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Saturday, April 13, 2013

Margalus: Years later, Carlos Quentin takes matters into his own hands

But let’s go back and turn that statement into a question: “Why would Quentin snap over this one?” It took until the second news cycle to start to examine why a guy who had been plunked 279 times since college would only take umbrage at the 280th HBP on Thursday night. Quentin’s an intense fellow on the field, but if you had an “erratic behavior” competition leading up to this incident, Greinke would win going away.

(Plus, Quentin wasn’t even over the plate this time.)

Quentin says it goes back to 2009, and Sox fans may remember it. On April 8, Greinke threw a fastball over Quentin’s head during his first plate appearance, then drilled him during the second. Quentin took a few steps toward the mound before umpire Bill Hohn and catcher Miguel Olivo intervened. In Greinke’s second start against the Sox that year, he came high and tight again with the first pitch to knock Quentin off the plate.

That’s when we started to notice that Ozzie Guillen stopped taking action when pitchers recklessly threw inside to White Sox hitters. It was a problem that plagued the Sox over those next three seasons, with a grossly lopsided HBP imbalance that included a number of hand injuries for the Sox, and a pitch to the face, too. Guillen could only respond with shrugs.

Thanks to Ryan.

 

Repoz Posted: April 13, 2013 at 01:28 PM | 92 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, white sox

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   1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: April 13, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4413072)
Can't wait for Monday to see this ape get drilled.
   2. cardsfanboy Posted: April 13, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4413076)
We thought Milton Bradley had the issues... This Quentin dude needs to be drummed out of baseball at this rate.
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4413106)
We thought Milton Bradley had the issues... This Quentin dude needs to be drummed out of baseball at this rate.


What the hell does that mean?

He's been hit 116 times in his career. He's had an issue with exactly one pitcher. As rates go, that's pretty damn mild.

Carlos Quentin has been your typical high-HBP guy. Stands close to the plate, doesn't do much to get out of the way and takes his base quietly after the plunking. A single feud with one pitcher doesn't make him some out of control ape.

   4. chisoxcollector Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4413107)
I'm not sure how reading this article could cause somebody to come down harder on Quentin than they were previously. It is clear that Greinke has indeed been throwing at Quentin a lot more than the HBP total would indicate. This doesn't necessarily excuse what Quentin did, but it does leave me without any remorse at all for Greinke. If somebody repeatedly throws at me, you better believe I'm going to defend myself. And the way hitters defend themselves against pitchers is by charging the mound.

Unless you think everybody that has ever charged the mound should be "drummed out of baseball" (which you might actually believe, I'm not sure), then it seems ridiculous to think that Quentin should be.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4413116)
I'm not sure how reading this article could cause somebody to come down harder on Quentin than they were previously


The article quotes an at bat that happened in 2009...4 years ago. Get over it you self centered #### face(that is to Quentin, not chisoxcollector) Sorry but there is no reason to hold a grudge. And by all accounts including this article, says that Quentin hangs over the plate. I'm sorry, but if you hang over the plate, you are a target. You have zero, I mean absolutely zero right to get upset about a brushback pitch that gets out of control.

I do not understand the concept of holding a grudge for longer than a day...this 4 year grudge is just childish pettiness that Quentin is imagining in his head because he is clearly a self important #########.

That is the 3rd hbp that Quentin has had from Greinke... he is imagining more than the reality.
   6. chisoxcollector Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4413121)
The article states that Greinke threw a fastball over Quentin's head in one PA, and followed that up by hitting him in his next PA. Throwing a fastball at somebody's head is extremely dangerous. I totally understand holding a grudge for 4 years, if not forever. If somebody punched me, I would definitely hold a grudge. And that isn't half as dangerous as a fastball thrown above the shoulders. And it appears that there was at least one more brushback in their very next game against each other. Quentin may have been willing to let it go. Both Greinke and Quentin are on new teams, in the other league. Maybe Quentin was ready to start over... and then Greinke hits him again. Greinke isn't letting Quentin "get over it".
   7. KT's Pot Arb Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4413125)
LOL, there is zero evidence Greinke has ever thrown at Quentin and he was clearly not throwing at Carlos that day. And double LOL at that photo before the pitch was released, Carlos dives into pitches, lets have a pic showing where Quentin was when he was hit.

Carlos Quentin's attempts to take the inside part of the plate away from pitchers, that's his full time strategy and he needs to accept that he's going to get brush backed and hit in a regular basis.

I think the MLB should ban Carlos from wearing body armor when hitting. That will solve the Carlis Quentin problem for good..
   8. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4413126)

The article quotes an at bat that happened in 2009...4 years ago. Get over it you self centered #### face(that is to Quentin, not chisoxcollector) Sorry but there is no reason to hold a grudge. And by all accounts including this article, says that Quentin hangs over the plate. I'm sorry, but if you hang over the plate, you are a target. You have zero, I mean absolutely zero right to get upset about a brushback pitch that gets out of control.


And another one in a follow-up at bat, and still more according to Konerko in the video. Clearly, to Quentin, it's more than just the three HBPs, but a pattern of Greinke coming in on him. Good Christ, he gets hit at a higher rate than anyone in the history of the game, and has never said boo about it until now. Maybe he's completely wrong about Greinke, but it should at least make you wonder why he would suddenly charge the mound after eight years of quietly taking his base. Well, it would, if you haven't already determined he's an out-of-control #######.


Carlos Quentin's attempts to take the inside part of the plate away from pitchers, that's his full time strategy and he needs to accept that he's going to get brush backed and hit in a regular basis.


Which he's done with every other pitcher in the league who isn't Greinke.

there is zero evidence Greinke has ever thrown at Quentin


Other than the rare Cole Hamels type admission, there's generally zero evidence any pitcher ever throws at any hitter. That hasn't stopped hitters, and fans, from concluding otherwise.
   9. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4413136)
And double LOL at that photo before the pitch was released, Carlos dives into pitches, lets have a pic showing where Quentin was when he was hit.


Quentin did his customary "turn but don't back away" as the pitch was approaching him. He made no effort to get out of the way of it.
   10. cardsfanboy Posted: April 13, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4413148)
The article states that Greinke threw a fastball over Quentin's head in one PA, and followed that up by hitting him in his next PA.


In 2009...

Sorry, not an excuse to charge the mound. There is never an excuse to charge the mound, but if there was an excuse to charge the mound...this was not it. Quentin is insulting his own team with his actions. If he was ticked off because Ozzie didn't retaliate, that has zero to do with his new team.

I'm sorry, but there is nothing that could ever be said that could justify Quentin's actions.

Good Christ, he gets hit at a higher rate than anyone in the history of the game, and has never said boo about it until now.

Maybe he just doesn't like Greinke and is attaching motive because of his own personal bias.

I know plenty of people on this board who do that constantly.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4413159)
In 2009...


That's the first time it happened. It doesn't say that was the last time. The article cites another instance of Greinke coming up and in on him, and Konerko says there were others. My guess is the 2009 pitch over his head, followed by the HBP in his next at bat, planted the seed in his mind that Greinke was throwing at him, something subsequent inside pitches only reinforced (rightly or wrongly). I don't know if he's right about that, but at least I'm open to the possibility and can understand why he might think it. And considering that he otherwise does take his medicine for crowding the plate without incident, I think it's worth being a little more open minded about it than you are.

Maybe he just doesn't like Greinke and is attaching motive because of his own personal bias.


As long as we're just randomly throwing #### against the wall, maybe it's because Greinke is a raging bigot.

