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Wednesday, August 29, 2012

Man killed following argument over Blue Jays pitching staff

Don’t tell me this was over a ‘Down goes Frasor’ comment or something.

Police say a man who died from an “alleged sucker” punch outside a Calgary bar had been in an argument over the Toronto Blue Jays’ pitching staff moments before he was struck.

Brian Ludwig, a 41-year-old father, died in hospital after the fight early Sunday morning following a charity golf tournament. Ludwig had been at the pub as part of the fundraiser.

Police say they were called to the pub at about 2:50 a.m. Sunday morning.

Ludwig was transported to hospital, where he died.

...The fight began over a disagreement about baseball, police told the Calgary paper Tuesday.

“It was in regards to pitchers in the (Toronto) Blue Jays,” said Staff Sgt. Doug Andrus of the homicide unit.

Repoz Posted: August 29, 2012 at 11:32 AM | 668 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: jays

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   501. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 17, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4238581)
Hmm, a seventh player has joined IV, so I confirmed. Looks like Gaelan will have to wait for the next one, I guess?

ETA: Flip post!


Game 1 ("BTF Diplomacy Take 2")
http://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=48277
Austria: Arnett Mead
England: RTsquared (John R)
France: KaiserBrown (scott)
Germany: Petunia
Italy: Adward
Russia: Shooty
Turkey: GregK

Game 2 ("BTF Diplomacy #3")
http://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=48112
Austria: Juneyell
England: jigokumimi
France: whitebg
Germany: Gaelan
Italy: alansternberg
Russia: Snapper
Turkey: McCoy

Game 3 ("BTF Diplomacy III")
http://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=48321
Austria: RTsquared
England: Langer Monk
France: KaiserBrown
Germany: Shooty
Italy: McCoy
Russia: Chris P
Turkey: Snapper

Game 4 ("BTF Diplomacy IV")
http://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_details.php?game_id=48769
LangerMonk - not confirmed
Snapper - not confirmed
jigokumimi - not confirmed
ArnettMead - not confirmed
McCoy - confirmed
Petunia - confirmed
RTsquared - confirmed
Power assignments to be determined.
   502. staring out the window and waiting for fenderbelly Posted: September 17, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4238582)
I'd like to play! I will absolutely play all the way through.
   503. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4238583)
Looks like we got 7 for game IV.
   504. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 09:50 PM (#4238585)
Hmm, a seventh player has joined IV, so I confirmed. Looks like Gaelan will have to wait for the next one, I guess?

Looks like I forgot that I sent RT the password when I was doing the counting. Sorry, Gaelan
   505. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4238588)
If I got to pick a nation I would pick Germany or Russia this time.
   506. Gaelan Posted: September 17, 2012 at 09:53 PM (#4238590)
Game 48092: WOW. 12 hrs per turn. I'd never make it. You retreated to London. That's hilarious. Looking back, if you had stabbed Austria for BUL that turn, you'd have the solo this turn (you're on 14 plus LON, HOL, and LVP is indefensible). In fact, it looks like you and Austria have been playing nice for long enough that you can simply sneak a solo by ordering to BUL for your 18th. You'd only have trouble if he sees it coming and bounces you.

Matter of fact, I don't believe he can stop your solo. CON-BUL, Pie-Tyr, Ion-Adr. You should be able to peel off TRI or BUL before he gets his forces in place, since he has no builds this turn, and even if somehow that goes wrong you have enough fleets up north to take one more center off Russia before they can stop you.

The real question is how you convinced England and Russia to reject all the proposed 2-way draws for you and Austria!

Game 48107: I don't think the situation is nearly as bad as you described. Russia's going to lose an assload of units and you're in better position to clean him up than E/F. Doesn't seem like they'll get more than 1 build each and they're way far from the action.

EDIT: You posted while I was writing. I don't think you should draw that game. You have the solo in the bag.


I know I should go for the solo. I just don't have the heart. That's what I meant about killing a loyal puppy. Austria has done everything I told him the whole game. Taking the victory from him would upset him more than it would give me joy.

That said, England just sent me a message and insisted I go for the solo. So maybe, I will.

Looks like I forgot that I sent RT the password when I was doing the counting. Sorry, Gaelan


Foiled.
   507. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4238599)
That said, England just sent me a message and insisted I go for the solo. So maybe, I will.

