?
   40. JRVJ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4633656)
34, Straw meet Man.
   41. The Non-Catching Molina (sjs1959) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4633657)
If Jack Morris gets in via the Veterans Committee, I will not be upset. If Bonds and Clemens never get in, I WILL be upset, because regardless of the (alleged) 'roid years, they both had HOF-level careers.
   42. LargeBill Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4633658)
Frank Thomas just said he's been tracking the gizmo!!!
   43. Squash Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4633662)
First off, congrats to Greg Maddux and Frank Thomas, two of my favorite players of all time!


So Palmeiro drops off. Sosa was close. Do people think he drops next year? Bummer for Biggio, it's got to suck being that close to the line.
   44. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4633666)
Difference in votes from 2013, for holdover guys:

Biggio: + 39
Piazza: + 26
Bagwell: -29
Raines: -34
Clemens: -12
Bonds: -8
Smith: -101
Schilling: -54
Martinez: -60
Trammell: -72
McGriff: -51
McGwire: -33
Walker: -65
Mattingly: -28
Sosa: -30
Palmeiro: -25
   45. The District Attorney Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4633667)
insane loon
   46. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4633668)
No one is going to say anything about a guy with 3000+ hits and 569 HRs falling off the ballot?


Yeah! ?
   47. Wahoo Sam Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4633669)
What does everyone think about a 3,000-hit, 500-HR guy FALLING OFF THE BALLOT?

I think Morris, Trammell, and Whitaker will suffer on the Veterans Ballot because they will compete against each other for support. Still think Tram/Sweet Lou get in together.

A little surprised that Kent got just 15%
   48. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4633670)
kiko

but with so many other first year guys, several of worthy consideration in their own right, this tells me there were plenty of full ballots compared to other years.

think that is a positive

not understanding folks thinking something bad happened here
   49. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4633671)
Frank Thomas just said he's been tracking the gizmo!!!

Hi Frank. Please go in as an Oakland Athletic!
   50. I Am Not a Number Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4633673)
Odd that Bonds and Clemens don't have exactly the same number of votes. I would think that you'd either vote for both of them or for neither of them. Hard to imagine voting for one and not the other.
   51. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4633674)
somewhat glad about the lee smith dropoff

   52. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4633676)
8.4 players per ballot compares how to prior years?

Last time there were 8.38 votes (or more) per ballot: 1960. It was 8.36 in 1983, but that's the most in between.

In 1960, 133 different candidates received votes, the all-time record.
   53. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4633677)
No one is going to say anything about a guy with 3000+ hits and 569 HRs falling off the ballot?

OK, I'll say good riddance one more time.
   54. Wahoo Sam Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:34 PM (#4633681)
Keith Law stated on Twitter that he took Biggio off to make room for Larry walker this year. Wonder how many other voters cleared Biggio off to make room for others. But not sure why Law picked Walker, who had more time left. Maybe to ensure he wouldn't fall off.
   55. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4633683)
Given how the Cox-Maddux-Glavine Braves treated the Astros in the postseason, it seems appropriate that those three are in while Biggio and Bagwell have to wait.
   56. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4633684)
I wonder why Schilling went down so much? Competition combined with with fallout from 38pitches fiasco?

Biggio looks to get in next year. Maybe Piazza as well.
   57. JRVJ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4633685)
Keith Law is re-tweeting some interesting tweets from fellow baseball writers.

This was his original tweet:

"keithlaw ?@keithlaw 8min
If you're a HOF voter and voted for ten guys, but omitted Biggio due to lack of space, please speak up. It will help push ballot reform."

Two answers/RTs as of now:

"Rob Maaddi ?@RobMaaddi 15min
Craig Biggio missed Hall of Fame by 2 votes. I didn't vote him b/c 10 is max. He was 11 on my ballot. Time for BBWAA to change max rules?"

"Jon Becker ?@JonBecker28 7min
@KeithLaw I voted 10 and took Biggio off at last minute for Walker. Ugh! I would have voted for 14 guys this year."