But I'd still like an answer to the question I posed in 3. What rate? He's charged exactly one pitcher in 116 HBPs, which is a very low rate for big league standards. What the hell were you referring to in Post 2?
   12. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 13, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4413179)
He's charged exactly one pitcher in 116 HBPs, which is a very low rate for big league standards.


During last night's Rockies game, the announcers noted that not a single hitter charged the mound all of last year, which I found both surprising and refreshing. There were 1494 HBPs last year, so one out of 116 is actually pretty high.
   13. cardsfanboy Posted: April 13, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4413183)
What the hell were you referring to in Post 2?


Rate may not have been the correct word. This holding a grudge for 4 ####### years is insane. He has been quoted as planning to charge the mound again if he is hit again. This implies forethought, implies that he doesn't believe there is the possibility of an accident, etc... #### that guy. He should be drummed out of baseball if he thinks that.

They faced each other in 2009, 2010, and 2013.... Greinke vs Quentin

It had been 18+ plate appearances since he hit him last, in that time they have gone an entire season against each other(2010) without being hit. Has Greinke pitched inside on him? I'm sure he has, all good pitchers pitch inside(except maybe Glavine) but that is part of the game.. Quentin is attaching a personal motive in something that looks to be just random chance.

I'm sorry but there is no way to justify Quentin's actions. IF.... and I mean IF they were both on the same teams that they were with when this "feud" started, then I could almost see a way of justifying it, but once you switch teams, you have to reset the clock.

   14. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4413210)
I'm sorry but there is no way to justify Quentin's actions. IF.... and I mean IF they were both on the same teams that they were with when this "feud" started, then I could almost see a way of justifying it, but once you switch teams, you have to reset the clock.


I'm not justifying Quentin's actions. I'm trying to understand why they happened, which is a hell of a lot more than you're trying to do.

When I see a guy who is straight out of the Biggio-Baylor school of HBPs charge the mound, I'n naturally curious why this one HBP would suddenly set him off when he has treated so many others in just the fashion that Value Arb says he must. You, obviously, see this one time as unmistakable proof that he's a raging ####### that should be drummed out of baseball.

Now, I have no problem saying that Quentin should have gotten more than 8 games for his mound charge, as should anyone else who does likewise (and while there may not have been a single instance of a batter getting all the way to the mound following an HBP in 2012, there were HPB-related brawls last year just the same). Baseball needs to take a hard look at these weak punishments.

But I'll also say this. If he's been holding a four-year grudge* against Greinke (whether that grudge is justified or unjustified is not really important), then it's more than possible that Greinke was aware of his feelings. And if Greinke was aware of them, and he opted to mouth off after hitting him Tuesday night, then I wouldn't feel any sympathy for his injury.

* And sorry, but you're whole, you can't a grudge bit is not the way human beings work. If Quentin thought Greinke was throwing at him in 2009 when Zack came up and in on one at bat and hit him on the subsequent one, then it's just human nature that subsequent pitches high and tight from Greinke would merely reinfoce the idea in his head. We see that with baseball observation all the time. To think that a ballplayer would be immune from this kind of thinking is ridiculous.
   15. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 13, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4413236)
I do not understand the concept of holding a grudge for longer than a day...this 4 year grudge is just childish pettiness


Pfft. You American sports fans don't know anything about holding grudges.

How about holding one for 48 years?
   16. Greg K Posted: April 13, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4413243)
How about holding one for 48 years?

Wow, Mosca got him pretty good with that cane.
   17. chisoxcollector Posted: April 13, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4413260)
I'm sorry but there is no way to justify Quentin's actions. IF.... and I mean IF they were both on the same teams that they were with when this "feud" started, then I could almost see a way of justifying it, but once you switch teams, you have to reset the clock.


I made this point earlier. Maybe Quentin eventually calmed down and did indeed try to "reset the clock". And then in the first game he faces Greinke while both are members of their new teams, Greinke hits him again. You can't see how maybe that would set Quentin off?

It boggles my mind that you can't even see that possibility.
   18. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4413261)
He's been hit 116 times in his career. He's had an issue with exactly one pitcher. As rates go, that's pretty damn mild.


Uh, no it isn't. Not at all. Hitters don't charge the mound on average once in 116 trips -- or anything close to that. Almost all hitters never charge the mound.

EDIT: In fairness, the denominator shouldn't be trips but should be HBP. I still think my overall point stands.
   19. Tripon Posted: April 13, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4413270)

I made this point earlier. Maybe Quentin eventually calmed down and did indeed try to "reset the clock". And then in the first game he faces Greinke while both are members of their new teams, Greinke hits him again. You can't see how maybe that would set Quentin off?

It boggles my mind that you can't even see that possibility.


If this is true, than it shows that Quentin had intent in rushing the mound and should be suspended for more than the 8 games he got. You don't get to intentionally injure another person just because you have a persecution complex.

Chisoxcollector, according to your theory if Quentin ever gets hits twice by the same pitcher and Quentin EVER THOUGHT it was intentional, he's justified in rushing the mound and hurting the pitcher.

That's ########.
   20. Shibal Posted: April 13, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4413274)
Zach Greinke should be in jail!

Sure it is possible that Greinke decided at that moment to hit revive an imaginary feud that has only been going on in Quentin's mind, a feud apparently on hold for four years.

It is equally possible that Quentin is a roided up freak with self-control issues.

I'm going to go with Quentin is a roided up freak.

   21. Squash Posted: April 13, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4413277)
280 HBPs since college is pretty amazing, especially for a dude who's always injured and never on the field. That's half a season's worth of PAs for him which have ended in HBPs (more actually, as he's only reached 560 PAs once and only came sort of close one other time). That's extraordinary.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4413294)
Uh, no it isn't. Not at all. Hitters don't charge the mound on average once in 116 trips -- or anything close to that. Almost all hitters never charge the mound.


I was actually referring to those players with a rate of charging the mound. Sorry that was unclear. Dozens of active players have charged the mound through the years, all of whom get hit much less frequently than Quentin does. I haven't seen anyone suggest these other gents shold be drummed out of baseball or compared unfavorably to Milton Bradley, as cfb ludicrously did in Post 2.

Chisoxcollector, according to your theory if Quentin ever gets hits twice by the same pitcher and Quentin EVER THOUGHT it was intentional, he's justified in rushing the mound and hurting the pitcher.


No one has justified him charging the mound. Stop this.

The point was trying to figure out why it happened, why a guy who always turns his back and takes his base when he's hit by pitches (which happens with a greater frequency with him than any player in MLB history) was suddenly angered to the point of rushing the mound. And in his case, he has a history with Greinke. Now maybe that history exists only in his mind (I doubt that, but I'll grant that). Even so, if he thinks that Greinke has routinely thrown up and in on him (and let's face it, it's the up that riles players more than the in), then it shouldn't be that hard to see how he had reached his boiling point. It doesn't justify it. It doesn't excuse it. But it really doesn't take any kind of mental gymnastics to see how it can happen. If you can't see that, you're purposely not looking.

I'm going to go with Quentin is a roided up freak.


Because of that 1 time in 116. That's what I don't get. if Quentin was a roided-up freak wiht control issues, wouldn't he have likely gotten into a scrum with a pitcher in one of the previous 115 instances he was hit.
   23. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4413301)
"Because of that 1 time in 116"

Premises first: Are we sure he's never charged the mound before?
   24. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4413307)
If one of his teammates did not body slam Gweinke to the ground, his collarbone would not be broken. There'd be very little story here. I'm not Quentin fan but this holier than thou crap about him being a freak and an ape and should be drummed out of baseball denigrates this site. Do I think people should charge the mound? No. Are we human? Yes. Is Quentin frustrated about missing so much time over the years, sure.Is Greinke a head case? Yep.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4413309)
Premises first: Are we sure he's never charged the mound before?


