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Tuesday, March 12, 2013

Mark Grace on serving time in jail: ‘It’s my fault’

Dutch courage is Grace under pressure.

“In this world of blame game, it’s like Democrats and Republicans blame each other, countries blame each other … (but) I did this,” Grace said Monday after throwing batting practice to Diamondback minor leaguers. “The Diamondbacks didn’t do anything wrong. The cop didn’t screw me. The judge didn’t screw me. The prosecutor didn’t screw me. It’s a lesson learned, and especially out here. These laws out here, they don’t mess around. I knew that.

“You can sit here and make all the excuses you want. But at the end of the day, it’s my fault. I did it, and I’m going to pay my debt to the state of Arizona and be done with it. And it will never happen again. I can promise you it will never happen again, because if it happens again I’m going to prison for like two years, and my children deserve better than that. My friends deserve better than that.

“I’m going to be better for it. It sucks. I’m not going to kid you. But you know what? I’m a big boy, and I always try to teach my kids accountability, so I have to be accountable, too, and accept the fact I made a bad decision and I’m paying the price for it.”

...Grace isn’t sure if he’ll get another broadcasting job but said he enjoys working with young players who need coaching. The hardest part so far has been missing his sons, Preston and 12-year-old Jackson, playing against each other in a youth baseball league game.

Both of the youngsters understand he’s paying a big price for his mistake.

“They know it, they get it and they understand it,” he said. “I’m setting a bad, yet good example for them. If you break the law, you pay the price. ‘Don’t do what Dad did.’”

Repoz Posted: March 12, 2013 at 09:13 AM | 329 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cubs, diamondbacks

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   201. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: March 13, 2013 at 09:02 PM (#4387969)
This was not a bad part of town, this was a quiet residential area. But that's San Francisco, or at least it was (and I don't think it's gotten better). Much of the city is dirty and relatively run-down. The homelessness problem is bad, the crime only seems OK because Oakland is so much worse. Of the people I knew when I lived there, probably 25% had run-ins with some kind of criminal element. Cars broken into, homes broken into, mugged, assaulted in the street, raped, etc.

Where did your friend live? SF is pretty average for crime in general. It has a low murder rate, low burglary rate and one of the lowest rape rates in the country.
   202. Canker Soriano Posted: March 13, 2013 at 09:14 PM (#4387976)
Where did your friend live? SF is pretty average for crime in general. It has a low murder rate, low burglary rate and one of the lowest rape rates in the country.

Twin Peaks/Diamond Heights area. The apartment I was looking at when I was warned not to park on the street was in the SOMA district.

They weren't bad neighborhoods, which is what made it kind of surprising. If you're living in Bayview or down by the Alemany projects, I think you'd expect some crime. When I was moving out here, before I knew anything about the city, I called a place that turned out to be in the Tenderloin. The guy who owned the apartment building talked to me for about 30 seconds, said "Dude, you really don't want to live here. It's awful," then hung up.
   203. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: March 13, 2013 at 09:25 PM (#4387981)
Twin Peaks/Diamond Heights area.

Weird. I lived there for about a year and a half. Never had any problem with anything. My main complaint was that it was a hideously boring neighborhood (with great views). SOMA, on the other hand, can be tweaky at night because it empties out and it's right next to the Tenderloin/Civic Center/6th Street areas. I would be cautious about parking overnight on the street there.
   204. Squash Posted: March 13, 2013 at 10:08 PM (#4388008)
I don't know if this question has been addressed, but I would suspect it's because the person you're talking to in the car is paying some attention to your behavior and the surroundings and can take cues from both. For example, they probably stop talking when you're merging onto the highway, when they perceive that you're stressed out behind the wheel, etc.

This may be part of it, but I suspect there's more. A very significant amount of human interaction is nonverbal, body language and all that. My suspicion would be that when you're talking on the phone, i.e. to someone who's not there, you have to concentrate harder to communicate with them. That would certainly seem to mesh with my own experience - it's not just that I'm looking for cues in other places, but that I'm literally less aware of what's going on around me. Again, I think it would be interesting to hook people up to MRIs and see what the difference is - I'm guessing it would be significant as a whole set of communication cues would be missing in one from the other.
   205. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 13, 2013 at 10:40 PM (#4388025)
“In this world of blame game, it’s like Democrats and Republicans blame each other,...


I suppose it's possible Grace really is this stupid.
   206. Howie Menckel Posted: March 13, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4388036)
Once was on a guys' baseball weekend in a major city that is irrelevant to the tale, and was with a pal who had a buddy who was a hardcore Wall St guy.

This guy sees a homeless person, and says he'll give him a buck for every pushup he does. The guy on the street is pleased, and I see a dollar bill tossed to the ground for each one done.

Horrific, I know.

And the two people involved in the transaction I witnessed could not have been happier.
The guy who did the pushups was not in terrible shape, so he made dozens of dollars just like that.

What the hell the moral of that story is - you tell me?
I was left slackjawed...

   207. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 13, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4388038)
I lived in Oakland and parked on the street and my car would constantly get the locks messed up from people trying to break into it. The solution to this problem was to leave it unlocked


Of the few instructions to me by the Hertz/Avis rental agent in St. Martin/St. Maarten to me was 'Leave nothing of value in your car and keep your doors unlocked at all times.' Double take, 'Unlocked?' Yes, if you don't I guarantee you will have your car broken into whether you have something of value or not. Sure enough at dusk one night I was on a balcony and could see down towards a small parking lot and there's some dude rummaging into my rental. I quietly laughed to myself.
   208. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: March 13, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4388039)
What the hell the moral of that story is -


Your pal's buddy was Ted DiBiase?
   209. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 13, 2013 at 11:38 PM (#4388050)
Where did your friend live? SF is pretty average for crime in general. It has a low murder rate, low burglary rate and one of the lowest rape rates in the country.

Well, guys tend to be harder to rape than girls.
   210. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:19 AM (#4388064)
When I was moving out here, before I knew anything about the city, I called a place that turned out to be in the Tenderloin. The guy who owned the apartment building talked to me for about 30 seconds, said "Dude, you really don't want to live here. It's awful," then hung up.

