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Friday, December 09, 2011

Marlins Were High Bidders For Pujols, [C.J.] Wilson

Mr. Lazear, for the good of the universe, please return Gray’s Sports Almanac to Dr. Brown.  Thank you.

With $191MM committed to Jose Reyes, Mark Buehrle, and Heath Bell, Marlins fans can’t complain about their offseason so far.  Only one of the 5,020 entrants in MLBTR’s free agent prediction contest, Matthew Lazear, correctly guessed in November that the Marlins would sign all three.  However, it’s interesting to note that the Marlins also made the highest bids on top free agents Albert Pujols and C.J. Wilson, who ultimately went to the Angels today.

Pujols received ten years and $254MM from the Angels, but Bob Nightengale of USA Today says the Marlins offered ten years and $275MM…

Said Wilson: “But if it were just about money I’d be a Marlin, straight up, because they offered more money, they have a great situation.”

The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:39 AM | 59 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, miami, rumors

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   1. Shock Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:54 AM (#4011130)
What the fuck
   2. Austin Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:56 AM (#4011132)
I knew Miami offered Wilson way more money than he signed for with the Angels, but that reported Pujols offer sounds... rather implausible.
   3. YR Denies Jesus Montero Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:01 AM (#4011135)
Obviously the Marlins have grown beyond their earlier need for free revenue sharing dollars.
   4. JE Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:12 AM (#4011142)
Only one of the 5,020 entrants in MLBTR’s free agent prediction contest, Matthew Lazear, correctly guessed in November that the Marlins would sign all three.

So does Lazear win Albert's money?
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:16 AM (#4011146)
I know Jeffrey Loria is rich, but is he that much richer than the rest of the owners? What's going to happen when the Marlins fail to meet revenue projections?

Ah right, that's why they refused to give no-trade clauses.

Bob Nightengale wrote that a "mystery team" that was NOT the Angels offered Pujols 10/$225 and they refuse to be identified further adding intrigue. WHODUNIT?
   6. Shock Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:17 AM (#4011147)

Obviously the Marlins have grown beyond their earlier need for free revenue sharing dollars.


No wonder they couldn't afford to pay for their ####### bullpark. Jesus on a stick with mustard.
   7. Tuque Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:36 AM (#4011158)
I wonder if Pujols would have broken $300 million if he hadn't started last season the way he did.
   8. Fat Al Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:24 AM (#4011189)
Didn't Miami say no to no-trade clauses (on re-read I see that 5 points that out)? That could certainly trump the difference in the Pujols offers. Particularly given Loria's track record.
   9. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:27 AM (#4011191)
We are in Bizarro world now. Pirates fans should be rioting in the streets.
   10. Good cripple hitter Posted: December 09, 2011 at 07:25 AM (#4011226)
that reported Pujols offer sounds... rather implausible.


I just read an article that claimed that "a phantom period of approximately 300 years has been inserted between 600 AD to 900 AD... the entire Carolingian period, including the person of Charlemagne, is a forgery of medieval chroniclers, more precisely a conspiracy instigated by Otto III and Gerbert d'Aurillac.” That theory, as batshit insane as it sounds, still seems more plausible to me than the Marlins offering Pujols 10 years and 275 million dollars.
   11. JoeHova Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:07 AM (#4011235)
What article was that? And did the author mean that all known history from that period is legendary or that year 900 directly followed year 600?
   12. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:16 AM (#4011239)
And did the author mean that all known history from that period is legendary or that year 900 directly followed year 600?


I need to know the answer to this.
   13. Swedish Chef Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:23 AM (#4011240)
t "a phantom period of approximately 300 years has been inserted between 600 AD to 900 AD... the entire Carolingian period, including the person of Charlemagne, is a forgery of medieval chroniclers, more precisely a conspiracy instigated by Otto III and Gerbert d'Aurillac.”

There is a Russian crackpot that has written a huge tome based on the idea that the entire history before the first crusade is a medieval forgery and that said crusade was launched as a direct response to the execution of Jesus. A 300 year phantom period seems rather unambitious in comparison.
   14. Good cripple hitter Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:25 AM (#4011242)
This article (warning: pdf), which I found from wikipedia here which I discovered because I read the NBA thread and wanted to look up the frozen envelope theory, and one spot ahead of that on Wiki's list of conspiracy theories is phantom time theory.

As for your question, both, I think. Either Otto II or Constantine VII fudged the dates (either accidentally or maliciously) and historians just filled in the blanks / invented stuff.

