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Monday, June 10, 2019

Max Muncy trades verbal barbs with Madison Bumgarner in Dodgers’ win - Los Angeles Times

By the time Muncy rounded first the two were in a full-blown argument, screaming and gesturing at each other. Plate umpire Will Little intervened, but the two were still jawing at each other as Muncy pulled into the plate.

“He took exception to me watching the ball, I guess,” Muncy said of Bumgarner. “He said, ‘You don’t watch the ball. You run.’ ”

And Muncy’s response?

“I told him, ‘If you don’t want me to watch the ball, you can go in the ocean and get it,’ ” he said. “I don’t even know if he heard it. As I was rounding the bases, I yelled it at him. He was yelling at me. We were kind of going back and forth and that was it. Just a couple guys competing.”

Jim Furtado Posted: June 10, 2019 at 06:07 AM | 159 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, madison bumgarner, max muncy

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   101. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 10, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5850205)
So if all the players in the old days were all reserved and respectful and courteous why are all the pitcher leaders in HBP career dominated by guys from way back? And if you toss the knuckleball guys and the guys know to be really wild for some or all of their careers the list is totally dominated by people who should not have had any reason to get upset. Jim Bunning clearly had great control. Why did he hit so many guys leading the league 4 years in a row? What was Don Drysdales' excuse?? I know nothing about Dave Stieb but in a short career guy led the league 5 times in HBP and googling he comes across as kind of an ass.
Well, the norms up until very recently (and continuing to some extent today, see #90 above) were that pitchers were sociopaths. They didn't need any more provocation to throw at a batter beyond things like the following:

--he is good
--his team is good
--he hit a homer off of me
--his teammate(s) hit a homer off of me
--he generally, or at least recently, hits the ball hard off of me
--he's a rookie and he's looking at me wrong
--I don't care how he's looking at me, he's a rookie
--he dug in a little too much
--he and his teammates need to be made more uncomfortable
--I am Dock Ellis and he plays for the Reds

So even if the hitters were respectful and courteous, they were still getting plunked.
   102. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:02 PM (#5850208)
I know nothing about Dave Stieb but in a short career guy led the league 5 times in HBP and googling he comes across as kind of an ass.


Dave Stieb would gladly have led the league in throwing at his teammates for making an error behind him. "Kind of" is kind of putting it gently.

So if all the players in the old days were all reserved and respectful and courteous why are all the pitcher leaders in HBP career dominated by guys from way back?


Generally, brushing guys back was just considered a far more acceptable part of the game then than it is now.

   103. Itchy Row Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:02 PM (#5850209)
If Muncy had hit the ball into the ocean, it would have been the most impressive foul ball ever. We would never have to talk about Mike Laga again.
   104. RoyalFlush Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5850212)
It's made me pro-lawyer, though.


It made me set all of my Larvell Blanks baseball cards on fire.
   105. bfan Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5850216)
So even if the hitters were respectful and courteous, they were still getting plunked


Somehow controlling for the tactical HBP guys (Ron Hunt and Don Baylor in the day; maybe Anthony Rizzo, today), aren't HBP way up now? I do not think Ron Hunt could survive today; I would bet a 98 mph fastball hurts a lot more (and not 6% more) than a 92 MPH fastball.
   106. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5850219)
Somehow controlling for the tactical HBP guys (Ron Hunt and Don Baylor in the day; maybe Anthony Rizzo, today), aren't HBP way up now?


The name you're looking for today is Tim Locastro.

But yes, HBPs in general are much more prevalent today. I'd guess the increase is a byproduct of a) changes by the batters and b) increased velocity making inside pitches harder to avoid. And, of course, changes in the rate of working inside.

   107. Zach Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5850221)
I think if people encountered even an average amount of pro sports celebration in a game where they were playing, they would discover their inner Bob Gibson.

When I played Ultimate in college, there was a team that would storm the endzone after every score, whooping and congratulating the guys on the field. They had a huge team, too -- whereas lots of teams might have seven guys on the field, plus maybe three subs, they would have 20 guys on the sidelines.

And everybody in the entire region completely hated those guys, in a way that didn't carry over to other, equally successful, equally large teams. We actually got invited to some tournaments on the basis of heckling those guys (from the stands) in a championship game. People figured that if we disliked them so much, we must be fun guys to have around.
   108. caspian88 Posted: June 10, 2019 at 03:56 PM (#5850227)
What Madison Bumgarner really needs to do is stop allowing so many home runs.