I've lived in the Tenderloin for over seven years now, and I really like it: my place is in no way fancy (20's Art Deco studio), but it's quiet, sunny, plenty big enough, and convenient to transit, entertainment, food, all that. I also enjoy the neighborhood's terrible reputation, because it keeps the gentrifying riff-raff away. Some of the homeless folks crap on the sidewalk, because they don't really have anyplace else to go (YOU try to find a public restroom in downtown SF after the Main Library closes), so you gotta watch your step. And it's pretty common to see somebody smoking crack as I walk to or from BART. So, yes, there are drug addicts and drug dealers - but they mess with each other, not with me. Yes, there are hookers and probably pimps - same deal, nobody messes with me. And the touristy stuff is a few blocks away, so the panhandlers go over there, instead of here. Maybe the TL is a bad neighborhood, but it's MY bad neighborhood.

Also, getting back to the "public transit" subthread, it is a GREAT place to live without a car. BART and Muni are close, many many bus lines pass within a few blocks, it's near Union Square hotels so it's one of the few spots in SF you can get a cab anytime day or night, and there are a half-dozen CityCarshare pods within a mile of me (a non-profit hippie Zipcar, basically). Even the bicycling has improved exponentially over the last 10, 15 years, with an excellent citizen advocacy group (the SF Bike Coalition) working to move the city toward ever-more, and safer, bike lanes.
   211. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:43 AM (#4388073)
#206 - some guys I went to high school with posted a video of themselves doing the same thing a few years ago. It reminded me why I didn't hang out with them back then (and for what it's worth, I am the Wall Street guy).
   212. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: March 14, 2013 at 08:18 AM (#4388133)
There are plenty of necessary reasons to have a car or truck, but after necessity, the reasons are pretty shallow.

Reading Jack Carter's posts is like listening to a four-year-old girl stomping her little foot and screeching, "I am TOO the queen of the space unicorns...!!"

While it's a nice idea that all calls from cars should be banned, it will never happen. Once the technology moves forward like that, it going to be very difficult to eliminate it completely. It would be like trying to turn off the internet.

Yep. Ain't no going back.
   213. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 09:07 AM (#4388150)
Obviously having a car is a great luxury and it makes life a lot easier. That's a separate debate from whether it's necessary to have cars and whether the benefits outweigh the costs. Getting groceries? You could easily do that on the bus, how do you think people who don't have cars do it? Going camping with your family? Is that really a necessity? Besides you don't need a car, just go backpacking. I currently don't have a car (I go to college in Eugene, Oregon, so I can ride a bike to anywhere near the school) and while it makes doing certain things very difficult (such as going to Target or Best Buy or somewhere) it doesn't really impair my life to any significant degree. I have no doubt that when you have a family these things get more difficult, but again there are plenty of poor families who don't have a car who are able to get by.

Do the benefits outweigh the costs? It's hard to say. I don't think driving deaths are very significant, I'm guessing the environmental effects and much more damaging in the long run. Of course the global trend is to increase the amount of cars in every developing nation, so there's really no way to reverse it.
   214. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 09:38 AM (#4388171)
That's a separate debate from whether it's necessary to have cars

Going camping with your family? Is that really a necessity?


Well, of course it's not necessary on the most basic level. Nothing is necessary but food, clothing, and shelter. College isn't necessary either. Neither is your bike. Is it necessary to live life at a level beyond mere survival? For many, yes it is. There is a hell of a lot of difference between a college kid living in Eugene Oregon or a childless couple living in NY, and a family of 4 living in Salina KS (which you seem to acknowledge).

My initial comment was prompted by someone posting a study that showed if we eliminate ALL private vehicle ownership, we could fund a massive public transit system which would serve everybody. Someone suggested that if you need to go to the lumber yard, rent a truck. Yeah, you could do that, and now your 15 minute trip to Home Depot now takes 3 hours and costs 50 bucks. Someone said don't shop for the week, shop for 1-2 days and take the bus. Great, so now your hour and a half weekly shopping is now going to take 5 hours. And so on.
   215. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4388184)
This guy sees a homeless person, and says he'll give him a buck for every pushup he does. The guy on the street is pleased, and I see a dollar bill tossed to the ground for each one done.

Horrific, I know.

And the two people involved in the transaction I witnessed could not have been happier.
The guy who did the pushups was not in terrible shape, so he made dozens of dollars just like that.

What the hell the moral of that story is - you tell me?
I was left slackjawed...


Why is that horrific? The Wall St. guy paid the homeless guy to perform a service and both parties felt like they got value from the transaction. There was no force or coercion involved, and we're talking about pushups here; it's not like he tried to get the guy to have sex with a donkey or something.

In your story the homeless guy came away with ~25 bucks and some health enhancing exercise. Would it really have been better if everybody just did the usual "walk past with averted eyes" thing?
   216. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4388185)
Neither is your bike. Is it necessary to live life at a level beyond mere survival? For many, yes it is. There is a hell of a lot of difference between a college kid living in Eugene Oregon or a childless couple living in NY, and a family of 4 living in Salina KS (which you seem to acknowledge).


I don't just seem to acknowledge it, I specifically did acknowledge it. As for my bike, there aren't any adverse effects on other people from me riding it (if someone dies from an accident, it's likely going to be me). That's the whole issue here. Do the detrimental effects of owning and driving a personal car outweigh the benefits? I have no idea. What you're essentially saying is, "but, but, it'll be haaaard to do stuff without a car".
   217. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:04 AM (#4388186)
In your story the homeless guy came away with ~25 bucks and some health enhancing exercise. Would it really have been better if everybody just did the usual "walk past with averted eyes" thing?


Haha, agreed.
   218. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:10 AM (#4388191)
What the hell the moral of that story is - you tell me?


Some rich people should be set on fire?

