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Tuesday, February 18, 2014

McClendon rips Yanks’ Long for Cano critique

McClendon said Long overstepped his bounds with his critique of Cano’s effort with New York and defended the Mariners’ prized offseason free-agent acquisition.

“Last time I checked, I didn’t know that Kevin Long was the spokesman for the New York Yankees,” McClendon told ESPN.com. “That was a little surprising. I was a little pissed off, and I’m sure Joe [Girardi] feels the same way. He’s concerned with his team and what they’re doing, not what the Seattle Mariners players are doing.

“I’m a little surprised that Kevin Long is the spokesman for the New York Yankees. I wonder if he had any problems with Robbie when he wrote that book [“Cage Rat”] proclaiming himself as the guru of hitting.”

Long responded to the criticism later Tuesday.

“That’s too bad,” he said. “I don’t consider myself the spokesman for the Yankees. If you look at all the good things that were written about Robinson you would understand there was no malicious meaning behind any of it. If he wants to speak publicly like that, that is up to him. That is the way he interpreted it. I’m not going to get in a media war with Lloyd McClendon; he’d probably win that anyway.

...McClendon said he doesn’t feel a need to address the hustle issue with Cano, who took part in the Mariners’ first full-squad workout Tuesday.

“I understand,” McClendon said. “I get it. I was a major league player. There are times when you hit balls and you’re frustrated as hell and you don’t give it 100 percent. As long as you don’t dog it down the line, what’s the difference between 65 and 85 percent? Just run down the line. Sometimes that stuff is blown out of proportion.

“To me, the most important thing is the guy goes out there for 160 games a year, he hits .330, he drives in over 100 runs and he hits 25 to 30 home runs. I just need Robinson to be Robinson. Like all the rest of my guys know, just don’t dog it. Am I expecting you to give me 110 percent down the baseline every night? No. I’m expecting you to give me a good effort.”

Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said he has no plans to talk to Long about his comments, but he was a little taken aback by them.

“I was surprised,” Cashman said.

“I never had an issue with Robbie. He played every day. He played nearly every inning and he performed.”

Thanks to Carlos.

Repoz Posted: February 18, 2014 at 04:36 PM | 138 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mariners, yankees

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   1. attaboy Posted: February 18, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4658693)
I completely agree with LC!
   2. JE (Jason) Posted: February 18, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4658699)
Long's out on an island.
   3. bfan Posted: February 18, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4658704)
Am I expecting you to give me 110 percent down the baseline every night? No. I’m expecting you to give me a good effort.”


So, perhaps 100% effort every night?
   4. madvillain Posted: February 18, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4658719)
#### Long for actually trolling Seattle's sports talk radio into devoting time to covering and reacting to this "story". Both 710 and 1090 have devoted at least an hour each to this crap, taking calls on it and everything. Instead of talking actual baseball news (or more likely, SEAHWAWKS) they are talking this, making my morning commute a little more aggravating.
   5. Brett "The Hitman" Gardner Posted: February 18, 2014 at 05:56 PM (#4658727)
To pick up a point from the earlier Kevin Long-Cano thread, Ben Lindbergh at BP ran the numbers and came up with Cano giving up approximately 35 hits over his career on groundballs if he ran down the line like a 50 grade runner (in line with his scouting reports) instead of like a 40 grade runner (the 4.30 he averaged on double play balls). Jeter on the other hand gained about 101 hits on groundballs over the average right handed base runner. Lindbergh is smart about couching his language and recognizing that Cano hits the ball harder than most, Jeter relies on ground ball hits more than most and was faster than Cano at peak, and, perhaps most importantly, the per-season value of those lost hits would be nullified by missing even a week or so to injury. Seemed like a very strong starting point on what is actually lost by a lack of hustle.

Cano's career line if Lindbergh is right would be .316/.363/.511 instead of .309/.355/.504.
   6. Lars6788 Posted: February 18, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4658729)

Cano's career line if Lindbergh is right would be .316/.363/.511 instead of .309/.355/.504.


I'm all for busting it down the line and appearing that you at least give a damn, but is there really that much of a difference to quibble about?
   7. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: February 18, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4658730)
I suppose it says something bad about me that:

(A) I had thought, for whatever reason, that Long was black, until I read this criticism, at which point I
(B) began to wonder if there was a racial component to Long's criticisms of Cano, and then
(C) only then thought of the fact that (B) could still be true even if Long was black.

Mostly I wonder where I got the idea that Kevin Long was black.
   8. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 18, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4658736)
Mostly I wonder where I got the idea that Kevin Long was black.


You probably had him mixed up with Bingo Long. It's a common mistake.
   9. madvillain Posted: February 18, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4658745)
I'm all for busting it down the line and appearing that you at least give a damn, but is there really that much of a difference to quibble about?


Yea seriously, it's such a minor quibble it's effectively irrelevant. How many hits have been lost by showing to spring training out of shape and pulling up lame two weeks in? How many hits have been lost by busting down the line on the .001% chance the fielder screws it up and pulling a hammy? How many hits have been lost to shots at the bar the night before? Robbie Cano is a 6 WAR a season baseball player that averages 160 games a year. That's the bottom line, not some absurd obsession with busting ass on routine ground balls.
   10. Monty Posted: February 18, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4658747)
This seems like it's mostly McClendon making a big show of sticking up for his players. And that's probably a good move for a first-time manager right before spring training starts. Make sure everyone knows you're on their side, you know?
   11. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:04 PM (#4658750)
What are the Mariners going to do with Nick Franklin now that they have signed Cano? Is he trade bait?
   12. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:11 PM (#4658753)
I guess it's a slow news day for the Spring Training beat writers...
   13. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:12 PM (#4658755)
This seems like it's mostly McClendon making a big show of sticking up for his players. And that's probably a good move for a first-time manager right before spring training starts. Make sure everyone knows you're on their side, you know?


