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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Tuesday, November 13, 2012
Get the ballpark built, then dump payroll. Got to love Loria and Samson:
An industry source has confirmed that the Marlins have traded five players to the Toronto Blue Jays — right-handed starter Josh Johnson, left-handed starter Mark Buehrle, shortstop Jose Reyes, outfielder Emilio Bonifacio and catcher John Buck.
The Marlins will get shortstop Yunel Escobar and infielder Adeiny Hechavarria along with pitchers Henderson Alvarez and Justin Nicolino, according to FoxSports.com.
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What a curious assumption.
This is insanity.
Yeah, I would assume Young Masters Steinbrenner make a lot more money every year than Loria.
And at least Loria has to work to keep his grift going; YMS have just been handed everything they've ever gotten in life.
I learned this year to never be too sure in your assumptions. Back in March, I told a friend I'd give him a gold watch if the Jays won more games than the Red Sox. If you'd told me then that they Jays were about to have their worst season since 2004, I'd have thrown in a gold necklace and earrings for his wife. Then the 2012 season happened.
You'd like to think running a popular, successful, iconic franchise would be more rewarding that running a welfare scheme in the same business, but all we seem to have is assumptions, yes?
Sucking up to Bud Selig may be many things, but I doubt it qualifies as work.
I don't think you really want to defend the welfare Marlins on the basis of who is beholden to unearned handouts. If you'd like to talk about how much of a refund the Yankees are entitled to from the years prior to Mr. Steinbrenner's sad demise I might be willing to accept your sincerity on the topic.
FTFY.
The Yankees are entitled to a refund of whatever Mr. Steinbrenner didn't freely agree to share with his business partners.
That was your first mistake, the Red Sox are really good at handing out watches.
I'm not willing to go that far but I think there is a good chance the Jays are still fourth in the east. Reyes and Johnson are injury risks and Buehrle is a mid 30s soft tosser with a low k rate. There is every reason to believe this trade will improve Toronto but I'm not sold. The cost was minimal enough that I wish my Red Sox had done it but I wouldn't be stashing playoff ticket money if they had and I don't think the Jays should be either.
Actually, wasn't Steinbrenner the only owner to vote against revenue sharing?
You can question the trade, but the idea that it won't improve the Jays seems a bit nuts. Johnson and Buehrle are taking the rotation spots of Henderson Alvarez and Aaron Laffey. They will outperform those guys.
Yeah I worded that badly. It will improve them but I don't think it's a slam dunk to vault them into contention.
Agreed. But the wreckage that was 2012 left the team in a weird position-- they had some surprise good years, balanced by a boatload of bad breaks. So many things went poorly that I'd forgotten all about the Santos injury.
Anyone want to give a quick capsule summary on why Romero imploded?
One. They had one surprise good year: Encarnacion. Well, I guess you could argue for Janssen, even if what he did was more a function of his role than of a big improvement.
Romero was pitching through pain all year, it turns out. He denied it at the time but just recently had some kind of surgery to clean out his elbow. There had also been some speculation that his changeup had gotten too good, to the point where nobody would swing at it, and that cramped his style. If you don't like either of those as explanations, I can't help you, because nobody's come up with anything else. There is room for some optimism that he'll be his old self in 2013. But who knows.
I hadn't heard that one. If true that doesn't make me like Romero very much. You would have figured at some point during the six straight months of sucking and frenzied attempts to figure out what was wrong he would have come clean.
Reyes' leg problems were muscular, not joints or ligaments/tendons as I recall. Early on he had reoccuring hamstring problems, then the big one was a calf strain.
In Selig fashion, he'll probably let the Oakland owners take over the Miami franchise and MLB will operate the A's until they can find a legislative body full of suckers.
Would it be a really big deal anyway? The Jays switched to more modern types of artificial turf years ago.
I don't know, I think that sounds like a pretty good idea.
Oh yeah, I agree, and it certainly can't hurt to check. It just never would have occurred to me to ask.
His replacement is going to look at the NBA, NFL and NHL and start thinking salary cap and we're going to lose a season, so I hope Selig reigns forever.
Which seems quite possible. How long-lived are Skeksis?
But if he, or his people, are involved in bribing those government decision-makers, it is on him.
This is true on face value. However, they are in the entertainment business, where public perception is very important. Just as baseball personnel are forbidden to bet on games, lest the apparant integrity of the game is diminished, similarly if team owners stack the roster with A-ballers just to put a nominal team on the field and collect revenue sharing, it gives the public perception that MLB teams are not good community partners. Your point that the public officials are to blame is true; Bridge to Nowhere, Solyidra, Marlins Stadium... it just never ends.
I actually think the Marlins will be good again in 2 years or so. Every time they've had fire sales in the past it hasn't taken very long for them to improve.