(Preferably after being doused with gasoline.)
   219. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:17 AM (#4388194)
What you're essentially saying is, "but, but, it'll be haaaard to do stuff without a car".


Yes, just like it would hard for you to make a decent living without a college education. Neither is necessary for basic survival, but both are necessary (for many, not all) to flourish. If I have to spend 4 extra hours a week doing my grocery shopping, that's 4 fewer hours I have to do something meaningful (like post on BTF).
   220. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:40 AM (#4388211)
#210 - I wonder what the difference between 1996 and 2006 is where you are, because in the late 90s the Tenderloin was damned frightening, even in the middle of the day. (As a comparison, prior to that I had lived in South Central Los Angeles, which even with random midnight gunfire wasn't as nerve-wracking.)

#215 - Is there any type of transaction in particular that you do find exploitative, if not the transaction of homeless pushups for the entertainment of Wall Street? (And, of course, a dollar a pushup. Woohoo!)
   221. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:41 AM (#4388212)
Yes, just like it would hard for you to make a decent living without a college education. Neither is necessary for basic survival, but both are necessary (for many, not all) to flourish.


You keep equating things which have no detrimental effects to things which do have detrimental effects. Going to college doesn't effect anyone but myself (and my parents). If cars were not dangerous and bad for the environment, there would be no issue.
   222. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4388213)
Getting groceries? You could easily do that on the bus, how do you think people who don't have cars do it?


They do it by living somewhere other than where I live, for starters. One thing that the Just Ride the Bus Brigade will apparently never understand is that these options are not available for everyone.

Not to mention that it takes me about five minutes to drive to the supermarket, where I can buy more than a week's worth of groceries in fifteen minutes, and drive back home in another five. If I rode the non-existent bus, I'd have to wait at the bus stop, wait on the bus as it makes stops along and out of the way, and could only bring a few days' worth of stuff, so I'd get to make this enjoyable trip three or four times more often. In other words, riding the bus would suck, which is why it doesn't exist, since there's no demand for things that suck.
   223. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4388217)
One thing that the Just Ride the Bus Brigade will apparently never understand is that these options are not available for everyone.


I'm not saying that you or anyone specifically should ride the bus, I'm saying that the elimination of cars in favor of public transportation might be more beneficial to humanity.

In other words, riding the bus would suck, which is why it doesn't exist, since there's no demand for things that suck.


Yeah no ####.
   224. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:46 AM (#4388218)
since there's no demand for things that suck.


My entire worldview is undergoing drastic readjustment even as I type.
   225. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4388221)
I'm saying that the elimination of cars in favor of public transportation might be more beneficial to humanity.


In what way? All I can see are massive inconveniences, which is certainly no benefit.
   226. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4388223)
All I can see are massive inconveniences, which is certainly no benefit.


Really? That's *all* you see? You don't also see fewer accidents, a much improved environment, longer survival of the human race? Or are you being sarcastic?
   227. Canker Soriano Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:01 AM (#4388227)
there's no demand for things that suck.

And yet people still pay to watch the Mets.
   228. BDC Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:03 AM (#4388228)
Just back to the thread after walking half a mile to get a haircut. Fixing to walk three miles to work and back this afternoon … though I admit that in between I might drive to the mall :)

it's virtually impossible to leave that much space from the car in front of you, because every time you get close to achieving that level of distance, someone will just jump in front of you, thinking that this is suddenly an open lane

That's actually what's supposed to happen. People will fill in the gap, and then you drop back (without suddenly slowing, just very gradually opening a distance) and then someone else fills in, and you repeat. I don't know why this works, and it may be my imagination, but it seems to work. You create room for the impatient by being more patient yourself, releasing the pressure on potential bottlenecks.

Where this does not work is Manhattan, as a talkative cabbie once explained to me in an impromptu driving lesson. The combination of the tight grid and an incessant number of opportunistic pedestrians, cabdrivers, and cyclists mean that tailgating is actually the best way to drive in the city (though it obviously takes alertness and willingness to brake suddenly). It's rather like the best way to get up the stairs from the subway platform: not to be aware of others' paths and to let them in, but to concentrate on putting one foot in front of the other, in a straight-line path to where you want to go.
   229. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:08 AM (#4388232)
You don't also see fewer accidents, a much improved environment, longer survival of the human race?


Maybe, no, and no, respectively.
   230. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4388237)
Just back to the thread after walking half a mile to get a haircut. Fixing to walk three miles to work and back this afternoon …


My walk for a haircut is about 100 yards, I guess (I'm terrible at estimating distances) -- across the parking lot from the office. Though of course I drive 5 miles to get here. Even a 3-mile walk would pretty much kill me, less because I weigh too damned much than because I have really bad feet. (The orthotics devices I wear turned 27 in January, & one of them has been splitting in two for years & years between tape jobs. Finally seeing a podiatrist Monday morning about a replacement set.)
   231. Canker Soriano Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4388238)
I've lived with a car and (when I was in New York for about 5 years) without one. I grew up in a car-required area - very spread out, no mass transit to speak of - and you do get used to being able to hop in your vehicle whenever you'd like to do whatever you want wherever you feel like going. That's a kind of freedom that is very hard to give up...

Until you move to New York and they tell you it will cost $400/month to park in the garage at your apartment building. And insurance will be 3-4x what you were paying elsewhere. I weighed the risks/benefits, and chose to leave my old car with my parents and go it without. I think in New York, it works. I walked everywhere, and places that were too far afield, I took the subway. I took trains to New Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia. The Jitney to Long Island. I walked 40 blocks for specialty groceries on nice days, and brought my little old lady pull cart to put my bags in. I could count on 1 hand the number of times where I really missed having a car, and they typically involved paying a business $150 to deliver something that was too big for me to carry, but which easily would have fit into my old car. Beyond that, if I'd stayed I think I'd have gone on living happily forever without one.