I know it barely counts as major league experience but McClendon managed the Pirates once upon a time. That's where he authored his scintillating book, You CAN Steal First Base.
   14. Publius Publicola Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4658756)
McClendon added "Of course, like anyone else, I'd rather have Pedroia. But that doesn't give Long the right to slag my player!"
   15. tfbg9 Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4658760)
McClendon doesn't want to put any pressure on Cano to sprint like a lunatic on every ground ball, he just wants him to hit ~.330/28/105 and only miss 2 games per season.

No problem.
   16. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4658761)
What are the Mariners going to do with Nick Franklin now that they have signed Cano? Is he trade bait?

They moved their 2B to the outfield last year, they can do it again.
   17. Monty Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4658764)
I know it barely counts as major league experience but McClendon managed the Pirates once upon a time.


Well, see, my problem was that I stopped reading midway through this sentence on Wikipedia:

After retiring from playing, McClendon served as a hitting coach for the Pirates until he was appointed manager after the 2000 season.
   18. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4658765)
I know it barely counts as major league experience but McClendon managed the Pirates once upon a time.

I'm sure he would have reacted the same way if some coach bad-mouthed one of the McClendon-era Pirates' star free agent signings, like Randall Simon or Pokey Reese.
   19. Moeball Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:40 PM (#4658766)
McClendon doesn't want to put any pressure on Cano to sprint like a lunatic on every ground ball, he just wants him to hit ~.330/28/105 and only miss 2 games per season.


In Seattle, with a park that doesn't exactly play like Yankee Stadium.

Good luck with that.
   20. bookbook Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:55 PM (#4658769)
He'll settle for 6 or 7 WAR, no matter the shape.
   21. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 18, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4658770)
I'm all for busting it down the line and appearing that you at least give a damn, but is there really that much of a difference to quibble about?

Seven points of BA and 15 points of OPS in exchange for merely not loafing?

Yeah, it's worth quibbling about.
   22. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4658773)
Seven points of BA and 15 points of OPS in exchange for merely not loafing?

Yeah, it's worth quibbling about.


Start by quibbling with the players who miss 15-20 games a year. A guy averages 160 games a year (a middle infielder no less), with outstanding production? There's a whole host of players to rip before I get to him.
   23. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:02 PM (#4658774)
It's an interesting point, albeit not a testable one. Emmitt Smith got a lot of #### early in his career for running out of bounds or getting on the ground once he'd gotten the yards he felt like he could get--but he did it specifically to avoid injury, and he was the most durable running back ever.
   24. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:10 PM (#4658777)
It's an interesting point, albeit not a testable one. Emmitt Smith got a lot of #### early in his career for running out of bounds or getting on the ground once he'd gotten the yards he felt like he could get--but he did it specifically to avoid injury, and he was the most durable running back ever.


As I've said in these threads, I think it's highly unlikely that healthy players are putting themselves at risk by making it a habit to run upon making contact. Not balls out, but running hard enough where acceleration to top speed can be done easily enough.* It seems that loafing out of the box, only to try to suddenly accelerate once a mistake has been made, is more likely to lead to injury than to routinely run out of the box.

I think there's a meaningful difference between avoiding hits on the football field (a sensible approach, perfected by my all-time favorite homicidal wide receiver) and not running out ground balls a few times a game. And while it's not proof of anything, it's notable that the ballplayer most known for his hustling ways also happens to be the all-time leader in plate appearances.

* None of this applies to players who have already suffered leg/groin injuries. If you're an existing injury risk, then I support more prudence in the matter.
   25. zonk Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4658778)
Seven points of BA and 15 points of OPS in exchange for merely not loafing?

Yeah, it's worth quibbling about.


But it takes an awful lot of normalization and assumptions to actually get to those 7/15 points -- I'd say that's the absolute highest possible end of the equation... It assumes, for example, that Cano is a 40 runner and not a 50 runner solely because "he doesn't hustle". I don't think we can prove that's true.
   26. Bruce Markusen Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4658781)
This isn't just about Cano not running out ground balls to second base, it's about not running hard on drives into the corners and into the gaps, where he settles for a double instead of getting a triple, or settles for a single instead of getting a double. And also the times he was thrown out trying to advance an extra base after not running hard out of the box. There was a game last year against the White Sox where Cano should have easily had a double and instead got thrown out at second base; it was during the series when Rodriguez returned from the DL.

If you add up all of the above situations, then it doesn't seem quite so trivial anymore. Could it cost a team a loss in a one-run game? Of course it could.

I'm no fan of Kevin Long as a batting coach, but all he did here was give an honest (and accurate) answer to questions about Cano. Anybody who has ever watched Cano knows that what Long said was simply and unquestionably the truth.

Furthermore, the majority of what he said about Cano was positive; a fraction of what he said was actual criticism. You can think that's a "rip job," but you'd be wrong. Criticism is not the same as "ripping."
   27. Lars6788 Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:36 PM (#4658785)
It's all about perception - some announcer moans about Cano failing to take the extra base hit and it's repeated over and over as the narrative - when any number of plays where Cano didn't apparently hustle might not be as clear cut as someone might want to believe in his mind.

Cano is not a gazelle, he's not a Puig so maybe someone like Willie Bloomquist should take him aside on the backfields in Peoria somewhere and teach him how to bust it out of the box faster.
   28. TJ Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:56 PM (#4658790)
Long says he believes Jeter spoke to Cano about loafing many times. Cano obviously didn't listen, which makes him Satan Incarnate...
   29. jdennis Posted: February 18, 2014 at 09:31 PM (#4658795)
McClendon wants Cano to steal bases.
   30. Jeff R., P***y Mainlander Posted: February 18, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4658799)
McClendon added "Of course, like anyone else, I'd rather have Pedroia. But that doesn't give Long the right to slag my player!"