Sounds like England is ticked at somebody in the game.
   508. Gaelan Posted: September 17, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4238604)
Sounds like England is ticked at somebody in the game.


He was neutered early but I've been corresponding with him all along, encouraging him to fight and hold on against my enemies. So now he thinks I deserve it (and I do). That's why England has been rejecting the draws. I didn't even have to convince him. It was an unspoken agreement. The problem is that now that we are at the critical point I'm not cold blooded enough. Who knew?

I am surprised at how hard it is to actually do. It makes me feel like a liar and not a liar in the ordinary sense of the game, but an actual liar.

My ally really is like a loyal puppy. He's not even defending himself against the move. Meanwhile I've been covering my back every chance I get. I even tell him things like it's not that I don't trust you but it would be dumb not to. But he isn't getting the hint.

En
   509. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4238621)
How long has he been playing? It seems to me that the more trusting alliances come from people who have played a lot longer while "newer" players tend to be more guarded in their alliances.

I've been watching some games where I think more experienced players have been playing and they'll just leave a border totally undefended to an ally for years and years as if it was no big thing.

   510. Gaelan Posted: September 17, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4238638)
We've had undefended borders for much of the game because we both knew that it didn't make sense to attack someone to take a single center. However, now I'm only one center away from winning the game. So I just have to take it. Now he can bounce me (though he hasn't been) but even if he does if I follow it up with other moves I can take centers next turn. If I want the solo it's impossible for me not to get it.

Now that's probably true even if resists but so far it doesn't look like he's taking any precautions.
   511. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 17, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4238654)

I am surprised at how hard it is to actually do. It makes me feel like a liar and not a liar in the ordinary sense of the game, but an actual liar.


So, take the draw.
   512. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4238673)
Waiting on one person and we'll be on our way.
   513. Gaelan Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4238688)
So, take the draw.


I think that this is also wrong. Consistent honesty makes for reliable alliances over time. While this is a good thing for real life, it makes for a bad game. In this instance, I think that "doing the right thing" as we would ordinarily understand the term (keeping faith, telling the truth, etc.) destroys the spirit of the game which is not at all for people to form permanent alliances at the beginning and then use better tactics than the opposition.

Simply put, it's a better game if it is played as a series of temporary partnerships. Otherwise a strong early alliance can never be defeated once it reaches a certain point of midgame. Everything after that becomes a denouement. That's why DIAS is an important rule. If that was the rule then my ally would have had no choice but to try and attack me earlier before I became too strong because if our alliance conquered the whole board that would mean that I would get to 18 centers first.

In any event, the draw was proposed and I accepted. However, I also entered moves that improved my attacking position for next year, as well as a small quick stab. So if the draw is not accepted by the other players in the next three hours, I'll likely win the game in the next year.

I settled it in my mind, that he could defend himself without attacking me if he chooses. In fact, my own attacks could be interpreted in this way. Furthermore if he were to convince the third power to attack me, my position would be less unassailable than it is. Finally, the forums keep talking about the rare solo victory. I figure I should get one while I have the chance.
   514. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4238721)
I got France. Kind of funny. Once again Snapper is on my border.
   515. Langer Monk Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4238723)
I knew Italy was in my future. Mama mia.
   516. McCoy Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4238728)
Well, you asked for mozzarella, prosciutto, and Southern Italian women . . .
   517. Langer Monk Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4238734)
I did indeed. And now I've got them.

Forza!
   518. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: September 18, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4238772)
516. McCoy: What is Italian for Turkey? Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4238728)
Well, you asked for mozzarella, prosciutto, and Southern Italian women . . .
517. Langer Monk Posted: September 17, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4238734)
I did indeed. And now I've got them.

This makes me think Langer Monk is winning already.

Anyway: I'm Austria! Looking forward to, um, Austrian-izing the HECK out of this game!
   519. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 18, 2012 at 01:22 AM (#4238779)
Ooh, England! Cool.
   520. Gaelan Posted: September 18, 2012 at 02:01 AM (#4238786)
Since I'm shut out of this game I'm going to start a public game. If anyone wants to join it, let me know.
   521. Langer Monk Posted: September 18, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4238868)
This makes me think Langer Monk is winning already.


Hey now, I'm just being polite and humble and invisible down here. No need to concern yourself. These are not the droids.
   522. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 18, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4238920)
I got France. Kind of funny. Once again Snapper is on my border.