   58. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4633686)
54" Keith Law isn't a voter; he hasn't been in the BBWAA for ten years. So unless his thought process is illustrative of what actual voters did, his thoughts aren't that meaningful.

EDIT: Looks like he was retweeting what voters said they did, per 57.
   59. JE (Jason) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4633687)
34, Straw meet Man.

Fine, do you care to cite all of the denigration of and/or personal attacks on Morris?
   60. winnipegwhip Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4633688)

But it's not a vote on whether Greg Maddux was perfect. Or a score on how he compares to the greatest player ever. If it were, 97.2 would a fine enough score. It's 571 separate yes-or-no votes, and the only sane answer is yes.


If I had the responsibility of voting, I may have left Maddux off my ballot. My reasoning is not because I don't think he deserves to be admitted. My philosophy towards the Hall is that I have a lesser threshold for admittance and that I would have filled out a full ballot with guys who need the vote moreso.

My ballot probably would have been:

Raines, Biggio, Morris, Trammell, Mussina, Bonds, Clemens, Kent, Piazza, Bagwell. (If I had more votes I would add McGriff next and Thomas, Glavine and Maddux if I was allowed more than ten votes.)
   61. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4633689)
So Palmeiro drops off. Sosa was close. Do people think he drops next year?


I do. I think there will be enough people deciding not to "waste" a vote on someone they think is unelectable that he'll tick below the line.
   62. JRVJ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4633691)
Another retweet from Keith Law:

"keithlaw ?@keithlaw 1min
That's three already. Just put him in. “@MikeSilvermanBB: 12.26.13 re: Biggio & 10-vote limit http://bit.ly/Jf2xCo ”

   63. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4633692)
Looks like Thomas screaming about so many players being on steroids except for him worked. Good job, Frank. You're officially excused from being tarnished by the Steroid Era. You were a massive player who hit a lot of home runs without Needing Or Using Steroids since you had such a massive size advantage.

Tactless. Tasteless. Pathetic.


I agree that Thomas was all of those things, but he had plenty of support from folks like you.

Although I agree he's a HOFer.

I just don't see how someone can go around screaming that players who finished ahead of him in MVP races were steroids users, and not be called out onto the carpet for what he is: tactless, tasteless, and pathetic.

The guy has spent the last several years screaming that so many players were on steroids except for him, so that appears to have been enough to persuade the dimwitted electorate that this massive man who played football in the steroids-fueled Auburn program and then hit 500 home runs in the majors absolutely was not on steroids, while Jeff Bagwell was. Sure.
   64. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4633695)

Looking further down the list of this year's results, you find that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and others with PED connections continue to make little progress. Bonds went from 36.3% last year to 34.7% this time, Clemens went from 37.6% to 35.4%. They'll get in eventually, but not for a while, and perhaps not ever through the BBWAA.



That's weird reasoning. Both Bonds and Clemens got fewer votes this year than last but the author thinks they'll both get in?


Because sooner or later sanity will prevail...won't it?
   65. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4633696)
Me vs Reality, 2014. Compares the actual results to the votes. I was really close on a lot of guys, but well off on 4-5.

My average margin of error: 3.5%.
   66. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:37 PM (#4633697)
not understanding folks thinking something bad happened here


Watching MLB Network, the interviews with Maddux, Glavine, and Thomas are great, and I feel great for them. I am disappointed, though, for Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Raines, et al., who should have been joining them. The most frustrating thing for me is Biggio: we saw more than 2 voters who had full ballots that did not include Biggio who had either voted for Biggio last year or explicitly said they would have voted for him with no limit.

So >75% of voters think Craig Biggio is a Hall-of-Famer; the standard for being elected is >75%; but, Biggio isn't in the Hall of Fame. That's a problem.
   67. DA Baracus Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4633701)
Watching the interviews on MLB Network and Glavine seems to have aged a lot since I last saw him.


It's one of the side effects of steroids.

Are the Braves at home while the induction ceremonies are taking place? If so, will anyone make it to the ballpark?


