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Tuesday, November 13, 2012

Marlins trade Jose Reyes, Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle, others to Toronto Blue Jays

Get the ballpark built, then dump payroll. Got to love Loria and Samson:

An industry source has confirmed that the Marlins have traded five players to the Toronto Blue Jays — right-handed starter Josh Johnson, left-handed starter Mark Buehrle, shortstop Jose Reyes, outfielder Emilio Bonifacio and catcher John Buck.

The Marlins will get shortstop Yunel Escobar and infielder Adeiny Hechavarria along with pitchers Henderson Alvarez and Justin Nicolino, according to FoxSports.com.

 

Mike Emeigh Posted: November 13, 2012 at 08:06 PM | 317 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, business, marlins

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   101. RJ in TO Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:06 PM (#4302058)
Source: Red Sox made a push for both Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson, but Jays just blew Marlins away.

What sort of garbage were the Red Sox offering?
   102. Nats-Homer-in-DC Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:06 PM (#4302059)
Loria wasn't to blame for Montreal (the Montreal investors who gave up on their own team were) or recouping the 04-06 losses by holding down 07-10 payrolls, but Loria's a jerk for this
   103. Cooper Nielson Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:09 PM (#4302065)
this is the worst sentence i've ever read a dozen times :(

I was just about to post the same thing! I think I've figured out what Howie is saying, but this could've used about 3 editors. :)
   104. formerly dp Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:09 PM (#4302066)
Just saw this deal, awesome news for Jays fans . Enjoy Reyes, he's a ####### sparkplug and a fun player to root for, glad he's back in a friendly uniform again. And congrats on losing Mathis.

Don't know much about the prospects in this deal-- anyone care to comment?
   105. SteveM. Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4302070)
Are any of the players the Marlins got good? Is Escobar still as much of a head case as he was in Atlanta?
   106. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4302072)
Nick Cafardo doesn't know what "blew" means.
   107. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM (#4302074)
Are any of the players the Marlins got good?


Two guys with questions about the hit tool (one of whom has never hit outside of Las Vegas), two pitchers who aren't going to miss a lot of bats. And Yunel, Mathis, and Alvarez, about whom we already have a clue.

-- MWE
   108. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:17 PM (#4302076)
Good God, you go out to eat and this happens. Do the Marlins ever keep anyone they sign in free agency?

After a quick scan of BB-ref's transactions, I can put together this list of well-known players who signed with the Marlins in free agency and played for two or more years without being traded.

Charlie Hough (because he retired)
Benito Santiago
Andre Dawson (because he retired)
Mark Gardner
John Cangelosi
Alex Fernandez (because of devastating injuries)
Damion Easley
Brian Moehler
Miguel Olivo
Greg Dobbs (so far)
   109. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4302077)
When Beinfest picked up the phone he had Nirvana's "Rape Me" playing in the background.


I wish I hadn't been drinking something when I read this.
   110. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4302079)
"That's a ######-A Trade there Beinfest!" - Tony Reagans...
   111. RollingWave Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4302080)
@108

You are being rather generous with the "well-known player" definition I must say...
   112. TerpNats Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4302082)
If the Nationals are unable to beat the Marlins now, then there's definitely a jinx. Of course, it doesn't appear the Fish will be able to beat anyone else.
   113.     Hey Gurl Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4302086)
I agree with [111]. The summary of post [108] is "no."
   114. DKDC Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4302087)
Although I hope it doesnt work out for them, good for the Jays.

Any team in this division could win 90 games if things break right, although I guess the 2012 Orioles prove that's true of pretty much every team every year.
   115. ColonelTom Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:32 PM (#4302089)
On the bright side, this should put an end to publicly funded stadiums.
   116. salajander Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM (#4302090)
I'm pretty sure Loria should be in jail for fraud.