You can't get rid of me :-)
   523. RTSquared is not on the Rangers' DL...yet... Posted: September 18, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4238968)
Gaelan: I'll most probably be looking for a game in the next couple days.

And I'm Turkey in the new game. Guess that means my goose is cooked...
   524. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 18, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4239589)
Has enough time gone by yet for me to ask where we are with S04 orders in Take 2? It's been like 30 hours since the last movement phase... Should I just relax?
   525. Gaelan Posted: September 19, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4240113)
Austria has autosurrendered in Game III. Is Petunia still able to take over? If not, can someone else? Somehow Austria still has three centers and is very much still in the game. Does anyone remember the password? It's probably back a few pages or so.
   526. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 19, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4240126)
Did you email Petunia, Gaelan?
   527. Gaelan Posted: September 19, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4240150)
Just did.
   528. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 19, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4240162)
Sorry, I got jumpy and joined IV, so I'm full up. I've been considering ponying up the 12 euros to premiumize, so this could be the motivation I needed to do that. If nobody else steps up to take the position by the end of the day, I'll grab it. Sorry to make you guys wait longer.
   529. Langer Monk Posted: September 19, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4240205)
I jumped in. Am I supposed to play it out, or just set holds?
   530. Gaelan Posted: September 19, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4240209)
Play it out.
   531. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 19, 2012 at 02:17 PM (#4240213)
Play it out! I'm sad to have missed that one. If nothing else, the negotiations with Italy should be hilarious.
   532. Langer Monk Posted: September 19, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4240214)
Roger Wilco. I'll have time to see what the hell is going on tonight.
   533. RTSquared is not on the Rangers' DL...yet... Posted: September 19, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4240286)
Austria has autosurrendered in Game III. Is Petunia still able to take over? If not, can someone else? Somehow Austria still has three centers and is very much still in the game. Does anyone remember the password? It's probably back a few pages or so.

I did what?!

Oh...you mean Game 3, not Game III.
   534. McCoy Posted: September 20, 2012 at 12:57 AM (#4240776)
Italy has lived a glorious life but will be dead or useless by the end of 05. It was fun while it lasted.
   535. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 20, 2012 at 07:20 AM (#4240839)
Did you guys see some of those World War games they've created? Holy nerdliness! It must take a lifetime to play one of those.
   536. Langer Monk Posted: September 21, 2012 at 12:22 PM (#4242114)
Did you guys see some of those World War games they've created?


I haven't - which ones do you you mean?

Game III has reached denouement, I believe.
   537. McCoy Posted: September 21, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4242243)
Game III has reached denouement, I believe.

For a few nations sure, but there is going to have to be a reorganization once those three nations are vanquished.
   538. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 21, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4242244)
Really? I'd say reaching the endgame, but not the ending. There's a lot of excitement left as far as I can tell from the outside.
   539. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 21, 2012 at 03:06 PM (#4242316)
Game III is going to come down to England/Germany and maybe Turkey.

And there isn't much excitement, outside of perhaps guessing when England/Germany stab each other. If they wanted, they'd easily have a joint victory.
   540. McCoy Posted: September 21, 2012 at 09:19 PM (#4242684)
Game III is moving right along. Did we just do a spring order phase in less than 12 hours?
   541. Gaelan Posted: September 21, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4242735)
There is no such thing as a joint victory. Either they have a three way draw or someone gets eighteen centers. If you are playing by the rules a joint victory or two way draw is very rare. I won't comment on this game other than to say a two way draw can't happen the board is setup.

I also agree with Petunia, this is a very interesting part of the game.
   542. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 22, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4243274)
If you are playing by the rules a joint victory or two way draw is very rare.

You managed it!

I'm coming up on being faced with a very similar situation to yours. DIAS ranked game. I drew Austria. We demolished Turkey, Russia antagonized me continuously. France supported me to Munich then took it from me; Germany had issued mostly bizarre orders til he quit, we found a replacement for his 1-center position (Denmark!) for S05 after he was finally auto-surrendered.

France stabbed England (netting Belgium) just before the year I had decided to make Russia pay. In F05 I took 3 centers off Russia while leaving myself completely exposed to a stab from my Italian ally, who was playing both sides with me and France (which involved a fake NMR for S05). France and I were both counting on Italy's loyalty that turn, and whoever he chose would have a clear path to a solo; the other would be effectively crippled.