This probably is my favourite conspiracy theory ever just for the sheer weirdness of it all.
   15. Greg (U)K Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:27 AM (#4011243)
I've been reading the wrong kind of history journals. That sounds like thrilling stuff!
   16. Good cripple hitter Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:28 AM (#4011244)
The best part is, all I wanted to know is who was the player involved in the frozen envelope draft, and if anyone actually took that theory seriously or if it's all just a running gag in the NBA.
   17. meatwad Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:33 AM (#4011246)
History is written by winners, that said it seems like a lot of work to fake a 300 year period considering all the documents and collaborating evidence, however if true then what is the true history of that time period?
   18. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:00 AM (#4011251)
all I wanted to know is who was the player involved in the frozen envelope draft, and if anyone actually took that theory seriously
Some do, yes.

if true then what is the true history of that time period?
The Holy Roman Empire was actually holy, Roman, and an empire.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:41 AM (#4011256)
What if one of these theories was right? It would blow everyone's mind!
   20. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:15 PM (#4011292)
History is written by winners, that said it seems like a lot of work to fake a 300 year period considering all the documents and collaborating evidence, however if true then what is the true history of that time period?


Ask David Icke - he knows. It's lizard men all the way down.
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:23 PM (#4011298)
all I wanted to know is who was the player involved in the frozen envelope draft, and if anyone actually took that theory seriously


I thought it was assumed to be Patrick Ewing.
   22. YR Denies Jesus Montero Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:29 PM (#4011300)
Was Ewing a frozen envelope or a frozen ping ping ball? I can't remember the specifics; I do remember the conspiracy theory starting almost immediately.
   23. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:33 PM (#4011303)
Either Otto II or Constantine VII fudged the dates


I though everybody knew that Otto II and Constantine VII were the same person.

...then what is the true history of that time period?


Templars and Aliens.
   24. YR Denies Jesus Montero Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:45 PM (#4011308)
...then what is the true history of that time period?


Jesus and Hebrews coming to America. Duh.
   25. Don't want the truth; just wanna see some dingers Posted: December 09, 2011 at 03:58 PM (#4011320)
I thought the theory was that the Knicks envelope had a folded corner, but I may be getting it mixed up with my childhood book of magic tricks.
   26. Jose Can You Seabiscuit Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:03 PM (#4011325)
YR - I think it was an envelope. I don't think the folded corner would be right because cameras might have picked it up.

The NBA lottery has had enough "interesting" stuff going on over the years that the conspiracy theories are almost accepted as fact it seems.

And I don't know why the 10/275 offer from the Marlins is so implausible. They were throwing money around like drunken sailors this week and if we believe they were offering 10/225 or something of that ilk I don't know why $5 million per year is so unreasonable.
   27. esseff Posted: December 09, 2011 at 04:31 PM (#4011344)
No-trade clauses have value. So does undeferred money (Angels) stacked up against deferred money, especially deferred money at no interest. The Marlins reportedly met with MLB officials Tuesday to make sure their creative offer to Pujols was legal (in terms of MLB rules), suggesting that not all $275 million offers are created equal.
   28. Greg (U)K Posted: December 09, 2011 at 05:23 PM (#4011405)
Templars and Aliens.

Isn't that coming out in theatres in a couple weeks?
   29. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 09, 2011 at 06:52 PM (#4011552)
It's already airing on the History Channel.
   30. dave h Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:53 PM (#4011728)
I thought the theory was that the Knicks envelope had a folded corner, but I may be getting it mixed up with my childhood book of magic tricks.


It's not just a theory, there's a video on youtube. It's not perfectly clear, but you can make a plausible case that the person who puts the Knicks envelope in the drum bangs it against the drum, making a crease. Then Stern goes fishing for the Knicks envelope, passing up a couple others on the way.
   31. dave h Posted: December 09, 2011 at 08:55 PM (#4011733)
Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX1kMlG8c7Y

There's just enough there to be plausible, in my opinion, but not anywhere neared proved.
   32. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:02 PM (#4011746)
If they were willing to do it once, isn't it about time they did it again?
   33. bunyon Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:09 PM (#4011753)
And did the author mean that all known history from that period is legendary or that year 900 directly followed year 600?



I need to know the answer to this.

Yes. I expect an answer by January 1, 1712.
   34. McCoy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:11 PM (#4011757)
There's just enough there to be plausible, in my opinion, but not anywhere neared proved.

It's not just a theory, there's a video on youtube. It's not perfectly clear, but you can make a plausible case that the person who puts the Knicks envelope in the drum bangs it against the drum, making a crease. Then Stern goes fishing for the Knicks envelope, passing up a couple others on the way.

