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Friday, September 26, 2008

MASN: Kubatko: Jim Palmer on Moose

Which trumps Wade Boggs on Horse.

I just got off the phone with Jim Palmer, not realizing that he’s on the West Coast and I was catching him pretty early in the morning. Not that he seemed to mind. Anyway, put down Palmer as a “yes” vote for Mussina’s induction.

Palmer actually did a little research to aid his argument, placing a call to Elias and obtaining Mussina’s ERA differential vs. the rest of the league during the former Orioles’ career.

“He was 0.81. That’s significant,” Palmer said. “He was in the top five or six in his era. And he did pitch in the steroid era. He was pitching against cartoon characters. And he did pitch in a bandbox. Look what happened when Jamie Moyer got out of here. David Wells didn’t want to pitch here. Sterling Hitchcock said they should bomb the place.

“Now, (Mussina) did play on some good teams early on, but he wasn’t playing on great Oriole teams. Mike came up in ‘91 and he was a dominant pitcher of that era. He was the most consistent, along with maybe (Greg) Maddux. He pitched in the American League, which is arena baseball compared to the National League. Mike would have been even better if he had been over there.”

...An interesting side note: Palmer recently asked Mussina if he’s coming back next year. Mussina replied: “I don’t think so.”

“Of course, that could change,” Palmer said.

Repoz Posted: September 26, 2008 at 01:40 AM | 20 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, orioles, yankees

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   1. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:15 AM (#2956373)
Sigh.
   2. dirk Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:39 AM (#2956397)
Sigh, we have a Hall of Fame pitcher doing what we do to find out who's a Hall of Famer?
   3. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:49 AM (#2956407)
Mostly sigh, it's a myth that Camden Yards is a bandbox.
   4. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: September 26, 2008 at 05:01 AM (#2956412)
Sigh, we have a Hall of Fame pitcher doing what we do to find out who's a Hall of Famer?


This would be a good time to inform Jim that he doesn't have to put in a call to Elias to obtain that information.
   5. Curse of the Andino Posted: September 26, 2008 at 05:12 AM (#2956417)
This would be a good time to inform Jim that he doesn't have to put in a call to Elias to obtain that information.


Baby steps.

Actually, Jim had a great line during an early Yankee game, back when the O's had at least a few pitchers from Opening Day who hadn't gone on the DL. Something like, if Mussina had Kennedy's fastball, he'd be able to go out there and win 19 games, easy.

This amused me, but Palmer's a homer for players he saw doing things "The Oriole Way," and Mussina certainly qualifies.
   6. mashimaro Posted: September 26, 2008 at 06:02 AM (#2956438)
I hope the voters take their time deciding about Mussina. After the dominant pitchers are elected, I think it will help people evaluate Mussina better.
   7. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 26, 2008 at 09:08 AM (#2956466)
"Twenty wins doesn't have the same cache as it once did," Palmer said.

Sigh. "Cachet" is misused AND spelled incorrectly.
   8. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: September 26, 2008 at 11:31 AM (#2956477)
I don't know when Palmer talked to Mussina, but all of Moose's quotes lately seem to imply he wants to come back. Who knows, though.
   9. The cushions are crowded for Edmundo Posted: September 26, 2008 at 11:50 AM (#2956480)
As a Grammar Nazi Wannabe, I'd like to know what is wrong with the use of cachet in "Twenty wins doesn't have the same cachet as it once did," Palmer said.. It would seem match the definition behind door #4, courtesy of dictionary.com
1. an official seal, as on a letter or document.
2. a distinguishing mark or feature; stamp: Courtesy is the cachet of good breeding.
3. a sign or expression of approval, esp. from a person who has a great deal of prestige.
4. superior status; prestige: The job has a certain cachet.
   10. Joe Bivens, Idiot Posted: September 26, 2008 at 12:24 PM (#2956491)
Mostly sigh, it's a myth that Camden Yards is a bandbox.

Wasn't he talking about the old place? I'll RTFA.
   11. Joe Bivens, Idiot Posted: September 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM (#2956493)
Nope. Mostly Camden.
   12. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot Posted: September 26, 2008 at 12:41 PM (#2956499)
Mostly sigh, it's a myth that Camden Yards is a bandbox.