Obviously this is much easier said than done, but I'm kind of glad that he's likely to be gone after this season. I don't want to be stuck holding his contract (especially not in addition to Cueto/Crawford/Belt/Longoria/Posey).
   109. Brian C Posted: June 10, 2019 at 04:33 PM (#5850232)
If you throw your club in the air and start dancing around when your partner shanks one, I think you will soon discover exactly how tolerant golfers are of taunting. My guess is not very.

Well, this is precisely my point - golfers in general seem to be very capable of telling the difference between celebrating and taunting, both on the dishing it out and taking sides of the equation. I imagine you're right, though, that if golfers started behaving in bizarre ways that was obviously taunting, then that behavior would indeed be viewed as taunting. Likewise, I suspect a lot of the "Let the Kids Play" sentiment would lose momentum if hitters started laughing and yelling "IN YOUR FACE!!" every time a pitcher threw a wild pitch.

This doesn't really get us anywhere, though.
   110. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 10, 2019 at 04:47 PM (#5850237)
What Madison Bumgarner really needs to do is stop allowing so many home runs.
This is going to be very hard for him to do as long as he stays in San Francisco, what with global warming causing the sea level to rise and all. That ocean is only going to get closer to home plate.
   111. JAHV Posted: June 10, 2019 at 06:15 PM (#5850256)
As usual, I'm with SOSH on these things. I don't like preening OR yelling at opponents. The former, which includes most flips and staring for more than a negligible amount of time, is borne at least in part out of pride, and is some mixture of joy and boastfulness. The latter is a volatile mixture of anger and competitiveness. Both are unnecessary and contribute nothing to the actual gameplay of a baseball game, but both are harmless.
   112. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 10, 2019 at 07:52 PM (#5850272)
So I was listening to the Effectively Wild podcast on my way home from work, and the hosts discussed this. The beginning of their conversation was exactly this:

that...just doesn't make any sense.
Followed by this:

Maybe he meant: if you don't want to watch me watching my homerun, go get the ball. Out of the ocean.
Followed by this:

OK, so I think I've figured it out. What Muncy must have meant was that if Bumgarner would have immediately realized how far the homer was going to travel and, as the ball was still in the air, he had taken off running toward McCovey Cove, Muncy would have watched Bumgarner instead of the flight of the ball. Which makes sense, because how often do you see a pitcher running off the field and diving into the ocean during a game? I do think that would have gotten people's attention.
   113. Jack Sommers Posted: June 11, 2019 at 12:12 AM (#5850445)
The most interesting question about Bumgarner is do you want him on YOUR team ? Do you want your team to try to trade for him for the stretch run ?
   114. Lassus Posted: June 11, 2019 at 08:16 AM (#5850459)
As usual, I'm with SOSH on these things.

I generally am, but I really can't be here.

The "don't watch or be happy" position of Bumgarner's is a philosophy, and he absolutely feels it should apply to everybody, by literally speaking those words. No one who celebrates or watches their home run is giving speeches that everybody should do so.
   115. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 08:47 AM (#5850463)
The "don't watch or be happy" position of Bumgarner's is a philosophy, and he absolutely feels it should apply to everybody, by literally speaking those words.


That's actually the opposite of what he said.

"If they want to let everybody be themselves, let me be myself."

Moreover, it's not about what Madison Bumgarner thinks, any more than if Tim Anderson said everyone should flip bats it wouldn't mean a pro-flipper would have to agree with that position. Let everyone express themselves in whatever harmless manner they like, and barking is as harmless as gyrating.

I think baseball's better when the joyous, the stoic and the red ass are all represented. I think baseball's worse when any of these types resort to violence (and it's not just the red asses who are violent - I don't think Manny Machado or Jose Bautista qualify as that type, and they've been in scrapes of varying types).
   116. Lassus Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:06 AM (#5850465)
That's actually the opposite of what he said.
"If they want to let everybody be themselves, let me be myself."


That's a statement about MLB's position on watchers and his position on himself, neither of which I was talking about. I reproduced his position on HR-watchers accurately.