Thanks for the exciting, content-filled post as usual, jackass! So glad you are here! Sorry that even a former Yankee draws far more interest than any Red Sox player!

Note to the moderators: You realize you can (and should) ban people who post nothing but troll-bait. Right?
   31. Srul Itza Posted: February 18, 2014 at 10:08 PM (#4658802)
You call that troll bait? Only for the thinnest skinned Yankee fans. If you're going to complain about trolling, at least wait for something really inflammatory instead of this run-of-the-mill Pedroia fanboy stuff.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: February 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM (#4658824)
Really #30 -- your objection is more troll-bait-y than the droll post you object to.

Anyhoo ... working with those numbers(which I don't vouch for at all), 35 hits is about 28 runs which is nearly 3 wins in half a career. I suppose since age declines with age that hits lost to "not hustling" also declines (65% of nothing is the same as 100% of nothing). Whether that's worth quibbling about is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.

Jeter's 100+ extra times on-base is about 8 wins over his career. In WAR terms, that's roughly the difference between him and Biggio.

But, yes, that's assuming that Cano's "lack of hustle" and his durability are independent. Cano has takan an average of about 90 games to produce 28 runs. Including lingering effects that's, what, 2 hamstring pulls.

   33. JH (in DC) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:07 AM (#4658832)
McClendon wants Cano to steal bases.


RDF.

That's what confused me about 10. If you remember nothing else from his tenure as Pirates manager, you remember this. (I was going to include the video, but that's apparently very difficult to find...)
   34. bookbook Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:15 AM (#4658833)
35 hits maps to 28 runs? 35 hustle singles? I don't know linear weights, but that seems awfully high. Ichiro has been more valuable than I imagined...
   35. PreservedFish Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:16 AM (#4658834)
The BP article is interesting but all of the analysis is built upon a terrible assumption: that Robinson Cano is of average speed. The author says that this assumption is "safe enough." He then ignores the times that Cano has been clocked at - times to first during close double play grounders, when almost everyone goes as fast as they can, right? - because "he looked like he had a little left in him."

Also, he doesn't try to guess at what Jeter's true running talent is, so bit about Jeter doesn't even address the idea of hustle.

In short, the study does not study hustle in any meaningful way.
   36. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:49 AM (#4658839)
To pick up a point from the earlier Kevin Long-Cano thread, Ben Lindbergh at BP ran the numbers and came up with Cano giving up approximately 35 hits over his career on groundballs if he ran down the line like a 50 grade runner (in line with his scouting reports) instead of like a 40 grade runner (the 4.30 he averaged on double play balls).


The BP article is interesting but all of the analysis is built upon a terrible assumption: that Robinson Cano is of average speed. The author says that this assumption is "safe enough." He then ignores the times that Cano has been clocked at - times to first during close double play grounders, when almost everyone goes as fast as they can, right? - because "he looked like he had a little left in him."

Also, he doesn't try to guess at what Jeter's true running talent is, so bit about Jeter doesn't even address the idea of hustle.

In short, the study does not study hustle in any meaningful way.


All those assumptions hiding behind the BP paywall. Is there even one actual example shown---not "assumed", but visually demonstrable---of Robinson Cano's lack of hustle causing him to be thrown out at first on a close play?
   37. valuearbitrageur Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:53 AM (#4658840)
Long says he believes Jeter spoke to Cano about loafing many times. Cano obviously didn't listen, which makes him Satan Incarnate...


Jeters leadership is so intangible no one has ever seen it.
   38. dejarouehg Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:06 AM (#4658842)
Mostly I wonder where I got the idea that Kevin Long was black
Maybe you confused him with the old Jets running back.

Why is this a big deal? It was Long re-stating the obvious which has been droned about for the last few years. (Not a McClendon fan. Overly hot-headed.)

I understand players giving up stealing bases because that does cause serious wear and tear on your legs. Players, especially power hitters with some speed, routinely do this. BUT, how difficult is it to run 90' 4 times over 3 hours? And (I have no idea what his stats are but he seems like he hit a huge percentage of line drives/balls to outfield,)since Cano seemed to hit the ball in the air so much, I doubt he needed to bust it down the line 4 times in a game too often.

Whatever you want to say about Jeter, he should be lauded for always busting it down the line. More impressive is how hard Piazza run. If any player earns the right to not bust it, it is a catcher. Piazza, at least after he cost the Mets a game early in his NY career by not busting it down the line on a DP ball, always ran hard, to the point that I wondered how he never got hurt landing on 1B so hard.
   39. Cooper Nielson Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:19 AM (#4658855)
As long as you don’t dog it down the line, what’s the difference between 65 and 85 percent? Just run down the line.

So what's the definition of "dogging it," then? 64.9% or less?
   40. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:26 AM (#4658876)
Was Long ever asked about Cano's loafing while Cano was still on the team? And if so, what did Long say then? I think this is only weaselly if he is saying something different now that Cano is in Seattle.
   41. Publius Publicola Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:35 AM (#4658879)
And if so, what did Long say then? I think this is only weaselly if he is saying something different now that Cano is in Seattle.


Cashman: "Kevin, come here. What's the matter with you? I think your brain is going soft with all that comedy you are playing with that veteran SS. Never tell anyone outside the Organization what you are thinking again. Go on."
   42. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:42 AM (#4658882)
On the one hand, I agree that the effort is overrated and mostly for show.