Italy chose to stick with me in a situation where I feel I'd have been like 60/40 to go the other way and hook up with France. Afterwards he told me that he expects us to fight together til we draw 2 ways, but that he wouldn't blame me if I went for the solo. I'm going to feel really mean if I do go for it.

Anyway, yeah. [539] describes an exciting game IMO.
   543. McCoy Posted: September 23, 2012 at 04:59 AM (#4243441)
FYI, Diplomacy is a game. Don't take it so seriously. When you screw up just say oh well.
   544. Gaelan Posted: September 24, 2012 at 07:00 PM (#4244627)
It looks like the two longer running games have lost about half their participants. I just had a game finish so I'm going to start another BTF game for those who'd like to start a new game. I got locked out of the last one so I figure if I start it myself I know I'll get a spot.

Stay tuned.
   545. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:44 AM (#4244985)
It looks like the two longer running games have lost about half their participants. I just had a game finish so I'm going to start another BTF game for those who'd like to start a new game. I got locked out of the last one so I figure if I start it myself I know I'll get a spot.

Stay tuned.


If we can finish Game III soon, I'll join. But right now I'm maxed at 3 games.
   546. RTSquared is not on the Rangers' DL...yet... Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4244995)
I think I said that I'd be down for another game when it got started because I was about to die...

Well, I died...but in a different game than I anticipated. Man, I suck at this Diplomacy thing...
   547. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: September 25, 2012 at 07:49 PM (#4245686)
Game 3 is moving unbearably slowly. I'd be open to joining another.
   548. Gaelan Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:27 PM (#4245757)
Ok, I'll start a new game. It's BTF V, game # 49099, the password is btf. Two days between turns, 24 hours for builds and retreats, no turns processed on weekends. It's a DIAS game. Please don't join unless you are willing to play until the end.


It may take a few days to get a full roster.
   549. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:17 AM (#4245985)
Game III should be just about over. I should be able to join V later today
   550. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:46 AM (#4246001)
Game III was funny. I think I inadvertently changed the direction of the game in the first year because I thought France and Russia were aligned against England. Turns out they weren't...Sorry Russia! I'm not sure what England and France were saying to each other, but I never thought I was allied with France so I was all for it when England invaded. Also, it was the most hilarious invasion ever so it had that going for it, too. That was really England's game and I just went along for the ride.
   551. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:12 AM (#4246035)
Some issues have popped up that will keep me away from internet devices that are not smartphones for an indefinite amount of time. The software for the game is not capable of allowing orders to be carried out via smartphone. Thus I had to drop out of the game. If that is bad form so be it.

I think a three way tie in which none of the drawers even bother to try and win the game is bad form but to each his own.
   552. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4246041)
Some issues have popped up that will keep me away from internet devices that are not smartphones for an indefinite amount of time. The software for the game is not capable of allowing orders to be carried out via smartphone. Thus I had to drop out of the game. If that is bad form so be it.

If you have technical difficulties, then it's not bad form, and I apologize. It would be nice to send a message in game to that effect.
   553. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4246045)
OK, I joined Game V
   554. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4246050)
I think a three way tie in which none of the drawers even bother to try and win the game is bad form but to each his own.

Meh. It was a good reintroductory experience. I'm happy with it.
   555. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4246051)
2 more spots open in Game V. Please oh please let me not border Gaelan...

   556. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4246097)
It's a DIAS game

BTW, what does this mean?
   557. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4246109)
BTW, what does this mean?

Draws must include all survivors.
   558. Gaelan Posted: September 26, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4246178)
I think a three way tie in which none of the drawers even bother to try and win the game is bad form but to each his own.


That particular game was a tricky situation. Since the three powers were all about the same strength if anyone indicated that they wanted to go for the solo that would almost assuredly align the other two powers against him, thus making a solo impossible. This means that no single player could unilaterally continue the game. The only way it could have happened if two of the powers agreed to attack the third.

2 more spots open in Game V. Please oh please let me not border Gaelan.


From what I can tell watching the games, you are the dangerous one.

Some issues have popped up that will keep me away from internet devices that are not smartphones for an indefinite amount of time. The software for the game is not capable of allowing orders to be carried out via smartphone. Thus I had to drop out of the game.