Nobody goes anyway. Cheaper seats for me!
   68. AROM Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4633703)
My votes next year:

Bonds
Clemens
Randy
Pedro
Curt
Mussina
Biggio
Bagwell
Piazza
Raines

Sorry Trammell.
   69. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4633704)
I think Morris, Trammell, and Whitaker will suffer on the Veterans Ballot because they will compete against each other for support. Still think Tram/Sweet Lou get in together.


Trammell won't go before the Vet's Committee until 2020. Jack and Lou become eligible in 2017, though Lou's no lock to even make the ballot.
   70. homerwannabee Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4633707)
Look, there is a simple reason why some strong candidates went down. It was a year where there were too many strong candidates. Remember the year that Ryan, Yount, and Brett went in Blyleven went down to 14.1% his second year after getting 17.5% the first year. I am sure some people thought at the time. That's basically it for Bert. No way he's getting into the HOF. I am one of the few that thinks that Bonds, and Clemens didn't really go down as much as they could have given the loaded ballot.
   71. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4633711)
This result carries the ballotgeddon scenario forward for a couple of extra years, since at least 4 non-Morris inductees were needed to clear up at least one slot (assuming Maddux, Glavine, Thomas and Mussina at least are HoF worthy).


There was only one small change to the backlog: Palmeiro was shamefully dropped off. All of the other steroids players stayed on.
   72. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4633717)
Can we stop bashing Jack Morris now? He was an excellent pitcher who had an excellent career and gave us some great moments. It's weird that his candidacy got tangled up in this weird narrative/old school vs new school/a generation of pitchers haven't been honored so we better honor the one guy we haven't let drop off the ballot juju. But there you go and thank god it's over and we can appreciate the guy again.

I'm sure there won't be any discussions about Morris, but he's still an incredibly overrated ######### who was just not that good of a pitcher. Not making the HoF doesn't change that. I can't wait to see all the dudes who vote for nobody next year as a protest against Morris not being elected.

If he goes in via the VC, it will still be a travesty.
   73. Wahoo Sam Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4633720)
#69 - true, but the players of their era re only up for debate every 3 years, so Trammell will appear on the ballot in 2020 with Morris & Sweet Lou, assuming they miss out in 2017, which is likely.

The composition of the HOFV committee will be critical. If LaRussa, Cox, or Torre or a combination are brought onto the VC, I think they can tip the scales to players like those three Tigers. All three feel they are deserving.
   74. GEB4000 Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:42 PM (#4633721)
Thomas wasn't suspected of PEDs because he aged like a normal ballplayer. He was incredible in his twenties and got old in his thirties. If Bonds followed that aging pattern, he would be in the Hall of Fame also. And if he wasn't busted for using PEDs.
   75. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4633723)
I just don't see how someone can go around screaming that players who finished ahead of him in MVP races were steroids users, and not be called out onto the carpet for what he is: tactless, tasteless, and pathetic.


So, you're opposed to people speaking frankly, which makes them tactless, tasteless and pathetic- and you said so- frankly, which makes you....
   76. hokieneer Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4633725)
Keith Law stated on Twitter that he took Biggio off to make room for Larry walker this year. Wonder how many other voters cleared Biggio off to make room for others. But not sure why Law picked Walker, who had more time left. Maybe to ensure he wouldn't fall off.


To relate this to some of the other non unanimous Maddux talk, my hypothetical vote this year would not have included Maddux. He was going to sail in anyway, and someone else was not going to vote for him for some 1st time penalty or some stupid ####. Essentially my hypothetical vote would have been better served using it for a player like Walker/Sosa to keep them on the ballot.

There was too many names on the ballot to find just 10.
   77. Dale Sams Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4633726)
Bonds
Clemens
Randy
Pedro
Curt
Mussina
Biggio
Bagwell
Piazza
Raines


Isn't Smoltz up next year?
   78. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4633727)
Last time there were 8.38 votes (or more) per ballot: 1960. It was 8.36 in 1983, but that's the most in between.

thanks chris.

so the voters tried

I think that is good.