This is partly true. Selig and Loria are in the 1% because they've mastered the art of taking the 99%'s money and making it theirs. I guess if the 99% is just going to sit there and let it happen, there isn't much that can be done about it, but at some point somebody needs to shake some sense into people.
Two-point-four billion in debt for Jeffrey Loria's and Bud Selig's private business? What possibly could have convinced you this was a good idea? Wake the #### up, people.
Wake the #### up.
2003 Marlins had six players record more than 1.0 bbref batting WAR (the next two guys on the list included as a bonus):
Luis Castillo 4.2 - Amateur FA signed 1992
Ivan Rodriguez 4.2 - FA signed Jan 2003
Juan Pierre 3.4 - Acquired via trade w Rockies Nov 2002
Derrek Lee 2.6 - Acquired via trade w Padres Dec 1997
Mike Lowell 2.5 - Acquired via trade w Yankees Feb 1999
Alex Gonzalez 1.1 - Amateur FA signed 1994
Jeff Conine 0.8 - Acquired via trade w Orioles Aug 2003 (midseason acquisition)
Miguel Cabrera 0.5 - Amateur FA signed 1999
2003 Marlins had eight players record 1.0 or more bbref pitching WAR:
Dontrelle Willis 3.7 - Acquired via trade w Cubs Mar 2002
Josh Beckett 3.6 - Acquired via Amateur draft (1st round) 1999
Mark Redman 3.6 - Acquired via trade w Tigers Jan 2003
Brad Penny 2.6 - Acquired via trade w D'Backs July 1999
Carl Pavano 2.1 - Acquired via trade w Expos Jul 2002
Ugueth Urbina 2.0 - Acquired via trade w Rangers Jul 2003 (midseason acquisition) (Adrian Gonzalez deal)
Braden Looper 1.1 - Acquired via trade w Cardinals Dec 1998
Chad Fox 1.0 - FA signed Aug 2003 (midseason signing, released by Red Sox Jul 30)
So, 16 most valuable players to that year's team, 39 WAR, give or take. 20.8 acquired during Loria's tenure.
Thought I'd take a look. Sorry for the poor methodology.
Not even close.
Wake the #### up, people. Wake the #### up.
Careful, SBB, you're treading dangerously close to getting accused of wearing a tinfoil hat.
Miami recalled the mayor who pushed the stadium deal and got it approved. The city still has to live with the repercussions of it though.
Nope, only 4.2 WAR "acquired" during Loria's tenure through the signing of Pudge.
All of those trades were only made possible by the massive amount of talent Loria inherited when the MLB traded him the Marlins for the Expos. Here is a list of players they traded his first two years.
Antonio Alfonseca
Matt Clement
Ryan Dempster
Cliff Floyd
Wilton Guerrero
Claudio Vargas
Charles Johnson
Preston Wilson
Nate Robertson
Kevin Millar
Adrian Gonzalez
Denny Bautista
Here is players on the 2001 roster kept through 2003 (about 25 WAR that year)
Luis Castillo
Josh Beckett
Derrek Lee
Mike Lowell
Brad Penny
Braden Looper
Alex Gonzalez
Rick Helling
Miquel Cabrera
Ramon Castro
AJ Burnett
Mike Redmond
Loria started with a super deep organization (as well as substantial MLB subsidies), and used that organizational depth instead of revenues to keep his team competitive. But as that original bank of talent has been spent, their average results have declined. Since their last WS championship they are averaging 79 wins, 77 wins since he went to rock bottom payroll in 2006, 71 wins the last two years.
The bank is empty. This trade ain't gonna replenish it. The trend is clear, Beinfest is good, but he won't be able to stop them from averaging less than 70 wins over the next decade.
If there was any sucking up, it's because Loria desperately needed extra pressure on Dade County to threaten into a stadium deal.
What makes you think they're friends? Just because both are enemies of the disgruntled Expos' fans or public-financed stadium critics or revenue sharing critics doesn't mean they're allied. You seem to forget that Selig and Loria had a rather public fight over Loria's insistence he retain one of MLB's 30 franchises and Selig's plans to contract 2 of them. Friends don't normally threaten to sue each other.
I saw Maddux and Glavine in line to get their passports renewed.
Hat? He looks like a baking potato.
me today: I can't believe the Jays didn't have to give up Gose?
my American friend: what's gose, French for "anything?"
Oh here's a link about the tax implications for the players.
Traded Marlins Players Will Take $2 Million Tax Hit In Canada
Am I the only one that can't eyeball the Las Vegas league/park factor? I know all the numbers are inflated, but I still get hopeful when I see a guy like Cooper had a .900+ OPS there the last two years...the Jays can't bolt from that place fast enough.
I can't do that either. Luckily the Jays' AAA team is going to be in Buffalo next year with the Mets affiliate moving to Vegas.
Yes, he has a pit bull. Not allowed.