But I also know not every place is New York. It's probably the most well mass transit connected city in the country. I've lived in other large cities where you'd have been sunk without a car. My sister lived in Houston for awhile - to get to the nearest halfway-decent grocery store would have been a 10 minute walk to the bus stop, then a bus ride, transfer, and another bus ride, plus another 5 minute walk to the store. Getting to her job would have been a 45-minute commute for a drive that normally took 10 minutes. That's 5 hours a week lost, or the equivalent of about 10 days a year spent just doing extra commuting.

I'm sympathetic to the anti-car movement, for all of the reasons expressed in this thread. But most cities are not built that way, and the process of reverse engineering them to make mass transit convenient enough that giving up a car becomes a viable option takes time and commitment. Once you get off the coasts, the circumference of the circle encompassing your daily life spreads out exponentially. Southern and midwestern cities are enormous in size - to get from one end to the other using only mass transit would often require an almost Herculean effort.
   232. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:31 AM (#4388244)
My son has been out of school for two years in Boston without a car (now in Brighton). His friend/roommate does have one, so he is not totally carless. He has a 30 minute bus ride/walk to work. Many nights, he is the closing manager at the 9-plex, and misses the last bus (midnightish) and walks an hour home. I suggested a scooter but he scoffed. He is the king of the $1 Bolt/Megabus ticket when comes down to Philly to visit.
   233. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM (#4388254)
walks an hour home


Just out of curiosity, how many miles/blocks is that?
   234. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4388258)
There are plenty of necessary reasons to have a car or truck, but after necessity, the reasons are pretty shallow.

Reading Jack Carter's posts is like listening to a four-year-old girl stomping her little foot and screeching, "I am TOO the queen of the space unicorns...!!"


Given that you haven't displayed even a rudimentary understanding of what I've written, your whiny little bitch, 'I want what I want exactly when I want it' WAHHHHH act got old immediately.

I get that you find the idea of intelligent balance in matters of transportation somehow horribly threatening. You can stop whimpering now.
   235. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4388262)
gef, around 4 miles.
   236. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4388264)
And the two people involved in the transaction I witnessed could not have been happier.

The guy who did the pushups was not in terrible shape, so he made dozens of dollars just like that.

What the hell the moral of that story is - you tell me?
I was left slackjawed...


I went to high school with some guys like this. They all went into law and finance.
   237. just plain joe Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4388283)
This discussion pops up here with clockwork regularity every year or so. As numerous people have pointed out, going carless is a viable option in selected metropolitan areas, and for the rest of the country, not so much. I live in a typical city of approximately 130,000 people. I could theoretically take the bus to work (the bus station is only a block or so from my office). However, in order to do so I would need to walk 7 or 8 blocks, cross a six lane road during morning rush hour, wait however long for the bus and then ride to work. Coming back home in the evening would entail the same steps in reverse, with the added bonus of taking additional time and trouble if I wanted to run errands on the way home. This morning it was 24 degrees when I left for work, I am not willing to stand waiting for the bus when it is that cold.
   238. BDC Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4388288)
most cities are not built that way

I too have gone back and forth on car ownership. I was born in Chicago and my parents didn't own a car till we moved downstate, when I was in the third grade. I later lived without one in North Jersey and in Queens, in the 1980s. For quite a while in the 2000s I lived in Great Neck, LI, where my then-wife had a car and I did not; I rarely even drove hers till the last few years we lived there, when I got (somewhat) used to driving in Nassau and Queens, and even Manhattan. The reaches of Queens east of Flushing (served by the LIRR but not the subway) represent for me the cusp between it being useful to have a car and it being more of a pain in the neck to have one. Cars are an irritating necessity further out, and then there comes a point when you get farther from the city in any direction and the car becomes a perceived convenience again. Certainly it's a convenience in Texas, but that's, as you say, because the roads are wide and there's easy free parking everywhere. In Great Neck, by contrast, I would spend half my life looking for a parking place, only to get a ticket the next morning because I hadn't taken alternate-side into account …

   239. zenbitz Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:34 PM (#4388289)
I lived in Oakland and parked on the street and my car would constantly get the locks messed up from people trying to break into it. The solution to this problem was to leave it unlocked.


This is what we do as well if we leave it for more than a couple hours. Although I had to get a club because someone managed to hot wire my 240D (I got it back undamaged though... guy just needed a zip car to go to work).
Although one morning, my wife found someone sleeping in our van, said person was WAY more scared than my wife was!
   240. zenbitz Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4388292)
I've lived in the Tenderloin for over seven years now,


Yeah it was 95% gentrified by 2000 or so. Unless you are RIGHT next to Market.
   241. base ball chick Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4388293)
231. Canker Soriano Posted: March 14, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4388238)


My sister lived in Houston for awhile - to get to the nearest halfway-decent grocery store would have been a 10 minute walk to the bus stop, then a bus ride, transfer, and another bus ride, plus another 5 minute walk to the store. Getting to her job would have been a 45-minute commute for a drive that normally took 10 minutes.


- yep
this is houston, texas. the city goes about 60 miles east to west and about 70 miles north to south. this is not manhattan.

the nearest grocery store to us is about 3 miles. there is no bus line that would take me anywheres near the store. exactly how much groceries do you guys think that one small woman can carry at a time? just one gallon of milk weighs 8 lbs.

there are very few jobs you could go to where a straight bus ride would work. at least here. almost any bus ride to almost any job is going to take a whole lot longer than a car, houston traffic or not.

and speaking of buses, you know there aren't very many school buses here in houston and most parents are expected to drive their kids to daycare/preschool/school, right? you have ANY idea how much it would cost and how many MORE buses you would need? you want to get rid of all sports or any other after school activities? how are your kidZ gonna get home?

as for missing the last bus, do you think that any woman is going to walk home 4 miles ALONE at midnight? I mean, unless she is trying to commit suicide?

too many of you guys who are talking about no cars/taking the subway/bus lines - are talking about being single, MALE, and not having a family. or you are students. and also having jobs where you just work one shift, get out on time, there is a bus from where you work to where you live. lots of us can't afford to live where we work, you know.

what do you do if you are, say, a plumber and need to take tools with you to a job? take all that stuff on a bus?
   242. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4388302)
what do you do if you are, say, a plumber and need to take tools with you to a job? take all that stuff on a bus?