Anthopoulous for grand larceny, too.
   117. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:34 PM (#4302091)
Loria wasn't to blame for Montreal (the Montreal investors who gave up on their own team were) or recouping the 04-06 losses by holding down 07-10 payrolls, but Loria's a jerk for this
This doesn't give you even the slightest inkling that maybe you might be wrong to let him off the hook for those other bad acts? That maybe the connecting thread here is Loria?
   118. bookbook Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4302094)
If this trade gets Loria chased out of Miami for good, then the Marlins win the trade.
   119. ColonelTom Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4302095)
The Angel of Death strikes again. I assume he'll cash out soon and be given another franchise as a reward for a job well done. Who's next?
   120. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:47 PM (#4302096)
Doesn't this #### the Athletics chances of landing a new stadium? What city would ever trust a team ever again? Bud should act in the best interests of the game on that point alone.
   121. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4302097)
Any team in this division could win 90 games if things break right

Allow me to introduce you to the 2013 Boston Red Sox. Who will be masquerading as a MLB team next season.
   122. puck Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4302099)
Cots is down...anyone remember how much is left on these deals? It's a cynical move in the context of the stadium, but is this a good deal for Toronto in light of the contracts and Buehrle and Reyes's ages?
   123. SouthSideRyan Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4302101)
Something like 168 if memory serves
   124. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:55 PM (#4302102)
Buehrle is owed 3/48 through age 36 and Reyes is owed 5/94 through age 34.

Depending on how the rest of this winter goes, these may end up looking like pretty good deals.
   125. DA Baracus Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4302103)
On the bright side, this should put an end to publicly funded stadiums.


Doesn't this #### the Athletics chances of landing a new stadium? What city would ever trust a team ever again?


I hope so but this won't change a thing. The politicians who will line up tax payer money will convince themselves this won't happen to them. They already believe all the myths of the impact of a new stadium.
   126. ColonelTom Posted: November 13, 2012 at 11:57 PM (#4302104)
If Nolasco goes, they'll be neck-and-neck with the Astros on payroll next year.
   127. Chris Fluit Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:01 AM (#4302105)
Don't know much about the prospects in this deal-- anyone care to comment?


Are any of the players the Marlins got good? Is Escobar still as much of a head case as he was in Atlanta?


The not-quite-prospects anymore:

I liked Adeiny Hechavarria. He promised to develop into a pretty good player and is one guy the Blue Jays might miss. He had kind of supplanted Kelly Johnson at second by the end of the year and some Jays fans were pushing for him to replace Escobar at short next spring (I thought that the Jays would be better with Escobar at short and Hechavarria at second because of Escobar's superior glove, which is probably how the Marlins will play them now).

Henderson Alvarez was rushed into duty this year due to the Jays' injuries and was over his head more often than not. He would have been fighting it out for the 4th or 5th starter spot next year. May turn into a good pitcher someday but probably not a huge loss for the Jays (or huge gain for the Marlins, depending on your perspective).

The actual prospects:

Justin Nicolino is a couple of years away from the majors. He spent the last year at single A and put up good numbers (1.07 Whip and 8.6 k/9). I sometimes saw him listed as a top five prospect for the Jays but he's not in their top two or three.

I'm not even sure I knew who the outfielder was before this. He's not consistently included in any "top ten prospect" lists.

The major leaguers:

I'm not in the Toronto media market anymore so I don't get to keep up with the team on a daily basis. However, Escobar seemed to have settled in as a solid contributor. He didn't have his best year with the bat but people weren't questioning his mental make-up as much as other players on the team (see: Colby Rasmus) and he wasn't making headlines with stupid statements (see: Omar Vizquel). At this point in his career, he's potentially a good veteran presence. Shortstop wasn't one of Toronto's big holes going into next year but if an upgrade at short is the price to pay for an improved pitching staff, I'm all for it.

Jeff Mathis, of course, is the classic addition by subtraction.

   128. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4302106)
If Nolasco goes, Greg Dobbs will be their highest paid player.
   129. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:03 AM (#4302107)
How much does Loria make?
   130. JJ1986 Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4302110)
I'm not even sure I knew who the outfielder was before this. He's not consistently included in any "top ten prospect" lists.


Marisnick? He's the team's top hitting prospect.
   131. Chris Fluit Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:09 AM (#4302112)

Marisnick? He's the team's top hitting prospect.


Could be. Everything I saw had him listed well below their pitching prospects and infielders like D'Arnaud and Hechevarria- if they bothered to list him at all.
   132. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4302114)
I'm not even sure I knew who the outfielder was before this. He's not consistently included in any "top ten prospect" lists.

