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Saturday, August 20, 2011

McClelland: Clean or not, Thome belongs in Hall of Fame

McClelland…and?...and?...and?...and?...and…just ####### say it!

Even so, I find this widespread attempted canonization of Thome somewhat laughable, as if there’s no way he could ever have been involved with performance-enhancing drugs.

Maybe he used HGH. There was no testing. Or maybe, unlike dopey Manny Ramirez, he was just smart enough not to get caught. And maybe, because he was such a “nice guy,” some who cover baseball for a living are giving him a free pass.

Because that’s the way it works, and that’s the way it will work when it’s time to put Thome in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Barry Bonds is a jerk, so no benefit of the doubt is extended to him, but Thome — because he does a few interviews and smiles for the camera once in a while — gets it in spades.

...Thome gets my vote because nobody ever will know exactly who took what when, not to mention all the pitchers who obviously were using PEDs during that same period.

And anyone who tells you they know for sure that Thome had no chemical help along the way, even if just for a short while to help him recover from his chronic back issues, is simply seeing what they want to see.

Repoz Posted: August 20, 2011 at 01:55 AM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: fantasy baseball, hall of fame, history, projections, rumors, steroids

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   1. Bob Tufts Posted: August 20, 2011 at 03:18 AM (#3904588)
Let's play the home version of the "guilt by association" game.

According to his bio. McClelland attended Cleveland State when Kevin Mackey was basketball coach. Mackey was cuaght DUI and admitted to being an alcoholic and a cocaine user.

Since McClelland was a Cleveland State during this time, by his own space-time continuum logic, he may have had access to illicit drugs.

I'm not accusing him of using cocaine, I'm just saying that we cannot prove he didn't use cocaine while a Viking.

(passive/aggresive sarcasm alert)
   2. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: August 20, 2011 at 05:23 AM (#3904632)
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is just a smidgen, an eensy-weensy, just a tiny bit more evidence that Barry Lamar used PED's than Thome.
   3. Srul Itza At Home Posted: August 20, 2011 at 05:25 AM (#3904633)
I would call McClelland an assclown, but it would be defamatory to assclowns everywhere.

Do not click through.
   4. Tripon Posted: August 20, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#3904642)
Thread hijack.

Miami Football should probably get the Death Penalty.
   5. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: August 20, 2011 at 06:15 AM (#3904644)
As someone who opposes capital punishment and any form of torture, I'm here to tell you- Miami should be waterboarded and then garroted.
   6. Walt Davis Posted: August 20, 2011 at 06:56 AM (#3904653)
Let's play the home version of the "guilt by association" game.

Why? I didn't RTFA but in the excerpt McClelland isn't playing the guilt by association game, he's playing the we'll never know who didn't use so ignore that #### and base your HoF vote on baseball accomplishment game.

And no rational person can disagree with the claim that nobody can verify that Thome didn't use.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is just a smidgen, an eensy-weensy, just a tiny bit more evidence that Barry Lamar used PED's than Thome.

Yes but there's no more evidence that Sosa used than that Thome used.

But yeah, this is the only real counter-argument to McClelland. McGwire admitted using; Bonds (knowing or unknowingly) almost certainly used; Manny and Palmeiro tested positive -- surely we can hold PED use against them if we are so inclined while treating everybody else as innocent until proven guilty. (There are counter-arguments to that as well, especially as regards use pre-testing/CBA agreement.)
   7. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: August 20, 2011 at 07:14 AM (#3904658)
Yes but there's no more evidence that Sosa used than that Thome used.


But the excerpt did not reference Sosa, and my snark was in response to this article.
   8. Greg K Posted: August 20, 2011 at 09:00 AM (#3904662)
I liked the headline better than the excerpt.

I don't see why it's so hard for writers to write up a comprehensive retrospective of Thome's career and Hall of Fame chances without once mentioning PEDs.
(After reading the headline I was hoping the article would be about Thome's career, and how he doesn't need any "clean" bonus to get in)
   9. pinball1973 Posted: August 20, 2011 at 10:08 AM (#3904664)
Cheeses! "Sportswriting"! What a racket! This guy got money - a fair amount - for two things everyone has. One is an "opinion".
   10. stevegamer Posted: August 20, 2011 at 10:13 AM (#3904667)
Actually, there is at least one person who knows for sure whether Thome used or not - Thome himself. However, he's not been caught, or really suspected of anything by anyone credible.