I don't recall him doing it. You don't recall him doing it. The Sox blogger says he didn't. Nothing in the thread from the postgame indicates he's brawled before. A search for Diamondbacks Quentin brawl or White Sox Quentin brawl yields nothing. There was no mention of a previous brawl in any of the post-Greinke coverage I saw.

So it's possible he's done it before, but it doesn't seem bloody likely.

   26. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4413310)
Is Greinke a head case? Yep.


Looks to me that the head case was Quentin.
   27. Tripon Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4413319)


I don't recall him doing it. You don't recall him doing it. The Sox blogger says he didn't. Nothing in the thread from the postgame indicates he's brawled before. A search for Diamondbacks Quentin brawl or White Sox Quentin brawl yields nothing. There was no mention of a previous brawl in any of the post-Greinke coverage I saw.

So it's possible he's done it before, but it doesn't seem bloody likely.


This is ########. It doesn't matter if this is the first time he brawled, or he did it before. He intentionally charged the mound and injured Grienke. And the person who tried to justify this is Quentin himself claiming he has 'history' with Grienke. If I punched you in the face, it doesn't mean I get the benefit of the doubt that I'm not an ####### just because it might be my first time.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4413332)
This is ########. It doesn't matter if this is the first time he brawled, or he did it before. He intentionally charged the mound and injured Grienke. And the person who tried to justify this is Quentin himself claiming he has 'history' with Grienke. If I punched you in the face, it doesn't mean I get the benefit of the doubt that I'm not an ####### just because it might be my first time.


It matters because that's the ####### question I was asked. I know you're upset because your big FA signing got hurt and you can't really get a handle on your emotions right now, but Ray and I are allowed to have a conversation on the subject.

I'm interested in why this happened. I find it bizarre that a guy who gets hit more frequently than anyone in MLB history, a guy who comes from the turn your shoulder, take the HBP and run down to first school suddenly charged the mound, and I don't think "cuz he's an #######," is the only possible answer.

And if you punched me in the face, I suspect a great many people would wonder why the hell you did it, and whether I might have done something in advance that contributed to that face-punching.* Most face-punchings generally have a precipitating event. In fact, 100 percent of the face-punchings I've received have been prompted, at least in some small way, by something I've done or said.

* And like with Quentin and charging the mound, this wouldn't necessarily justify or excuse the face-punching, though it can help explain how it happened.
   29. Arva Posted: April 13, 2013 at 06:09 PM (#4413369)
Here is what we know:

1. Carlos Quentin gets hit by a lot of pitches.
2. Carlos Quentin believes that Grienke is out to get him, and may have been thrown at before.
3. Grienke doesn't hit many batters, but is a head case.
4. Greinke may very well have something against Quentin.
5. The pitch last night was not intentional. It was an 89 mph cutter that was inside. It was not just inside or way inside, but solidly inside.
6. Carlos Quentin went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Grienke.

The only one of those reasons that have any relevance is the last one. I have no rooting interest in this fight. But Quentin admits that he wanted to hurt Grienke. He admits that he intended to attack Grienke. This is not just frustration boiling over, but a man who decided that he had been disrespected and wanted to teach the other guy a lesson. That's a bit different than a fight that breaks out in the heat of the moment or between two bitter rivals where teammates are riling people up. Its not the brawl, or the injury, that is worrisome here. Its the premeditated attack of another player.

If Grienke had thrown a 95 mph fastball at Quentin's head, then said after the game that he did it because of history, I don't think anyone here would be defending him or looking for an explanation of the behavior. I think he would have been vilified here, maybe even more than Quentin.

We have a lot of information here, and an explanation for Quentin's action here. The problem is that the explanation, the history between the two players, actually makes this more troubling. A premeditated attack on another teams player is absolutely unacceptable. But, we do have a reason for this attack, it just seems some people don't want to accept the reason.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 06:24 PM (#4413388)
6. Carlos Quentin went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Grienke.


Do you have a cite for this?
   31. Shibal Posted: April 13, 2013 at 07:06 PM (#4413426)
Do you have a cite for this?


If you are asking for facts, can we get a fact check on Oney's comment that poor Carlos has been hit 'many, many times" by Grienke? I never knew "many, many" equaled three.

It's funny looking at the pitches Grienke threw Quentin. He threw about 12 pitches to him; only the last one was inside. Just about every other pitch was outside. That's what he has always done to Quentin. Junk low away, fastball inside. Just like any other pitcher.

By the way, here's the PitchFx of Grienke hitting Quentin the first time. A Jeff Nelson type umpire might have called it a strike had Quentin not leaned into it with his shoulder.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?s_type=3&sp_type=1&batterX=8&inning1=y&month=07&day=18&game=gid_2008_07_18_kcamlb_chamlb_1/&year=2008&pitchSel=425844&prevGame=gid_2008_07_18_kcamlb_chamlb_1/
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4413430)
If you are asking for facts, can we get a fact check on Oney's comment that poor Carlos has been hit 'many, many times" by Grienke? I never knew "many, many" equaled three.


Did Oney post here, or did I cite Oney's tweet as fact? I'm asking about Arva's contention that we know Quentin went into the game looking to hurt Greinke.
   33. Shibal Posted: April 13, 2013 at 07:22 PM (#4413440)
Oh, you want a quote from Quentin saying he was going into the game looking to hurt Greinke.

We can speculate about Greinke's motives or what he said to Quentin after Quentin mouthed off to him, but we shouldn't speculate about Quentin holding a grudge without citing the evidence.

Got it.
   34. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: April 13, 2013 at 07:35 PM (#4413441)
We can speculate about Greinke's motives or what he said to Quentin after Quentin mouthed off to him, but we shouldn't speculate about Quentin holding a grudge without citing the evidence.


The line "Carlos Quentin went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Grienke" in #29 was presented under the heading "Here's what we know". It was presented as known fact, not speculation. If you're going to present something incendiary as fact, you need a cite.
   35. cardsfanboy Posted: April 13, 2013 at 07:40 PM (#4413442)
We can speculate about Greinke's motives or what he said to Quentin after Quentin mouthed off to him, but we shouldn't speculate about Quentin holding a grudge without citing the evidence.


The article itself cites evidence. Not from Quentin, but Oney Guillen claims that Quentin told him himself. It's better evidence than any which Quentin has produced about Greinke's supposed intention.


Given this history, it's funny that Oney Guillen was back to embarrassing his dad when he tweeted after the brawl:

"greinke has hit carlos many many times. look it up. told me long long time ago. if he does it again im going for him. that was like 09."
   36. ugen64 Posted: April 13, 2013 at 07:42 PM (#4413444)
The article states that Greinke threw a fastball over Quentin's head in one PA, and followed that up by hitting him in his next PA.


I looked up the PitchFX of those two plate appearances.

First PA: He threw 2 strikes, then the 3rd one went over his head (looks to me like he was trying to set him up inside before going low and away). Then he threw 2 breaking balls and struck Quentin out. In the 2nd PA, the count was 1-1 when he hit Quentin. The point here is it took Greinke 8 pitches to intentionally hit Quentin (for whatever unknown reason), during which he forgot he was trying to hit Quentin and struck him out with a slider. This is evidently what Quentin considers worthy of charging the mound 3 years later.