Kevin Goldstein of B-Pro (and now of the Astros) ranked Marisnick #28 on his top-101 list last year. He hit well at high A this year and then struggled after being promoted to AA. I expect his stock has fallen a bit, but he's still a serious prospect. This year Baseball America ranked him #2 among Jays prospects (after D'Arnaud).
   133. ColonelTom Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4302115)
If Nolasco goes, Dobbs will be their only guaranteed contract.
   134. zachtoma Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4302116)
he wasn't making headlines with stupid statements


Unless you count the ones written on his eye black. L'Affaire Maricon was plenty stupid and got plenty of headlines.
   135. Paul D(uda) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:15 AM (#4302117)
I'm not even sure I knew who the outfielder was before this. He's not consistently included in any "top ten prospect" lists.

He's the top prospect in the deal.
   136. The_Ex Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:15 AM (#4302118)
BA just rated Marisnick as the Jays #2 prospect, and that's as of last week.
   137. Good cripple hitter Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:16 AM (#4302119)
Escobar seemed to have settled in as a solid contributor. He didn't have his best year with the bat but people weren't questioning his mental make-up as much as other players on the team (see: Colby Rasmus) and he wasn't making headlines with stupid statements (see: Omar Vizquel).


As a Jays fan, I can say that this comment is completely accurate. Unlike Vizquel, Escobar certainly did all his talking on the field. You could really see how he felt just by looking into his eyes. He isn't an iceman like some players, his personality was literally written on his face. While some thought that the language barrier would hurt his ability to reach out to the fans, Toronto is a multicultural city and was quick to learn what he was saying. In return, he gave back to the city by donating thousands of dollars of his salary to You Can Play and The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. Yes, it will be a long time before what Yunel Escobar did as a Jay is forgotten in Toronto.

Edit: Damnit, coke to zachtoma.
   138. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:20 AM (#4302120)
If Nolasco goes, Dobbs will be their only guaranteed contract.

Nah, Jacob Turner has one too. But that's it.
   139. Lassus Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:21 AM (#4302121)
Source: Red Sox made a push for both Jose Reyes and Josh Johnson, but Jays just blew Marlins away.

My GF is not going to be happy about this, she would have loved Reyes on the Sox.
   140. Chris Fluit Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4302122)
I had sort of blocked that stupidity out of my memory.
   141. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4302125)
@RNolasco47

Huh?.......
   142. Mayor Blomberg Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:32 AM (#4302127)
Toronto first expressed interest in Reyes last offseason before he ultimately signed a six-year contract valued at $106 million with the Marlins. At the time, the major stumbling block was the Blue Jays' policy not to go beyond five years in any contract.

That's no longer a problem for Reyes, who has five years remaining at a total of $96 million.


OK, now the trade makes sense. Reyes was actually a rental from the Jays; Johnson and Buehrle the cost of the rental.
   143. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4302130)
Stanton's reaction (tweet I suppose) has been '######'ed on each of the tickers I saw. Is he actually swearing? I knew he was not pleased.
   144. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4302133)
Depends on whether you consider "pissed off" swearing.

You can get to someone's twitter feed without being a twitterer yourself. Here's Stanton
   145. slackerjack Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:50 AM (#4302139)
I'm kind of surprised at how blasé people are about the prospects in the deal. According to MLB.com:

Marisnick: #2
Nicolino: #5
Hechevarria: #7

Nicolino is grouped with Syndergaard and Aaron Sanchez. He does not throw as hard but he has better secondary stuff and he is lefthanded. In some ways he is similar to Mark Buehrle, but he throws a bit harder. Marisnick is a power/speed guy who struggled a bit last year while the Jays retooled his swing. His 2011 was very strong, and he's playing well in the AFL this year. Hechevarria was signed at the same time as Jose iglesias, but unlike Jose he is showing some actual hitting ability. Defensively, he is ready now. Great range, smooth actions, and a strong throwing arm.

The Jays picked up 3 guys who will help them now, but they are paying almost full freight for them. In the case of buehrle, they are overpaying for the backloaded last 3 years of his deal. And Reyes and Johnson both have a history of being fragile.