I'd back up a minute before saying that.

BB-Ref. says Camden Yards was a hitter's park up through 1995, but from 1996 through 2000 (Mussina's last year in Baltimore) it became a pitcher's park. At least according to the ballpark factor numbers.

But this one of those cases that bears closer examination. In 1996 the CY park factors were 95/94, and yet this was also a year where the Orioles hit 257 home runs. And while "only" 121 of those home runs were in Baltimore, that still projects to an overall level of 242, a total that would have constituted a Major League record for most of baseball's history. By comparison, the 1961 Yankees hit 240.

What I take from that isn't that Mussina gained any real advantage from pitching in Camden Yards, but that he was at a particular disadvantage from having to pitch in that era. The fact that there may have been even worse bandboxes doesn't mean that Camden Yards itself wasn't a pitcher's nightmare.
   13. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2956850)
BB-Ref. says Camden Yards was a hitter's park up through 1995, but from 1996 through 2000 (Mussina's last year in Baltimore) it became a pitcher's park. At least according to the ballpark factor numbers.

That's how it seemed at the time, too, at least to my eyes. Seemingly routine fly balls used to fly out of Camden. I don't know why that changed, but apparently the perception still hasn't.


As for Palmer, he can be insufferably boring as he rambles his way through O's games, but he is smarter than many announcers. Every now and then, buried within the babble, he'll drop a nugget that makes you realize he's figured some things out. Maybe he learned things from jousting with Earl.
   14. AROM Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:41 PM (#2956878)
Agreed on Palmer. He is definitely one of the smarter announcers out there. One of the few who I think if I met him in person, I could speak freely without trying to dumb down the stat speak so as not to lose the other guy.

I always though of Mussina as the next generation Jim Palmer, at least until he became a Yankee. To bad the Orioles didn't have the same quality of supporting cast.
   15. villageidiom Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:41 PM (#2956880)
This amused me, but Palmer's a homer for players he saw doing things "The Oriole Way," and Mussina certainly qualifies.

Q. What's "The Oriole Way"?

A. Leaving the Orioles.
   16. Nasty Nate Posted: September 26, 2008 at 04:46 PM (#2956894)
well, as long as we are nit-picking...

He was the most consistent, along with maybe (Greg) Maddux.


Yeah, maybe Maddux was consistent, but lets not go out on a limb and say he definitely was.
   17. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 26, 2008 at 05:26 PM (#2957021)
What I take from that isn't that Mussina gained any real advantage from pitching in Camden Yards, but that he was at a particular disadvantage from having to pitch in that era. The fact that there may have been even worse bandboxes doesn't mean that Camden Yards itself wasn't a pitcher's nightmare.

I agree that the replacement of older, roomier dual-use stadiums with Camden-like clones probably eliminated the competitive disadvantage Mussina pitched under early in his career, but it still made for a tough pitching environment. Going against a DH his entire career, much of it during the steroids era, in the AL East (usually one of the better divisions) also contributes to that environment. Under these circumstances, if Moose isn't a Hall of Famer, it's a pretty small Hall.
   18. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: September 26, 2008 at 05:37 PM (#2957050)
Also, IIRC, even after Camden became more of a pitcher's park overall, it was still a very good park for HRs.
   19. DFA Posted: September 26, 2008 at 06:19 PM (#2957133)
Also, IIRC, even after Camden became more of a pitcher's park overall, it was still a very good park for HRs.

This is my understanding as well, so in a sense it's a bandbox, but not a hitter's park. I do believe it favors righthanders moreso than lefthanders as well. It's death to doubles and triples though.
   20. Dingbat_Charlie Posted: September 26, 2008 at 06:54 PM (#2957186)
death to doubles

which'll make it a little more impressive if they become the first team with 3 guys to reach 50 in a season. Roberts, Markakis and Huff are at 51, 48, 48. Anybody who watches local broadcasts knows this because it's basically the only positive development they have to discuss lately.

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