I also looked up Quentin's history against pitchers. 4 pitchers have hit him 3+ times over his career, including Nick Blackburn (who hit him 4 times in 37 PA), and Erik Bedard (who somehow hit him 3 times in just 9 PA). The third guy is Jon Lester, against whom Quentin hit 0-11 with 1 BB and 3 HBP. Point is, unless there's some personal thing that none of us knows about, it seems like getting hit 3 times in 31 PA (which, by the way, is the lowest ratio of any of these aforementioned pitchers) is purely a coincidence.
   37. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 13, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4413451)
Yeah, Ray. Quentin's the head case.

Three years ago, Greinke gave up baseball. Doctors would determine that he was a victim of depression and a mental illness called social anxiety disorder. It’s the same thing that Ricky Williams, the Dolphins running back, has battled, and it makes being among people and having to interact with them sheer torture.

After taking time off and receiving his diagnosis, Greinke started taking medication and attending counseling and therapy sessions – all of which has helped him get back in the game.
   38. Esoteric Posted: April 13, 2013 at 08:36 PM (#4413455)
Three years ago, Greinke gave up baseball. Doctors would determine that he was a victim of depression and a mental illness called social anxiety disorder. It’s the same thing that Ricky Williams, the Dolphins running back, has battled, and it makes being among people and having to interact with them sheer torture.
Don't get cute. You know full well Ray was referring to a very different thing when he used the phrase "head case." Quentin has a temper, rage issues (this is the guy who snapped his own wrist smashing a bat in anger). Greinke may have social anxiety disorder, but that has absolutely nothing to do with his temper or anger management issues.
   39. chisoxcollector Posted: April 13, 2013 at 09:29 PM (#4413473)
I probably watched about half of Quentin's games with the White Sox, and he pretty much always puts his head down and runs to first base after a HBP. I can't even recall him glaring at a pitcher after a HBP, though I obviously missed the earlier Greinke altercation. The only times I've seen him act out on a baseball field were towards himself, not others. He obviously feels that Greinke has had it out for him, and his reaction to this HBP is natural if that was the case.

Like I said before, none of this excuses him charging the mound. But the previous history between the two provided just as much reason for Quentin to charge the mound as previous mound-chargers have had, so I don't understand the uproar towards Quentin. Also, I'm sure many of the other mound charging incidents were somewhat premeditated, so I don't see how that makes Quentin's transgression any worse. Greinke had the misfortune of being trampled by a teammate during the scrum. How does that make Quentin a steroid fueled ape that must be drummed out baseball???
   40. chisoxcollector Posted: April 13, 2013 at 09:31 PM (#4413474)
To all of the people posting about how lots of other pitchers have hit Quentin multiple times. Isn't it possible that this is actually evidence that there is something to Quentin's claims, or at least his belief in the claims?

If all of these other pitchers are hitting Quentin as frequently, or even more frequently than Greinke, why isn't this steroid-fueled ape charging all of them?
   41. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: April 13, 2013 at 09:33 PM (#4413475)
If Quentin wants to argue it was justified, I see that as an affirmative defense in this situation, one he has done jack squat to make. Why should we simply decide he must have a case because he doesn't do it very often? By that token, O.J. Simpson must have had a pretty good reason - he had an immaculate previous record of never having murdered millions of people, stretching out nearly 5 decades.
   42. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: April 13, 2013 at 09:44 PM (#4413476)
Hey Esoteric - I'm not cute. And Greinke is the clinical headcase. Are you seriously citing smashing a bat a head case? How many water coolers have been smashed and bats broken over knees? Ridiculous.
   43. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: April 13, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4413478)
Highest percentage of HBP per PA (among the players I happened to look at)

Quentin: 4.14
Ron Hunt: 3.95
Baylor: 2.85
Biggio: 2.28

I didn't think anyone could beat Ron Hunt
   44. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 09:54 PM (#4413479)
The article itself cites evidence. Not from Quentin, but Oney Guillen claims that Quentin told him himself. It's better evidence than any which Quentin has produced about Greinke's supposed intention.


I asked for evidence that Quentin went into THIS GAME looking to HURT Greinke. That's evidence, from a questionable source, that he's indicated in the past that he's not going to put up with getting hit by Greinke again. It doesn't come close to what Arva said is something we know as a fact.

By that token, O.J. Simpson must have had a pretty good reason - he had an immaculate previous record of never having murdered millions of people, stretching out nearly 5 decades.


Wow, not even remotely close there Dan.
   45. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: April 13, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4413483)
Regardless of everything else being discussed on this thread, I think arguably the best evidence that Greinke was not trying to hit Quentin was the situation:

Dodgers up 2-1 in the top of the 6th inning, Quentin leading off the inning, count is 3-and-2. There's no way he is trying to put the leadoff hitter on in that situation.

Also, this was the 17th plate appearance by Quentin against Greinke since that 2009 HBP - there are several times since then that would've been "better" for Greinke to hit Quentin in a less "costly" situation for the team. But he had not hit him since that early 2009 game.

Then you add in the type of pitch it was, the fact Quentin gets hit more than anybody, etc. - this one is pretty easy to identify as an unintentional HBP.

As for Quentin, I think batters should have to wear everything around the bases that they wear to the plate. And there is a rule that says the hitter is supposed to try to get out of the way of a pitch, if possible, lest the umpire refuse to grant you first base. Doesn't happen often, but Quentin clearly understands that HBPs are a meaningful part of his strategy up at the plate.
   46. Bug Selig Posted: April 13, 2013 at 10:29 PM (#4413494)
6. Carlos Quentin went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Grienke.


Do you have a cite for this?


The fact that nothing whatsoever happened during the game to cause him to do what he did?

He was at whatever stage of rage ranks just below murderous. That level of malicious intent was either prior to the game or came about during the game. And nothing during the game gave him the slightest provocation. Is there an alternate conclusion to the notion that it was pre-existing? Especially given that at least one person claims that he told him that it existed and that he intended to act upon it. Granted, the source is an ass, but if Quentin's supporters have a problem with the quality of the witness, they should advise him to confide in a better class of people.
   47. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2013 at 10:33 PM (#4413498)
6. Carlos Quentin went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Grienke.

Do you have a cite for this?


Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself.



   48. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 13, 2013 at 10:34 PM (#4413500)

By that token, O.J. Simpson must have had a pretty good reason - he had an immaculate previous record of never having murdered millions of people, stretching out nearly 5 decades.


Wow, not even remotely close there Dan.


Yet, you don't explain why.
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: April 13, 2013 at 11:37 PM (#4413533)
The fact that nothing whatsoever happened during the game to cause him to do what he did?


Well, he got hit with a pitch. That's what usually causes these things to happen. Most often, the jackass charging the mound reads intent into the pitch that isn't there. This is probably one of those cases.

Yet, you don't explain why.


For starters, for it to be an accurate comparision, we wouldn't look at all of the times in O.J. Simpson's life he didn't murder anyone, but the times he was put in the set of circumstances that preceded the action and how frequently he responded with murder. We're not talking about all the hundreds of thousands of times Carlos Quentin, either on or off the baseball field, didn't bullrush someone, but the specific 116 times he's been in this situation and how he responded.

In the O.J. case, a more reasonable comaprsion might be to say O.J. was married and separated twice, and he murdered one of his estranged wives. That would be much closer to a proper analogy, but there's probably even better ones you can find if you're so inclined. I don't find it worth the time.

Second, we said nothing about a good reason. That was Dan not paying attention. We've merely tried to figure out why he did something entirely inconsistent with all of the other times he was in a similar situation. We didn't offer any judgment on whether the reason he had was good or bad. We've speculated that it's likely, at least in his mind if nowhere else, that something made this situation different than all those other times. Others have said he's just a jackass or a raging roider and a guy who compares unfavorably to Milton ####### Bradley, etc. Now all of these are possibilities (though the last example is really out there), though it's curious (at least to us) why that never manifested itself given the fact he had so many previous opportunities.

