Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Tuesday, January 06, 2009
Dan Plesac—No, though if there were a prize for having the best ERA+ from 1986 to 1989 among all pitchers with at least 275 innings pitched he would have won it. Of course if there were such a prize the person handing it out would be too busy getting punched in the face to actually award it. But it’s hardly nothing. Plesac’s broadcast work in Chicago was notable for his high coming off as a nice guy:saying interesting things ratio; I understand he’s now with the MLB Network but I wouldn’t know as the demonic figures who run Comcast refuse for some reason to make it available in my house.
Tim Raines—Yes, of course. I doubt it’s an original point, but Raines is one of the Hall candidates who suffers most from circumstances entirely out of his control. I think what’s hurt his case more than anything is that if you look over his Baseball Reference page, it looks as if he broke in as a part timer in 1981 at 21, had a nice five year run, began to break down, and then finished out his career as a part-timer. This just isn’t true. 1981 was a strike year, in which his 88 games were the equivalent of 136; in 1987 he missed the first month of the year, and quite possibly an MVP award, due to collusion; in the 1994 and 1995 strike years he wasn’t at the top of his game, but he was a full-timer, playing the equivalent of 149 and 144 games.
It isn’t just that the strikes and collusion cost him nearly a full season of playing time, but that they shape the statistical narrative of his career so much. Of course Raines also spent his prime in a pitcher’s park in Canada in an era of moderate offense, played left field not because he couldn’t handle center but because the Montreal Expos had a star incumbent at the position, and was overshadowed through his whole career by the similar but even better Rickey Henderson. Despite all this he’s still an obvious pick, but it shouldn’t be surprising that a lot of people can’t see it.
BTW…Raines has now climbed up to 27.9%.
|
Bookmarks
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.
Hot Topics
Newsblog: Numbers For Dodgers Do Not Add Up As Baseball Takes More Of Team's TV Money (12 - 2:15am, Jun 18)Last: drdrNewsblog: OMNICHATTER for 6/17/2013 (117 - 1:47am, Jun 18)Last:  DanNewsblog: OT: NHL is finally back thread (1005 - 1:39am, Jun 18)Last:  zackNewsblog: Gackle: A's pitcher Bartolo Colon becoming Bud Selig's worst nightmare (41 - 12:59am, Jun 18)Last: Walt DavisNewsblog: LATimes: Microsoft unveils new Xbox One console (176 - 12:54am, Jun 18)Last:  Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered CastleNewsblog: Berg: Rumored trivia legend Nick Swisher bats .429 in pub trivia (24 - 12:54am, Jun 18)Last: Cooper NielsonNewsblog: Calcaterra - You can thank Major League Baseball for the sewage mess in the Oakland Coliseum (5 - 12:51am, Jun 18)Last: Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered CastleNewsblog: Mark Appel signs under slot deal with Astros (97 - 11:59pm, Jun 17)Last: Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered CastleNewsblog: Keidel: Bob Costas Blurs Line Between Illuminating And Illuminati (44 - 11:39pm, Jun 17)Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The ShipNewsblog: WSJ: Well That Was an Unlikely Mets Comeback (65 - 11:36pm, Jun 17)Last: Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered CastleNewsblog: Wil Myers promoted by the Tampa Bay Rays (44 - 11:17pm, Jun 17)Last: catomi01Newsblog: With defensive shifts on the rise in baseball, Orioles among leading proponents (10 - 11:00pm, Jun 17)Last: ellsbury my heart at wounded kneeNewsblog: WaPo - Sheinin | For Angels' Mike Trout, no ceiling applies (1 - 10:59pm, Jun 17)Last: Walt DavisNewsblog: OT: NBA Finals and June thread (632 - 10:42pm, Jun 17)Last:  RollingWaveNewsblog: OT: The Soccer Thread June, 2013 (543 - 10:09pm, Jun 17)Last:  Weekly Journalist_
|
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. Bad Doctor Posted: January 06, 2009 at 04:24 PM (#3044372)I don't know ... positional/defensive value is one of the items that gives me some pause on Raines's candidacy, and I don't recall seeing much evidence, statistical or anecdotal, that suggests that he was of much value in left field, let alone that he would have been a good centerfielder if only Dawson wasn't there. Looking it up, Dawson got moved off of center before Raines's age 24 season. Raines was still pretty new to the outfield in general at that time, so I don't see why the Expos wouldn't try to move him to center at that point unless they thought he couldn't handle it. Or maybe Marchman is referring to Herm Winningham as a "star."
It seems to me that Raines's direct comparables are Gwynn, Henderson, Molitor, maybe Boggs, Biggio, Alomar, and Larkin. The ones that are in so far have 3,000 hits. I don't see Raines going in unless Alomar and Larkin go in easily.
Let's not forget studs like Dave Martinez, Mitch Webster, and Otis Nixon.
I remember an interview with Roy Firestone in the late 80's where Raines said he played left because he didn't have the arm for right or center. He probably could have handled CF range wise, but even he admitted his arm wasn't up to the task.
They did - Raines played 160 games in center in 1984, before being moved back to left. Anyone have any kind of evaluation of his performance that year?
TotalZone says -2.
No matter where Raines could have played, he played 1966 games in LF and 165 in CF. His value is hurt by the fact that his comparison group is LF but "could have played CF" doesn't change that one bit. Such an argument becomes stranger given Raines was given one season of CF at age 24 then moved back to LF. In that age 25 season, Dawson still got 164 innings and 21 starts in CF -- why weren't those given to Raines? After that age 24 season, Raines spent 2.7 innings in CF.
We don't have any evidence suggesting he could cut in CF and a good bit of evidence that he couldn't (mainly 1966 games in LF). To my knowledge we don't even have any evidence that he was a good defensive LF.
I'll say it again -- if you want to make a persuasive case for Raines for the HoF, you change his position to "leadoff hitter" and you claim he was the 3rd greatest leadoff hitter of all-time (Henderson, Rose). The only debate will be around whether he was better than Brock. But I am confident that you will convince more voters that the 3rd (or even 4th) greatest leadoff hitter of all-time deserves to go in than you will convince Raines was really a CF in disguise.
I agree with Mr. Davis that it shouldn't be a factor in evaluating Raines' Hall worthiness, but it's still something to keep in mind.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main