To be clear, I don't think your position is OMG SO WRONG WTF IS THE MATTER WITH YOU. I grok your stance and do not find it unreasonable at all. I simply think it's not accurate, because don't think that one side is reciprocal with the other.
   117. Lassus Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:10 AM (#5850466)
I think baseball's better when the joyous, the stoic and the red ass are all represented.

Well, sure.


I think baseball's worse when any of these types resort to violence (and it's not just the red asses who are violent - I don't think Manny Machado or Jose Bautista qualify as that type, and they've been in scrapes of varying types).

I also don't think that "both sides" is an accurate position either, between the history of pitches thrown at players and random weirdo hotheads.
   118. Nasty Nate Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:12 AM (#5850468)
That's actually the opposite of what he said.

"If they want to let everybody be themselves, let me be myself."
Oh, come on. Bumgarner wasn't yelling at Muncy because people got mad that he yelled at batters.

Let everyone express themselves in whatever harmless manner they like, and barking is as harmless as gyrating.
If you think this, you actually don't find Bumgarner's position valid, because he obviously disagrees.
   119. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:42 AM (#5850471)
That's a statement about MLB's position on watchers and his position on himself, neither of which I was talking about. I reproduced his position on HR-watchers accurately.


Has Madison Bumgarner pushed MLB to outlaw watching or be happy? Has he said anything remotely resembling that? Obviously no, so no you didn't.

If they want to let everybody be themselves (celebrating in whatever way they want), then let me be myself (barking when they celebrate). It's pretty straightforward. They're both expressions of emotion. They're both harmless.

If you think this, you actually don't find Bumgarner's position valid, because he obviously disagrees.


Nonsense. Even if I granted that Bumgarner is somehow trying to remove celebrating from the game (hint, he's not), a position I would certainly object to, it wouldn't change my opinion on harmless barking. I don't care why someone is harmlessly barking. Again, if some chronic flipper said everyone should flip or celebrate excessively, would that mean you automatically agreed with him? Of course not. You'd recognize how silly that position is.


   120. Nasty Nate Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5850473)
I don't understand what you mean. Are you claiming that Bumgarner's barking is not related to the celebrating/preening? That it has no content or message? Do you think that he agrees that it's OK for everyone to express themselves in whatever harmless manner they like?
   121. . Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:59 AM (#5850474)
Again, if some chronic flipper said everyone should flip or celebrate excessively, would that mean you automatically agreed with him? Of course not. You'd recognize how silly that position is.


I wouldn't be so sure about that. Maybe no one here holds that position, but rest assured that there is a wide contingent of Deadspin types out there who very much do. In its purest form, you'll see people including writers claim that there's a whiff or more of racism in the position that people shouldn't flip/celebrate to their heart's content.(*) If you haven't checked out Gawker/Deadspin, you should. It's an excellent bellweather.

(*) If Muncy hadn't been white, the Deadspinners would be accusing Bumgarner of racism and then people would have mildly defended him, kind of as they are here, and then they'd call the defenders racists, too. Generating/curating that Ritual is big business, and that's the ultimate precipitator of all of this. The bat flips aren't spontaneous; they've been generated to satisfy that demand. (And, again, it's purely an Instagram/HDTV thing; when you're actually at the games, you barely even notice this crap. Bat flips make good IG clips; that's a huge reason why they're being encouraged.)
   122. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:01 AM (#5850475)
Even if I granted that Bumgarner is somehow trying to remove celebrating from the game (hint, he's not)

SOSH U, you seem to be taking an extremely generous reading of Bumgarner's opinion of celebrating on the field.

Here's the money quote:

“I can’t even say it with a straight face, but the more I think about it, they should let the kids play,” Bumgarner said, poking fun at a Major League Baseball promotional campaign. “That’s what everybody’s saying … but I can’t.


Here Bumgarner is openly mocking and disagreeing with an an MLB campaign that specifically celebrates bat flipping, homerun staring, and otherwise supposedly immature / unsportsmanlike celebratory behavior.

I 100% agree with Nasty Nate, this is a "tolerance of intolerance" thing. Bumgarner is not just expressing himself or barking at the clouds, he's literally trying to police Muncy's behavior. (“He said, ‘You don't watch the ball. You run.’ ”) Bumgarner should shut up.