I can enter moves from a tablet (I believe). Are smartphones different? Are you still in game #3?
   559. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4246192)
First part: So? The point of the game is to be the last person standing not to remove 4 other players from the game and then call it a day.

Last part: From my android I can only finalize orders and according to the forum they are working on software for smartphones. As of right now I am still in game 3 since it is a slower paced game. If it speeds up and my issues are still going then I'll probably have to drop out. But hopefully within a week the issues will die down.
   560. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4246194)
Yeah, the three way draw is a bit lame.

I've joined game V. Time to be less trusting, it's been my downfall in both games I've played so far.
   561. Gaelan Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4246196)
I agree. However, there was a stalemate situation there. There was no real way to attack without the cooperation of another.
   562. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4246202)
I agree. However, there was a stalemate situation there. There was no real way to attack without the cooperation of another.

Yes, and no one wants to be the first one to suggest breaking the threesome, b/c you're afraid the other 2 will turn on you.

I felt like it was a "mexican stand-off". No one wanted to start the shooting.
   563. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4246210)
Nonsense. The point of the game is to be the last man standing. The game's goal isn't to not lose but to win. Which means you have to take chances and you have to make deals. So what if two other players might turn on you? Do you not roll the dice in monopoly because you might land on someone's hotel?

The point of the game is that it is really hard for one power to win and to do so you need to forge alliances and also break them at times. The game also has a built in handicapper that makes it more and more difficult to get those final centers as more and more powers are vanquished. To draw after knocking out 4 powers is to only play half the game and not really fair to all the players who spent time in the game.
   564. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4246211)
Yes, and no one wants to be the first one to suggest breaking the threesome

Hells no! Amirite, fellas?
   565. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4246214)
One more opening for game V.
   566. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4246223)
Well, anyway we need a player to replace McCoy in IV. 4-center France (about to cash Spain for 5) in F02. It's not... the greatest position, diplomatically. But we'd really appreciate someone to take it over.

EDIT: Spot filled. Thank you Shooty!!
   567. Gaelan Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4246225)
Nonsense. The point of the game is to be the last man standing. The game's goal isn't to not lose but to win. Which means you have to take chances and you have to make deals. So what if two other players might turn on you? Do you not roll the dice in monopoly because you might land on someone's hotel?


I agree with this. I just think that it is difficult to unilaterally break the standoff without compromising your own position. That said, the vulnerable party there was Germany, so it would have been a reasonable move for either Turkey or England to push harder.
   568. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4246227)
Well, anyway we need a player to replace McCoy in IV. 4-center France (about to cash Spain for 5) in F02. It's not... the greatest position, diplomatically. But we'd really appreciate someone to take it over.

What are the details? I can do it.
   569. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4246230)
The point of the game is that it is really hard for one power to win and to do so you need to forge alliances and also break them at times. The game also has a built in handicapper that makes it more and more difficult to get those final centers as more and more powers are vanquished. To draw after knocking out 4 powers is to only play half the game and not really fair to all the players who spent time in the game.

Initially I felt this way as well, then I looked at the game. I actually typed out a long-ass essay about why certain alignments wouldn't work, rewrote it once or twice when I changed my mind, then gave it up.

Basically if I were in the game I'd have wanted to play another few years to see if anything could be done, but ultimately I don't think any of the 2v1 options there would have worked for anybody.

What are the details? I can do it.

BBTF email on its way. Thanks!
   570. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4246240)
re 569 A "stalemate" ensued because the players played like they were playing for a draw instead of winning the game. Once you accept a draw as a goal you'll find that you'll inevitably run into a stalemate.
   571. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4246243)
After taking over France for McCoy, all I know is I'm not taking any Diplomacy advice from him...
   572. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4246251)
That's fine. Keep playing for draws.
   573. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4246255)
That's fine. Keep playing for draws.

ShootyBabbitt (WINNER)
   574. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4246260)
I don't really care what a computer program declares you. The point of the game is to win the game outright not quit when it gets hard and you might lose if you actually tried to win. Racking up centers in a two person alliance is easy.
   575. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4246262)
ShootyBabbitt (WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER)
   576. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4246263)
It's a game. I believe anyone can play it anyway they want: keep your word/break your word, go for domination/just want to survive.

Whatever floats your boat.