There's no "benefit of the doubt" for Bonds, because there's a whole lot of evidence that he's used things.

McClelland would get the benefit of the doubt regarding someone suggesting he's a pedophile or a terrorist ( or anything else where we have no proof or suspicion of things), but he would not get the benefit of the doubt regarding being an insufferable jackass, because we have this article.
   11. simon bedford Posted: August 20, 2011 at 11:43 AM (#3904680)
Hey Steve
Where was this whole bunch of evidence when the Governement recently took Bonds to trial? Or did you mean that kind of eveidence that you sort of know but cant actually produce?
   12. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: August 20, 2011 at 12:39 PM (#3904689)
Hey Steve
Where was this whole bunch of evidence when the Governement recently took Bonds to trial? Or did you mean that kind of eveidence that you sort of know but cant actually produce?


Contrary to popular opinion, Bonds was not on trial for using PEDs. There's plenty of evidence that he used, but that was not what he was charged with.
   13. bfan Posted: August 20, 2011 at 01:21 PM (#3904713)
And to further this thought, whether or not Thome beat his wife; molested children; or dated farm animals, he belongs in the hall of fame.
   14. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: August 20, 2011 at 01:31 PM (#3904721)
Yes but there's no more evidence that Sosa used than that Thome used.


A 2009 New York Times article reporting Sosa's positive test under the 2003 survey testing arrangement.


Frankly, I don't understand the uproar in this thread. A pretty common refrain on BBTF is "...[Player X] gets my vote because nobody ever will know exactly who took what when, not to mention all the pitchers who obviously were using PEDs during that same period." The author is just applying the same logic which has been used to defend Barry Bonds in umpteen threads on this site to Jim Thome.


"And anyone who tells you they know for sure that Thome had no chemical help along the way, even if just for a short while to help him recover from his chronic back issues, is simply seeing what they want to see." I'm fairly certain I've read the same argument, on this site, being used to accuse power hitters like Reggie Jackson and power pitchers like Nolan Ryan.

:/

Edit: Unrelated. Query to the BBTF historians: has anybody ever used a Heinie Manush joke in their handle? If not, I'm totally gonna switch to one... if I can haz help figuring out how.
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: August 20, 2011 at 01:42 PM (#3904732)

A 2009 New York Times article reporting Sosa's positive test under the 2003 survey testing arrangement.



That is pretty much a joke article. Nobody takes that article seriously.

Frankly, I don't understand the uproar in this thread.


Me neither, but I didn't read the article, from the title and the excerpt it seems the article says that whether Thome took or not he belongs in the hof, and people who think he is clearly clean are idiots. Both seems pretty obvious to me.
   16. Bob Tufts Posted: August 20, 2011 at 03:00 PM (#3904767)
we'll never know who didn't use


Shouldn't the standard be "we know who used"? Otherwise it really messes up my Venn diagram of the "Steroid Era".
   17. Chris Fluit Posted: August 20, 2011 at 03:05 PM (#3904773)
I'm sympathetic to the argument that Thome's numbers are good enough for the Hall of Fame on their own and he doesn't need an additional "he's clean" narrative. This wasn't it.
   18. RMc's Unenviable Situation Posted: August 20, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3904830)
I saw your friend 1st
That's who I danced with
All the time I was watchin' U

The music rocked us
Our eyes locked-thus
Makin' us see a trippy picture shoo

If a man is considered guilty
4 what goes on in his mind
Then give me the electric chair
4 all my future crimes-OH!

U whispered something
It took my mind out like a
G flat major with an E in the bass
Your face looked so good
I wanted to touch your mouth
My brain is jackin' all over the place

If a man is considered guilty
4 what goes on in his mind
Then give me the electric chair
4 all my future crimes-OH!
   19. simon bedford Posted: August 20, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3904943)
plenty of what evidence that He used? i havent seen anything that says that Bonds absolutley without a doubt used this or that , I have read plenty of speculative articles , I have heard rumours that He tested positive for something and since the federal case involved steriods proving He did them was pretty important and based on what I heard they didnt really have a case and seems like a judge more or less decided they didn't either. But yeah I guess a bunch of guys on a baseball message board know better , I am sure with all this evidence you could have at least had a shot at that perjury case.

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