I agree that baseball is more enjoyable with a diversity of personalities and approaches to celebration or otherwise showing emotion on the field. But that's not what's happening here. One guy is celebrating and the other guy is telling him he's not allowed to celebrate like that, and is cynically justifying his behavior with by saying "OH I thought anything goes these days."
   123. . Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5850477)
I agree that baseball is more enjoyable with a diversity of personalities and approaches to celebration or otherwise showing emotion on the field. But that's not what's happening here. One guy is celebrating and the other guy is telling him he's not allowed to celebrate like that,


He's not celebrating, he's trolling.
   124. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5850478)

Are you claiming that Bumgarner's barking is not related to the celebrating/preening?


Of course not. What does it matter?

That it has no content or message?


I don't care what the message is (assuming it's not like racist or something similar. That would be a different story).

When Jose Bautista engaged in his #### You bat throw in the ALDS, that clearly was sending a message. Again, so what?

Do you think that he agrees that it's OK for everyone to express themselves in whatever harmless manner they like?


First of all, I don't care what he thinks, any more than your position on the matter should be influenced by how Tim Anderson feels on the subject. I have no idea what the relevance is.

But even with that, when he says, "you do your thing. I'll do mine," I'll take him at his word.

   125. Lassus Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:06 AM (#5850479)
re: #121 - Keep trying. Someone will bite eventually, I'm sure. In this thread or some other you've already tried it in.
   126. . Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5850481)
re: #121 - Keep trying. Someone will bite eventually, I'm sure.


Keep trying what?

Much as you'd like to think otherwise, I don't look for "bites." I have a long day ahead and no time to respond to anything, anyway.

Things are as I've written. That bothers some, apparently, I guess. It shouldn't, and I'd rather it didn't -- but so be it.
   127. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5850483)
I 100% agree with Nasty Nate, this is a "tolerance of intolerance" thing. Bumgarner is not just expressing himself or barking at the clouds, he's literally trying to police Muncy's behavior. (“He said, ‘You don't watch the ball. You run.’ ”) Bumgarner should shut up.


Except he's literally not doing that. He's just telling him to ####### run. He's not asking MLB to do something to outlaw it. He didn't throw at a Dodger in response. Those would be attempts to police it, and I would join you in condemning it. He didn't do those things.

In fact, the real money quote is "You do your thing, I'll do mine." Someone who was truly trying to police this behavior wouldn't say that.

   128. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:13 AM (#5850484)
Oh give me a break. He's telling Muncy how he's allowed to behave.
   129. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5850485)
Why do you think he mocked the "let the kids play" promotion? Does Bumgarner really strike you as a live and let live type of guy here?
   130. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:17 AM (#5850487)
Oh give me a break. He's telling Muncy how he's allowed to behave.


That's just flat nonsense.

Let me ask you this. At the end of the 2003 ALDS, when Derek Lowe struck out the final Oakland A and then made some crotch flapping gesture directly at the A's, would you seriously object to a member of the A's telling him to stop acting like a dick?

Why do you think he mocked the "let the kids play" promotion?


Because he doesn't like excessive celebrations. He's a red ass.

Does Bumgarner really strike you as a live and let live type of guy here?


Not really. But if doesn't do anything more than yell \"####### run," then he essentially is a live and let live type of guy.


   131. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:26 AM (#5850491)
That's just flat nonsense.

What do you think ‘You don't watch the ball. You run.’ is supposed to mean?
   132. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5850493)
At the end of the 2003 ALDS, when Derek Lowe struck out the final Oakland A and then made some crotch flapping gesture directly at the A's, would you seriously object to a member of the A's telling him to stop acting like a dick?

No, because that's unambiguously a dick move targeted directly at the opponent.

If Muncy had obviously leered at Bumgarner or similar, I'd say Bumgarner would be justified in barking back at him. But Muncy didn't.

In Korea and DR and such, players are allowed to peacock around the bases and nobody takes offense because it's understood that it's not meant to be offensive. Bumgarner is on the exact opposite of this, he clearly believes that any such behavior is necessarily offensive.
   133. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:44 AM (#5850498)
What do you think ‘You don't watch the ball. You run.’ is supposed to mean?


It means exactly what he said. Since it carries no weight, it's meaningless. No one has shown any actual harm in what Bumgarner said.