I think that makes it more interesting, and more like real life. Some countries are aggressive, other just want BOP, other just want to survive.
   577. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4246265)
I don't really care what a computer program declares you. The point of the game is to win the game outright not quit when it gets hard and you might lose if you actually tried to win. Racking up centers in a two person alliance is easy.

Isn't the responsibility then on the other players to gang up on the two?
   578. Gaelan Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4246271)
I've been checking out the forums and this is a long running debate there. My view is that McCoy is clearly right in general and the game is better if it is played that way. However, in practice there are situations in which prudence might call for some other decision.
   579. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4246277)
I've been checking out the forums and this is a long running debate there. My view is that McCoy is clearly right in general and the game is better if it is played that way. However, in practice there are situations in which prudence might call for some other decision.

It's just one game. It may be the only 3 way draw I'm ever part of. Usually, for a guy like me, I'd need a million dollars to make a threesome happen.
   580. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4246289)
re 577. Yes and you didn't do that. I did try to break up alliances diplomatically. I could not do it militarily because France pulled an all out attack on me.

re 578 Yes it is possible to get a stalemate in which two sides duke it out for years to no avail. But that wasn't the situation in the game. The three nations never even tried to win the game outright and called it quits without even attempting to win the game. As I said before if you go into the game with the outlook that you'll accept a draw or are looking for the draw with an alliance partner then more often than not you'll find yourself drawing.

   581. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4246297)
[578] is correct and sums up what I was trying to say in [569]. That game couldn't have ended other than it did outside of a 2-man Carebear alliance that would have disgusted McCoy even more than the actual result did.
   582. Langer Monk Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4246300)
Basically if I were in the game I'd have wanted to play another few years to see if anything could be done, but ultimately I don't think any of the 2v1 options there would have worked for anybody.


As England I did consider that, but two things stopped me - I didn't see a long term solution, just a standoff unless someone quit or made a mistake, and because it was the first game. As Shooty says, I doubt there will be a set of circumstances similarly down the line. I did come close a couple times to invading Germany too, but he generally was covered enough to make any advances shortlived, in my amatuer opinion.

Anyways, if it's considered bad form, then okay. It wasn't pre-planned, it really just developed. At least in part because I think all three of us are less experienced.
   583. Langer Monk Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4246301)
Oh, and I jumped into Game V and confirmed. I intended to talk more about Game III later if there is still interest.
   584. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4246304)
re 581. Again the game ended the way it did because you never went into the game with victory in mind or at the very least every seriously considered trying to win the game outright. Thus your moves set you up for a stalemate. Alliances don't bother me it is alliances that are created with the intent of having a draw that annoy me.
   585. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4246309)
re 581. Again the game ended the way it did because you never went into the game with victory in mind

France doesn't think so!
   586. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4246311)
Well, I wasn't in that game, and I didn't closely review the order history, so I have no idea about any of that. I agree that alliances created and kept throughout the game, with the intention (and execution) from start to finish of never trying for a solo if a chance presents itself is counter to the way that I typically play the game.

But no single approach always works. And I don't see a path to a solo for any of the three players in that game. Not from where I sit, anyway.
   587. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4246321)
Well, I wasn't in that game, and I didn't closely review the order history, so I have no idea about any of that. I agree that alliances created and kept throughout the game, with the intention (and execution) from start to finish of never trying for a solo if a chance presents itself is counter to the way that I typically play the game.

The 3-way Alliance definitely was NOT planned from the beginning. I (Turkey) was allied with Russia initially, until they fell apart. Then I stumbled around alone for a while, and only made friends with Germany late.
   588. Langer Monk Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4246323)
Short version of Game III inside info: France arranged the Triple Alliance with England and Germany. Once Germany bounced Russia from Sweden, leaving Russia with 4 armies after 1901, we worked together to finish off the Russian armies in the north. All this time, we just were silent with France, until at Italy's begging, and the gaping opening France provided, England walked into Paris. Germany got Marseilles for the support, as England took Iberia (slowly). England was deterred actually by Italy's fleet bouncing from MAO. At that point, Germany wanted Austrian land and so we arranged something Turkey. It took me way longer than it should have to get around into the Mediterranean, so they did the bulk of work to take Austria and Italy. I kept my eye on Germany's backside, as it were, and maybe I was too cautious, but I didn't invade.
   589. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4246330)
The 3-way Alliance definitely was NOT planned from the beginning. I (Turkey) was allied with Russia initially, until they fell apart. Then I stumbled around alone for a while, and only made friends with Germany late.