There is nothing there. Are people simply overlooking the fact that the drum was spun around several times? If placing an envelope in the drum the way they do is going to create some marking that can be used to identify the envelope then what do people think is going to happen when you spin the drum? Secondly Stern didn't pass over any other envelopes or go fishing for the envelope. It is in his hand from the beginning. He grabs three envelopes, flips the bundle over, and takes the top one. The envelope wasn't even visible before he flipped it over. If anything it lends more credence to the belief that the envelope was frozen than it does to anything else that was suggested.
   35. dave h Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:24 PM (#4011781)
34, if you freeze it you can clearly see the Knicks envelope has a crease, and while he picks it up initially the flip a choose makes it seem that he is specifically targeting that envelope. Now as you say they were spun in the drum, so they may all have creases (by the way, what a crappy way to shuffle the envelopes - did it change the order by more than 1 or 2?). The amazing thing is how weird the whole process looks. Stern looks like he's about to start his driver's ed test before he reaches in.
   36. McCoy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:43 PM (#4011797)
Yes you can clearly see a crease on the envelope after all of the envelopes had been spun.
   37. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 09:49 PM (#4011802)
And did the author mean that all known history from that period is legendary or that year 900 directly followed year 600?



I need to know the answer to this.

Yes. I expect an answer by January 1, 1712.
zing!
   38. i'm not STEAGLES and you shouldn't be either Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:01 PM (#4011813)
No-trade clauses have value.
yes. but considering the marlins history, it could very well be that a 10/$275 million contract is allotted like this":

10, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, with 31 million deferred to a later date.

in this case, if the marlins intention was to trade him after the first year (as they did with carlos delgado), that no-trade clause does have a value--$265 million--and that value is exactly the reason that, no matter what pujols gave up in the negotiations, the no-trade clause was entirely off the table.

i could be wrong...but i doubt it.
   39. The District Attorney Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:21 PM (#4011834)
David Samson says Miami offered Pujols "a little* over $200 million", and if we can't trust him, I don't know who we could trust.

* Heh. Little.
   40. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#4011836)

"a phantom period of approximately 300 years has been inserted between 600 AD to 900 AD... the entire Carolingian period, including the person of Charlemagne, is a forgery of medieval chroniclers, more precisely a conspiracy instigated by Otto III and Gerbert d'Aurillac.”


This sort of thing seems popular among history crackpots. I once read a detailed book that argued that the same thing had occurred in early Mesopotamian History. So that Sargon of Akkad and the Assyrian King Sargon II were the same person, Ur-Nammu was actually Nebuchadnezzar, etc. In short, 1500 years had been accidentally inserted because historians didn't realize that kings went by different names in different contexts.

When I read that, the first thing that occurred to me was "wouldn't this have to mean that Egyptian chronology was equally mixed-up?" because of course Egyptian records mention many of the same kings. The only mention of this was a single footnote that said something to the effect of 'if this is true then it would suggest the Pyramids, etc. have also been misdated".
   41. Fancy Pants is braggadocious about his Handle Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:24 PM (#4011838)
As for your question, both, I think. Either Otto II or Constantine VII fudged the dates (either accidentally or maliciously) and historians just filled in the blanks / invented stuff.

Doesn't carbon dating pretty much flush this theory down the toilet right out of the gate. I thought 1 SD on 3000 years was supposed to be 30 years. If we were missing 300 years worth of history, we would have a whole bunch of artefacts that wouldn't align with the right periods...
   42. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:36 PM (#4011849)
"a phantom period of approximately 300 years has been inserted between 600 AD to 900 AD... the entire Carolingian period, including the person of Charlemagne, is a forgery of medieval chroniclers, more precisely a conspiracy instigated by Otto III and Gerbert d'Aurillac.”



This sort of thing seems popular among history crackpots. I once read a detailed book that argued that the same thing had occurred in early Mesopotamian History. So that Sargon of Akkad and the Assyrian King Sargon II were the same person, Ur-Nammu was actually Nebuchadnezzar, etc. In short, 1500 years had been accidentally inserted because historians didn't realize that kings went by different names in different contexts.

When I read that, the first thing that occurred to me was "wouldn't this have to mean that Egyptian chronology was equally mixed-up?" because of course Egyptian records mention many of the same kings. The only mention of this was a single footnote that said something to the effect of 'if this is true then it would suggest the Pyramids, etc. have also been misdated".