The marlins got salary relief, and also picked up 3 really decent prospects. What's not to like? Watch them develop the team in 2013, and come back strong in 2014. There is nothing wrong with rebuilding as long as you do it with conviction.

Also, I expect that Yunel Escobar will be traded to Arizona for prospects by the end of the week :)



   146. hokieneer Posted: November 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM (#4302144)
This is the end of public funded stadiums, right? If so this is a glorious trade.
   147. Nats-Homer-in-DC Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4302145)
117: Can't rewrite history because a man is hated or a scapegoat is needed.
   148. Darren Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4302146)
The marlins got salary relief, and also picked up 3 really decent prospects. What's not to like? Watch them develop the team in 2013, and come back strong in 2014. There is nothing wrong with rebuilding as long as you do it with conviction.


What do you think these 3 guys would have gotten on the open market? Why would you want salary relief from three guys basically earning their salaries.

I have to admit, I was hoping for the Sox to land a Buehrle/Reyes package for some middling prospects. But even that I feared might be too good to be true. To also get Johnson seems ridiculous.
   149. Danny Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:03 AM (#4302147)
Doesn't this #### the Athletics chances of landing a new stadium? What city would ever trust a team ever again? Bud should act in the best interests of the game on that point alone.

The A's would pay for their own stadium in San Jose, and San Jose is happy to sell them the land at a discount. I doubt the Miami situation will affect the Giants' opposition to the move.
   150. DanO Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:05 AM (#4302148)
Do the Marlins still have any fans at all? And if so, why?
   151. Nats-Homer-in-DC Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:20 AM (#4302152)
146. Well, until the next city does it.

More likely a double dip and pension solvency requirements have a greater impact than this. Pirates and Twins did similar things and the funds were still flowing (or talked of flowing). Or consider the Phoenix Coyotes threatened moving 8 years after their new hockey-only arena was built.
   152. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:26 AM (#4302153)
Do the Marlins still have any fans at all? And if so, why?


I'm originally from Miami and have two childhood friends with season tickets. They are both livid, moreso than any of the previous fire sales.

You wonder if there really is a limit to how much a fanbase will endure before they completely abandon a team.
   153. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:31 AM (#4302154)
Yeah the thing is with Reyes and Johnson is, despite the injury concerns, if at 100% health you have a guy who could win an MVP if everything goes right and a guy who could win a Cy Young if everything goes right. These are two _very_ talented players.
   154. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:32 AM (#4302155)
Could the city revoke their lease and make them leave? With the stadium built, they'd quickly attract another team that would run itself on the up-and-up. Maybe the Rays, for example.
   155. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:38 AM (#4302158)
You wonder if there really is a limit to how much a fanbase will endure before they completely abandon a team.

It depends on the definition of "fanbase". There will always be a fanbase of at least 10 or 20 people. At the same time even at its peak the Marlins might be described as not having a fanbase at all, by the standards of the Phillies or Cardinals or Angels.
   156. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:42 AM (#4302160)
I expect we'll achieve a new record this year in Miami for smallest crowd in a stadium less than five years old.
   157. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4302162)
Marisnick's BBRef page screams "tools." 6'4 200 pounds and a center fielder. Lots of triples and stolen bases but few walks and not many homers for a guy his size. A guy who likely projects better than his stats, which is good because his stats aren't very good at this point.

I actually saw him play in the fall league the other day and he homered.
   158. AROM Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4302163)
Could the city revoke their lease and make them leave? With the stadium built, they'd quickly attract another team that would run itself on the up-and-up. Maybe the Rays, for example.


Rays can't leave because of their lease. But there's nothing to stop the Rays and Marlins from making a 200 player for 200 player organization trade. And then Bud can force the owners to sell to each other.
   159. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:51 AM (#4302164)
The trade led to a John Cangelosi mention, so it's OK with me.
   160. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:51 AM (#4302165)
It depends on the definition of "fanbase". There will always be a fanbase of at least 10 or 20 people. At the same time even at its peak the Marlins might be described as not having a fanbase at all, by the standards of the Phillies or Cardinals or Angels.


