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Thursday, May 10, 2018

Many Twins players embrace extra-innings rules changes, but not what’s happening in the minors

“Doesn’t seem fair,” said Duffey, the Twins righthander who is currently back at Class AAA. “Doesn’t seem like baseball.”

That’s a common complaint as minor league baseball implements the experimental rules, designed to address what some consider a scourge and others view as a blessing: extra innings.

Interesting to see some feedback on the recent changes.

Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 10, 2018 at 03:39 PM | 22 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: extra innings, general, minnesota twins, minor leagues, rule changes, rules, twins

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   1. Rusty Priske Posted: May 11, 2018 at 11:29 AM (#5670715)
Hey, I have a question about these extra-innings rules... if that runner who started on 2nd scores, who is charged with the run?

Normally if a pitcher comes into a game with a runner on base, if they score the run is credited to the pitcher who allowed them to reach base. It seems unfair to charge it to anybody... but that also seems odd to not charge it to anybody.

Also, I know wins and losses are not the most important stat, but it seems unfair to charge a pitcher with a loss when the winning run did not originate with him.

(There are LOTS of reasons to dislike this rule, but I I hadn't seen mention of this one.)
   2. SoSH U at work Posted: May 11, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5670721)
I don't think it's charged to anyone, which is a nice way to artificially suppress ERA for relief pitchers.
   3. bunyon Posted: May 11, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5670769)
I'd rather see the experiment with allowing ties in MiLB games.
   4. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 11, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5670770)
Who complains about extra innings? Get rid of the dawdling between pitches, thats what people want.
   5. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 11, 2018 at 12:23 PM (#5670794)
Hey, I have a question about these extra-innings rules... if that runner who started on 2nd scores, who is charged with the run?


It's an unearned run - there's an error assigned to put him on second, but it isn't charged to any particular fielder.
   6. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 11, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5670928)
I'd rather see the experiment with allowing ties in MiLB games.


That would probably work fine in the minors, where no one but ~100 diehards in each city really cares who wins, but they're not bothering with it because it would never, ever be tolerated by fans in the majors.

   7. McCoy Posted: May 11, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5670929)
Eh, ties happen in other sports and for the most part nobody cares.
   8. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 11, 2018 at 03:03 PM (#5670939)
The other problem with allowing ties is the standings. Suppose, in a 50 game season, the top two teams have the following records:

Archers 32-15-3
Bombers 31-14-5

Which team is first in the standings?

I think most Americans would say treat the ties as non-events and the team with the higher winning percentage gets first place. In this case that would be the Bombers, .688 to .680. But there WOULD be some people who vehemently believe the team with the most wins should get first place, and there would be endless tiresome arguments about it.

Soccer (and, outside North America, hockey), a sport with nearly as many ties as non-ties, has long used a points system to account for this in the standings. In most soccer leagues it's 3 points for a win, 1 for a tie, 0 for a loss. By this system, in the example above, the Archers would win, 99 points to 98.

You might say "who cares, it's just the minors anyway," but I think it would be enough of a PR headache that MLB doesn't really want to go there. And I would add that it would feel viscerally wrong to me to see baseball standings that look like hockey standings--and I don't really feel strongly about it. A lot of people would get pretty angry, I imagine.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: May 11, 2018 at 03:24 PM (#5670958)
I think most Americans would say treat the ties as non-events and the team with the higher winning percentage gets first place. In this case that would be the Bombers, .688 to .680. But there WOULD be some people who vehemently believe the team with the most wins should get first place, and there would be endless tiresome arguments about it.


Typically when figuring winning percentage when ties are a possible outcome (such as the NFL), ties are treated as .5 of a win. In that case, the above teams would still finish tied.

   10. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 11, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5670969)
which is a nice way to artificially suppress ERA for relief pitchers.

...much like all the other rules around assigning earned runs.
   11. BDC Posted: May 11, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5670975)
ties happen in other sports and for the most part nobody cares

And baseball ties used to be common enough in the major leagues, but except for the odd Merkle game or World Series controversy, nobody cared because they were usually replayed. Clearly, though, you couldn't replay every baseball game that ended in a tie after nine – thus the obvious (and lots-of-fun) expedient of playing a few extra innings now and then.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 11, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5670976)
And baseball ties used to be common enough in the major leagues, but except for the odd Merkle game or World Series controversy, nobody cared because they were usually replayed. Clearly, though, you couldn't replay every baseball game that ended in a tie after nine – thus the obvious (and lots-of-fun) expedient of playing a few extra innings now and then.