If we can get rid of all the cars, we can get rid of all the plumbing, too.
   243. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4388304)
Once a panhandler gave me a terrible hybrid story - he locked his kids in his car back in Cleveland and needed money for a bus to get back there. So I offered him $10 if he told the next guy that walked by that he needed money because Tony Danza was holding his family hostage. He did and did such a wonderful job that I gave him a twenty - I was trying to not to die holding in laughter watching the dude in a brown three-piece suit awkwardly walk-running away.
   244. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: March 14, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4388307)
If we can get rid of all the cars, we can get rid of all the plumbing, too.

I'm tired of lazy Americans demanding all this wasteful sewage nonsense when a lot of people have the ability to poop in a giant hole dug in their yard quite easily. Don't work for your toilet, man!
   245. GregD Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:03 PM (#4388313)
too many of you guys who are talking about no cars/taking the subway/bus lines - are talking about being single, MALE, and not having a family. or you are students. and also having jobs where you just work one shift, get out on time, there is a bus from where you work to where you live. lots of us can't afford to live where we work, you know.
I think (or hope) everyone agrees with you that there are areas, Lisa, where it's just not possible or reasonable. It was policy--some understandable, some obviously foolish--that helped make this so, and some people think it would be wise to start reconfiguring policies so that the balance tipped. More places where it would be possible to live without a car, more people (never all obviously) in those areas who in fact don't. If you have transit hubs and you build up at those hubs, and you run good transit, some of the factors you talk about it start to change. There are suburbs of DC where people rarely drive (though they do own cars) and that would have been unthinkable 15-20 years ago.
   246. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4388317)
what do you do if you are, say, a plumber and need to take tools with you to a job?

Obligatory: Duh, you carry them in your big ass crack!

Seriously, if my son were my daughter and she worked the job he did, one way or another, she'd have some kind of car, we'd make damned sure of it.
   247. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4388318)
Once a panhandler gave me a terrible hybrid story - he locked his kids in his car back in Cleveland and needed money for a bus to get back there.


How far away was Cleveland from where you encountered the guy?
   248. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4388321)
exactly how much groceries do you guys think that one small woman can carry at a time? just one gallon of milk weighs 8 lbs.


Ok I weigh like 130 pounds, so not much bigger than the average woman, and I can carry 5 bags (milk, orange juice, bread, etc. does a gallon milk really weigh 8 pounds?) back to my house. Granted, my house is 3 blocks away from the store, but it would take you, what, an hour and a half every week and a little bit of labor to bring back 5 bags? Or you could just steal a freaking shopping cart and bring as much stuff as you want.

and speaking of buses, you know there aren't very many school buses here in houston and most parents are expected to drive their kids to daycare/preschool/school, right? you have ANY idea how much it would cost and how many MORE buses you would need? you want to get rid of all sports or any other after school activities? how are your kidZ gonna get home?


What they can't bike? You act like cars were handed down from god and have existed since the beginning of time. You can accuse us of being biased because we are single, or MALE, but you're totally living in the 1st world here, where any decrease in privilege or luxury is unacceptable. There is no doubt that cars make all of our lives easier. But it's obviously possible to live without them. The question is whether or not the costs outweigh the benefits.

Maybe, no, and no, respectively.


Climate change denying. Good talk.
   249. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:31 PM (#4388325)
but you're totally living in the 1st world here


Not really. She's in Texas.
   250. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4388326)

The weight of a gallon of milk is only slightly greater than a gallon of water, about 3% more. A US gallon with 2% milkfat weighs about 8.4 pounds, compared to 8.6 pounds for "whole milk" and 8.35 pounds for a gallon of water.
Milk is 87 % water, thus a gallon of milk will not differ from milk much.
The 8.6 lbs/gal factor (whole milk) is correct. The weight increases as fat is removed.

By weight:
Milk : 8.6 lb/gallon
Condensed milk : 9.4 lb/gallon
Cream 8.28 lb/gallon

* The British or Imperial Gallon is defined as exactly 10 pounds of water. You can convert the above figures by using 1 Imperial Gallon = 1.201 US gallons.


And now you know ...
   251. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4388328)
#210 - I wonder what the difference between 1996 and 2006 is where you are, because in the late 90s the Tenderloin was damned frightening, even in the middle of the day. (As a comparison, prior to that I had lived in South Central Los Angeles, which even with random midnight gunfire wasn't as nerve-wracking.)

I couldn't really say. In the late 90's I was living on Shotwell in the Mission - an area with a similarly terrible reputation.

Yeah it was 95% gentrified by 2000 or so. Unless you are RIGHT next to Market.

Hang on, let me walk outside my building and let the guy lying down on the sidewalk to scrape crack crumbs out of the edges that HE DONE BEEN GENTRIFIED FOR THIRTEEN YEARS ALREADY.
Maybe he can get a job at Zynga, or something.
   252. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4388330)
I'm saying that the elimination of cars in favor of public transportation might be more beneficial to humanity.


It's all about safety with you then. Screw the convenience, enjoyment, efficiency factor. It'll make us safer. Well, a lot of things will make us safer. Let's ban alcohol, tobacco, fatty foods, salty snacks. Let's make people exercise and let's monitor their weight. Let's ban all unnecessary activity which could cause harm. Ban all sports, except for the mandatory session on a treadmill. We certainly don't need to be skiing or scuba diving. Commercial fishing is one of the most dangerous occupations. Let's ban that for the sake of humanity and eat only farm raised seafood. Trains are safer than airplanes, especially with no pesky autos on the road anymore, and people don't really need to go from the US to Europe or Asia, so let's ban all air travel.

In fact, let's invest all out money into inventing a robot that can do all our work for us, all our farming, energy procurement, infrastructure maintenance, and so on, and just require every stay at home and never leave. They can interact with each other on Facebook, skype, and words with friends. If they get sick, the robot doctor will visit them. Think how safe everyone will be then.