I wonder about things like this, how off-field stuff will affect a player's performance? How will it affect Buehrle when he comes home and his dog isn't there? How will Jose Reyes react, moving from a warm climate and a city full of Latinos, to whitebread Toronto? He made the choice to go to Miami a year ago as a Free Agent - maybe he was aware, without a no-trade clause, that this could happen - but did he think it would be within a year? How will they all react to the purple money, and the blue money, and all the coins, and all the Pakistanis and the Sikhs, and the different education system (if they even bring their kids to Canada)? Etc.
So if I can get away with dumping hexavalent chromium in your kids' drinking water because it increases my profit margin, that's okay?
- what i wouldn't give to read his take on anything at all. i still miss him soooo much - and it will be 4 years come march
- funny, both my Dogss are named after them - Dog Pappas and Jana Brattain Dog.
I've taught them to growl/snarl when i say "jim crane" and "designated hitter"
now i'll hafta teach them to howl when i say "jeffrey loria"
Truth.
I wonder how Reyes is going to do on the turf. That stadium is so, so sad. Sorry, RJ.
Toronto's one of (if not the) most diverse city in the world.
Shhhh, he's on a roll.
+14 Bat + 3 Run + 20 Rep + 6 Pos - 5 Def = +38 RAR
In the current offensive environment, it takes a little less that 10 runs created to contribute a full win, so that's about four wins. It's true that a lot of the value comes from 2011, but I know of no systematic evidence that players whose value is distributed unevenly over recent years are either worse or better bets to produce value in the future. (MGL's study of career years found that treating them as you would any other year, weighting and regressing, was the best approach.) And Reyes has already had a good season following his career year, just like the projections expected.
He's going to be 30, which really isn't particularly old for a free agent. He has all the classic young player skills that project a better aging curve. If you project 5% inflation, a current cost of $5.5M per win, and a half-win decline per year, Reyes projects to be worth a contract around 5/90 or 6/100.
RJ in TO
The turf isnt what it used to be.
This is true. Still, turf is turf. Regardless, I hope at this revives Reyes a bit from last year. His last year in NY was awesome to watch, and I would like a few more years of that player in baseball.
Meh. It's not as bad as people say, although it's certainly not wonderful. The upgrades from a couple years back have helped.
As for the turf, it's not the old-school cementish turf. He should be fine.
I will admit I haven't been in the stadium since - gulp - 2001. The time, it scurries away like a pissed-off scorpion.
- no rainouts
- centrally located and convenient to transit
- clean
- CN Tower
- not like anywhere else
I don't claim it's a great ballpark. But Toronto could do a lot worse.
As someone else already said, Toronto is one of the most diverse cities in the world.
And when Caribana starts up in July, the place is just hopping.
purple money = $10 bills
blue money = $5 bills
coins = $1 and $2
I'm not sure how many of those they'll have on them.
I can not stress enough how important those two things are to Blue Jays fans.
When you considered the terrible situation before (Exhibition Place), SkyDome/Rogers Center is amazing.
My mom has said that they have a share of season tickets only because they are guaranteed to play the game that is scheduled AND the climate will be good for baseball (especially at night). If she had to worry about games getting cancelled, or it being too cold to go (in April/September), then she wouldn't be willing to shell out money in advance.
Red money $50
Brown money $100
Burgundy money $1000 (no longer printed, but still in circulation)
Have you seen the cool new $100 bills in Canada? See-through section and made of polymer?
Even though I can spend them anywhere, I think they are pretty damn cool.
Just to beat a dead horse, in 2006 there were 31 languages spoken as the primary "at home language" by 10,000 or more Toronto residents. The diversity of Toronto's diversity is what's so impressive about it. We tend to call a city "diverse" if it has big white, black, and Latino populations, but Toronto is made up half of white Canadians and half of a sampling of about everyone else on the planet. That's diverse diversity.
Wait, I thought $50 bills were blue. $10 bills are yellow, $5 are pink.
How bad can it be - the Blue Jays drew over 4 million fans for three straight years. You'd think the word would have gotten around pretty quickly if it was a real problem.
They unveiled the new $20s this week. Pretty cool...
This is not, was not, and will never be true. Even when he does something good bashing is always appropriate. Now back to what this thread is really about ... potato recipes and currency.
Buerhle is being sent to a Toronto chop shop, where he will be broken down, and his parts distributed to the rest of the Blue Jays pitching staff.
Or fed to his pitbull.
Surely he's getting flipped, right?
Negative, the 5 is green, 10 is red, 25 is purple.
And now Toronto's signed Melky!
AA, making it rain!!
SS Reyes
LF Melky
RF Bautista
DH Encarnacion
1B ???
3B Lawrie
2B Bonifacio
CF Rasmus
C Arencibia
For some reason, I thought Bonifacio was older than he is. Came up young and never got any better...
I will be you like 5,000 dollars the Marlins average more than 70 wins the next decade. You game?
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