Right, but a tie after 11 innings would minimize the impact.
   13. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: May 11, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5670986)
Eh, ties happen in other sports and for the most part nobody cares.


Lesser sports.
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: May 11, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5670988)
...much like all the other rules around assigning earned runs.


Well this will also suppress RA, but no one cares about that so I didn't mention it.

Edit: If it's an UER charged to the pitcher, this will have the dual effect of artificially suppressing ERA and, even more significantly artificially inflating RA.
   15. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 11, 2018 at 04:07 PM (#5670993)
Right, but a tie after 11 innings would minimize the impact.
It looks like there were 381 MLB games of 12+ innings from 2012-2017. 63.5 per season, so a team can expect to play four (well, 4.2333) of them a year.

I'm fairly certain that the world won't end if teams have 4 ties a year. It seems especially obvious that it wouldn't be a problem in the minors. Much better 4 or 5 ties than ridiculous free base runner rules.
   16. DavidFoss Posted: May 11, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5670994)
Clearly, though, you couldn't replay every baseball game that ended in a tie after nine

If I recall correctly, many of the old ties were from before the era of stadium lights. They had no choice but to stop play and try again later. That sometimes led to a ton of September double-headers. My one stint as a retrosheet volunteer was digitizing scorebooks for the 1936 Phillies. They played 15 double-headers in the last 39 games.

Are there more extra-inning games than usual now, or are people just complaining more because bullpens are so overworked these days? It used to be, you just kept going deeper into the bullpen until someone's arm got tired enough that they started throwing meatballs and runs started scoring. I guess no one wants to do that anymore? Or perhaps managers make too many PH/PR moves in the 9th and 10th and the lineup is stuck with too many bad hitters? TFA says players are annoyed because a 14-inning game usually means that someone in the bullpen has to go to the minors so that a fresh arm can be called up. I don't remember that being a problem in 1985.

As far as making it easier for runs to score to accelerate the end-game, I'd favor removing a fielder over spotting a runner on second.
   17. SoSH U at work Posted: May 11, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5670995)

Eh, ties happen in other sports and for the most part nobody cares.


I don't think that's true, at least in this country. CFB and hockey once had a lot of ties, but the NCAA and NHL decided fans didn't want that. Football's the only NA sport that still has them, and they're very rare in the NFL (but probably necessary to prevent carnage).

   18. Sweatpants Posted: May 11, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5671064)
Lesser sports.
Aren't you the site's biggest boxing fan?
   19. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: May 11, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5671065)
Boxing is more in the sports-entertainment category, with WWE, what with the predetermined outcomes and all.
   20. bunyon Posted: May 12, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5671193)
To be clear: I wasn’t advocating ties. I’d simply prefer them, greatly, to the man on 2nd BS.

If you don’t want extra innings don’t have extra innings.
   21. Mike Emeigh Posted: May 12, 2018 at 02:34 PM (#5671279)
There have been 59 extra inning games so far in 2018, per BB-Ref (which seems to me to be a lot). Of those, 12 were still tied after 12 innings.

In 2017 there were 182 extra-inning games, of which 24 were still tied after 12 innings.
In 2016 there were 185 extra-inning games, of which 32 were still tied after 12 innings.

So I'm thinking that if MLB were to put in a rule that said that any game that is tied after 12 innings during the season goes into the books as a tie - which is the rule in Japan during the regular season - it would impact about 1 or 2 games per team per year.

-- MWE

EDIT: In NPB in 2017 there were 16 ties, in a shorter season than MLB's.
   22. Leroy Kincaid Posted: May 13, 2018 at 06:55 AM (#5671453)
If you don’t want extra innings don’t have extra innings.


Right. In the bottom of the 9th, if the game is tied the pitching team should issue four consecutive intentional walks. And if the visiting team is leading, the home batters should strike out on purpose three times in a row.

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