I don't really consider myself an optimist so surprised at some of the negativity on the results
   79. JJ1986 Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4633728)
Thomas wasn't suspected of PEDs because he aged like a normal ballplayer. He was incredible in his twenties and got old in his thirties.


Unlike Piazza and Bagwell.
   80. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4633729)
Hey y'all,

Your good pal YR is currently residing a couple of hours from Cooperstown and can offer a comfy couch or bed, plus a ride to the HOF, to a few Primates seeking to attend the ceremonies this summer. I promise to spend less than half the drive ranting about Bud Selig's perfidy.
   81. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4633731)
Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and Frank Thomas is a great Hall of Fame class. Biggio and Piazza obviously deserve to be in, but they will be, probably next year. And I think it's probably a good thing not to have eight guys inducted at once, which would kind of dilute the honor.
   82. Wahoo Sam Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4633732)
Apparently, two voters gave J.T. Snow credit for this.
   83. Blastin Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4633734)
Bonds
Clemens
Randy
Pedro
Curt
Mussina
Biggio
Bagwell
Piazza
Raines


Smoltz!

Edit: Shot of rum to Dale.
   84. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4633735)

If he goes in via the VC, it will still be a travesty


He's going in and part of me get's a sick pleasure from that.
   85. cardsfanboy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4633739)
I am one of the few that thinks that Bonds, and Clemens didn't really go down as much as they could have given the loaded ballot.


Agree, with the ballot this crowded, voters had a ready made excuse to remove Clemens from their ballot.
   86. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4633740)
you don't need ballot reform. you need voter reform. you need voters who fill out the ballot. not give more space to the guys who already do what is asked. if voters won't vote you dump them.

it's like when everyone b8tches about the pace of games and meanwhile the umps aren't enforcing the existing rules

don't make more g9ddamn rules until you enforce the ones you have in place.

that doofus guy for mlb who voted for one guy or the guys with blank ballots or the guys who vote for 3 guys all that riff raff should get a warning letter from the bbwaa saying vote 10 next year or hit the bricks.

it's not hard
   87. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:48 PM (#4633742)
Thomas wasn't suspected of PEDs because he aged like a normal ballplayer.


No he absolutely did not. Normal ballplayers don't play until 40, certainly not while still hitting very well for most of their 30s.

You may be able to say that Thomas aged like a normal great hitter. But so what? Others who followed Thomas's pattern were smeared as users.

   88. Moeball Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4633746)
Craig Biggio fell just short of the 75% threshold, garnering 74.8%, two votes shy


Poor Lisa. I know she was really looking forward to going.

Maybe the BBWAA will have an epiphany next year and get Biggio and Bagwell in together...but I wouldn't count on it.

Sad. They made almost no progress on the backlog at all.

I expect next year they'll vote in Big Unit, Pedro and Biggio...and that's it. Meaning a ton of deserving players will still be left scrambling for not nearly enough votes...Piazza, Bagwell, Raines, Martinez, Trammell, Kent, McGriff, Walker, plus Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc.

Pitchers splitting votes will include newbie Smoltz, plus Schilling, Mussina & Clemens too.

Too much good stuff and a bunch are going to get screwed...again.

So how much were the drops in percentages this time between the Gizmo and the final tally?
   89. Mayor Blomberg Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4633747)
Sorta sad for Biggio, but if anyone's got the experience of crawling across the line ...
   90. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:50 PM (#4633750)
Can we stop bashing Jack Morris now? He was an excellent pitcher who had an excellent career and gave us some great moments. It's weird that his candidacy got tangled up in this weird narrative/old school vs new school/a generation of pitchers haven't been honored so we better honor the one guy we haven't let drop off the ballot juju. But there you go and thank god it's over and we can appreciate the guy again.

Thank you.

1991 wasn't all that long ago. A 10-inning shut-out in Game Seven of the World Series is a really ####### incredible achievement--almost certainly the single greatest post-season performance of all-time.
   91. JE (Jason) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4633751)
Hey y'all,

Your good pal YR is currently residing a couple of hours from Cooperstown and can offer a comfy couch or bed, plus a ride to the HOF, to a few Primates seeking to attend the ceremonies this summer. I promise to spend less than half the drive ranting about Bud Selig's perfidy.