No, because that's unambiguously a dick move targeted directly at the opponent.


So, you do believe in telling people how they're allowed to behave. You're just drawing the line at a different place (and we'll ignore for a second you're telling Bumgarner how to behave).

   134. jmurph Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:53 AM (#5850500)
SoSH if you would actually just be honest and state clearly that you think what Muncy did was bad this would be going better. Because it's the only way your position makes any sense. If what Muncy did was harmless, which you're claiming to believe, then obviously a man yelling at him on the field in response could not possibly be considered harmless. Yelling at someone for no reason puts you in the wrong! By definition!

This is entirely out of character and that your approach is indistinguishable from ####### Sugar Bear should give you pause.
   135. jmurph Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:55 AM (#5850501)
Two days of this! Completely ridiculous.
   136. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 10:59 AM (#5850503)
SoSH if you would actually just be honest and state clearly that you think what Muncy did was bad this would be going better. Because it's the only way your position makes any sense.


First, of all, in this specific case, it doesn't appear Muncy did anything wrong, and was possibly a proxy for the umpire.

If what Muncy did was harmless, which you're claiming to believe, then obviously a man yelling at him on the field in response could not possibly be considered harmless. Y


This is where I'm truly at a loss. What was this obvious harm?
   137. jmurph Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5850505)
Bullshit! He was being an #######! Just ####### acknowledge he was being an #######. This is maddening.
   138. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5850506)
Bullshit! He was being an #######! Just ####### acknowledge he was being an #######. This is maddening.


Sure, he was being as #######. It's kind of his default setting.

Now your turn to answer the damn question. What was the ####### harm?

   139. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5850507)
So, you do believe in telling people how they're allowed to behave. You're just drawing the line at a different place


Sure.

(and we'll ignore for a second you're telling Bumgarner how to behave).


Oh for christ's sake, this is like some SBB ####.

edit, ha, had not read #134 yet
   140. jmurph Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:10 AM (#5850510)
I'm calling the idea there's any substantive difference between two harmless acts ridiculous. That's where the actual contradiction rests.

This was a thing you posted yesterday. You've now admitted Bumgarner was being an #######. You're still pretending to believe, for some unknown reason, that Muncy wasn't being an #######. And yet you maintain there was no difference between the two things. Hmmmm.
   141. PreservedFish Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5850511)
SOSH is saying that being an ####### isn't harmful. Questionable claim. I mean it's clearly not as harmful as headhunting is, but the world is better when people don't act like ########.
   142. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5850513)
This was a thing you posted yesterday. You've now admitted Bumgarner was being an #######. You're still pretending to believe, for some unknown reason, that Muncy wasn't being an #######. And yet you maintain there was no difference between the two things. Hmmmm.


I also posted yesterday I thought Bumgarner was a dick for the way he acts. So I'm not suddenly admitting something. Sorry to break that to you.

I've never pretended or not pretended that Muncy did anything wrong.

I'm maintaining there's no meaningful difference between excessively celebrating and ######## about excessive celebrating (which, in this case, doesn't even appear to have happened). When Bumgarner mouths some toothless, "just ####### run," we should treat it with the same indifference we do some reliever's signature dance move after a big seventh-inning K.

Once again, could you answer my ####### question?
   143. pikepredator Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5850516)
I'm running out of popcorn so . . . from where I sit people are talking past each other. SOSH seems to be saying "do what you want on the field, be demonstrative in whatever way you want, more color is fine by me, just don't throw things at each other" I agree. Particularly in the modern age, the reality is that MLB needs more twitter fodder, more gif-able and captionable moments. Bat flips do that. Pitchers getting their feelings hurt does that. Stoic silence in the face of success and failure (admittedly my style, particularly when I fail) is dull.

It's the peculiar nature of Bumgarner's method of being demonstrative that seems to be the rub. Because his demonstration is basically to say "stop demonstrating!". But he can yell that all he wants - maybe it makes him a hypocrite, but whatever. He's clearly one of those old-school/unwritten rules "don't hurt my feelings" guys. Bumgarner can yell "stop yelling" or whatever all he wants and it won't make Muncy change his behavior and - as long as it doesn't escalate to a ###-for-tat beanball war - won't cause any harm.