On the other hand, how many players actually pull something by running semi-hard to first base? It seems like a good chunk of the argument is that they player stays healthy. But how many hamstring pulls have actually happened by players running to first*?

*Healthy players, not Ken Griffey, Juan Gonzalez type.
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:49 AM (#4658886)
All those assumptions hiding behind the BP paywall. Is there even one actual example shown---not "assumed", but visually demonstrable---of Robinson Cano's lack of hustle causing him to be thrown out at first on a close play?

Really, can you just stop saying that. Everyone heard you the first 6 times. There's no searchable video library of Robinson Cano's at bats to study.
   44. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:50 AM (#4658887)
But how many hamstring pulls have actually happened by players running to first*?


Not a hamstring pull, but it still happened running to first base.
   45. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:52 AM (#4658888)
Why can't Robinson Cano show more hustle like Nick Swisher?
   46. The TVerik of Lordly Might Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:55 AM (#4658889)
I thoroughly, thoroughly forgot that McLendon is the M's manager now.
   47. The TVerik of Lordly Might Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:13 AM (#4658894)
McClendon said. “I get it. I was a major league player.


Is this a smackdown of Long?

Like when Chris Christie said that in high school, he was student body president and a jock, while his guy at the Port Authority David Wildstein was "doing something else" (subtext: masturbating and Dungeons and Dragons).
   48. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:32 AM (#4658906)
All those assumptions hiding behind the BP paywall. Is there even one actual example shown---not "assumed", but visually demonstrable---of Robinson Cano's lack of hustle causing him to be thrown out at first on a close play?

Really, can you just stop saying that. Everyone heard you the first 6 times.


And how many times have we heard unprovable assertions about the damage caused by Cano's "lack of hustle" running out routine ground balls repeated as fact?

There's no searchable video library of Robinson Cano's at bats to study.

With every MLB game over the course of Cano's career having been televised, the basis for such a library is certainly there for researchers to take advantage of. This isn't the 1950's where 99% of the televised games were never recorded for posterity.

Beyond that, Cano's lack of "hustle" has been the subject of Old School snarking from his rookie year on forward, which coincidentally has also seen the rise of YouTube clips of fans' personal videos. Funny that with all that longstanding motivation to prove that Cano is a slacker on running out routine grounders, we haven't seen any visual evidence of any "loafing" that would show any actual lost hits. It's purely in the realm of assumptions based on estimates based on further assumptions, grounded in little more than an aesthetic preference. It's anecdotal evidence with no visual evidence to back up the anecdotes.
   49. BDC Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:45 AM (#4658911)
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a Cano Loafing app that sends push notifications every time he strolls down to first base :)
   50. tfbg9 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4658921)
There's no online videos of Andy taking his afternoon naps, but we all know he does.
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4658923)
And how many times have we heard unprovable assertions about the damage caused by Cano's "lack of hustle" running out routine ground balls repeated as fact?

It's the law of large numbers. If I guy hits a couple of hundred ground balls a year, for 9 years, and doesn't run out of the box, it has to cost him hits or ROE. No one is perfect in judging whether a ball is a hit or out.
   52. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:12 AM (#4658927)
What I think is more likely than Cano not beating out infield hits is doubles turning into singles. When a guy is in the habit of not running everything out he has to take an extra second to think about it and that is going to cost him. The Swisher video above is perfect. If Swisher is in the habit of running to first when he hits the ball then he isn't out on that play, the catcher scoops it up before it spins fair.

What really gets me though is this is a "skill" that is easily improved. Cano is never going to steal 80 bases so I don't mind that. However, there is no harm, none whatsoever about giving a modicum of effort on batted balls. As I noted yesterday this doesn't make Cano a bad player, I'd take him over virtually every other second baseman in baseball, but it IS a weak part of his game and it is a weak part of his game that is easily corrected.
   53. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:18 AM (#4658928)
I can't wait to see the Seattle media making the same dumb complaints about Cano hustling in four months.
   54. PreservedFish Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4658930)
So, the thing about the BP article is that it does prove something. It shows that vs an average runner, Cano loses something like 3-4 runs per year based on infield hits and ROEs, while Jeter gains something like 3-4 runs per year. How much of that is hustle and how much if it is raw speed and how much of it is variation in the speed and distribution of batted balls and how much is the difference in defensive positioning is probably unknowable without hundreds of hours of video analysis. (Handedness is already accounted for.) But that's probably the absolute upper bound of the difference between the two guys as far as hustle is concerned, 6-8 runs. But of course it would be nuts to ascribe the entirety of the difference to hustle and not to the other factors. So what's our best guess? 2-3 runs?
   55. Ron J2 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:30 AM (#4658931)
#9 I don't think many people understand just how good Cano has been. I've got him already as having cracked the top 10 in peak.

And #2 in peak among active 2B. I'm not finished 2B yet, but I can't imagine anybody I haven't done passing Utley at #6. 39.5 WAR in his 5 best seasons and not very likely to improve on that. It should not surprise anybody that the top 5 by peak are Hornsby, Morgan, Collins, Lajoie and Robinson.
   56. Ron J2 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:49 AM (#4658942)
#32 It also assumes that he doesn't run all out on most plays where hustle can make a difference.

It's a complex issue to study in that specific distribution of groundballs matters, but the way I'd approach this is to find the most similar hitters (most simply looking for LH line hitters with reasonable power and a similar speed score or other proxy for speed) and seeing how they do looking only at groundballs.

I strongly suspect that the numbers that Lindberg came up with are way high -- that the costs of Cano's approach are in the noise.