True enough. Thanks to the perverse nature of Budshovism certain well-positioned teams are exempt from self-sufficiency. At some point does this become enough of an embarrassment to the league to prompt a sit-down?
   161. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: November 14, 2012 at 01:58 AM (#4302170)
Wow, the things you miss when you don't check Primer for a couple of hours.
   162. zachtoma Posted: November 14, 2012 at 02:08 AM (#4302173)
What I wouldn't give to be able to read John Brattain's take on this.
   163. Squash Posted: November 14, 2012 at 02:59 AM (#4302178)
Marisnick: #2
Nicolino: #5
Hechevarria: #7


Organizational rankings can be very misleading - a guy can be #2 in his organization and still not be a particularly good prospect, and a #7 guy can have almost no value at all. It doesn't so much matter how good a player is compared to the other prospects in his organization but how good he is compared to the greater market of prospects out there in MLB.
   164. vivaelpujols Posted: November 14, 2012 at 03:09 AM (#4302179)
It's worth nothing that the Marlins have averaged 80 wins per season with Loria as the owner and they've typically been in contention every year. 2012 was actually their worst year record wise and that was after they bumped payroll. I dunno this seems like a pretty good deal for the Marlins (good for both sides really).

But otherwise this thread is hilarious. Keep it going.
   165. valuearbitrageur Posted: November 14, 2012 at 03:35 AM (#4302181)
It's worth nothing that the Marlins have averaged 80 wins per season with Loria as the owner and they've typically been in contention every year.


Of course he mostly inherited the talent (thank you John Henry) that won 94 games and a World Series in his 2nd year. Then within a few years he dumped everyone and dropped payroll to under $25M, and the teams record wended it's way down to 71 wins. Over the last 8 years he's averaging 75 wins. He's traded almost every talented player developed by the organization.

And now he's pulled another salary dump. Do you really think he'll be lucky enough to stop the slide at only 69 wins this time?

   166. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: November 14, 2012 at 03:53 AM (#4302182)

What I wouldn't give to be able to read John Brattain's take on this.


He was the first person I thought of when this was announced.
   167. vivaelpujols Posted: November 14, 2012 at 04:01 AM (#4302183)
You can fudge the numbers all you like. For one, in Loria's first year, the Marlins only won 79 games. It wasn't till his second year that they won 91 games and the WS. Weird way for holdover effect to manifest itself, eh? Either way, he's objectively been around an average owner in terms of putting his teams in contention. Certainly way better than a handful of other guys who try their little hearts out (Angelos for instance).

Also this year he was *trying* to build a contender (he might also have been trying to fleece the city of Miami, but that's besides the point). Payroll was over 100 million at the start of the year. 69 wins was not a slide based on a long process of trading away all of his good players, it was just a bad year and pretty unlucky. PECOTA projected them to win 85 games.

This might have been the one year he honestly went all in and it's not a good example of his terrible ownership. Ironically the years in which he kept payroll at or near the bottom of the league, the Marlins fielded decent teams. Even ignoring the first 3 years of his ownership (for some reason, don't ask me), the Marlins averaged 81 wins from 2004 to 2011.

But again, you can fudge all the numbers you want. Marlins averaged 80 wins per season under Loria, so his evilness has not really manifested itself in a "minor league team" (like Dave Cameron put it in a FG post today).
   168. Greg K Posted: November 14, 2012 at 04:34 AM (#4302185)
The deal keeps getting progressively less awesome for the Jays (but still good in my books).

Marisnick is considered the best or second best hitting prospect by a lot of Jays fans. He is toolsy and still quite young.

Nicolino and DeSclafani (who MLBtraderumours says is involved now), both look promising so far. Though A) they're not Sanchez or Snydergaard (which is good for the Jays), and B) DeSclafani doesn't miss a lot of bats.

Hechavarria I never really saw the fuss over. Apparently a great glove, but I haven't seen any indication that he's ever going to hit.
   169. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: November 14, 2012 at 05:27 AM (#4302187)
I completely missed the Izturis signing. That would have made me happy by itself. But this trade- wow- I can't even comprehend. Probably the biggest Blue Jay blockbuster since McGriff & Fernandez for Carter & Alomar.