Finally, neither Chisox or I was offering a defense of Quentin's actions. Whether he and Greinke have a genuine history of bad blood doesn't excuse or justify what he did.

So, in conclusion, it was a piss-poor analogy that didn't accurately reflect the arguments being made. My "not remotely close" was a far gentler rebuttal than his drive-by comment warranted.
   50. DanG Posted: April 14, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4413546)
Most hittable players in history:

Rk            Player   %  HBP   PA From   To
1    Hughie Jennings 5.08 287 5648 1891 1918
2     Carlos Quentin 4.14 116 2800 2006 2013
3    F
.PSantangelo 4.00  83 2075 1995 2001
4           Ron Hunt 3.95 243 6158 1963 1974
5       Craig Wilson 3.89  90 2311 2001 2007
6         Dan McGann 3.80 230 6051 1896 1908
7       Tommy Tucker 3.74 272 7273 1887 1899 
   51. Baldrick Posted: April 14, 2013 at 12:18 AM (#4413548)
If you're not trying to defend Quentin, then WTF are you talking about?

The guy did something extremely stupid, appears to have no regret over it whatsoever, and his actions caused a serious injury to Greinke. What's more, it was based on a total nothingburger of supposed 'history' between the two that is entirely in Quentin's head.

That Quentin thinks he's justified in this, based on the total lack of any evidence, makes him appear WORSE than if he had just lost his head. People who do stupid things, which provoke bad consequences, and who nevertheless think they're in the right...are dangerous people.
   52. SoSH U at work Posted: April 14, 2013 at 12:39 AM (#4413549)
If you're not trying to defend Quentin, then WTF are you talking about?


From the moment I heard about it, I thought it was fascinating that a player with Quention's profile, a guy who gets hit more frequently than all but one player in history (thanks for the correction DanG) and who has heretofore never responded to any of those plunkings, acted the way he did on this particular occasion. I wonder why it happened, and don't find "he's a hothead" to be a very complete explanation.

Moreover, I entered the thread in response to cfb's comment in Post 2, which I still find absurd, but somewhat reflective of the overall attitude to this incident. We've all seen dozens of jackasses charge the mound since we've been posting at this site. I don't recall the vitriol directed at anyone like it's been at Quentin.
   53. Tripon Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:02 AM (#4413555)
From the moment I heard about it, I thought it was fascinating that a player with Quention's profile, a guy who gets hit more frequently than all but one player in history (thanks for the correction DanG) and who has heretofore never responded to any of those plunkings, acted the way he did on this particular occasion. I wonder why it happened, and don't find "he's a hothead" to be a very complete explanation.


A reminder after taking in the brawl last night between the Dodgers and Padres after Zack Greinke hit Carlos Quentin, who then charged the pitcher and broke his collarbone: Last Aug. 19 in San Diego, Ryan Vogelsong had a beef with Quentin after hitting him with a pitch, and Clayton Richard retaliating by hitting Brandon Belt.

Vogelsong fumed after the game that Quentin crowds the plate and should not react the way he does.

“Go look at the video,” Vogelsong fumed. “It was a two-seamer that ran of the plate. That guy hammers balls over the plate and he gets pissed when you throw the ball inside. It doesn’t make sense. Every time you hit a guy in this game now they think you did it on purpose. It’s tired.”
   54. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:20 AM (#4413562)
If you're not trying to defend Quentin, then WTF are you talking about?


Who knows. It's classic BBTF. Take position X and then claim you haven't taken position X.
   55. SoSH U at work Posted: April 14, 2013 at 01:50 AM (#4413570)
Take position X and then claim you haven't taken position X.


Absent that tricky, Take position X part. Seriously, if you can find where I've defended Quentin charging the mound, I'd love to see it. Though I guess you can just a throw a little Latin out there and pretend that's the same thing.

Thanks for the link Tripon. Nothing about charging, but a bit more evidence that Quentin is a little more sensitive than the average Rawlings magnet.

Edit: And reading that original story, it doesn't say at all what Quentin did that so irked Vogelsong.
   56. Tripon Posted: April 14, 2013 at 02:01 AM (#4413572)
Edit: And reading that original story, it doesn't say at all what Quentin did that so irked Vogelsong.


The implication is that Quentin got his team to throw at Brandon Belt later.
   57. Shibal Posted: April 14, 2013 at 02:08 AM (#4413573)
Fangraphs looked at the 95 times Quentin was hit by a pitch since 2008.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/carlos-quentins-hbp-zone/

There are four pitches that were plotted against the upper corner of the strike zone, to the point where we wouldn’t have been surprised if they had been called strikes had they not hit Quentin.

This is going to be harder to see from the plot, but there are 25 HBPs represented there that were between -1.0 — the inside corner to an RHB — and -1.5 on the horizontal axis. The labels on the x axis are in feet, so you could otherwise say that Quentin was hit by 25 pitches that were recorded to be no further than six inches off the inner part of the plate.

I asked Zimmerman about the frequency of HBPs in that area. According to Jeff, 0.02% of all pitches thrown by Major League hurlers in the -1.0 to -1.5 range result in a hit by pitch, or 2 HBPs per 10,000 pitches thrown in that area. For Quentin, 0.4% of all piches in that range result in an HBP, or 40 per 10,000 pitches.

Quentin’s rate of being hit by pitches within six inches of the inside corner is 20 times higher than the Major League average. It is, at the minimum, a little hard to have sympathy for the guy.

For the record, last night’s pitch from Greinke was plotted at -1.504, so it is just barely outside of that sample area. It was certainly inside and off the plate, but most batters would not have been hit by that pitch.
   58. SoSH U at work Posted: April 14, 2013 at 08:37 AM (#4413589)


The implication is that Quentin got his team to throw at Brandon Belt later.


Sure, that's the implication. Of course, it requires the same kind of divining of intent that everyone is blasting Quentin for. That's the trouble with all of these issues - it involves the kind of mindreading that should really only be left to the pros - i.e. DiPerna. (-:

There are four pitches that were plotted against the upper corner of the strike zone, to the point where we wouldn’t have been surprised if they had been called strikes had they not hit Quentin.

This is going to be harder to see from the plot, but there are 25 HBPs represented there that were between -1.0 — the inside corner to an RHB — and -1.5 on the horizontal axis. The labels on the x axis are in feet, so you could otherwise say that Quentin was hit by 25 pitches that were recorded to be no further than six inches off the inner part of the plate.
I asked Zimmerman about the frequency of HBPs in that area. According to Jeff, 0.02% of all pitches thrown by Major League hurlers in the -1.0 to -1.5 range result in a hit by pitch, or 2 HBPs per 10,000 pitches thrown in that area. For Quentin, 0.4% of all piches in that range result in an HBP, or 40 per 10,000 pitches.

Quentin’s rate of being hit by pitches within six inches of the inside corner is 20 times higher than the Major League average. It is, at the minimum, a little hard to have sympathy for the guy.

For the record, last night’s pitch from Greinke was plotted at -1.504, so it is just barely outside of that sample area. It was certainly inside and off the plate, but most batters would not have been hit by that pitch.


Yes. Guys with historic HBP rates tend to get hit by the kind of pitches that guys who don't get hit by pitches a lot tend to step out of the way from. I figured that would be fairly obvious. Moreover, I'm not sure what it's supposed to demonstrate, since the pitch in question was, in fact, inside the batter's box and high - it could not have been called a strike. Hell, in this case it simply would have been Ball 4.
   59. Gaelan Posted: April 14, 2013 at 10:11 AM (#4413611)
This debate is pathetic. Everything Arva said is true beyond a reasonable doubt. This supposed justification by Quentin makes it a million times worse.