I mean, what if Bumgarner yelled "don't hit another HR off me, fartknocker!!" Would people still be on this idea that he's "policing" Muncy? He's showing emotion. It just happens that the way he shows emotion is to say "stop showing emotion". Which is kinda silly, but I don't know why it's being put on SOSH.
   144. Nasty Nate Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5850517)
I don't think it's ridiculous to think there's a difference between being a dick and not being a dick.
   145. jmurph Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:23 AM (#5850518)
It is self-evident that acting like an ####### is a bad thing. That's why there is a name for it that includes the word ass, and it's why it's considered an insult and a swear word and I wouldn't like my children using the term. This does not need to be explained to you.

The only way a non-psychopath could believe that being an ####### is fine is by believing that it was a justifiable response to something. ### for tat. The only possible way this is coherent:
I'm maintaining there's no meaningful difference between excessively celebrating and ######## about excessive celebrating (which, in this case, doesn't even appear to have happened). When Bumgarner mouths some toothless, "just ####### run," we should treat it with the same indifference we do some reliever's signature dance move after a big seventh-inning K.

is if you believe that a. there is excessive celebrating happening and b. excessive celebrating makes one an #######.
   146. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5850522)
SOSH is saying that being an ####### isn't harmful. Questionable claim. I mean it's clearly not as harmful as headhunting is, but the world is better when people don't act like ########.


Sure, it's possible the world would be a better place if there were no dickheads. We can't really know that, because that world has never existed. It could also be pretty ####### boring.

I'm absolutely confident that baseball, an entertainment product, would be more boring without dickheads.

It is self-evident that acting like an ####### is a bad thing. That's why there is a name for it that includes the word ass, and it's why it's considered an insult and a swear word and I wouldn't like my children using the term. This does not need to be explained to you.


So do you guys believe all kinds of yelling of this sort are "harmful?"

"That was a ####### strike, blue!"

"Throw the damn ball, Trachsel!"

"Quit ########, Ortiz."

   147. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5850524)
What an insufferable jackass.
   148. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5850526)
What an insufferable jackass.


Nice to see you too, BLB.

(I can only assume that was directed at me).

   149. Nasty Nate Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5850530)
It's the peculiar nature of Bumgarner's method of being demonstrative that seems to be the rub. Because his demonstration is basically to say "stop demonstrating!". But he can yell that all he wants - maybe it makes him a hypocrite, but whatever.....

....It just happens that the way he shows emotion is to say "stop showing emotion". Which is kinda silly, but I don't know why it's being put on SOSH.
It was put on SOSH because he was finger-wagging at the people who would point out that maybe it makes him a hypocrite or that it is kinda silly.
   150. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5850539)
It's the peculiar nature of Bumgarner's method of being demonstrative that seems to be the rub. Because his demonstration is basically to say "stop demonstrating!". But he can yell that all he wants - maybe it makes him a hypocrite, but whatever. He's clearly one of those old-school/unwritten rules "don't hurt my feelings" guys. Bumgarner can yell "stop yelling" or whatever all he wants and it won't make Muncy change his behavior and - as long as it doesn't escalate to a ###-for-tat beanball war - won't cause any harm.

There is also the fact that Muncy did zero celebrating. He hit a huge home run, dropped his bat, took two steps, and was jogging down the line after two seconds. Bumgarner was angry so he ran over and started screaming at him. Lots of pitchers scream after making poor pitches and giving up hits, but screaming at someone is a clear escalation.

Bumgarner acted like a jerk and tried to excuse his outburst by saying that he was provoked. He wasn’t. There is no reason for fans to excuse his bad behavior and it is good for people to acknowledge that his behavior was unwarranted. It isn’t like he is going to face any professional repercussions so a little public condemnation is an appropriate avenue to police this type of stuff.
   151. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5850542)
It was put on SOSH because he was finger-wagging at the people who would point out that maybe it makes him a hypocrite or that it is kinda silly.


All I said was that we should let the kids play and let the old guys be cranky about it. I noted yesterday and again today that I personally think Bumgarner's an ass. But I kind of think that about guys whose celebrations seem defiant too. But all of them should, ultimately, be treated the same (by treating, I mean that we should no more try to excise Bumgarner's red assedness from the game than we should Tim Anderson's flamboyance).

