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Tuesday, March 12, 2013

Manuel, Dubee express concern with Halladay’s outing

No Halladay heart syndrome at least.

In spring training, it is possible for a pitcher to finish with an ugly line that does not match the performance as it appeared to the naked eye. That was not the case with Roy Halladay’s outing against the Tigers, which looked every bit unpretty as the seven runs he allowed in 2 2/3 innings. Afterward, you could see the concern on Charlie Manuel’s face.

“Yeah, it concerns me,” the manager said. “But at the same time, I been in the game long enough to know that if there’s nothing wrong with him, you keep working with him. If he’s healthy and well and there’s nothing wrong with him, then he’s gotta get stretched out and everything.”

Halladay says there is nothing wrong with him. He said he has been feeling lethargic, that his new workout program and the two bullpen sessions he threw prior to today’s start were probably to blame. He is frustrated with his cutter, which he has not been able to locate to the non-glove side of the plate (outside to lefties). But he says he is happy that he does not feel physically compromised like he did last spring, when his body sent him spiraling downward into the most frustrating regular season of his career.

...Pitching coach Rich Dubee probably summed up organizational sentiment best when he was asked whether he thought Halladay could get back to the level he was at during his first two seasons in Philadelphia.

“I don’t know where he is going to get back to,” Dubee said. “I don’t. Who does? I don’t have a crystal ball, but I know that his work ethic is still there, his desire is still there, so I’ll take my chances.”

Repoz Posted: March 12, 2013 at 08:08 PM | 11 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: phillies

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   1. Justin T drives a crooked hoss Posted: March 12, 2013 at 08:48 PM (#4387308)
Has Halladay said he feels like last season was the most frustrating of his career? Because, while it was frustrating, I think 2000 is the standard bearer if we're just discussing amongst ourselves.
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: March 12, 2013 at 10:25 PM (#4387382)

wow, it took all of one post for me to have to buy someone a coke!

   3. John Northey Posted: March 12, 2013 at 10:50 PM (#4387389)
Sheesh - if this is what the Phillies are reduced to then it is time for smart GM's to pounce. Before this game Halladay had pitched in 3 games, 8 1/3 IP, allowing 2 runs on 2 BB 7 SO and 1 HR. Today was what is called 'one of those days'. 4 BB, 2 SO, 2 HR 7 runs in 2 2/3 IP. Basically anything that could go wrong did. This is a HOF pitcher coming off his 2nd ever season sub 115 for ERA+ (3rd under 120). Last year his K/9 was higher than his career average, his BB/9 was off his career by 0.2, and HR by 0.2. If they want to dump him I'm sure 29 other clubs would be quite happy to take him off their hands.

The way Manuel & Dubee are talking you'd think Halladay was a washed up vet or something who hasn't been competitive in a long time. This is the guy who led the NL in ERA+ in 2011 and last year was the first since 2005 that he didn't get Cy Young votes. Ah well, whatever.
   4. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: March 13, 2013 at 02:22 AM (#4387441)
In fairness, he apparently topped out at mid-80s with his fastball. Considering he's thrown harder than that already this isn't a "he'll get his velocity back as he gets stretched out." This was an unexplained 6 mph dip from one start to the next, which is a little worrisome. That said, Doc has 1) earned the benefit of a doubt and 2) earned the right for his GM and pitching coach not to point a spotlight on him whenever he has a bad day.
   5. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: March 13, 2013 at 04:58 AM (#4387451)
The problem is that his velocity has been done all spring. Even in those earlier starts, his average velocity is down about 5 mph. No need to panic, but certainly a concern to be consistently losing mph
   6. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 13, 2013 at 08:18 AM (#4387479)
Halladay says there is nothing wrong with him


Didn't he say that last year too, at least early on? I hope Roy can reestablish himself as an AS pitcher and keep putting up ERAs in the 2.50-3.00 range on the way to 260 or so wins , but if he can't, I'd sooner see him retire than scuffle along for a few more years. Selfish of me I know.
   7. Greg K Posted: March 13, 2013 at 08:29 AM (#4387481)

Didn't he say that last year too, at least early on? I hope Roy can reestablish himself as an AS pitcher and keep putting up ERAs in the 2.50-3.00 range on the way to 260 or so wins , but if he can't, I'd sooner see him retire than scuffle along for a few more years. Selfish of me I know.

A friend of mine who just started watching baseball last year asked me the other day "so is this Roy Halladay any good? He gets talked about like he's a star, but he seemed pretty meh".

It's a sad world where even one person thinks 2012 is representative of Roy Halladay: Baseballer.
   8. Natty Fan Posted: March 13, 2013 at 08:39 AM (#4387487)
Was it just yesterday's performance that renewed concerns about Halladay's arm? The reports from his exhibition against the Nats last week indicated that he looked good. I understand concerns based on last year, but it seems a bit much to raise a warning over a "dead arm" start in mid-March.
   9. Greg Pope Posted: March 13, 2013 at 09:09 AM (#4387501)
I understand concerns based on last year, but it seems a bit much to raise a warning over a "dead arm" start in mid-March

So, what's the "science" behind the dead arm concept? It seems like a real thing since every year there's some number of starters that have reduced velocity for a short period of time. Sometimes it's in Spring Training, sometimes in April. But it certainly doesn't seem to happen to everyone, or at least it's not reported.

Why does it happen?
   10. Russ Posted: March 13, 2013 at 09:17 AM (#4387506)

Why does it happen?


I'm not a real doctor, but my PhD in statistics combined with my collaboration with real sports medicine researchers would lead me to believe that it has to with scar tissue. If the scar tissue accumulates around the joint/ligaments, it could restrict motion in imperceptible ways, which would lead to changes in throwing motion that would cause a reduction in velocity.

I would conjecture that the process goes:

1. Off-season rest allows for scar tissue to float around, so at the beginning of ST there is no dead arm.
2. Throwing regularly again during ST causes scar tissue to accumulate (or new scar tissue to form) around the joints/ligaments, restricting motion which causes a drop in velocity.
3. Throwing even more regularly breaks up the scar tissue that had accumulated, which unrestricts the motion causing the subsequent rise in velocity.

But I really have no idea what I'm talking about, so YMMV.
   11. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: March 13, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4387734)
Was it just yesterday's performance that renewed concerns about Halladay's arm? The reports from his exhibition against the Nats last week indicated that he looked good. I understand concerns based on last year, but it seems a bit much to raise a warning over a "dead arm" start in mid-March.


No, the MASH report over at Fangraphs has tracked his pitch velocity. I'm not sure I buy their position, but he's been listed on their MASH report for the last few starts because of lowered velocity. While the states have been fine, it's in 8 IP against mixed competition.

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