Yeah, Turkey came into it late. In hindsight, we probably didn't need Turkey but it at the time it seemed adding Turkey to create an overwhelming force made a lot of sense.
   590. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4246335)
I didn't say a 3 way alliance with turkey was planned from the beginning. I did think at the time that Germany, France, and England had entered into an agreement
   591. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4246338)
Short version of Game III inside info: France arranged the Triple Alliance with England and Germany. Once Germany bounced Russia from Sweden, leaving Russia with 4 armies after 1901, we worked together to finish off the Russian armies in the north. All this time, we just were silent with France, until at Italy's begging, and the gaping opening France provided, England walked into Paris.

The funny thing is is that I never thought I had a very strong agreement with France because they moved into Burgundy when I asked them not to. When they opened themselves up to attack I was more than happy to encourage England to do so.
   592. Gaelan Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4246353)
Awaiting only one more confirmation for BTF V. That was fast.

I think this goes without saying but each game needs to be played as an isolated event. No carrying over grudges (or friendships) from past games.
   593. McCoy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4246360)
I don't know if i can do good recap on a Droid but I'll give it a go.

Initially i planned for a lepanto but Austria's Hemming and hawing with it's fleet nixed that idea. I then teamed up with turkey and Russia to carve up austria but france's all out attack on me nixed that idea. At that point my main goal was to get the alliance to crumble have France turn away. Despite the obvious risks and warnings France carried on it's attack and caused his own destruction. In hindsight i should have repelled the invasion of north africa like i originally planned but i was worried that a French army in iberia we keep the alliance intact.
   594. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4246370)
I think this goes without saying but each game needs to be played as an isolated event. No carrying over grudges (or friendships) from past games.

I have trouble keeping track of who's who. I just call everyone by their country name. My stupidity makes keeping grudges impossible.
   595. Langer Monk Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4246374)
The funny thing is is that I never thought I had a very strong agreement with France because they moved into Burgundy when I asked them not to. When they opened themselves up to attack I was more than happy to encourage England to do so.


Yes, and we thought Italy leaving Piedmont open made it more likely France was working with Italy and would attack Germany. We were very happy to let him instead focus on Italy, and then stab him in the back.
   596. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4246386)
I didn't say a 3 way alliance with turkey was planned from the beginning. I did think at the time that Germany, France, and England had entered into an agreement

What would be wrong with that?

I think this goes without saying but each game needs to be played as an isolated event. No carrying over grudges (or friendships) from past games.

Agree 100%. It's going to be a fine line, once we've all played a few games with each other, as it's generally perceived as appropriate to take into account your fellow players' tendencies and styles and so forth, while "I won't ally with you because you stabbed me in that one game" is unacceptable. We're all on the honor system here.
   597. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4246389)
I think this goes without saying but each game needs to be played as an isolated event. No carrying over grudges (or friendships) from past games.



Oh, I'm going to remember who backstabbed me. I'm not going to carry a grudge, but people who've shown they can't be trusted don't get a free pass because it's a new game.
   598. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4246390)
What would be wrong with that?


My goal WAS to try a Western Triple, since I'd never done it before. I don't think I'll be trying it again in the future.

edit: I also should add that the goal wasn't a three way draw, but that we wouldn't turn on each other until we'd disposed of the others. Clearly my mistake, as it was my mistake in game 1 to have the same attitude about my alliance with Germany to work together until we finished off England. I've been a sap the past two games, which is frustrating.

I'd also add that it's sheer self serving pap for Shooty to say that his agreement with me wasn't strong. Considering first that I told him my orders, and the orders for a standard Western Triple opening, and considering also how open I left myself to him and England. I mean, clearly I thought it was a strong relationship. Especially given how many warning signs I ignored that England/Germany were going to stab me given how they made their movements. England's army to Belgium should have made me just ditch the alliances, but given how fast Russia fell apart I was probably screwed anyways. So, chalk that one up for Le France being oblivious and dumb.
   599. Langer Monk Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4246392)
My goal WAS to try a Western Triple, since I'd never done it before. I don't think I'll be trying it again in the future.


I did feel some remorse crossing the Channel like that, but it was fleeting.
   600. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4246395)
flip!
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