There is no place for Quentin in the game. He's a disgrace on every level. He makes a mockery of the rules with his playing style and intentionally hurt another player because he held an unjustified grudge against him.

This situation is crying out for a Landis moment.

I'd consider suspending him for the season and then letting him Vilma his way back in.
I'd also explicitly change the rules that batters who dive over the plate should not be awarded first base.
Finally, I would track HBP and distribute these numbers to umpires so they would know which batters shouldn't be awarded first base when they were hit.

   60. KronicFatigue Posted: April 14, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4413615)
I thought [57] was really illuminating. There's a wide spectrum of what Greinke's intentions were (and of course, we'll never know). It probably ranges from:

Trying to throw a strike that got away from him --> trying to throw an inside pitch --> trying to reclaim the inside area and if Quentin has to dive out of the way, so be it --> wanting Quentin to have to dive out of the way to send a message not to crowd --> hitting Quentin to send that same message --> hitting Quentin to hurt him.

Obviously one data point can't get inside his head, but it at least moves the needle that intent to hit might be less likely. Again, the pitch was in a location that most batters don't get hit by. Then, looking at the data in the aggregate, it's apparent that Quentin is creating the problem of getting hit. He gets hit by pitches that others don't get hit by. And while it's "obvious" that a leader in HBP would probably have that to be true, the degree is something to take note of. I imagine some batters at the top of the list get hit more b/c they are disliked and have balls thrown more "at them". But Quentin's numbers are inflated by going out of his way to be hit.

All of this is moot though. I don't care about intent. I think they can make a rule that says "if you start a fight, you are suspended at least until everyone who was injured in the fight is playing again" and "if you participate in a fight, and are the person whose actions cause an injury, the same suspension applies". It might be "unlucky" to be in a pile up that randomly knocks a player out for 2 months, but it's equally unlucky to be the injured one.

[EDITED b/c my browser's automatic spell check decided not to work]
   61. Bug Selig Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:04 PM (#4413978)
Well, he got hit with a pitch. That's what usually causes these things to happen. Most often, the jackass charging the mound reads intent into the pitch that isn't there. This is probably one of those cases.


Except I don't think this is the garden variety case of misread intent. As has been pointed out ad infinitum in this thread, he gets hit a lot - it's pretty much the reason he's a viable major league starter. If this wasn't at least a half-formed plan in his head (again, based on history that largely exists only in his head), no rational reading sees him losing his chicken over a pitch that is more likely to result in a called strike than a HBP. For that reason, I don't think he is entitled to any of the heat of the moment or boys will be boys defenses. I think a grown man who plans to commit assault and then does should be punished much more harshly than the generic incident that occurs within the framework of a game. (In hockey terms, he's Todd Bertuzzi. He got suspended for the better part of a year, if I remember correctly.)
   62. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4413987)
Most hittable players in history:


Throwin' at a player. That's a paddlin'. Rushing the pitcher. That's a paddlin'.
   63. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 14, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4414002)
Sure, that's the implication. Of course, it requires the same kind of divining of intent that everyone is blasting Quentin for. That's the trouble with all of these issues - it involves the kind of mindreading that should really only be left to the pros - i.e. DiPerna. (-:


Again, if we can "divine intent" all day long every day in courtrooms across the country in order to put people behind bars - intent is an element of many, many crimes, including murder - we can do so here. It's not that hard to form a reasonable conclusion. You seem to be demanding a videotaped confession from Quentin that he went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Greinke, so there's no reason listening to you on this issue, as you have nothing to offer to reasonable people discussing the issue. A pitch went up and in to him, but not that up and not that in, and he attacked the pitcher. Nothing more is needed to form the reasonable conclusion that he was looking for a reason to attack the pitcher.

Or: What type of evidence would satisfy you, if not a taped confession?
   64. Danny Posted: April 14, 2013 at 06:07 PM (#4414054)
Not to defend Quentin at all, but that Fangraphs article seems very misleading. First, they show a strike zone that's 24 inches wide, and Cameron repeatedly says that the pitch was just 6 inches off the plate. But the plate is only 17 inches wide, and the pitch was actually 9.5 inches off the plate (and 3.5 inches inside the batter's box). Cameron doesn't seem to understand that the chart he was sent is of the typical strike zone called against RHB--not the actual plate.

Second, Cameron's discussion of the frequency of pitches in the -1.0 to -1.5 range leaves out several important factors: (i) it says the analysis looks at all pitches in that range, whereas it should only be looking at pitches in that range against RHB; (ii) the height of the pitch clearly matters, as demonstrated by Quentin's HBP chart, yet they didn't control for height, and (iii) they didn't control for the type of pitch that's thrown, as it's obviously easier to get out of the way of some pitches than others.

That's not to say that Greinke meant to hit Quentin, that Quentin was justified in charging, or that Quentin isn't doing anything to get hit so often. I'm just saying that article is super sloppy.
   65. Poulanc Posted: April 14, 2013 at 07:44 PM (#4414104)
There is no place for Quentin in the game. He's a disgrace on every level. He makes a mockery of the rules with his playing style and intentionally hurt another player because he held an unjustified grudge against him.


Do you feel the same way about any pitcher who intentionally throws at a hitter?
   66. SoSH U at work Posted: April 14, 2013 at 08:23 PM (#4414121)

Again, if we can "divine intent" all day long every day in courtrooms across the country in order to put people behind bars - intent is an element of many, many crimes, including murder - we can do so here. It's not that hard to form a reasonable conclusion. You seem to be demanding a videotaped confession from Quentin that he went into the game looking for a reason to hurt Greinke, so there's no reason listening to you on this issue, as you have nothing to offer to reasonable people discussing the issue. A pitch went up and in to him, but not that up and not that in, and he attacked the pitcher. Nothing more is needed to form the reasonable conclusion that he was looking for a reason to attack the pitcher.

Or: What type of evidence would satisfy you, if not a taped confession?



In all likelihood, I'll never come to a firm conclusion about what each gentleman was thinking (not with the degree of certainty that Arva had).

Here's my best guess. Some of these are facts. Some are my guesses. My guesses are not facts.

Do with it what you will.

A) In 2009, Zack Greinke threw over the head of Carlos Quentin. Such a pitch has a tendency to piss off hitters.
B) In his next at bat, Greinke hit him. My guess is that Carlos Quentin took these two events in such close proximity as a sign that Greinke was trying to hit him. He was most likely wrong.
C) As is frequently the case, that initial impression was hard to shake (much like some folks do with players who get the reputation as clutch or chokers. Subsequent events that confirm the initial impression are remembered, things that don't support it are ignored. So future inside pitches confirmed that Greinke was trying to hit him. If this is indeed what happened, that's on Carlos. I don't defend it, but understanding human nature, I'm not surprised by it.
D) Quentin got himself a hard-on for Greinke.
E) Greinke was aware of this. We know this because he said after Thursday's game that Quentin "always thinks I'm trying to hit him." That indicates Greinke knew there was at least one-way bad blood between them.
F) Quentin may very well have decided that if Greinke hit him again, he was going to do something (from spout off to charge the mound). It didn't mean he went into this game looking for a reason to HURT him, but some kind of response to another HBP was in the back of his mind. I think describing the latter as the former is a stretch, and claiming it is something we know is not something I could do, at least absent much more information.
G) Greinke hit Quentin. This happened. It was on a pitch that was up and in, though not too up and not too in. But it wasn't a case of QUentin getting hit because he was hanging over the plate either. Greinke did, in fact, hit Carlos Quentin with a ball insidethe batter's box.
H) Quentin spouted off to Greinke. And did so aggressively.
I) Greinke said something back.
J) Quentin, as many guys have done, charged Greinke.
K) Greinke subsequently got hurt in the scrum, though it didn't appear to be from direct contact with Quentin.