That said, he does not look to be a very good base runner. Makes a pretty fair number of outs on base while being fairly conservative. Well specifically he goes first to third on a single an unusually low percentage of the time. Put since this is a play that has a very high break even point (north of 90% in some cases) he's not giving up a heck of a lot of runs.
   57. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:50 AM (#4658943)
McClendon doesn't want to put any pressure on Cano to sprint like a lunatic on every ground ball, he just wants him to hit ~.330/28/105 and only miss 2 games per season.

In Seattle, with a park that doesn't exactly play like Yankee Stadium.


I came here to make the same point, although I realize it is nitpicking and I don't disagree with McClendon's overall intent. You want to focus on the guy's positives rather than the negatives, especially if you just signed him to an eleventy billion dollar contract. But yeah, I'd still encourage him to run everything out. I've seen my favorite team miss the playoffs by one game three times in the last 20 years. I know how much of a difference one or a few runs can make.

(Also, for the record, Cano hasn't hit .330 since 2006.)
   58. villageidiom Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:56 AM (#4658950)
With every MLB game over the course of Cano's career having been televised, the basis for such a library is certainly there for researchers to take advantage of.
If they are certainly there, prove it to us by showing us a series of videos in which Robinson Cano gets thrown out at first. They don't have to be cases where he hustled or not, just any videos. (If you're going to repeatedly demand video proof of logical claims, then we can hold you to the same standard.)

In your very easy search for videos of Cano getting thrown out at first, you won't find the video of the precise play Bruce Markusen cited in this very thread, in which Cano gets thrown out at second. But it is available on MLB.com, and can be found using what little information Bruce gave here (2013, vs. White Sox, Cano getting thrown out at second). In that video Cano takes roughly 5.5 seconds* to get from home to first, and 8.7 to get from home to second. That would put him at 11 MPH going to first, and 19 MPH going to second, assuming straight lines.

Going to first obviously he started at 0 MPH, so it should take him longer on that leg. But 5.5 seconds to first is a slow time. Extrapolated to 4 bases it's 22 seconds, which is around the pace of a typical MLB home run trot. And it was a very close play at second, one in which he would easily have been safe had he run faster than that pace for the first 90 feet.

* I had him timed at 5.7 seconds from the moment the ball is hit to the moment he appears on the screen rounding first, but first base is not in the frame at the time. I've fudged it back to 5.5 for fairness. If we use 5.7 seconds as the time to first, then his respective speeds were 10.7 MPH and 20.5 MPH.
   59. tfbg9 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:06 AM (#4658955)
I think those who defend Cano on the grounds of "injury avoidance" are setting up a false choice for his approach to running out ground balls. Its not run like a maniac/jog like you went deep. Cano, instead of jogging, might run at less than an all-out sprint, and thereby eliminate most of the overall harm he does to his team by "loafing", and still avoid costly hammy pulls, etc.
   60. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:15 AM (#4658961)
For a middle IF hustle comparison, Rollins vs. Utley is a great one. Same age, both very athletic players, but the former is well known for taking it easy on soft grounders, while the latter "busts" it every time, and always takes the extra base.

Rollins has been an extraordinarily healthy player for a middle infielder, playing between 154 and 162 games his first 7 years. A bit of a bump after that, but 156 and 160 the last two years at 33 and 34.

Utley has only been in the 150+ range 3 times in 9 years, and the last 4 years: 115, 103, 83, 131.

There is also the case of one Aaron Rowand in Philly, who made one of the all-time great hustle plays, and in the process was injured and basically wrecked as a player.

And now Philly has Abreu back, another notorious loafer (and scaredycat!), who manage to go 150+ for every year from age 24 to age 36.
   61. zonk Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:17 AM (#4658963)
I wasn't a star by any means in my last organized go at baseball -- but I did win the 'Charlie Hustle' award both as a junior and senior and I can tell you that there were most definitely occasions where I lollygagged on base hits... I don't know that I'd call it laziness - though I suppose it's hard to argue if someone wanted to call it precisely that - it was just your run of mill feeling of "sweet, I got good wood on that one, did my job, now I'm gonna coast into first."

A lot depended on the situation, of course... tight game down or up just a run or two? Sure - look for a chance to vulture an extra base or even beat out a bobbled grounder... but in a 6-7-8 run laugher? I'd be thinking "sweet, basehit!" I guess one can argue that Cano is a professional, well-compensated, etc... but still, without spending a weekend literally watching every Cano BIP from the last few years, it's just hard for me to accept that he's anything other than normal. Those crazy Dunston types who tear down the line every time they make contact are the exception, not the norm, and widening that to include someone like Puig - I'm not so sure it doesn't all even out in the end since they tend to run into reckless outs, too.
   62. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4658965)
I think those who defend Cano on the grounds of "injury avoidance" are setting up a false choice for his approach to running out ground balls. Its not run like a maniac/jog like you went deep. Cano, instead of jogging, might run at less than an all-out sprint, and thereby eliminate most of the overall harm he does to his team by "loafing", and still avoid costly hammy pulls, etc.

There's also no evidence that jogging actually prevents injury. It may well be that "loafing" and then having to speed up when something unexpected happens, increases injuries beyond the rate you'd get by simply running moderately hard all the time.
   63. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4658966)
With every MLB game over the course of Cano's career having been televised, the basis for such a library is certainly there for researchers to take advantage of.

If they are certainly there, prove it to us by showing us a series of videos in which Robinson Cano gets thrown out at first. They don't have to be cases where he hustled or not, just any videos. (If you're going to repeatedly demand video proof of logical claims, then we can hold you to the same standard.)


I would think that the person making such an accusation would be obliged to prove his assertion, rather than just throwing out a charge and requiring skeptics to prove a negative. And see below:

In your very easy search for videos of Cano getting thrown out at first, you won't find the video of the precise play Bruce Markusen cited in this very thread, in which Cano gets thrown out at second.