I love this site. God help me, I do love it so.
   43. bunyon Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:41 PM (#4011853)
The other thing these theories suggest is that someone should give Julio Franco a NRI this season.
   44. Nasty Nate Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#4011861)
yes. but considering the marlins history, it could very well be that a 10/$275 million contract is allotted like this":

10, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, with 31 million deferred to a later date.

in this case, if the marlins intention was to trade him after the first year (as they did with carlos delgado), that no-trade clause does have a value--$265 million--and that value is exactly the reason that, no matter what pujols gave up in the negotiations, the no-trade clause was entirely off the table.


How does this make the no-trade clause worth $265 million?
   45. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:48 PM (#4011867)
Doesn't carbon dating pretty much flush this theory down the toilet right out of the gate. I thought 1 SD on 3000 years was supposed to be 30 years. If we were missing 300 years worth of history, we would have a whole bunch of artefacts that wouldn't align with the right periods...


IOW, just a few more make-believe centuries and the Shroud of Turin would be real.
   46. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:52 PM (#4011870)

Doesn't carbon dating pretty much flush this theory down the toilet right out of the gate. I thought 1 SD on 3000 years was supposed to be 30 years. If we were missing 300 years worth of history, we would have a whole bunch of artefacts that wouldn't align with the right periods...


Yes, along with a lot of other chronological correlates. The answer they give is that radiocarbon dating is calibrated by dendrochronology, and dendrochronology is calibrated by the erroneous historical records. There's a germ of truth to that, but only enough for them to misunderstand the whole chronological framework of ancient and medieval history.

We have coins of Charlemagne, for Christ's sake!
   47. McCoy Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:55 PM (#4011873)
Clearly you have fallen for the medieval chroniclers' lies.
   48. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:57 PM (#4011875)

IOW, just a few more make-believe centuries and the Shroud of Turin would be real.

There's a great "Secrets of the Dead" documentary on the Shroud. Turns out the carbon-dating sample may have been taken from an area tainted by damage and medieval repairs.

There's lots of interesting evidence presented both ways, i.e. some suggesting it's real, some suggesting it's fake.

The Sudarium of Oviedo has a much stronger provenance, and is claimed to be the face cloth from the Crucifixion.
   49. Shock Posted: December 09, 2011 at 10:59 PM (#4011877)

I love this site. God help me, I do love it so.


My favorite part was the "etc."
   50. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:19 PM (#4011898)
We have coins of Charlemagne, for Christ's sake!


We're talking about a massive conspiracy to invent three centuries of fake history, and you're hung up on a handful of fake coins?
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:22 PM (#4011906)

We're talking about a massive conspiracy to invent three centuries of fake history, and you're hung up on a handful of fake coins?

Were the Chinese in on it too?
   52. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#4011932)
Were the Chinese in on it too?


I said massive, didn't I? Anyway, that's sort of my point. If 600-900 AD never really happened, then you'd expect to run into some serious problems with aligning eastern and western histories. That would seem to be a much bigger issue than faking a handful of artifacts.
   53. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: December 09, 2011 at 11:59 PM (#4011968)
It was all a plot by Muhammad to convince the world that there was a religion called "Islam"..
   54. Karl from NY Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:09 AM (#4011979)
Wouldn't astronomy disprove the whole thing pretty easily? If you skipped 300 years then the positions of the planets and timing of eclipses would be all wrong.
   55. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:15 AM (#4011985)
Just great. This is going to totally fuck up my checking account.
   56. Misirlou's got a busy day, he's wearing a vest Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:16 AM (#4011986)
Wouldn't astronomy disprove the whole thing pretty easily? If you skipped 300 years then the positions of the planets and timing of eclipses would be all wrong.


Looks like someone didn't read the link in #14.
   57. Swedish Chef Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:16 AM (#4011987)
Wouldn't astronomy disprove the whole thing pretty easily? If you skipped 300 years then the positions of the planets and timing of eclipses would be all wrong.


Sure, but why bother, it's not like any of these theories have many adherents. It would be too kind to dignify them with a debunking.
   58. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:20 AM (#4011994)
Were the Chinese in on it too?

You seem to be assuming that this place called China actually exists. Now watch as some of the conspirators show up and claim to be from this "China" as you call it. Some people will actually claim to be there now. It's all a bunch of nonsense.
   59. Fancy Pants is braggadocious about his Handle Posted: December 10, 2011 at 12:50 AM (#4012023)
Just great. This is going to totally #### up my checking account.


I'd like to have your problems sit. I'm a programmer. You thought Y2K was bad?

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