I think Quentin should have gotten a much longer punishment. Eight games is way too light. I find the idea that he's got more issues than Milton Bradley or should be run out of the game to be ludicrous. And the "he went into the game looking for a fight, so the punishment should be stiffer" argument really doesn't work for me. Then again, I also don't support the idea of hate crimes. Punish the crime, not the reason we think the guy committed the crime.

I also don't have much sympathy for Greinke. He knew Quentin had a hard-on for him. He hit him with a pitch. Had he been interested in avoiding a confrontation, he could have made some kind of concilatory gesture ("Sorry Carlos," "My bad,") rather than the mouthing off he appeared to do.

When the whole thing happened, I was curious why a guy who gets hit so frequently suddenly reacted the way he did. I found that fascinating, which is what I've been discussing most of this time. At no point was I defending Quentin, but merely trying to understand how this happened. I feel I have a better grasp now than I did beforehand, though I don't imagine I'll ever know for certain.
   67. vivaelpujols Posted: April 15, 2013 at 01:52 AM (#4414272)
Yup Quentin's a huge ####### here, and this writer sounds like a typical homer #########.
   68. BFFB Posted: April 15, 2013 at 06:52 AM (#4414283)
Is Greinke a head case? Yep.


Depression and social anxiety disorder are well known for causing violent outbursts.
   69. TomH Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:05 AM (#4414307)
re: post 66 point I) Greinke said something back.

There is a difference, is there not, between "charging the mound" immediatley upon being hit with a pitch, and "charging the mound" after first stepping toward the mound in a menacing manner, then being somewhat more provoked by th epitcher's response, and THEN rushing him?

I think 8 games is fair. If Carlos had simply taken off after Grienke while Grienke gave him a "what you doing?" look and gesture, I'd be up for 30 games or so.
   70. chisoxcollector Posted: April 15, 2013 at 08:07 AM (#4414311)
A) In 2009, Zack Greinke threw over the head of Carlos Quentin. Such a pitch has a tendency to piss off hitters.
B) In his next at bat, Greinke hit him. My guess is that Carlos Quentin took these two events in such close proximity as a sign that Greinke was trying to hit him. He was most likely wrong.
C) As is frequently the case, that initial impression was hard to shake (much like some folks do with players who get the reputation as clutch or chokers. Subsequent events that confirm the initial impression are remembered, things that don't support it are ignored. So future inside pitches confirmed that Greinke was trying to hit him. If this is indeed what happened, that's on Carlos. I don't defend it, but understanding human nature, I'm not surprised by it.
D) Quentin got himself a hard-on for Greinke.
E) Greinke was aware of this. We know this because he said after Thursday's game that Quentin "always thinks I'm trying to hit him." That indicates Greinke knew there was at least one-way bad blood between them.
F) Quentin may very well have decided that if Greinke hit him again, he was going to do something (from spout off to charge the mound). It didn't mean he went into this game looking for a reason to HURT him, but some kind of response to another HBP was in the back of his mind. I think describing the latter as the former is a stretch, and claiming it is something we know is not something I could do, at least absent much more information.
G) Greinke hit Quentin. This happened. It was on a pitch that was up and in, though not too up and not too in. But it wasn't a case of QUentin getting hit because he was hanging over the plate either. Greinke did, in fact, hit Carlos Quentin with a ball insidethe batter's box.
H) Quentin spouted off to Greinke. And did so aggressively.
I) Greinke said something back.
J) Quentin, as many guys have done, charged Greinke.
K) Greinke subsequently got hurt in the scrum, though it didn't appear to be from direct contact with Quentin.

I think Quentin should have gotten a much longer punishment. Eight games is way too light. I find the idea that he's got more issues than Milton Bradley or should be run out of the game to be ludicrous. And the "he went into the game looking for a fight, so the punishment should be stiffer" argument really doesn't work for me. Then again, I also don't support the idea of hate crimes. Punish the crime, not the reason we think the guy committed the crime.

I also don't have much sympathy for Greinke. He knew Quentin had a hard-on for him. He hit him with a pitch. Had he been interested in avoiding a confrontation, he could have made some kind of concilatory gesture ("Sorry Carlos," "My bad,") rather than the mouthing off he appeared to do.

When the whole thing happened, I was curious why a guy who gets hit so frequently suddenly reacted the way he did. I found that fascinating, which is what I've been discussing most of this time. At no point was I defending Quentin, but merely trying to understand how this happened. I feel I have a better grasp now than I did beforehand, though I don't imagine I'll ever know for certain.


This pretty much sums it up for me, with one exception. I don't necessarily think Quentin should have gotten a much longer punishment, unless the argument is for longer suspensions for mound chargers in general. I think he deserved a punishment in line with previous punishments for mound chargers. That is pretty much my problem with a lot of the hate towards Quentin. I have read every word in all of the posts before this one, and still don't see why Quentin's transgression is worse than previous mound chargers.

I don't think he went into the game wanting to "hurt" Greinke. I think he went into the game wanting to defend himself, should the occasion arise. Aren't lots of previous mound charging incidents based in part on previous beanings or near-beanings? Doesn't that indicate that they were likely somewhat premeditated as well?

Is Quentin really the first player to think "that's it, next time that guy hits me I'm gonna get him"? Please.
   71. vivaelpujols Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:08 AM (#4414337)
I don't necessarily think Quentin should have gotten a much longer punishment, unless the argument is for longer suspensions for mound chargers in general. I think he deserved a punishment in line with previous punishments for mound chargers. That is pretty much my problem with a lot of the hate towards Quentin. I have read every word in all of the posts before this one, and still don't see why Quentin's transgression is worse than previous mound chargers.


Question for you guys.. do you think the punishment should reflect intent or the eventual outcome of the brawl? I agree that Quentin was not intending to severely injure Greinke (I think the biggest reason he's an ####### is that he got pissed off when someone hit him when he crowds the plate in the first place), but the fallout from his actions was incredibly damaging to the Dodgers and Greinke.

I think it should be somewhere in between. I wouldn't want to suspend him for the duration of Greinke's injury, but I think 8 games is light. We do the same thing for drunk drivers. If you kill someone driving drunk you don't get the death penalty or life in prison, but you don't just get a DUI either.
   72. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:30 AM (#4414343)
I don't necessarily think Quentin should have gotten a much longer punishment, unless the argument is for longer suspensions for mound chargers in general. I think he deserved a punishment in line with previous punishments for mound chargers. That is pretty much my problem with a lot of the hate towards Quentin. I have read every word in all of the posts before this one, and still don't see why Quentin's transgression is worse than previous mound chargers.

Not all mound charges are created equal. A lot of guys run up and shove the pitcher in the chest or wave their arms around, but you can tell they're expecting to get separated by their teammates pretty quickly. It's like a primate display of aggression. Quentin didn't do that; he lowered his shoulder and plowed into Greinke like a linebacker.
   73. chisoxcollector Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:38 AM (#4414347)
Not all mound charges are created equal. A lot of guys run up and shove the pitcher in the chest or wave their arms around, but you can tell they're expecting to get separated by their teammates pretty quickly. It's like a primate display of aggression. Quentin didn't do that; he lowered his shoulder and plowed into Greinke like a linebacker.