Will banning all private vehicles make my life safer? Probably a tiny bit, but then it's hard to comprehend the possible unintended consequences of such a ridiculous hypothetical. It might not. But let's say it does. It makes my life .05%, even 0.1% safer. At what tradeoff? Who would want to make that tradeoff, even given the premise that elimination of private vehicles would allow a massively improved mass transit system that would make any rural small town look like Manhattan? Only people like you who don't use a car and can't envision ever needing one. How noble of you.

   253. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4388332)
does a gallon milk really weigh 8 pounds?


No, it weighs more. More like 8.5 pounds.
   254. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4388333)
Climate change denying. Good talk.


There's no talk to be had. I arrange my transportation to suit my life. The anti-car camp is interested in rearranging other people's lives to suit their transportation preferences. They can go pound sand.
   255. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:40 PM (#4388334)
Or you could just steal a freaking shopping cart and bring as much stuff as you want.


How do you get that on the bus?
   256. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4388340)
I'm saying that the elimination of cars in favor of public transportation might be more beneficial to humanity.

It's all about safety with you then. Screw the convenience, enjoyment, efficiency factor. It'll make us safer.


I'm with you on most everything, Miserlou, but I think equating "beneficial to humanity" specifically to "safety" is kind of a 6-step layup. I must call you for traveling.

(I have a car, I drive my car, I love driving my car. Nevertheless I absolutely think that less driving overall would be more awesome for everyone as a whole. Much in the same way I think more items per plastic bag and a lack of infinite cardboard toilet paper rolls would be better for everyone as a whole.)
   257. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 01:55 PM (#4388342)
How do you get that on the bus?


With your shrink-ray, of course.
   258. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4388344)
Nevertheless I absolutely think that less driving overall would be more awesome for everyone as a whole.


Absolutely, and I've said as much in this thread. I'm arguing that many times, for many people, a car is necessary, and people have taken issue with what is necessary. "You don't HAVE to go camping, or if you do, you don't need a car. Go backpacking (presumably starting and ending at your home)." You don't HAVE to buy a weeks worth of groceries. Just go every other day (like I do)." "How many times do you really need to go to Home Depot (I never do. I live in downtown Chicago and rent)?"

Yes, banning cars would be a benefit, but it would not be a net benefit.
   259. Kiko Sakata Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4388352)
Or you could just steal a freaking shopping cart and bring as much stuff as you want.


Here in Chicago all grocery carts at pretty much all grocery stores have an anti-theft device where the wheels lock up if you take them out of the store parking lot. (People who want to carry home more groceries than they can carry bring in their own pull carts, what we here call "granny carts")
   260. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4388357)
Yeah it was 95% gentrified by 2000 or so. Unless you are RIGHT next to Market.
Hang on, let me walk outside my building and let the guy lying down on the sidewalk to scrape crack crumbs out of the edges that HE DONE BEEN GENTRIFIED FOR THIRTEEN YEARS ALREADY.

Somebody's got to be in the other 5%.
   261. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4388358)
It's all about safety with you then.


I said the safety issue is minor. The environmental issue is more concerning to me. Cars require a ridiculous amount of raw material to make, then they run on oil which is a dwindling resources, and then they create smog which hurts air quality (leading to health issues and generally a worse quality of a life) and erodes the ozone layer.

Really we're both talking out of our ass here. We don't know whether the benefit of having a car (ease and more options of activities) outweighs the costs. Certainly the immediate benefits outweigh the immediate costs, but is that all that matters?

I arrange my transportation to suit my life.


The point is that driving a car effects other peoples lives. If cars were perfectly safe and not detrimental to the environment, there would be no discussion.
   262. zenbitz Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:32 PM (#4388361)
Or maybe we have different definitions of the tenderloin? Maybe it's just shrunk? I used to live with my dad in the late 80s at Fell and Octavia. THAT neighborhood no longer has anything approaching an edge.
There are some rough patches in SOMA too, but most of it is pretty yuppified (since I already invoked the 80s).

   263. zenbitz Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:32 PM (#4388362)
Place like Houston are easily solved by charging realistic prices for energy to run A/C, let alone the gas.
   264. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4388363)
Here in Chicago all grocery carts at pretty much all grocery stores have an anti-theft device where the wheels lock up if you take them out of the store parking lot. (People who want to carry home more groceries than they can carry bring in their own pull carts, what we here call "granny carts")


That's the same where I live actually. But you can get around that by lifting the cart on its back wheels. You look like a jackass but it gets the job done.
   265. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4388365)
How do you get that on the bus?

Tie it to the back. The opportunity to ride around town in your grocery cart pulled by a bus is a feature, not a bug.
   266. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4388366)
That's the same where I live actually. But you can get around that by lifting the cart on its back wheels. You look like a jackass but it gets the job done.

The voice of experience?
   267. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4388370)
The voice of experience?


Indeed. The problem then was I didn't have the motivation to bring the cart back the store, so I was stuck with a shopping cart in my backyard (until it mysteriously disappeared).
   268. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4388376)
Or maybe we have different definitions of the tenderloin? Maybe it's just shrunk? I used to live with my dad in the late 80s at Fell and Octavia. THAT neighborhood no longer has anything approaching an edge.

Maybe. Real estate weasels are always trying to call parts of the area "Lower Nob Hill" or something, because the neighborhood is so scaaaaary.

And, yes: in the late 80's I lived at Webster & Page, across the street from the projects that are no longer there.
Sure, you'd hear gunshots, but much more unnerving was hearing the dog fights. It doesn't feel the same now, and I'm TOTALLY FINE WITH THAT.
   269. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4388382)
I have no doubt that when you have a family these things get more difficult, but again there are plenty of poor families who don't have a car who are able to get by.

It may be a surprise to some, but one of the main reasons people acquire an education and work hard, sometimes at jobs that are not that appealing, is that being poor is as an unattractive option.
   270. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4388386)
Given that you haven't displayed even a rudimentary understanding of what I've written, blah blah blah

My, but you take this subject (and yourself) awfully seriously, don't you, my angry little man? There's plenty of whimpering in this thread, Ace, and it ain't coming from me.