By the way, is Bumgarner really being hypocritical? If he were telling guys to stop celebrating and then celebrating himself, that would definitely make him a hypocrite. Otherwise, he's just kind of doing what all of us are doing (telling others he doesn't like the way they're behaving - just in his case more directly).
   152. pikepredator Posted: June 11, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5850565)
There is also the fact that Muncy did zero celebrating. He hit a huge home run, dropped his bat, took two steps, and was jogging down the line after two seconds. Bumgarner was angry so he ran over and started screaming at him. Lots of pitchers scream after making poor pitches and giving up hits, but screaming at someone is a clear escalation.


I am used to pitchers over-reacting to what I'd consider zero celebrating. And while I agree with you, he watched the ball for a moment and didn't simply lay the bat down, he did that little flippity-flop. Which in old-school circles probably violated the "put your head down and run hard" credo.

I'd totally watch a HR if I hit one like that. If I was Bumgarner, I'd be pissed (and possibly yelling) at myself. But usually I try not to let the opponent see that they got under my skin by defeating me. Don't want the next hitter thinking I'm fresh meat.
   153. JAHV Posted: June 11, 2019 at 01:05 PM (#5850569)
Well, I guess I will deviate - I wish all of them would shut up and play. Don't watch your homeruns or flip your bats, don't yell at guys, and just play the game. I, for one, do NOT think the game is necessarily better for having different personalities. Human beings are unique, of course, but I'm not interested in baseball having villains. I'd like everyone to be generally happy out there; I want everyone to be a good guy. The game itself creates enough tension and drama for me.
   154. . Posted: June 11, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5850588)
The pitchers aren't really reacting to "celebrating," they're reacting to what they perceive as taunting or showing them up. Wide swaths of them perceive it this way. Typically, one would at least at first glance defer to that -- and in many areas of life we do; think about a man acting in a way that women don't like in the workplace -- but for some reason that isn't happening here and a bunch of people, many of whom have never played sports, are insisting that we substitute their perspective for the pitchers'.(*)

Which can only mean that something beyond just baseball is going on here.

(*) Why on Earth would we ever do that? Madison Bumgarner says he found behavior affecting him provocative, some non-athlete on the internet says he shouldn't have seen it that way. What possible reason would there be to believe Random Internet Guy over the guy who's right there in the middle of it?
   155. . Posted: June 11, 2019 at 01:36 PM (#5850591)
In Korea and DR and such, players are allowed to peacock around the bases and nobody takes offense


You've said this before and there still isn't an iota of proof that it's true. As far as we know, no one overtly takes offense -- and we don't really even know that -- but that's an entirely different thing altogether. Maybe the culture browbeats them into outward conformity, kind of like what people are trying to do in the US.

And the mere fact that you'd cite other cultures perfectly demonstrates the point that there's more than just baseball going on here.
   156. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: June 11, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5850593)
Not such a long day after all, I guess.
   157. BillWallace Posted: June 11, 2019 at 08:30 PM (#5850761)
Chiming in late, but I'm 100% with SoSH here.

I think you guys aren't properly putting yourselves in the shoes of sore losers. As an extremely sore loser myself I see the issue more clearly. You guys are so hung up on the words and the form of the ungracious losing, and giving it a literal interpretation. But we know that it's not literal! And in fact we have the rare instance of Bumgarner explicitly saying that it's not when he acknowledges that Muncy is allowed to do his thing.

Many (including myself) are quick to defend bat-flips and other ungracious winning as emotional reactions in the heat of the moment that don't need reason applied to them, and that's fine. Bumgarner is just asking for the same treatment.

It is absolutely possible to be fine with bat-flips and also be fine with Bumgarner.


   158. Brian C Posted: June 11, 2019 at 08:57 PM (#5850769)
Many (including myself) are quick to defend bat-flips and other ungracious winning as emotional reactions in the heat of the moment that don't need reason applied to them

Maybe many are, but I think most people in this thread don't see bat-flips and related antics as "ungracious" in the first place, and therefore the whole point is that Muncy's behavior and Bumgarner's behavior are not in fact the flip sides of the same coin.
   159. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:06 PM (#5850771)
A guy screaming at a guy, telling him what he should and should not do is NOT telling him how to act.

#######. Hell.
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