I remember that play at the time, and it wasn't the only one. But unlike the cases of running out routine ground balls, there is a solid case to be made against Cano (and many other players) for assuming a clean fielding play in the outfield, or assuming that a long fly ball will clear the fence. We've all seen plenty of cases of that, and the "loafing" (which there was all too real) was instantly pointed out both in real time and in countless replays. Michael Kay is practically a Professor Emeritus on the subject.

But all I'm saying is that unlike those "stretching" cases, and unlike those premature "home run" trots, there's no corresponding visual evidence that "loafing" on easy and routine ground balls has ever cost Cano even a single base. In the many hundreds of Yankee games I've seen in Cano's career, I've never even heard Professor Kay raise that particular subject.
   64. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4658971)
There's also no evidence that jogging actually prevents injury. It may well be that "loafing" and then having to speed up when something unexpected happens, increases injuries beyond the rate you'd get by simply running moderately hard all the time.

I would think that injuries occurred during running would have much more to do with a player's pre-existing leg health**, or a flukish wrong step***. I doubt if jogging would help or hurt injury prevention.

**In this 1962 game that I can remember as if it were yesterday, Mickey Mantle was straining to avoid being the last out of the ninth inning in a one run game, and went down like he'd been hit with a rifle. It turned out it was "shin splints" that caused him to miss the next 25 games, and while jogging on that specific play might have stayed off the injury for another day or two, that's not the way that any Major League player would have approached that slow rolling dribbler to short. Mickey Mantle was always an injury just waiting to happen.

***See Manny Machado's season-ending injury of 2013, when he awkwardly stepped on the side of first base.
   65. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4658982)
There's also no evidence that jogging actually prevents injury. It may well be that "loafing" and then having to speed up when something unexpected happens, increases injuries beyond the rate you'd get by simply running moderately hard all the time.

The "injury" thing is a pure post hoc fanboy rationalization. Not to mention the fact that there isn't any reason to believe the loafer is loafing to prevent injury -- other than the aformentioned fanboy rationalization.
   66. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:08 PM (#4658987)
Really, can you just stop saying that. Everyone heard you the first 6 times. There's no searchable video library of Robinson Cano's at bats to study.

The funny thing is that Andy professes to watch almost every Yankee game on TV, making his "Where's the video proof?" schtick all the more comical and ludicrous. I watch maybe a couple games a week, multitasking, and you barely have to be paying attention to see Cano loafing. The guy basically never runs hard out of the box, ever, on any ball. (It's obviously no accident that he has 89 doubles, as against a whopping 1 triple, over the past two seasons.)
   67. PreservedFish Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4658989)
This is Kevin Long speaking about Cano:

“But he just wouldn’t make that choice to run hard all the time... He might say his legs didn’t feel good, or he was playing every day and needed to save his energy.’’
   68. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:14 PM (#4658995)
But all I'm saying is that unlike those "stretching" cases, and unlike those premature "home run" trots, there's no corresponding visual evidence that "loafing" on easy and routine ground balls has ever cost Cano even a single base. In the many hundreds of Yankee games I've seen in Cano's career, I've never even heard Professor Kay raise that particular subject.

Oh, Jesus. Kay's a homer shill. He isn't an objective authority on the loafing, but is forced to point it out because it's so egregious and he has no choice. The fact that he actually points out Cano loafing here and there means Cano is an uber-loafer.

There was a thread on this subject last summer (maybe August) wherein Kay had to point out Cano's loafing because it cost him (IIRC) a double. Look it up. I seem to recall you making the same tired arguments then, too. (EDIT: It might have been in that White Sox game discussed upthread.)

If you don't think Cano loafs, you aren't really watching the games and can't possibly be watching them.

   69. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:21 PM (#4659001)
Well specifically he goes first to third on a single an unusually low percentage of the time.

Of course he does -- he's a loafer. He doesn't run hard.

   70. valuearbitrageur Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:28 PM (#4659006)
The guy basically never runs hard out of the box, ever, on any ball


It's obviously no accident that he has 89 doubles, as against a whopping 1 triple, over the past two seasons


It's interesting that a guy who "never runs hard" led the MLB in doubles over the last 2 years.
   71. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4659011)
8.7 to get from home to second.

Which from the LHB batters box is about 59 yards, which translates into a 14.74 100 yard pace. Or, perhaps more incisive, translated into a 40-yard dash speed, we get 5.89 -- basically what a good left tackle can run.

When he's 65 years old.
   72. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4659013)
It's interesting that a guy who "never runs hard" led the MLB in doubles over the last 2 years.

Even chronic loafers can get to second on a ball up the gap. If they weren't chronic loafers, they'd actually get to third a few more times than one.
   73. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:46 PM (#4659024)
If you don't think Cano loafs,

All I've said is that he hasn't cost himself any bases while loafing on routine ground outs. This isn't some cosmic argument beyond that.

you aren't really watching the games and can't possibly be watching them.

Yeah, I'm too busy thinking up new ways to incite race riots and ruin civilization as Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter once knew it. I couldn't possibly be following the Yanks nearly as closely as a baseball scholar such as yourself.

   74. villageidiom Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:02 PM (#4659034)
I would think that the person making such an accusation would be obliged to prove his assertion, rather than just throwing out a charge and requiring skeptics to prove a negative.
As I say, I'm applying the same standard to your accusation that the video of Cano getting thrown out at first is freely available. I shouldn't have to prove the library of video isn't available to me.
   75. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4659039)
All I've said is that he hasn't cost himself any bases while loafing on routine ground outs. This isn't some cosmic argument beyond that.

What's your definition of "routine"?
   76. tfbg9 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4659050)
And Andy, sensing he's losing the argument, brings politics into a baseball thread. Again.