Climate change denying. Good talk.

OK, now it's on, b*tch! PETCO, here we come...!
   271. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: March 14, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4388387)

Indeed. The problem then was I didn't have the motivation to bring the cart back the store, so I was stuck with a shopping cart in my backyard (until it mysteriously disappeared).


So, you're saying you're a thief?

Of course, I'm sure you and all the other shopping cart "borrowing" thieves realize that you're negative externalities that must be borne and paid for by all of the rest of us ...
   272. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4388389)
It may be a surprise to some, but one of the main reasons people acquire an education and work hard, sometimes at jobs that are not that appealing, is that being poor is as an unattractive option.


Mind. Blown.

Seriously though, one of the worst parts of being poor is that you have to live near other poor people. One of the first things most people who break out of poverty do is move the hell out the 'hood/barrio/trailer park. Tragically, this often involves a car, perpetuating the dire cycle of automopendency.
   273. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4388393)
It may be a surprise to some, but one of the main reasons people acquire an education and work hard, sometimes at jobs that are not that appealing, is that being poor is as an unattractive option.


Yeah this sentiment hasn't been repeated 30 times already.

Of course, I'm sure you and all the other shopping cart "borrowing" thieves realize that you're negative externalities that must be borne and paid for by all of the rest of us ...


Someday I must pay for my sins against humanity.
   274. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4388398)
I said the safety issue is minor. The environmental issue is more concerning to me. Cars require a ridiculous amount of raw material to make, then they run on oil which is a dwindling resources, and then they create smog which hurts air quality (leading to health issues and generally a worse quality of a life) and erodes the ozone layer.


We're making cars safer and more environmentally friendly all the time. The high price of oil is a big contributor to that. My new car averages 47-48 MPG per tankful. I have a friend who just bought an all electric Tesla. And yes, we both paid extra (her a LOT extra) for that economy. But I felt some sort of duty to minimize my impact. Not all pro car people believe in an inherent right to drive 10 MPG monster pickups wherever we go. I still have an occasional need for my Suburban, and so I still have it. But I also have the means to have a second vehicle, so I got it for 90% of my daily driving. I wish other people who have the means would do the same, but I'm not going to admonish then for not doing so (not to imply that you are doing any such thing), much less propose that they be forced to make a change.
   275. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4388400)
The point is that driving a car effects other peoples lives. If cars were perfectly safe and not detrimental to the environment, there would be no discussion.


If you're interested in a discussion, then propose an alternative that doesn't involve petty theft, massive inconvenience, and wholesale restructuring of the lives of upwards of 95% of the people in the country. I promise that I'd be all ears.
   276. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4388401)
I wish other people who have the means would do the same, but I'm not going to admonish then for not doing so (not to imply that you are doing any such thing), much less propose that they be forced to make a change.


Who's doing that? I wrote earlier..

I'm not saying that you or anyone specifically should ride the bus, I'm saying that the elimination of cars in favor of public transportation might be more beneficial to humanity.


   277. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4388403)
For a couple of years, I lived less than a block from a bus stop, whose route would drop me 50 feet from the front door of where I worked. I took it 0 times. It had a Family Circus Billy Path route so that my commute would have easily doubled. And if I needed to work late, by 6:00 or so it reverted to a once an hour run. And I think of myself as environmentally concerned. It would be very hard for souless-suburban-loving me to give up my car.
   278. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:18 PM (#4388405)
then propose an alternative that doesn't involve petty theft, massive inconvenience, and wholesale restructuring of the lives of upwards of 95% of the people in the country.


Someone already suggested the "granny cart" so there's no need for "petty theft".

It sounds like the only way you can imagine life is if you have a personal vehicle that will allow to go anywhere you want at any time. So I can't think of a way to do that without having a car. But to start, taking the bus or walking or biking or roller blading or whatever floats your boat *whenever possible* would help.
   279. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4388406)
We're making cars safer and more environmentally friendly all the time.

And let's not pretend that the world before automobiles was all that great. There were predictions that New York City's population would peak in the late 19th century because it couldn't accommodate the increased horse manure that would come with greater population. Of course, many of the poor probably found a way to get by without horses.
   280. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4388409)
And let's not pretend that the world before automobiles was all that great


It wasn't that great, but at least it didn't cause trash islands and wasn't headed towards the annihilation of the human race.

Now I personally don't care about the world once I'm dead. If I could afford a car I'd jump on that. But I'm not going to pretend there aren't negative consequences.
   281. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4388410)
But to start, taking the bus or walking or biking or roller blading or whatever floats your boat *whenever possible* would help.


I do. I'm a cyclist.
   282. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:34 PM (#4388414)
It wasn't that great, but at least it didn't cause trash islands and wasn't headed towards the annihilation of the human race.

Amazing GF has always worked in human rights and environment-do-gooding nonprofits, and as she likes to put it, the only good thing about climate change is we'll be long dead when the worst of it happens.
   283. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4388416)
Someone already suggested the "granny cart" so there's no need for "petty theft".

Ah, a business opportunity -- ZipCarts!
   284. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4388419)
the annihilation of the human race.

And this is a bad thing because...? (Seriously, have you seen the human race lately?!)

The one thing I've noticed about enviro-types is that they want public transit...for other people, not themselves. They'll hold onto their cars, because, well, they're good people doing good things, not just a bunch of greedy me-firsters. I mean, you can't expect a fellow to save the planet and juggle transit schedules, now can you?

It's your basic lefty fantasy: get rid of cars today, and the Magic Low-Emissions High-Density Politically Correct Fairlyland appears overnight! ("Why, are those free-range chickens for sale at the Chairman Mao Co-Op?" "Of course they are, silly!")

Look, I like mass transit just fine, even though I live in a place (rural upstate NY) where it's slim and none. But the only way you're going to make it flower is to make it more attractive to the marketplace, and trying to shove it down people's throats isn't very attractive.
   285. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:49 PM (#4388423)
Look, I like mass transit just fine, even though I live in a place (rural upstate NY) where it's slim and none. But the only way you're going to make it flower is to make it more attractive to the marketplace, and trying to shove it down people's throats isn't very attractive.