Probably? There is no question.

Escobar: Has had 4 great seasons out of 6. Excellent contract on remaining 2 years

Alvarez: Throws 95, gets tons of ground balls, but strikeout % is one of the lowest in MLB. Needs to develop off-speed pitch. Waaay young, great competitive personality

Marisnick: Just last week BA podcast said best case scenario, he tops out as what Francoeur was hoped to be. Weakest tool, hitting. Body moves him off of CF into corner spot eventually according to BA

Hechavarria: Amazing glove. Poor plate approach. Has more hit tool than Red Sox Iglesias. Profiles as Rey Ordonez glove/bat

DeSclafani: Recent draft pick, throws hard I guess. Buried somewhere in TOR's solid Top 30

Jays acquire a lot of talent, especially where they needed it. Took control of their own fate going into the highly competitive FA pitching market. Said they had to go get guys, and NEEDED at least two solid SP's. They assume a lotta risk, maybe getting two pissed off recent FA signing guys, and absorb the very expensive back-end loaded contracts of Reyes & Buehrle. Does Buehrle's decade of 200 consecutive innings pitched catch up to him? Reyes knees on artificial turf? Huge deal. Big names. Big prospects. Big money. Big risk.
   170. Gamingboy Posted: November 14, 2012 at 06:24 AM (#4302188)
I suggest that the Blue Jays make a Group Bobblehead of Reyes, Johnson and Buehrle escaping Miami.
   171. OCD SS Posted: November 14, 2012 at 07:47 AM (#4302192)
I'm pretty sure Loria should be in jail for fraud.

Anthopoulous for grand larceny, too.


Canada would never extradite now...
   172. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: November 14, 2012 at 07:49 AM (#4302193)
How much does Loria make?


You mean, in addition to the $300 million Florida taxpayers handed him?

Also this year he was *trying* to build a contender (he might also have been trying to fleece the city of Miami, but that's besides the point).


Well, that's besides YOUR point. I'm not so sure that's besides THE point.
   173. formerly dp Posted: November 14, 2012 at 08:09 AM (#4302199)
My GF is not going to be happy about this, she would have loved Reyes on the Sox.

My wife is happy about this, she doesn't have to hear me curse out her favorite player every time he comes to bat against the Mets.
   174. slackerjack Posted: November 14, 2012 at 08:14 AM (#4302201)

Organizational rankings can be very misleading - a guy can be #2 in his organization and still not be a particularly good prospect, and a #7 guy can have almost no value at all. It doesn't so much matter how good a player is compared to the other prospects in his organization but how good he is compared to the greater market of prospects out there in MLB.


@Squash

The Jays system is ranked in the Top 5 of MLB, so I don't really understand your point here. It's not like we are talking about the Chicago White Sox here.

And I completely forgot about Henderson Alvarez. He's a young (22) fastball/changeup guy who throws very hard with decent control. Main problem is the lack of a third quality pitch. If starting does not work out, he has the arm to be a decent setup man or closer.

Yunel Escobar, baggage and all, is a very good shortstop. In a year when he hits a little, his defense is good enough to make him a 4 WAR player. And he's signed at 5 MM per season through 2015. Even in last year's disastrous season, he was a 1.8 WAR player.

Loria may be a evil, money grubbing troll, but he got back quantity and quality in this deal. And he did it by trading risky players who are being paid at market value.

The Marlins gutted themselves at the MLB Level, but they just made their organization a lot stronger.
Hechavarria: Amazing glove. Poor plate approach. Has more hit tool than Red Sox Iglesias. Profiles as Rey Ordonez glove/bat

Hechevarria is a bit bigger and stronger than Ordonez, which makes me think he will hit for a little more power. If he can develop a little plate discipline, he's a poor man's Elvis Andrus. Defensively, the comparison is not a bad one.

Iglesias makes Ordonez look like Babe Ruth. He literally cannot hit. Iglesias had 11 (!) XBH in nearly 400 PA in AAA last year. That is historically bad.