All I've said is that he hasn't cost himself any bases while loafing on routine ground outs.


A guy who NEVER runs hard on these plays, has never cost his team an out? Sure.
And the 2004 ALCS was just another playoff loss.
   77. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4659051)
And Andy, sensing he's losing the argument, brings politics into a baseball thread. Again.

Actually he did that a long time ago, in the other thread when he attributed the charge to white people other than himself resorting to the "Latin loafer" stereotype.

As if costing yourself bases by not running hard on "non-routine" ground balls doesn't make you a loafer: Hey, but at least he never cost himself an out where he'd have to run a 2.0 40 to beat the throw!!!
   78. PreservedFish Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4659061)
All I've said is that he hasn't cost himself any bases while loafing on routine ground outs. This isn't some cosmic argument beyond that.


It seems to me indisputable that a perpetually loafing baserunner would, over time, cost himself bases.

It might only be once a year that the routine grounder to shortstop is half-bobbled in a way that a loafing runner would still get thrown out, and a hustling runner would be safe. But it would happen.
   79. vivaelpujols Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:41 PM (#4659067)
I agree that Long comes off petty in his critiques of Cano.
   80. vivaelpujols Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4659074)
And how many times have we heard unprovable assertions about the damage caused by Cano's "lack of hustle" running out routine ground balls repeated as fact?

There's no searchable video library of Robinson Cano's at bats to study.


I completely agree actually. Whenever you're conducting a study using a new and untested metric (such as the speed score stuff lindbergh did) you should verify it against something concrete and provable before you go plowing on. Whenever I did pitch f/x studies I always verified a couple of the pitches against the live video just to make sure my database wasn't ####### up.
   81. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:49 PM (#4659076)
I agree that Long comes off petty in his critiques of Cano.

That's because you're a strong contender for the title of World's Ultimate Fanboy, and thus can brook no criticism of a player, no matter how true.

It's true that Cano loafs, and there's no reason to think, as Long said, that Long and Jeter didn't try to get him to loaf less.(*) How that narrative reduces to "petty" is barely comprehensible to the non-fanboy brain.

(*) And why wouldn't they? Most coaches and players don't want to coach and play with loafers.
   82. Monty Posted: February 19, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4659086)
Can we stop saying "loafer" and replace it with "lollygagger"?
   83. vivaelpujols Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4659101)
That's because you're a strong contender for the title of World's Ultimate Fanboy, and thus can brook no criticism of a player, no matter how true.


Ha ha? What do I give a #### about some Yankees/Mariners player? I have no problem criticizing players even those that I like, just ask Cardsfanboy. I don't think you actually read who was commenting.
   84. Karl from NY Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4659130)
35 hits maps to 28 runs? 35 hustle singles? I don't know linear weights, but that seems awfully high. Ichiro has been more valuable than I imagined...

This is correct, because the single also importantly avoids the out. As a differential from the start of the PA, a single is worth roughly +0.45 runs while an out is -0.35, for a difference of 0.8.

35 additional singles don't map to 28 runs, but 35 additional singles minus 35 fewer outs do.
   85. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4659137)
I would think that the person making such an accusation would be obliged to prove his assertion, rather than just throwing out a charge and requiring skeptics to prove a negative.

As I say, I'm applying the same standard to your accusation that the video of Cano getting thrown out at first is freely available. I shouldn't have to prove the library of video isn't available to me.


Which leaves it at dueling assertions. That'll work until some positive proof comes along.

-------------------------------------------------

And Andy, sensing he's losing the argument, brings politics into a baseball thread. Again.


Actually he did that a long time ago, in the other thread when he attributed the charge to white people other than himself resorting to the "Latin loafer" stereotype.

Yeah, like I invented that stereotype, and nobody's ever employed it when referring to Robinson Cano, or Roberto Clemente, or.....

-------------------------------------------------

That's because you're a strong contender for the title of World's Ultimate Fanboy, and thus can brook no criticism of a player, no matter how true.

Funny how that doesn't seemed to get aimed at Primates who wear their proud Red Sox credentials in their handle.

-------------------------------------------------

Ha ha? What do I give a #### about some Yankees/Mariners player? I have no problem criticizing players even those that I like, just ask Cardsfanboy. I don't think you actually read who was commenting.

FIFY.

   86. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:38 PM (#4659141)
Funny how that doesn't seemed to get aimed at Primates who wear their proud Red Sox credentials in their handle.


This was based on a comment from a Tigers fan to a Cardinals fan about a former Yankee turned Mariner. Sure, it was all about the Red Sox.
   87. philphan Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4659147)
Ah, Monty, you beat me to it.

You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you?

Robbie Cano, dontcha know!?
   88. vivaelpujols Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4659150)
This was based on a comment from a Tigers fan to a Cardinals fan about a former Yankee turned Mariner. Sure, it was all about the Red Sox.


But what about the Marlins? Everyone always forgets about the Marlins.
   89. gehrig97 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4659152)
McClendon did make an interesting comp between Cano and Strawberry. I vividly remember the press getting on Strawberry for a "lack of hustle." He just never "looked" like he was straining his limits, while lesser lights, with their grimacing and grunting, were called scrappy "Gamers".

Cano never looks like he's exerting himself on the field --and aside from his occasional jogging down the line, this to me seems a direct result of his elite skills and subdued personality (Bernie Williams, if we recall, was hit with the same criticism). Cano's "lackadaisical", sidearm throws to first look like they come from a guy who couldn't care less about where the ball was going or when it got there. He throws from absurd angles with astonishing accuracy and velocity (for a 2b), and always gets his man... but he never rushes it, never seems to have a sense of urgency. So he's "lazy". Cano punctuates amazing plays with all the enthusiasm of a guy ordering a cup of coffee, he "dogs it." If he clenched his teeth and his fist every once in a while a la Pedroia, he'd be a "gamer."
   90. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: February 19, 2014 at 03:27 PM (#4659192)
Note to the moderators: You realize you can (and should) ban people who post nothing but troll-bait. Right?