No doubt. Clearly life is better when you have a car.
   286. just plain joe Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:54 PM (#4388428)
Of course, many of the poor probably found a way to get by without horses.


I suspect that a much higher percentage of poor people (now) own cars than owned horsed back in the day. For one thing, horses require considerable upkeep and must be fed and groomed whether you ride them or not. It has been my experience, at least in the places I've lived, that the only people who didn't drive were the ones who couldn't get a drivers license.
   287. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4388429)
that the only people who didn't drive were the ones who couldn't get a drivers license.


Cars are also pretty expensive when you consider gas and insurance.
   288. Rants Mulliniks Posted: March 14, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4388431)
This guy sees a homeless person, and says he'll give him a buck for every pushup he does. The guy on the street is pleased, and I see a dollar bill tossed to the ground for each one done.

Horrific, I know.


Yeah, not exactly Bumfights.com.
   289. Austin Posted: March 14, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4388438)
I live in the city, and I can tell you that even if cost were no object, I wouldn't want a car. Public transit is more convenient for regular trips because you don't have to worry about parking and traffic, and can read or work on the way. For longer trips, I'd just use ZipCar or a similar service, thereby avoiding some of the tedious aspects of car ownership, such as maintenance.
   290. just plain joe Posted: March 14, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4388447)
Cars are also pretty expensive when you consider gas and insurance.


I'm just saying what I have observed. I have never lived in any large city, I grew up in a small town and have lived in small towns or smallish cities all my life. To be sure poor people aren't the ones driving around in 7 series BMW's or new Hummers; when you see someone driving around in a 30 year old Ford with one headlight, multiple rust spots and a non-functioning muffler, the chances are great that you are observing a poor person who has chosen to drive rather than spend his time taking public transportation. You only need to put gas in the car if you need to drive it somewhere and it is pretty easy, at least here, to purchase insurance long enough to renew the registration and then cancel the policy. If your only assets are a $1000 car and some clothes, the thought of being sued after an accident holds little terror for you.
   291. vivaelpujols Posted: March 14, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4388450)
If your only assets are a $1000 car and some clothes, the thought of being sued after an accident holds little terror for you.


Sounds like a nice life.
   292. Canker Soriano Posted: March 14, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4388458)
Clearly life is better when you have a car.

I spent 4 years in college without a car, and I was never more jealous in my life than I was of guys who had cars and could easily take dates into the city. I was convinced that my total lack of game was a direct result of my lack of wheels.

Then I bought a car, and discovered that life is a #####.
   293. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4388473)
...even though I live in a place (rural upstate NY) where it's slim and none.

If I may, generally, where? I'm in Oneida County currently. No worries if you care not to say, just curious.
   294. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4388475)
the only people who didn't drive were the ones who couldn't get a drivers license.

This may or may not apply to me. I can't get a driver's license in the sense that my internal morality won't let me. I do not have the ability to focus on more than one thing at once and am absolutely convinced that if I were to drive a car I would pose a serious danger to myself and anyone around me.

But I also don't have a license because having a car seems very expensive and it's never really come up as a significant hinderance in my 10 or so years of adult life. Also, living in the UK, and especially spending some time in London, has done little to convince me that driving a car is a sane thing to do. Having a family would obviously change things, though on that score I would again refer you to the first paragraph.
   295. neonwattagelimit Posted: March 14, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4388476)
It's your basic lefty fantasy: get rid of cars today, and the Magic Low-Emissions High-Density Politically Correct Fairlyland appears overnight! ("Why, are those free-range chickens for sale at the Chairman Mao Co-Op?" "Of course they are, silly!")


Who has said this? I don't see anyone in this thread suggesting that it is at all reasonable for us to eliminate all private automobile ownership, immediately, or that doing so would result in the creation of a superconnected public transit paradise, tomorrow. I do see people saying that in an ideal world there would be no private automobile ownership, but that's a different argument. And while I don't think I'd agree with that position, it is defensible.

Personally, I do think it's ridiculous that we (in the US) live in a society where the vast majority of people are forced to drive pretty much anytime they want to go anywhere (unless they want to be massively inconvenienced, at least). People should have options. People - at least in cities - should be able to walk or ride transit if they want to. I think we are very, very gradually inching in that direction, but progress has been far too slow.

I say this as a guy who owns a car even though I don't really NEED one. I like having a car, because it gives me options. But I wouldn't want to be chained to it.
   296. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4388478)
If I may, generally, where? I'm in Oneida County currently. No worries if you care not to say, just curious.

Cool! My fictional strat league is a largely Upstate New York league (Buffalo Buffeds, Syracuse Trebuchets, Rochester Robins, Utica Blue Sox, Troy Trojans, and Albany Alley-Cats). I actually have no idea where Troy is...also upstate New York?

I like to think of it as a dead ball era independent league...though I suppose not a very realistic one as there are a few Africans, Arabs, and Japanese playing in it.
   297. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 14, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4388481)
I can't get a driver's license in the sense that my internal morality won't let me. I do not have the ability to focus on more than one thing at once and am absolutely convinced that if I were to drive a car I would pose a serious danger to myself and anyone around me.

You may be selling yourself short. A few lessons from a decent driving school could probably sort things out for you, if there comes a time when driving seems potentially worth the effort.
   298. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4388482)
You may be selling yourself short. A few lessons from a decent driving school could probably sort things out for you, if there comes a time when driving seems potentially worth the effort.

Yeah that's what everyone tells me. Also, selling myself short is probably my greatest hobby, so it is in fact almost a certainty.
   299. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 14, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4388483)
I actually have no idea where Troy is...also upstate New York?

Next to Albany.
   300. flournoy Posted: March 14, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4388486)
Also, selling myself short is probably my greatest hobby


I think you're selling your other hobbies a bit short.
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