It is pretty funny reading posts from outraged Red Sox fans who think that Iglesias/Kalish/Doubront are an equivalent package to what the Marlins received.
   175. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: November 14, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4302202)
how bad a tax hit is this for the players going to toronto? had to have been more than a small reason for signing with a florida team.
   176. formerly dp Posted: November 14, 2012 at 08:25 AM (#4302203)
I agree that this is a good haul for the Marlins-- they got back potential long-term replacements all the talent they gave up (except Buck! Mathis is terrible), and then some. It's easy to see Escobar outperforming Reyes, especially taking salary and defense into consideration, if Reyes has hamstring problems. It's a great trade for the Jays, but they had to give to get.
   177. villageidiom Posted: November 14, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4302208)
What I wouldn't give to be able to read John Brattain's take on this.
Finally, Jeff Loria does something good for Canada.
   178. NattyBoh Posted: November 14, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4302217)

When Beinfest picked up the phone he had Nirvana's "Rape Me" playing in the background.


Was Alex A playing Nine Inch Nails' "Closer"?
   179. TerpNats Posted: November 14, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4302220)
I'm kind of surprised at how blasé people are about the prospects in the deal. According to MLB.com:

Marisnick: #2
Nicolino: #5
Hechevarria: #7
The prospects may indeed be nice, but under the current Loria/Samson ownership, how long will they stay in Miami? Most of us can guess the answer. That's why we're blasé.
   180. Rants Mulliniks Posted: November 14, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4302226)
Woohoo! I heard this on my local radio station this morning on my way to work, and they just said the Marlins players for Escobar, Alvarez, Hech and prospects. I was just thinking "plese not D'Arnaud, please not D'Arnaud". No D'Arnaud, so I'm ecstatic.

I've hated Escobar from day one. He had a nice 2011, but has now had an OPS below .660 in two of the past three years. I think WAR overrates his D.

Alvarez could turn out to be a top of the rotation starter, or he could stagnate where he is. As others have said, he needs a third pitch (slider/splitter/curveball).

I don't understand the high ranking for Marisnick. He just put up .249/.321/.399 line over high-A and AA as a 21 year old, with a 37/100 BB/K ratio and went 24/9 on the bases. I know his projection is based on tools, but I just don't see him becoming anymore than a regular everyday player. Cody Ross maybe.

Nicolino is a great prospect, but he's still at least two years away.

Hechevarria - blah. I never understood the fuss, especially since they've been talking about him at 2B.


The Jays still need to trade at least one catcher. For some stupid reason claimed Bobby Wilson off waivers, so they have him, Arencibia, Buck and D'Arnaud right now. I would say there's about a 5% chance that Arencibia starts the season with the team.
   181. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: November 14, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4302228)
I thought the Jays had an amazing farm system. Was that just hype?
   182. Greg K Posted: November 14, 2012 at 09:59 AM (#4302229)
I thought the Jays had an amazing farm system. Was that just hype?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by hype. It was my impression that the system was well regarded. Reaction to this trade may be proof of that in that the Marlins got a decent haul but the Jays managed to keep their best prospects (D'Arnaud, Sanchez, and Snydergaard).
   183. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4302231)
The Angel of Death strikes again. I assume he'll cash out soon and be given another franchise as a reward for a job well done. Who's next?
I hear the Mets are coming up for sale....
   184. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4302232)
It's worth nothing that the Marlins have averaged 80 wins per season with Loria as the owner and they've typically been in contention every year. 2012 was actually their worst year record wise and that was after they bumped payroll. I dunno this seems like a pretty good deal for the Marlins (good for both sides really).

But otherwise this thread is hilarious. Keep it going.


Yea, I'm a bit mystified as to those already writing the Marlins completely off saying they'll lose 100 considering what JUST HAPPENED to Oakland. The Marlins have been doing this for years, and somehow making it work out.
   185. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4302241)
I want to echo Voros @153. Seriously, if Reyes were a FA today, he'd get 5/$94. Buerhle would get 3/$48 and Johnson would get 1/$14.