Note to the world: You realize you can (and should) use the ignore feature people who post nothing but troll-bait. Right?
   91. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 03:35 PM (#4659200)
Yeah, like I invented that stereotype, and nobody's ever employed it when referring to Robinson Cano, or Roberto Clemente, or.....

Earth to Andy: Roberto Clemente died -- not played, died -- 42 years ago. He's old enough to be Robinson Cano's grandfather.

Robinson Cano loafs -- and lollygags. He loafs and lollygags so much, his loafs have lollygags. That conclusion has literally nothing to do with his race.

And, no I'm not saying this because I'm "biased" or "privileged" by my whiteness; I'm saying it because he's one of the loafiest lollygaggers who's ever lollygagged. Deal with it. Don't apply a bunch of irrelevant aging lefty jargon or templates to it. Just deal with it. And stop projecting -- your inability to speak or see the truth because of race is your hangup, not other people's.

   92. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4659208)
Hey, I'm as least as lazy as I am white. And I am white, rest assured.
   93. Jason Michael(s) Bourn Identity Crisis Posted: February 19, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4659210)
I'd have been very happy if my team had gotten lazy Cano and not noted hustler Ian "Captain Popup" Kinsler.
   94. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 19, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4659218)
Roberto Clemente died -- not played, died -- 42 years ago.


To be fair, he both played AND died 42 years ago.
   95. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 19, 2014 at 03:54 PM (#4659219)
I'd have been very happy if my team had gotten lazy Cano and not noted hustler Ian "Captain Popup" Kinsler.

Adjusted for the contracts, I'll take Kinsler.
   96. spike Posted: February 19, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4659229)
Running at all times is deemed necessary by some to preserve the fiction of athletic meritocracy as well as reinforce the Protestant Work Ethic regardless of actual value achieved by doing so. Like taking a called strike three, perceived lack of effort, regardless of ROI, just bugs the crap out of some folks, and there is no denying it. The notion is that it's a cancerous influence on non-stars as well as arrogance on the part of the athlete and an insult to the fans. Kind of a bucolic view of a game that that was in all actuality never played the way some have memorialized it.

Personally, I would love to have Cano's production on my team, loafs and all.
   97. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 19, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4659235)
Running at all times is deemed necessary by some to preserve the fiction of athletic meritocracy as well as reinforce the Protestant Work Ethic regardless of actual value achieved by doing so. Like taking a called strike three, perceived lack of effort, regardless of ROI, just bugs the crap out of some folks, and there is no denying it. The notion is that it's a cancerous influence on non-stars as well as arrogance on the part of the athlete and an insult to the fans. Kind of a bucolic view of a game that that was in all actuality never played the way some have memorialized it.

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda -- more lefty overthinking and deconstruction and lame endeavor to attribute non-existent thoughts to people other than themselves. Running at all times has nothing to do with "athletic meritocracy" or the "Protestant Work Ethic" -- whatever the hell that is -- and neither you nor I know a soul who's actually compared running and those things.

Running at all times helps avoid outs and gain bases -- it's that simple. It isn't work for work's sake, it's work for baseball value's sake.(*)

On the wider issue -- the insistence on politicizing everything -- the better approach would be to fix (the long list of) your own hangups and blind spots, and only upon completing that strenuous project, move on to worrying about other peoples'.

(*) It also shows a devotion and dedication to craft that could be useful in projecting how an older player with a 10-year contract will produce in the out years, but that's another matter.
   98. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 19, 2014 at 04:20 PM (#4659237)
Hey, I'm as least as lazy as I am white. And I am white, rest assured.

I always took my cue from a line in Bobby Womack's "The Preacher"----"I never did believe in working a real hard job".
   99. Brian Posted: February 19, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4659264)
Under the heading of "Back in my day":

When did most playyers, not just known lollygaggers like Cano, stop running hard to second on doubles? The answer may be 1900 but it sure seems to me that players used to actually round second hard and watch the throw before heading back to second. I see a lot of guys hitting the brakes as they round first and cruising, the last steps actually walking, into second base. The ball is rolling around for chrissakes, run! Then when the throw gets away some of them make a head fake to third. Most don't even bother.

Kids these days ....
   100. theboyqueen Posted: February 19, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4659274)
Where does the lazy Latino stereotype even come from? I am a physician who sees poor patients of all races and ethnicity. Latinos where I am (northern California) are easily the hardest-working, most industrious, pious, family-oriented group of any group I deal with (if one must generalize about such things). This is particularly true of the first-generation undocumented, who risk their lives to come here, constantly manage to find work and make ends meet no matter how poor the economy happens to be (I am not sure I have ever met a homeless Latino), pay taxes, and receive little-to-no public service in exchange. They do all this so their children can be educated in the United States, and for no other obvious reason. They are in stable marriages and almost always highly involved in religious practice. Their children are well-behaved. They are the actual embodiment of all the "family-values" and "up from the bootstraps" rhetoric espoused by the people who like to espouse such things. They also tend to be remarkably healthy.

I grant that Latino is a very broad category and that our population, generally from Mexico or central America, is a tiny slice of this.

I would, however, contrast this with poor whites and blacks who often seem to be stuck in a multi-generational cycle of poverty, disability/unemployment, substance abuse (particularly meth), legal troubles, and existential pessimism. I would ascribe none of what I am saying to individual character (and certainly not racial nor ethnic) traits and would expect that social factors explain all of these differences.
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