Where's Shooty? Maybe we should schedule the Primate softball game in Central Park for the day before, then road trip that night up to Cooperstown?
   92. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4633752)

don't make more g9ddamn rules until you enforce the ones you have in place.


What rules aren't getting enforced now? The rules call for voters to vote for up to 10 people. It doesn't require, or even suggest, they vote for the max.

There's nothing that indicates voters aren't supposed to turn in a blank ballot.

If you want change, then you have to change the rules. Or, at the very least, make some public request for change.
   93. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4633753)
A 10-inning shut-out in Game Seven of the World Series is a really ####### incredible achievement--almost certainly the single greatest post-season performance of all-time.

I think don Larsen would beg to differ
   94. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4633755)
Looking further down the list of this year's results, you find that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and others with PED connections continue to make little progress. Bonds went from 36.3% last year to 34.7% this time, Clemens went from 37.6% to 35.4%. They'll get in eventually, but not for a while, and perhaps not ever through the BBWAA.

That's weird reasoning. Both Bonds and Clemens got fewer votes this year than last but the author thinks they'll both get in?


Yeah, he's delusional. Oh, and I was right.
   95. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4633756)
I'm sure someone will get to this before I'm done typing - so coke in advance - but Gizmo vs. Reality:

Overall: Gizmo at 8.86 names/ballot. Reality: 8.38.

The Gizmo was low on just four guys:
Lee Smith: 5.9% low
Don Mattingly: 3.4% low
Larry Walker: 2.0% low
Mark McGwire: 0.4% low

It was EXACTLY DEAD ON with two guys
Jack Morris: 61.5% versus 61.5%
Sammy Sosa: 7.2% versus 7.2%

The stunner is Morris - the Gizmo has ALWAYS been low on Morris.

High on everyone else:
Tim Raines: 8.2% high
Barry Bonds: 7.6% high
Curt Schilling: 7.3% high
Mike Mussina: 6.1%
Frank Thomas: 5.7%
Mike Piazza: 5.6%
Roger Clemens: 5.5%
Craig Biggio: 4.5%
Tom Glavine: 3.8%
Greg Maddux: 2.3%
Jeff Bagwell: 2.0%
Rafael Palmerio: 1.4%
Alan Trammell: 1.3%
Jeff Kent: 0.7%
Edgar Martinez: 0.3%
Fred McGriff: 0.3%
   96. JE (Jason) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4633758)
Or just play next year's softball game in nearby Albany?
   97. Blastin Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4633759)
Larsen says hi.

Edit: dammit. Coke to Harvey!
   98. JRVJ Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4633760)
86, Harvey, if the voters retweeted by Keith Law are telling the truth, Biggio is out because of the 10 candidate maximum rule. Period.

If Baggio had beeen in, you could almost argue that the system was working (yes, a lot of worthwhile candidates are still in limbo, but hey, 4 players were voted in and it's not like anybody else was directly affected by the different issues).

I predict that the WAY Biggio was kept out will mean at least two changes in the voting process: no blank ballots counted AND (more importantly), a much higher limit in candidates that can be voted for (15? 20? All players on the ballot?).
   99. Publius Publicola Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4633761)

Agree, with the ballot this crowded, voters had a ready made excuse to remove Clemens from their ballot.


I think it has to do with the nature of their candidacy. From a purely statistical POV, there's no argument- they both sail in. So if a voter is OK with steroids, then he's not going to remove them from his ballot to make room for lesser players. So, the voters who voted for Bonds and Clemens last year are going to do the same this year, regardless of how many more qualified players appear.

I would expect them to not have the same voting trajectory as other players who don't have the same issues- voters who don't care about steroids are going to continue to vote for them while voters who do care won't. So there's probably a hard line minimum and maximum their voting percentages will float between.
   100. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4633762)
If you want change, then you have to change the rules. Or, at the very least, make some public request for change.

I was speaking of the leap from a ballot reform approach versus just a modification of the voting expectation

I should have been more explicit
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