Those guys are valuable.
   186. TDF, situational idiot Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4302248)
There are two sides to this deal:

As a baseball-only deal, it seems fair. The Jays get some nice players without having to bid for them on the open market, while the Marlins (who probably aren't contenders in the next year or two anyway) get some nice prospects and save themselves some serious cash. The backloading of the Buehrle and Reyes deals makes those two very expensive - $34M combined in '14, $41M in '15, Reyes $22M/yr for 2 more years + a buyout. If Reyes really is a below-average fielder now, that's a ton of money for a <3 win player. Reyes and Buehrle are great deals in '13, but after that, not so much.

As a public relations move, though.....Yea. Unless the Marlins plan on signing each of the top 4 FAs this off-season, the taxpayers have every reason to be livid because it seems obvious the Marlins have no plan to be a good team, just to maximize profit.
   187. TerpNats Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4302250)
The Jays still need to trade at least one catcher.
Mike Rizzo wants to know what you'll give up for Jesus Flores.
   188. Nasty Nate Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4302254)
Maybe this is a prelude for a Teixeira/A. Rodriguez/$100,000,000 for Logan Morrison trade?
   189. TDF, situational idiot Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4302255)
Reyes were a FA today, he'd get 5/$94
Only from Ilitch, and only because the Tigers now need a SS. Unless FA salaries explode, or you think he'll magically become a better player than he seems to be now, I don't see it.

Oh, and it's $96M ($10M, 16, 22, 22, 22, 4 (buyout)), but that's change between the cushions in this deal.
   190. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 14, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4302257)
Reyes projects as about a 4 win player. That's easily worth a contract in that range, given the money in the game and the excellent young-player skills that Reyes brings.
   191. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:11 AM (#4302273)
Wrong topic.
   192. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4302279)
How much does Loria make?

You mean, in addition to the $300 million Florida taxpayers handed him?


Yes. What's he take home at the end of a hard day of grafting and crying poor?
   193. TDF, situational idiot Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4302284)
Reyes projects as about a 4 win player. That's easily worth a contract in that range, given the money in the game and the excellent young-player skills that Reyes brings.
Per bbref, he's been above 2.8 once since '08; while fangraphs thinks he's about a 4 WAR player, that's based on much rosier defensive ratings (a 24 run (2.4 win) difference over the past 2 seasons, for instance) and defense is the first thing to go.
   194. Greg K Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:26 AM (#4302288)
Yes. What's he take home at the end of a hard day of grafting and crying poor?

I assume it's a pretty similar amount to that of all the other teams who recently whined their way to a publicly funded new stadium.
   195. Greg K Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4302290)
Per bbref, he's been above 2.8 once since '08; while fangraphs thinks he's about a 4 WAR player, that's based on much rosier defensive ratings (a 24 run (2.4 win) difference over the past 2 seasons, for instance) and defense is the first thing to go.

That is what I'm curious about. BRef has his defence as abysmal the last two years. To the NL fans: has Reyes looked like a -13 and -17 fielder the past two years?
   196. dlf Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4302294)
What I wouldn't give to be able to read John Brattain's take on this.



He was the first person I thought of when this was announced.


John and Doug Pappas are probably sharing a laugh over this right about now.

How much does Loria make?

You mean, in addition to the $300 million Florida taxpayers handed him?


I read earlier today that Loria is paid $10m per year for his administrative duties.

Edit: here is the link http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2011-05-05/news/six-lies-about-the-marlins-stadium/2/ with the key clauses:

Through a shady bit of accounting, the team paid a "managing general partner" named Double Play Company $8.6 million between 2008 and 2010, the documents showed. Double Play's owner, according to the Florida Division of Corporations, is Loria; its president is Samson.

What's more, Loria pays himself another $10 million a year in costs classified as "administration,"
   197. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4302296)
The trade would be fair if the Jays had to take Ozzie Guillen too.
   198. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4302303)
David Samson: "What would you say to a little ####?

Miami citizenry: "Hello, little ####."
   199. McCoy Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:49 AM (#4302311)
There is something like 5 billion threads on the front page about the Blue Jays and Marlins right now. Soak it in BJ and Marlins' fans because you'll never get a day like this again on BTF.
   200. Gamingboy Posted: November 14, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4302318)
I have this image in my head of Loria looking at an empty Marlins stadium and declaring: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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