I agree with this. But 8 games is longer than the typical suspension. Coco Crisp got 7 games, reduced to 5 on appeal, for charging James Shields. Kevin Youkilis got 5 games for charging Rick Porcello. These are just two examples of hitters that charged the mound that clearly had intentions of fighting. It seems to me that 5 games is the typical suspension, so Quentin's sentence is 60% beyond the norm.
   74. WSPanic Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:43 AM (#4414349)
A) In 2009, Zack Greinke threw over the head of Carlos Quentin. Such a pitch has a tendency to piss off hitters.


It happened 4 years ago. Same thing happened to Matt Kemp during this game.

If it's such an horrific offense to throw over a players head - he should take his medicine for his pitcher doing the same.
   75. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4414352)
I would lengthen all of the suspensions, but I think the ones for the guys who clearly intended to fight should be much longer than the normal ones. So maybe 10 games for a typical incident and 40 or 50 for a guy like Quentin.
   76. TDF, situational idiot Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4414354)
There's a wide spectrum of what Greinke's intentions were (and of course, we'll never know). It probably ranges from:

Trying to throw a strike that got away from him --> trying to throw an inside pitch --> trying to reclaim the inside area and if Quentin has to dive out of the way, so be it --> wanting Quentin to have to dive out of the way to send a message not to crowd --> hitting Quentin to send that same message --> hitting Quentin to hurt him.
Or, Greinke knew that Quentin would flip out over any inside pitch, so did it to get inside his head.
   77. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2013 at 09:59 AM (#4414355)
don't necessarily think Quentin should have gotten a much longer punishment, unless the argument is for longer suspensions for mound chargers in general.


Yes, I do think all mound charges should be punished more severely. But as Yearrgh said, not all are created equal. Quentin went hard here, not one of those yap, yap, yap, half-hearted set-to. I'd go more games in general, but Quentin would have been on the high end.

It happened 4 years ago. Same thing happened to Matt Kemp during this game.


And as the fight, and post-fight incident stuff showed, Kemp was pretty livid.

If it's such an horrific offense to throw over a players head - he should take his medicine for his pitcher doing the same.


I wouldn't go looking for consistency in ballplayer attitudes on these things. The typical attitudes you see on BTF brawl threads (Your guy was clearly throwing at our guy. Our guy was just trying to work inside and the ball got away. Why would he throw at him in that situation?) are also at work in the dugout, methinks.
   78. chisoxcollector Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:01 AM (#4414357)
Or, Greinke knew that Quentin would flip out over any inside pitch, so did it to get inside his head.


Thank you. I just wish more people would admit that there is a possibility, however slight, that Greinke isn't a complete innocent in this situation.
   79. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:02 AM (#4414358)
#43 Hunt wasn't extreme in terms of getting hit at the start of his career. He came up with a move that made it look like he was trying to avoid the ball while actually twisting to meet the ball. (started using it in the late 60s but didn't really perfect until he got to Montreal)

And it's worth noting that the umpires got tired of it in 1971. He was hit at least a half dozen times in the second half of the season without being awarded first base.

   80. Poulanc Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4414360)
but I think the ones for the guys who clearly intended to fight


Trying to determine intent is probably impossible.
   81. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:06 AM (#4414363)
And it's worth noting that the umpires got tired of it in 1971. He was hit at least a half dozen times in the second half of the season without being awarded first base.


And I'll continue to long for the day that baseball decides that a guy gets hit with a ball in the batter's box with a pitched ball, he gets first base automatically. Why the hell should the batter have to get out of the way of a pitch that shouldn't be thrown there? If you want to scramble out of the way to avoid the HBP, knock yourself out. But if you want to stand there and take your lumps, then first base is yours. Nice and clean.

Now, if you get hit outside the box, that's a different matter, and first base should not be awarded under any circumstances.
   82. Ron J2 Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:09 AM (#4414366)
This situation is crying out for a Landis moment.

I'd consider suspending him for the season and then letting him Vilma his way back in.


You know this would be simple grandstanding right? This would go to arbitration and the arbitrator would rule (as he must) that past suspensions for similar conduct establish the limits of what the commissioner can do here.
   83. Dan The Mediocre Posted: April 15, 2013 at 10:37 AM (#4414383)

And I'll continue to long for the day that baseball decides that a guy gets hit with a ball in the batter's box with a pitched ball, he gets first base automatically. Why the hell should the batter have to get out of the way of a pitch that shouldn't be thrown there? If you want to scramble out of the way to avoid the HBP, knock yourself out. But if you want to stand there and take your lumps, then first base is yours. Nice and clean.

Now, if you get hit outside the box, that's a different matter, and first base should not be awarded under any circumstances.


Works for me.
   84. TomH Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:01 AM (#4414412)
I agree with 81, but would add that
a) we should move the batter's box 2" further away from the plate (move it half an inch one year, another the next, etc. to make sure we test for effects and not over do it), and
b) getting hit on your body armor should only be a ball, not an HBP. You want to protect your pretty little body, fine, but then you lose the HBP. Maybe we'd have less armor.
   85. TomH Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:02 AM (#4414413)
(edit:) and maybe if people didn't hang over the plate some umps wouldn't call as many strikes on pitches 3" outside!?
   86. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4414417)
And I'll continue to long for the day that baseball decides that a guy gets hit with a ball in the batter's box with a pitched ball, he gets first base automatically. Why the hell should the batter have to get out of the way of a pitch that shouldn't be thrown there? If you want to scramble out of the way to avoid the HBP, knock yourself out. But if you want to stand there and take your lumps, then first base is yours. Nice and clean.

How is that different from what we have today?
   87. Baldrick Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:08 AM (#4414419)
Trying to determine intent is probably impossible.

Tell that to our legal system.

Thank you. I just wish more people would admit that there is a possibility, however slight, that Greinke isn't a complete innocent in this situation.

On the same note, I wish more people would admit that chisoxcollector is stumping for Quentin here because they are best friends who kill puppies together in the offseason. I know there's no evidence for that, and it's wildly outlandish to even suggest. But it's a possibility, however slight. And it really should be part of the conversation.
   88. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4414427)
How is that different from what we have today?


Players do, on rare occasion, get denied first base when they get hit. Others go through a charade of trying to avoid getting hit, even if they're not. I think both of these are silly.

Moreover, it works when coupled with the other idea, that players hit outside the box should not get their base. The idea is it's the location of the pitch that should matter on whether a batter gets first base upon being hit, not the actions of the batter.
   89. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4414448)
Players do, on rare occasion, get denied first base when they get hit.

But it's so rare that the "you must attempt to get out of the way" rule is almost irrelevant.

Trying to determine intent is probably impossible.

Maybe "intended" was the wrong word; it's more about actions. i.e., it's not that hard to draw a distinction between the guys who charge and posture and the ones who charge and fight.
   90. SoSH U at work Posted: April 15, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4414451)
But it's so rare that the "you must attempt to get out of the way" rule is almost irrelevant.


Then why keep it around? For the once a season that some umpire arbitrarily decides Nyjer Morgan or Joe Crede wasn't making an effort to get out of the way.
   91. chisoxcollector Posted: April 15, 2013 at 12:34 PM (#4414497)
On the same note, I wish more people would admit that chisoxcollector is stumping for Quentin here because they are best friends who kill puppies together in the offseason. I know there's no evidence for that, and it's wildly outlandish to even suggest. But it's a possibility, however slight. And it really should be part of the conversation.


Please. Evidence has been presented, you just don't find it convincing. But that isn't the same thing as no evidence.
   92. geonose Posted: April 15, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4414953)
J) Quentin, as many guys have done, charged Greinke.

Where do you get that? I don't believe Greinke has ever been charged before.

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